35 replies to this topic

[machete234]

I recommend everyone to stay away from sunifiram. It is an untested drug (in clinical human trials) and this should be reason enough. It has caused temporary to persistent headaches in many people. There is good reason for it causing excitotoxicity by NMDAr overactivation. It also activates PKCa, overactivation of which causes metastatic brain cancer and other cancers. It is the height of arrogance to presume that the drug is safe and beneficial.

I wouldnt want to test this stuff on myself either, as a matter of fact I do have a sample that I wont touch.
If I recall right even the inventor of this was shocked that people allready use what he only tested on mice.

I happened to try Oxiracetam lately and think it could be a nice racetam to research a little more since it feels pretty clear and has practically no weird effects.

[boythatssomebreath]

Because Climactic has had a bad experience with a megadose of sunifiram combined with modafinil and other things, he has been going around warning everyone against sunifiram. While I think his intentions have been good (he wants people to be aware that there are potentially serious risks associated with an untested chemical), recently he is getting more and more categorical about this, stating as fact things that are speculation and anecdote. Sunifiram can cause headaches, yes, but in doses of less than 30mg per day, this is usually down to too little choline administration, because it eats up choline like anybody's business. Suni has been theorized to allow for excitotoxicity in certain rather specific combinations. However, a few of us have regularly taken suni with modafinil, in reasonable doses, with no excitotoxic side effects. And if a modest increase in PKC-alpha causes cancer, then don't do memory exercises, because PKC-α plays a critical role in long-term potentiation. He already got rapped over the knuckles for putting the cancer speculation into the Wikipedia article on sunifiram with no evidence. His warnings are intended as salutary, but his methods appear to be crossing ethical lines, which is a pity, because he has had useful contributions to make. Maybe he's just frightened because of what he believes to be long-term brain damage induced by suni. No-one else has reported such extreme and long-lasting symptoms from suni, and many of us have been taking it long-term now with no such effects.

I admit I have taken sunifiram "personally", and at times have been less than cogent about my arguments. What troubled me in the offending discussion is the user's refusal to even consider exercise for the headaches they got from sunifiram. I would not have stressed this if it didn't help eliminate my headaches 100% (if only for the weeks that I continue to exercise intensely). The warranted risks alone, of excitotoxicity and cancer, especially when sunifiram is coadministered with synergistic agents, should be sufficient to dissuade a person from chronically using sunifiram-like drugs. In the real world, we have to continuously make decisions from incomplete evidence. To wait for certainty can turn out to be deadly. Please note that I never said in Wikipedia that sunifiram causes cancer. As I recall, I only said that it increases PKCa, and that increased PKCa is associated with cancers. In fact, the article on PKCa lists the latter claim accurately with multiple references. See it for yourself. I know what a low choline headache is - it is easily remediated by supplementation. Sunifiram is a dirty ampakine, in that it undesirably first activates NMDAr. And if what you want is an LTP inducer, there are far safer approaches to first exhaust, namely lithium, noopept, B complex, and iterations of the CILTP stack. Thank you.

I agree with Climatic, there's no way I would take Sunifiram. Good luck to all of you who are currently taking this substance. Lots of unknowns - scary stuff.

I recommend everyone to stay away from sunifiram. It is an untested drug (in clinical human trials) and this should be reason enough. It has caused temporary to persistent headaches in many people. There is good reason for it causing excitotoxicity by NMDAr overactivation. It also activates PKCa, overactivation of which causes metastatic brain cancer and other cancers. It is the height of arrogance to presume that the drug is safe and beneficial.

I wouldnt want to test this stuff on myself either, as a matter of fact I do have a sample that I wont touch.
If I recall right even the inventor of this was shocked that people allready use what he only tested on mice.

I happened to try Oxiracetam lately and think it could be a nice racetam to research a little more since it feels pretty clear and has practically no weird effects.

I agree with machete234 as well. Quite a risk taking Sunifiram. I know we all take risks with Nootropics to some degree, but this seems close to crossing the line.

[Climactic]

At this time in my life, my sunifiram-mix induced headaches return if I don't exercise for five consecutive days, with a max discomfort rating of 3/10. For now, the funny thing is that this is an excellent motivating factor to get me to exercise regularly and intensely. My personal hypothesized diagnosis is one of glial neuroinflammation caused by NMDAr oversensitization. I still do hope that I fix this issue entirely, and ssplash does too.

Yes, please stick with the human tested racetams, and try to get product and contaminant testing done using pooled resources while you're at it. Since this thread is also about noopept, I will say that a bulk noopept user owes it to try the real Russian noopept at least once.

[Geoffrey]

I agree absolutely that taking unknown chemicals is risky. Problem is that we put a huge amount of faith in the (generally Chinese) laboratories that produce the racetams and racerams we buy through non-certified vendors (and I mean by that ANY source that is not a certified pharmacy). Climactic, given the symptoms and the fact that you appear to be the only person to have persistent, long-lasting headache after taking your suni-mix, I think you should entertain the possibility of contaminants in one of the ingredients in the mix you took. Folks, if you want to be safe, only purchase racetams in the form of prescription tablets in sealed/blister packaging from reputable pharmaceutical manufacturers. If you're not doing this, then you're taking *just as much* of a risk as those of us cautiously testing sunifiram on ourselves entirely at our own risk. NO-ONE who has any safety concerns whatsoever should be taking any racetam or raceram without a) medical advice from their doctor and b) a prescription-grade source.

[machete234]

Pharma grade limits the options very drastically, for most people that would mean taking Piracetam only.
But in general I tend to agree to what you say.

The only way to find aniracetam for example would be in Greece and it seems they do not have online pharmacies also they use a cyrillic alphabet, good luck finding things on the internet.

[jly1986]

Just an update from a long time sunifiram taker ...

I've been taking 5-10 mg suni regularly for the past many months (along with Noopept and centrophenoxine, and now PRL 8-53). I haven't experienced any adverse effects. Moreover, I'm rather surprised that after starting taking nootrops, I have not suffered my occasional head colds which used to give me throbbing headaches, especially at the start of winter when the season changes from warm to cold. I haven't even had to wear a hat yet this season, even though temperatures have been below freezing, and the biting wind making it feel even colder. I used to be sensitive to cold, especially my head. But for some reason, it seems the noots are providing some "anti-freeze" effect in my blood. It's an unexpected and pleasant side benefit for me.