591 replies to this topic

[slotrite]

The Linus Pauling protocol has no effect on arterial plaque according to the Track My Plaque bloggers. These people get calcium scores and then try different substances then they get another calcium score and compare results. There are tens of thousand of respondents.

[pamojja]

The Linus Pauling protocol has no effect on arterial plaque according to the Track My Plaque bloggers. These people get calcium scores and then try different substances then they get another calcium score and compare results. There are tens of thousand of respondents.

 

Dr. Davis admitted that he never tested vitamin C and lysine - not to talk of the whole Pauling protocol in toto - for any substantial time. I've been member of TrackYourPlaque for a couple of years, and I had wonderful results. The owner of http://www.k-vitamins.com/ - still active on TrackYourPlaque forum - uses Pauling's therapy too. He is one of a very few who have confirmed reduction of CAC-score for many years now. Though certainly not most, there have been many others on TrackYourPlauque using Pauling's therapy.

 

But I have to disillusion you, there aren't tens of thousand of respondents. When I was still member in 2012 there were about 3000 members of the forum, and as usual only a tiny minority actively posting. TrackYourPlaque was converted into https://www.cureality.com/, and is less active nowadays. Still a forum for a member fee, but apparently now with 1 paid writer to keep content coming.

Edited by pamojja, 26 July 2017 - 06:28 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

 

It's really a waste of time getting a calcium score prior to taking vitamin K2. It's proven that K2 can reverse calcification of soft tissue, so go ahead and take it. What the hell do you have to lose besides a few pennies a month, it's a vitamin! After a couple of months you could get a calcium score done to see if you are taking enough (because some get side-effects at low dosages).

 

As for my 71 year old relative, his blood pressure is down from 170-190 systolic to approx. 130 (can go a little bit lower at around 120 but it swings around 120-135, average is around 130) from taking simple supplements that lower lipoprotein(a), as I have already explained exhaustively. Some other user did not respond to the same supplement mix but who cares when a majority who take this combo do get better.

 

There is no excuse not to take the linus pauling combo with nicotinic acid, carnitine and a few other things. I'd go ahead and say that high dose niacin (nicotinic acid) and carnitine, 3-4g of each, is much more superior to any other combo, but I'm going off from mere assumption based upon what I've noticed.

 

I'm hoping that the vitamin k2 my 71 relative started not long ago will be the final nail in the coffin for his arterial plaque.

 

 

How the hell will you know if the K2 is helping if you don't have before and after score?

 

 

After three years of taking 500+ mcg of vitamin K2 (MK-7) my carotid and coronary plaque scores had slightly increased. If the K2 did ANYTHING it might have slowed the progression, but it did not reverse the plaque scores, even at that daily high dose, combined with its required nutrient partners vitamin A and vitamin D.

 

I have studied K2 extensively and conversed with the Maastrickt University team that has been studying K2 for a dozen years and was quite surprised to find that the "after" scans did not show any progress in reversing plaque.

 

The only thing that produced a clear effect, that of lowing of blood pressure significantly, was taking Dasatinib with quercitin, to remove senescent cells. Two exposures to DQ and within a couple of weeks my blood pressure dropped from what could be a high of about 140-150/80-100 to 100-120/60-75, like a 20-year old's.

 

Even during times when I would normally expect my BP to be high, such as after a stressful day, I would measure my BP and find that it was maybe 115/65. This happened consistently for a couple of months.  

 

This was QUITE noticeable, as my BP had been gradually rising over some years.

 

This lasted for about 60 days and then there has been a gradual increase again, but it still hasn't reached the highs that were frequently what I encountered before I used DQ.

 

DQ apparently got rid of sensescent cells in the endothelial lining of my arteries and so the endothelium was able to regenerate with new "young" cells. Thus, arterial flexibility improved tremendously, which showed itself as much lower BP.

 

I haven't used DQ again, because it did cause some facial fat loss, such that I have a line on my face that was not there before and I do not want more loss of facial fat tissue. 

 

I also did not re-do coronary and carotid scans yet.

 

As far as therapies to regenerate everything via clearing senescent cells we will see the emergence of side-effect free therapies, that don't have the potential adverse effects that DQ does.

 

As to single molecules that have some role in arterial health, I have done and am doing many of them from niacin to acetyl L-carnitine to K2 (MK-7). Several of them do have some beneficial effects. But none of them do enough.

 

I figure that if I wait until FOXO4-DRI becomes more available/less costly, I will use that to clear senescent cells globally, without the side-effects of DQ. 

 

That is when we will have the opportunity to regenerate a fresh new arterial system.

 

 

 

Mikey,

 

If your CAC scores only slightly increased over a few years, you actually did something very useful with the K2.  Would you be willing to post your dated CAC scores along with what you were talking at the time.  That would be invaluable to the rest of us.

 

-Dan

[Daniel Cooper]

BTW guys - I really think that cyclodextrin is probably our best bet for actually doing something really substantial about atherosclerosis.  If we let this worm it's way through the FDA some of us are going to be dead from heart disease before anything pops out, if it ever does.  There's a $13B statin industry up against an unpatentable drug that will likely reverse the disease. We've got to figure out a way to make this happen outside the FDA.

 

 

 

[pamojja]

We've got to figure out a way to make this happen ..

 

What you may oversee is that most need differently aggressive regimens. Just as I and the owner of k-vitamins needed massive amounts of nutrients to make it happen - for example Dr. Davis himself is fine with some D3, K2, fish oil, a little iodine and thyroid replacement, along with diet changes only.

 

Therefore 'we' can't figure it out on an individual level. You have to do it yourself by testing various regimens to and monitoring your progress. Anything else is waisting time one might not have. And even if successful, with no guarantee it would work for any other.

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 26 July 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Calcium score is not the same as plaque in atherosclerosis. Calcium score refers to arterial calcification, which stiffens the arteries potentially increasing pulse and blood pressure, and plaque refers to the substance builds up within the artery walls that narrows the arteries, increasing blood pressure.

Supposedly calcium can bind to arterial plaque, preventing the removal of plaque. So the order of treatment is arterial calcification > arterial plaque.

Vitamin K2 does not reverse plaque but it does reverse arterial calcification in most people - it's scientifically proven.

Linus Pauling therapy is not supposed to reverse arterial calcification, though some proponents of it claims (perhaps because Linus claimed) that it may reduce arterial stiffness.

 

Some of you people whine and whine when all you need to do is just take the supplements and in most cases your worries will be over. Often the issues you think are so dooming are not. It's sad that people will forego trying solutions to diseases that can kill them. When you're dead you can't spend those money you got, better make use of them while you're alive. No excuse not to try.

[pamojja]

Calcium score is not the same as plaque in atherosclerosis.

 

Pretty consistently about 20% of plaque is calcified. Therefore it does quantify risks. The more, the higher the risk of an adverse event. With a CAC score of zero impossible to have an adverse event.
 

[Daniel Cooper]

 

We've got to figure out a way to make this happen ..

 

What you may oversee is that most need differently aggressive regimens. Just as I and the owner of k-vitamins needed massive amounts of nutrients to make it happen - for example Dr. Davis himself is fine with some D3, K2, fish oil, a little iodine and thyroid replacement, along with diet changes only.

 

Therefore 'we' can't figure it out on an individual level. You have to do it yourself by testing various regimens to and monitoring your progress. Anything else is waisting time one might not have. And even if successful, with no guarantee it would work for any other.

 

 

 

You really need to look at the animal studies on atherosclerosis and the human studies regarding Niemann Pick disease on cyclodextin.  When it comes to soft cholesterol plaques, this compound may be as closest to a silver bullet as you could hope to find.   It does two remarkable things, it reprograms foam cells to revert to normal macrophages which is probably the greatest underlying pathology in atherosclerosis, and it solublizes cholesterol and moves it out of the plaque.  It really is a remarkable mechanism and I believe it basically has the potential to be a general solution to soft plaques.  Now, hard calcified plaques we really don't know what the long term prospect of those are once you remove the surround soft plaques.

 

And yes, you do need rigorous testing to prove all this.  The problem is that the drug companies have little to no interest.  There is no patent for cyclodextrin hanging out there in the future.  At best you might get a "use patent" which isn't nearly as strong.  The drug companies currently make $13B a year selling statins.  It's hard to see their motivation to cannibalize that business for something that has a weak use patent.

 

Oral administration of this compound is problematic as only about 6% makes it through the gut into the bloodstream.  Self experimentation is a lot less attractive for most people if they have to subcutaneous or IV administration.  

 

But, if you've got serious cardiovascular disease and want to avoid a heart attack or bypass, this may be your best bet.  

[pamojja]

But, if you've got serious cardiovascular disease and want to avoid a heart attack or bypass, this may be your best bet. 

 

You obviously haven't read my story!

 

I did suffer a serious peripheral arterial disease with a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta, and a 60% walking-disability due to that. I consistently followed a very extensive regimen, which reversed that disability and already had remission with purely and time-tested natural remedies.

 

http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/

 

No thanks to research chemicals and their magical-pill thinking, in that symptom-removal could ever touch the causes of disease.

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 26 July 2017 - 09:33 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

But, if you've got serious cardiovascular disease and want to avoid a heart attack or bypass, this may be your best bet. 

 

You obviously haven't read my story!

 

I did suffer a serious peripheral arterial disease with a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta, and a 60% walking-disability due to that. I consistently followed a very extensive regimen, which reversed that disability and already had remission with purely and time-tested natural remedies.

 

http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/

 

No thanks to research chemicals and their magical-pill thinking, in that symptom-removal could ever touch the causes of disease.

 

 

I'm glad you've had positive results, but you're no doubt aware that there are many people on track your plaque that have tried Pauling therapy and gotten zero results?

 

You've got a lot of data in your story, it will take awhile to digest.  I have to say you might win some sort of prize for taking the most number of supplements per day.  Glad it worked for you.  However, whenever I see someone taking such a large laundry list of supplements, I have to believe that if they helped, it was some subset of that list that was actually effective.  Would be nice to know which ones were useful and which ones were superfluous.

 

After I have time to read through this I may have some questions if you don't mind answering.

 

BTW - Cyclodextrin is not an exotic research chemical.  It's a widely used food additive that is on the FDA GRAS list.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 26 July 2017 - 09:53 PM.

[pamojja]

I'm glad you've had positive results, but you're no doubt aware that there are many people on track your plaque that have tried Pauling therapy and gotten zero results?

 

I've been member of TrackYourPlaque and those few who indeed followed Pauling's therapy there had good results. Of course there were other members who never tried and got zero results.

 

 

The Linus Pauling protocol has no effect on arterial plaque according to the Track My Plaque bloggers. These people get calcium scores and then try different substances then they get another calcium score and compare results. There are tens of thousand of respondents.

 

Dr. Davis admitted that he never tested vitamin C and lysine - not to talk of the whole Pauling protocol in toto - for any substantial time. I've been member of TrackYourPlaque for a couple of years, and I had wonderful results. The owner of http://www.k-vitamins.com/ - still active on TrackYourPlaque forum - uses Pauling's therapy too. He is one of a very few who have confirmed reduction of CAC-score for many years now. Though certainly not most, there have been many others on TrackYourPlauque using Pauling's therapy.

 

But I have to disillusion you, there aren't tens of thousand of respondents. When I was still member in 2012 there were about 3000 members of the forum, and as usual only a tiny minority actively posting. TrackYourPlaque was converted into https://www.cureality.com/, and is less active nowadays. Still a forum for a member fee, but apparently now with 1 paid writer to keep content coming.

[Daniel Cooper]

I was formally a member of Track Your Plaque but let it lapse.  My recollection is that there were several members who had tried it but had no positive results.  Perhaps I've misremembered.

 

I'll be honest with you, I've not looked seriously into the Pauling protocol because the levels of vitamin C he prescribes are just so far above what any human ever normally got in their diet.  I'm guessing you had gut tolerance issues at the levels you were taking?  Any issues with kidney stones?  How long have you been doing this?

 

Have there been any clinical studies on the Pauling protocol for CVD or PAD?

 

Hey, it's hard to argue with success.  I'll look into it more thoroughly.

[pamojja]

Dr. Davis told he tried it on a number of patient without results. When asked further it turned out only for very short and not the whole protocol.

 

I was formally a member of Track Your Plaque but let it lapse.  My recollection is that there were several members who had tried it but had no positive results.  Perhaps I've misremembered.

 

I'll be honest with you, I've not looked seriously into the Pauling protocol because the levels of vitamin C he prescribes are just so far above what any human ever normally got in their diet.  I'm guessing you had gut tolerance issues at the levels you were taking?  Any issues with kidney stones?  How long have you been doing this?

 

Have there been any clinical studies on the Pauling protocol for CVD or PAD?

 

Hey, it's hard to argue with success.  I'll look into it more thoroughly.

 

There will never be double-blind studies on Pauling protocol with so many ingredients, nor vitamin C alone, since it never will pay-back the study-costs with non-patentable compounds. There have been loads of other studies. An old collection here: https://www.seanet.c...lexs/ascorbate/

 

Pauling argued the amount he recommends is what almost every same-weighted animal was endogenously producing in good health, considering the loss through oral administration. Much more with illness. My bowel tolerance when tested years ago, has been up to 50 g per day. More about bowel tolerance see here: https://vitamincfoun...com/titrate.htm

 

The reality about kidney stones and ascorbic acid take a look here: http://www.doctoryou...com/kidney.html

 

Almost 9 years.

[mikey]

 

How the hell will you know if the K2 is helping if you don't have before and after score?

 
After three years of taking 500+ mcg of vitamin K2 (MK-7) my carotid and coronary plaque scores had slightly increased. If the K2 did ANYTHING it might have slowed the progression, but it did not reverse the plaque scores, even at that daily high dose, combined with its required nutrient partners vitamin A and vitamin D.
 
I have studied K2 extensively and conversed with the Maastrickt University team that has been studying K2 for a dozen years and was quite surprised to find that the "after" scans did not show any progress in reversing plaque.

 
Dr. William Davis experience with CAC scoring was, that usually - even while on statins - plaque grows in average by 30% a year nevertheless. Which becomes an exponential growth over the years, and therefore an almost sure death-sentence.
 
With applying multiple strategies - not only high dose K2 - plaque growth decelerates. But with most patients still above 15% yearly plaque growth during the first year. Below 15% yearly growth, according to the clinical experience of Dr. Davis, averse events become very unlikely. He said he hasn't seen even one while practicing. On his old TrackYourPlauque forum many accomplished deceleration, but very few reversal of CAC score with multiple strategies.
 
How much yearly progression did you have with K2 alone?
 

What I'm really worried about is wasting time, which is my most precious commodity.

 
With a serious PAD, like me, or a MI like you, one indeed does not have the time to hesitate and not do everything one can against the usual exponential plaque-growth. And sure death-sentence.

 

 

Progression was about 10%. The doctor, Dr. Richard Taw of Santa Monica,is probably the most brilliant cardiologist that I have ever spoken with. He was both fluent in the literature, but had been an active participant in numerous clinical trials over many years.

 

However, in the end he was only advocating a whole-food, plant-based diet ALA The China Study, which many of you know as the vegan "Bible."

 

I found, memory tells me, about six errors in the first 20 pages of the China Study, so Dr. Taw and I were at odds to our approaches, as the entire book, The China Study, is based on errors that are revealed early in its pages.

 

(Note also that when Dr. Winson Price traveled around the world investigating cultures that hadn't been polluted by "modern" agriculture that were quite healthy and found NO vegetarian societies.) 

 

Further, Dr. Taw was honestly surprised that in spite of my high-fat, high cholesterol diet a True Health Diagnostics complex lab test showed outstanding numbers. He was also honestly humble enough to say, "Well, we just don't know." Then he gave more details about the range of what may be, with the note that even though I had measurable plaque, my risk of a CVD event was only about 10% more than for someone that is typically my age. I am 64.

 

(I eat a low carb, organic plant food, high-fat, moderate protein diet that includes animal fats. The fats that I consume are generally a carefully-considered balance of polyunsaturates so that my omega-3-6-9 balance is controlled, with the addition of saturates as high cholesterol, organic grass-fed butters, cheeses and eggs. Yum!)

 

So, where my conventional cardiologist would flag alarm bells at me and tell me that I must start taking some drugs because of the plaque, (he wanted me to take statins until the THD test showed that my total cholesterol was 132) Dr. Taw was honest with me and agreed that I was an outlier, where the supposed "rules" don't necessarily apply.

 

If anyone wants to read the statements of the numerous researchers that have debunked the China Study, I suggest that you start with this Google search page:

https://www.google.c...chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

As I said, after doing two doses of Dasitinib and quercitin, my blood pressure decreased considerably, so while I continue to take many supplements for CV health, I look forward to using what appears to be the most potent tool, getting rid of sensescent cells, when a treatment that doesn't cause side-effects is available.

[mikey]

 

 

 

It's really a waste of time getting a calcium score prior to taking vitamin K2. It's proven that K2 can reverse calcification of soft tissue, so go ahead and take it. What the hell do you have to lose besides a few pennies a month, it's a vitamin! After a couple of months you could get a calcium score done to see if you are taking enough (because some get side-effects at low dosages).

 

As for my 71 year old relative, his blood pressure is down from 170-190 systolic to approx. 130 (can go a little bit lower at around 120 but it swings around 120-135, average is around 130) from taking simple supplements that lower lipoprotein(a), as I have already explained exhaustively. Some other user did not respond to the same supplement mix but who cares when a majority who take this combo do get better.

 

There is no excuse not to take the linus pauling combo with nicotinic acid, carnitine and a few other things. I'd go ahead and say that high dose niacin (nicotinic acid) and carnitine, 3-4g of each, is much more superior to any other combo, but I'm going off from mere assumption based upon what I've noticed.

 

I'm hoping that the vitamin k2 my 71 relative started not long ago will be the final nail in the coffin for his arterial plaque.

 

 

How the hell will you know if the K2 is helping if you don't have before and after score?

 

 

After three years of taking 500+ mcg of vitamin K2 (MK-7) my carotid and coronary plaque scores had slightly increased. If the K2 did ANYTHING it might have slowed the progression, but it did not reverse the plaque scores, even at that daily high dose, combined with its required nutrient partners vitamin A and vitamin D.

 

I have studied K2 extensively and conversed with the Maastrickt University team that has been studying K2 for a dozen years and was quite surprised to find that the "after" scans did not show any progress in reversing plaque.

 

The only thing that produced a clear effect, that of lowing of blood pressure significantly, was taking Dasatinib with quercitin, to remove senescent cells. Two exposures to DQ and within a couple of weeks my blood pressure dropped from what could be a high of about 140-150/80-100 to 100-120/60-75, like a 20-year old's.

 

Even during times when I would normally expect my BP to be high, such as after a stressful day, I would measure my BP and find that it was maybe 115/65. This happened consistently for a couple of months.  

 

This was QUITE noticeable, as my BP had been gradually rising over some years.

 

This lasted for about 60 days and then there has been a gradual increase again, but it still hasn't reached the highs that were frequently what I encountered before I used DQ.

 

DQ apparently got rid of sensescent cells in the endothelial lining of my arteries and so the endothelium was able to regenerate with new "young" cells. Thus, arterial flexibility improved tremendously, which showed itself as much lower BP.

 

I haven't used DQ again, because it did cause some facial fat loss, such that I have a line on my face that was not there before and I do not want more loss of facial fat tissue. 

 

I also did not re-do coronary and carotid scans yet.

 

As far as therapies to regenerate everything via clearing senescent cells we will see the emergence of side-effect free therapies, that don't have the potential adverse effects that DQ does.

 

As to single molecules that have some role in arterial health, I have done and am doing many of them from niacin to acetyl L-carnitine to K2 (MK-7). Several of them do have some beneficial effects. But none of them do enough.

 

I figure that if I wait until FOXO4-DRI becomes more available/less costly, I will use that to clear senescent cells globally, without the side-effects of DQ. 

 

That is when we will have the opportunity to regenerate a fresh new arterial system.

 

 

 

Mikey,

 

If your CAC scores only slightly increased over a few years, you actually did something very useful with the K2.  Would you be willing to post your dated CAC scores along with what you were talking at the time.  That would be invaluable to the rest of us.

 

-Dan

 

 

Hello Dan,

 

What you're saying is that the K2 may have reduced the normal progression. I hadn't considered this, but it is interesting.

 

I'm flooded with trying to get a new business running, as well as attending to helping a friend that just found out they have lung cancer. Also, my assistant that took care of details here bought land in Oregon and is in the middle of moving so I have no help in my office. I will find time to pull the scans and post them, but it may take me a little while.

[Daniel Cooper]

Hello Dan,

 

What you're saying is that the K2 may have reduced the normal progression. I hadn't considered this, but it is interesting.

 

I'm flooded with trying to get a new business running, as well as attending to helping a friend that just found out they have lung cancer. Also, my assistant that took care of details here bought land in Oregon and is in the middle of moving so I have no help in my office. I will find time to pull the scans and post them, but it may take me a little while.

 

 

Mikey,

 

The normal progression of CAC scores is about 20% per year.  If you only progressed 10% in 3 year (i.e. 3.3% per year) you are definitely doing something right.

 

Davis says that when you decelerate CAC progression that dramatically your chances of a cardiovascular event go way down.

 

Do you off the top of your head remember what your score was when you started and what it is now?

 

-Dan

 

 

[pamojja]

 

 Dr. William Davis experience with CAC scoring was, that usually - even while on statins - plaque grows in average by 30% a year nevertheless. Which becomes an exponential growth over the years, and therefore an almost sure death-sentence.
 
With applying multiple strategies - not only high dose K2 - plaque growth decelerates. But with most patients still above 15% yearly plaque growth during the first year. Below 15% yearly growth, according to the clinical experience of Dr. Davis, averse events become very unlikely. He said he hasn't seen even one while practicing. On his old TrackYourPlauque forum many accomplished deceleration, but very few reversal of CAC score with multiple strategies.
 
How much yearly progression did you have with K2 alone?

 

Progression was about 10%. ...

 

(I eat a low carb, organic plant food, high-fat, moderate protein diet that includes animal fats. The fats that I consume are generally a carefully-considered balance of polyunsaturates so that my omega-3-6-9 balance is controlled, with the addition of saturates as high cholesterol, organic grass-fed butters, cheeses and eggs. Yum!)

 

At TrackYourPlaque we would always celebrate a deceleration to 10% growth. Congratulations!

Was that yearly growth? Otherwise even the better.

 

By the way, your diet is very close to TYP diet. So one more synergy to vitamin K2.
 

Edited by pamojja, 26 July 2017 - 11:05 PM.

[pamojja]

The normal progression of CAC scores is about 20% per year.

 

From Dr. Davis TrackYourPlaque_2nd edition ebook:

 

 

Like a weed in your garden, coronary plaque can grow rapidly.
With growth unchecked, plaque scores increase, on average, at a
rate of 30–35% per year (Janowitz 1991; Maher 1999; Budoff 2000;
Raggi 2005). A starting score of 100 will become 130, 169, 220, 286,
371, . . . kaboom!!!

 

[mikey]

 

Hello Dan,

 

What you're saying is that the K2 may have reduced the normal progression. I hadn't considered this, but it is interesting.

 

I'm flooded with trying to get a new business running, as well as attending to helping a friend that just found out they have lung cancer. Also, my assistant that took care of details here bought land in Oregon and is in the middle of moving so I have no help in my office. I will find time to pull the scans and post them, but it may take me a little while.

 

 

Mikey,

 

The normal progression of CAC scores is about 20% per year.  If you only progressed 10% in 3 year (i.e. 3.3% per year) you are definitely doing something right.

 

Davis says that when you decelerate CAC progression that dramatically your chances of a cardiovascular event go way down.

 

Do you off the top of your head remember what your score was when you started and what it is now?

 

-Dan

 

 

 

 

Aha. This makes it more interesting. Once I am more caught up tonight I will dig into my files to look for before and after scans.

 

Thank you, Dan.

[zorba990]

From Wikipedia it appears that cyclodextrins are already food approved as fiber in the EU, so why not just make some Liposomal version as a fiber supplement?

https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Cyclodextrin

"Multifunctional dietary fiber
α-Cyclodextrin has been authorized for use as a dietary fiber in the European Union since 2008.[6] In 2013 the EU commission has verified a health claim for alpha-cyclodextrin. The EU assessment report confirms that consumption of alpha-cyclodextrin can reduce blood sugar peaks following a high-starch meal.[7] Weight loss supplements are marketed from alpha-cyclodextrin which claim to bind to fat and be an alternative to other anti-obesity medications.[8][9]

Due to its surface-active properties, α-cyclodextrin can also be used as emulsifying fiber, for example, in mayonnaise as well as a whipping aid, for example, in desserts and confectionery applications."

[Daniel Cooper]

From Wikipedia it appears that cyclodextrins are already food approved as fiber in the EU, so why not just make some Liposomal version as a fiber supplement?

https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Cyclodextrin

"Multifunctional dietary fiber
α-Cyclodextrin has been authorized for use as a dietary fiber in the European Union since 2008.[6] In 2013 the EU commission has verified a health claim for alpha-cyclodextrin. The EU assessment report confirms that consumption of alpha-cyclodextrin can reduce blood sugar peaks following a high-starch meal.[7] Weight loss supplements are marketed from alpha-cyclodextrin which claim to bind to fat and be an alternative to other anti-obesity medications.[8][9]

Due to its surface-active properties, α-cyclodextrin can also be used as emulsifying fiber, for example, in mayonnaise as well as a whipping aid, for example, in desserts and confectionery applications."

 

It's actually the beta form that we want. It is on the US FDA list of "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) food additives.

 

I've been working on this tonight and found two studies that I hadn't seen before.

 

The first tested 6g of CD in humans to measure the effect on blood lipids, which isn't exactly what we're going for but it did establish safety at that level of oral administration.

 

The second study measured the anti-artherosclerosis effect of beta CD in mice, also via oral administration.

 

I'm starting to believe that you might get enough plasma concentration via oral administration with no worries about ototoxicity or other issues.

 

After I've had some time to go through these papers I'll post something.

[Daniel Cooper]

BTW guys - I've seen a couple of reference in media articles on cyclodextrin and atherosclerosis that implied that clinical trials were either underway or imminent, but I haven't been able to find any hard references to these trials.

 

Anyone out there better at finding these sorts of things than me?

 

 

 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Are people really so numbskulled? What does it matter if the dietary need for a vitamin is 15mg when taking 1g can reverse a disease? Chemicals are chemicals.

Just try the freaking Pauling therapy, otherwise your issues are certainly not worth taking seriously. You should be desperate to try anything. Why are you fantasizing about some stupid drug cyclodextrin reversing your disease when it already can be reversed with cheap and very safe vitamins?

Edited by PeaceAndProsperity, 27 July 2017 - 05:06 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Well Peace, I'll certainly take your post and give it the consideration it properly deserves.

 

 

 

[PWAIN]

Daniel, sorry so slow in getting back to you. I have only used cyclodextrin intermittently so far but am planning to start using it regularly soon.

Nothing much to report, no negatives with up to 3 x 00 capsules at a time. I'm trying to take it such that it doesn't interfere with anything else I take. Probably take it in the morning. Not sure I'd expect much with the intermittent dosing I've done so far but I normally don't feel the effect of most medications.

I've had some issues with my second purchase of cyclodextrin in that the shipping has been messed up. I believe that Australia post most likely screwed up, they said it was delivered but it never actually arrived even tho other unrelated parcels arrived on the same day it was supposed to be delivered. I would like a bigger supply before I go heavy on this stuff.

[PWAIN]

PeaceAndProsperity, perhaps consider other people's circumstances may be different from your own.

I have found that when I take k2 or vit c, I get pain in my kidneys. If I take more, even my liver hurts. I am currently just taking it when I can, not too often so as to avoid the issue. I'm not going to kill my kidneys to maybe save my heart.

So far I have not had any problems when taking cyclodextrin. There also appears to be better independent evidence for cyclo than the other 2. I not much on stories of how someone was cured but there is no evidence or it is one off, not part of properly controlled and run trial. Too much BS out there.

[pamojja]

I was formally a member of Track Your Plaque but let it lapse.  My recollection is that there were several members who had tried it but had no positive results.  Perhaps I've misremembered.

 

What were your experiences with implementing TYP strategies? How long did you try?

 

 

You've got a lot of data in your story, it will take awhile to digest.  I have to say you might win some sort of prize for taking the most number of supplements per day.  Glad it worked for you.  However, whenever I see someone taking such a large laundry list of supplements, I have to believe that if they helped, it was some subset of that list that was actually effective.

 

One thing which impressed me greatly at the beginning of my health journey and starting to learn about nutrition was a video (can't find now) which demonstrated the difference between industrialized and traditional diets of long living cultures, in their difference in variation. While the former only contains a few dozen, the later contained hundreds of different species. Each with hundreds of different phyto-chemicals again. Therefore I'm definitely not worthy your price, compared to what some traditional cultures accomplished without even a second thought.

 

Or the ancient Ayurvedic story of a to be physician, who at his final exam was asked to find just one plant without medical properties in a radius of a mile around that place. He couldn't find one and thereby succeeded with his examination.

 

Why is the concept of synergy so difficult to grasp nowadays? And the concept of 1 pill taking away your symptoms so grasped at?

 

Even though it's the most obvious with arterial plaque that it forms after many years of various insults to the arterial wall, and only to protect it? Why not first look into how to avoid and ameliorate such insult in the first place?

Edited by pamojja, 27 July 2017 - 11:28 AM.

[ServousNystem]

Relevant: 

Petroleum ether extract of Njavara rice bran upregulates JAK2/STAT3 mediated anti-inflammatory profile in macrophages and aortic endothelial cells promoting regression of atherosclerosis. (2017)

 

"Njavara"(Oryza sativa Linn) is a unique rice variety grown in Kerala that is reported to have significantly higher antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, chemical indices, and bioactive components compared with staple rice varieties. However, the role of NBE in reversing the atherosclerosis development remains unclear. The present study aimed to elucidate the role of Njavara rice bran petroleum ether extract (NBE) in promoting atherosclerotic regression. Male New Zealand white breed rabbits were divided into three groups. Group I was control, group II was regression control and group III was NBE treated (100mg/Kg bwt). Serum and tissue lipids, CRP, antioxidant enzyme activities, mRNA and protein expression of genes of reverse cholesterol transport and mRNA expression of cytokines was studied. The current study showed hypercholesterolemic rabbits treated with NBE decreased the serum and tissue lipids concentrations, ApoB expression, CRP levels and enhanced the activities of antioxidant enzymes and PON1expression, JAK2, STAT3, ABCA1, ApoA. Our results indicate that NBE attenuate proinflammatory cytokine production(IL-1β), enhanced expression and interactions of ABCA1/ApoA1 leading to JAK2/STAT3 activation in macrophages switching to an anti-inflammatory milieu in the system, enhanced expression of IL-10 and decreased expression of Apo B indicating that treatment with NBE facilitate plaque regression.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28700834

 

 

 

Edited by ServousNystem, 27 July 2017 - 12:12 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

I was formally a member of Track Your Plaque but let it lapse.  My recollection is that there were several members who had tried it but had no positive results.  Perhaps I've misremembered.

 

What were your experiences with implementing TYP strategies? How long did you try?

 

 

You've got a lot of data in your story, it will take awhile to digest.  I have to say you might win some sort of prize for taking the most number of supplements per day.  Glad it worked for you.  However, whenever I see someone taking such a large laundry list of supplements, I have to believe that if they helped, it was some subset of that list that was actually effective.

 

One thing which impressed me greatly at the beginning of my health journey and starting to learn about nutrition was a video (can't find now) which demonstrated the difference between industrialized and traditional diets of long living cultures, in their difference in variation. While the former only contains a few dozen, the later contained hundreds of different species. Each with hundreds of different phyto-chemicals again. Therefore I'm definitely not worthy your price, compared to what some traditional cultures accomplished without even a second thought.

 

Or the ancient Ayurvedic story of a to be physician, who at his final exam was asked to find just one plant without medical properties in a radius of a mile around that place. He couldn't find one and thereby succeeded with his examination.

 

Why is the concept of synergy so difficult to grasp nowadays? And the concept of 1 pill taking away your symptoms so grasped at?

 

Even though it's the most obvious with arterial plaque that it forms after many years of various insults to the arterial wall, and only to protect it? Why not first look into how to avoid and ameliorate such insult in the first place?

 

 

So with doing something close to TYP, I've lost 30 lbs (13.6kg).  From 168 to 138lbs (76 to 63kg).  This puts my BMI right at 22. My LDL went from 102 to 66.  Don't have the rest of my lipid numbers handy but they all improved to some extent.

 

I had a CAC of 64, unfortunately with 60 of that left anterior descending artery.  I haven't repeated a CAC yet, probably won't do that till about this time next year.

 

I have been doing K2, but I cropped up with high hemoglobin last summer and it appears that the K2 is driving that up to some extent but is not the underlying cause.  Looks like it is good for about a 0.5 bump in hemoglobin which unfortunately gets me a bit over 18.  In fact, I've had to suspect most of my supplements to try to take that out of the picture while we try to figure out the root cause of this hemoglobin issue.

 

I've read up on your supplement regime.  I'm very glad you've had a reversal of your PAD, but unfortunately we can't attribute it to the Pauling Protocol, because you're not doing the Pauling Protocol.  Oh sure, you are on high dose vitamin C.  Maybe that is what caused your reversal, but by your own admission, you are on hundreds  of supplements and extracts.  I think the number you threw out is 500 supplements/extracts/targeted foods, etc.  It's great you've gotten a reversal, but that isn't the Pauling Protocol.  Frankly, I can't imagine the amount of time required to purchase and consume that number of supplements.  It must be something close to a full time job.  I've got to say that your dedication is impressive.  And you're still with us 9 years later so it's hard to argue.  But what is responsible for your success?  Who knows?  I'll say one thing, you do give us all hope that atherosclerosis isn't the irreversible one way street that most doctors will tell you.  Don't take any of this as negative in any way, because as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  You've had good results and that is all that matters to you.  I just don't know what conclusions I can draw from someone that has had positive results from taking hundreds of supplements.  

 

So, do you have any sort of imaging data (angiogram?) that shows what your blockage was when you started and where you are know?   

[Daniel Cooper]

Daniel, sorry so slow in getting back to you. I have only used cyclodextrin intermittently so far but am planning to start using it regularly soon.

Nothing much to report, no negatives with up to 3 x 00 capsules at a time. I'm trying to take it such that it doesn't interfere with anything else I take. Probably take it in the morning. Not sure I'd expect much with the intermittent dosing I've done so far but I normally don't feel the effect of most medications.

I've had some issues with my second purchase of cyclodextrin in that the shipping has been messed up. I believe that Australia post most likely screwed up, they said it was delivered but it never actually arrived even tho other unrelated parcels arrived on the same day it was supposed to be delivered. I would like a bigger supply before I go heavy on this stuff.

 

 

PWAIN,

 

Thanks for checking back in with us.  If you don't mind me asking, where do you get your CD from and what are you paying for it?  Also, it sounds like you are loading it into 00 capsules.  How much weight can you get in a 00?

 

I've got a couple of interesting cyclodextrin papers I'll try to post tonight.  The upshot is that you appear to be safe at 6g oral/day.  That dose has been evaluated and implemented in a human trail.  The only side effect they noted was some upset stomach, 8% in the active arm vs 3% in the control group, so doesn't strike me as a huge deal.

 

-Dan