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IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???
#211
Posted 13 December 2013 - 09:16 AM
Criticism by mainstream scientists[edit]
Hugh Ross has been criticized by CSUF professor emeritus Mark Perakh for crude errors and misunderstanding of basic concepts of thermodynamics together with misinterpretations of Hebrew words.[19][20]
Just using your pasting methods to save time....the whole Wiki entry is interesting.......much of this stuff is just a case of piling shit into very high heaps.....a method that fails to achieve gold, just like other forms of alchemy.
#212
Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:26 PM
Sthira
You don't know if the universe is eternal or not. Nor do you know if "God exists" or not. Keep believing that if it works for you; but your faith may or may not be in accordance with reality.
Nor your faith either. Let me try again with the argument.
“
1. I exist.
2. If I exist, something must have always existed because you don’t get something from nothing.
3. There are only two choices for an eternal ‘something’: (a) The universe; (b) God.
4. The universe is not eternal.
5. Therefore, God exists.
Let me quickly walk you through the individual points and demonstrate why I think this argument is reasonable and sound.
Yes, You Exist
A student in a philosophy class once asked his professor, “How can I know that I really exist?” The professor looked down the glasses that were on his nose at the student and responded, “And who may I say is asking?”
It’s simply self-defeating to contend you don’t exist because you have to exist to ask the question. As the mathematician Descartes (also a believer in God) famously said, “I think, therefore I am.”
Nothing is Really Nothing
No matter how hard atheistic scientists such as Lawrence Krauss try to argue in books like A Universe From Nothing that you can get something from nothing, you really can’t. Krauss redefines ‘nothing’ to be physical systems such as the quantum vacuum, so his widely panned book both fails to answer Leibniz’s question and embarrasses the physicist in the process.
‘Nothing’, as Aristotle said, “is what rocks dream about”. As an example, if you ask me what I had for breakfast today and I say ‘nothing’, you likely won’t ask me how my ‘nothing’ tasted.
The reason everything is here – including you and me – is because something has always been here. In the end, the believer in God and the atheist are really just arguing over what that ‘something’ is.
Only Two Choices
Some atheists have surprised me by saying we have more than two options available where an eternal ‘something’ is concerned. However, the vast majority of thinking atheists acknowledge that if the universe isn’t eternal, then God is the only other possibility.
Make no mistake about it – God is not ‘snuck in’ as one of the choices via some theological bias, but rather a creator is something absolutely essential if the universe has an explanation for its existence (i.e. it is not eternal). The universe comprises all of space-time reality and if it has a cause, it, as Craig says, “proves the existence of a necessary, uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, personal Creator of the universe. This is not some ill-conceived entity like the Flying Spaghetti Monster but an ultra mundane being with many of the traditional properties of God.”
It truly is a question of either matter before mind or mind before matter.
Ruling the Universe Out
If, as skeptics say, they go where the evidence leads, then they should be led to the conclusion that the universe is not eternal.
Empirical evidence such as the second law of thermodynamics, the fact that the universe is expanding, the echo from the big bang discovered in 1965, the temperature ripples found by the COBE project in 1992, Einstein’s theory of relativity, and more all point to a non-eternal universe.
Attempts at positing a supposed multi-verse (an ensemble of universes) have failed to deliver any real evidence that such a thing exists. Moreover, research done by eminent scientists point in the opposite direction. Dr. Alexander Vilenkin concluded his “State of the Universe” paper, which was presented at the 70th birthday celebration of Stephen Hawking that took place in January 2012, by saying “all the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”
Further, Vilenkin’s proof developed with Arvind Borde and Alan Guth, shows that any universe which has, on average, been expanding throughout its history cannot be infinite in the past but must have a past space-time boundary. This includes any supposed multi-verse. Since our universe and any multi-verse have a beginning, they have a cause and are not eternal.
The Fish You Can’t Drown
As Leibniz concluded, God is the best explanation for why everything exists. All the effort that Krauss and other atheists put into trying to deny God is, in the end, an exercise in what philosophy calls “drowning the fish”. You can pile all the ocean’s waters on the animal (in this case, God) in an attempt to drown it, but in the end, the fish is still there affirming its presence.”
Robin Schumacher
#213
Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:59 PM
No, the Higgs boson is part of the physical, caused world. God is not physical or caysed.Interesting theory, but have you considered that the Higgs field might in fact be God? Basically in this theory the Higgs field is the Force (an invisible energy field) and the Higgs bozo acts as an intermediary between the Force and the real world? The particle has to be considered an extension of God, otherwise he is not omnipotent, no?You didn't mention the Higgs-field. How do you explain the existence of an invisible energy field which surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together?
The same way I would explain anything physical. Most energy fields are invisible as is gravity.Let me illustrate the fine tuning of the universe argument.
Suppose, you were a photographer and you wanted to prove someone was throwing darts at a dart board located across a deep canyon. You set up your camera so you could see darts flying through the air toward the dart board. You take a highspeed picture and catch a picture just before a dart hits the board, in midair. Did somebody throw the dart?
Well, it has the right trajectory to hit the board, but we have no person in the picture. Maybe it was just by random chance, it happens you know. The nay-sayers insist there is no evidence of a dart thrower, they only believe what they can see, and prove by the scientific method. So, we put on a wide angle lens so we can include the thrower, if there is one, in the picture. Well, there is a big tree in the picture frame and the darts are coming from behind the tree and we can’t see the dart thrower. Is there one?
Well we can’t get across the deep canyon to look behind the tree so lets use a little reasoning power. What evidence do we have?
1. We have darts moving from behind the tree. They are moving, flying through the air, something must have caused them to start moving. Reasonable? Yes.
2. The darts are going in a certain direction, not randomly. Someone must have decided the darts should behave that way and set them into motion using an intelligent plan. Reasonable? Yes.
3. There are 100 darts, all sticking in the bulls eye. The darts were aimed by someone. Reasonable? Yes.
4. Who put up the target and painted a bills eye on it? Someone. Reasonable? Yes.
5. Why are the darts shaped the way they are, so they can fly? Someone? Yes.
We could go on but what is even more interesting are the non physical aspects.
Was there “will,” involved? Something wanted this to happen. Purpose is also involved. Rules and laws are involved. The darts should go in the bulls eye. Why? Because someone or something wanted it that way.
Is there a dart thrower, making the world and its rules just so in order that life might exist? Fine tuning of the cosmos says “yes.”
The Higgs particle was originally referred to as "that goddamn particle" but some religious prude changed it, for publication, to "God particle". The common modern use is a misuse which does not represent the view of Prof. Higgs. To waffle on with a prolonged explanation is a waste of time, as are any attempts to use it to either prove or disprove anything outside of particle physics.
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#214
Posted 13 December 2013 - 08:11 PM
You have said absolutely nothing but string together Logical Fallacies. (See list of a few) Talk about using other persons thoughts!"Read more about Dr. Hugh Ross."
Criticism by mainstream scientists[edit]
Hugh Ross has been criticized by CSUF professor emeritus Mark Perakh for crude errors and misunderstanding of basic concepts of thermodynamics together with misinterpretations of Hebrew words.[19][20] SH: Nothing but name calling. So, he may have misused a Hebrew word!
Just using your pasting methods to save time....the whole Wiki entry is interesting.......much of this stuff is just a case of piling shit into very high heaps.....a method that fails to achieve gold, just like other forms of alchemy. SH: How intellectual. Now what about the real issues?
Appeal to Popularity
1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is true.
http://www.nizkor.or...popularity.html
Appeal to Ridicule
1. X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
2. Therefore claim C is false.
http://www.nizkor.or...o-ridicule.html
Ad Hominem
1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.
http://www.nizkor.or...ad-hominem.html
NAME CALLING FALLACY;
A calls B pejorative names as if this adds something to the discussion. This logical fallacy often is followed by further Ad-Hominem attacks.
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Edited by shadowhawk, 13 December 2013 - 08:29 PM.
#215
Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:42 PM
God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
#216
Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:52 AM
*steps out quietly*
#217
Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:52 PM
http://www.foxnews.c...why-god-exists/FINE TUNING SUMMARY
God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
#218
Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:38 PM
you would have no more chance of proving that the fundamental constants are independent than I would of proving the opposite. I don't imagine too many people would be surprised if a final TOE showed that the values are totally interdependent. One of the most important flaws in all these arguments you've deployed is that they actually start from the desired conclusion and then seek to prove it somehow, rather like bad detectives trying to prove a theory rather than looking for and at all the evidence. Premise 1. is not sustainable.....the relationship could be as connected as the shapes and sizes of a mat of bubbles; remove one or add some and all the others would adjust. Premise 2 is not sustainable; it is just an assertion based on wishful thinking; if you include other options you are no further forward; you still have a choice with no evidence allowing you to choose, and since the interdependent option might have involved an element of chance at the start you can't actually discount that totally either. Besides, you haven't presented any evidence that the relationships didn't arise by chance. Since the premises are invalid the conclusion is void. False choices are a standard tool of bad arguments.FINE TUNING SUMMARY
God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
Edited by johnross47, 14 December 2013 - 03:42 PM.
#219
Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:53 PM
you would have no more chance of proving that the fundamental constants are independent than I would of proving the opposite. I don't imagine too many people would be surprised if a final TOE showed that the values are totally interdependent. One of the most important flaws in all these arguments you've deployed is that they actually start from the desired conclusion and then seek to prove it somehow, rather like bad detectives trying to prove a theory rather than looking for and at all the evidence. Premise 1. is not sustainable.....the relationship could be as connected as the shapes and sizes of a mat of bubbles; remove one or add some and all the others would adjust. Premise 2 is not sustainable; it is just an assertion based on wishful thinking; if you include other options you are no further forward; you still have a choice with no evidence allowing you to choose, and since the interdependent option might have involved an element of chance at the start you can't actually discount that totally either. Besides, you haven't presented any evidence that the relationships didn't arise by chance. Since the premises are invalid the conclusion is void. False choices are a standard tool of bad arguments.FINE TUNING SUMMARY
God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
But of course they are dependant for life as in our reality exhibits and demands. Change any of the many constants a small amount and life would not exist. You are misrepresenting the fine tuning of the cosmos for life argument.
Show me one argument that started from the desired conclusion and then sought to prove it. Straw man. Show me why premise two is false rather than your usual name calling. How did chance realistically produce the constants as they are?
What do you accept as evidence? I want to see if you honor your own standards.
#220
Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:59 PM
I don't want to get involved, but the fine-tuning argument is simply false. The universe isn't that fine-tuned, and whatever qualities it has that do favor us can easily be attributed to the anthropic principle.
*steps out quietly*
It is the anthropic principle. Same argument. OK.
#221
Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:04 AM
http://www.foxnews.c...why-god-exists/FINE TUNING SUMMARY
God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
"IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???"
#222
Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:39 PM
http://www.foxnews.c...why-god-exists/FINE TUNING SUMMARY
God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
Tell me how finely tuned the universe is, if it could collapse at any moment? (Note: Given the nature of the speed of light, it already could be collapsing beyond the horizon of the visible universe without us knowing.)
http://sdu.dk/en/Om_...apsing_Universe
Maybe it happens tomorrow. Maybe in a billion years. Physicists have long predicted that the universe may one day collapse, and that everything in it will be compressed to a small hard ball. New calculations from physicists at the University of Southern Denmark now confirm this prediction – and they also conclude that the risk of a collapse is even greater than previously thought.
Sooner or later a radical shift in the forces of the universe will cause every little particle in it to become extremely heavy. Everything - every grain of sand on Earth, every planet in the solar system and every galaxy – will become millions of billions times heavier than it is now, and this will have disastrous consequences: The new weight will squeeze all material into a small, super hot and super heavy ball, and the universe as we know it will cease to exist.
This violent process is called a phase transition and is very similar to what happens when, for example water turns to steam or a magnet heats up and loses its magnetization. The phase transition in the universe will happen if a bubble is created where the Higgs-field associated with the Higgs-particle reaches a different value than the rest of the universe. If this new value results in lower energy and if the bubble is large enough, the bubble will expand at the speed of light in all directions. All elementary particles inside the bubble will reach a mass, that is much heavier than if they were outside the bubble, and thus they will be pulled together and form supermassive centers.
"Many theories and calculations predict such a phase transition– but there have been some uncertainties in the previous calculations. Now we have performed more precise calculations, and we see two things: Yes, the universe will probably collapse , and: A collapse is even more likely than the old calculations predicted", says Jens Frederik Colding Krog, PhD student at the Center for Cosmology and Particle Physics Phenomenology(CP ³ - Origins) at University of Southern Denmark and co-author of an article on the subject in the Journal of High Energy Physics.
"The phase transition will start somewhere in the universe and spread from there. Maybe the collapse has already started somewhere in the universe and right now it is eating its way into the rest of the universe. Maybe a collapsed is starting right now right here here. Or maybe it will start far away from here in a billion years. We do not know”, says Jens Frederik Colding Krog.
More specifically he and his colleagues looked at three of the main equations that underlie the prediction of a phase change. These are about the so-called beta functions, which determine the strength of interactions between for example light particles and electrons as well as Higgs bosons and quarks.
So far physicists have worked with one equation at a time, but now the physicists from CP3 show that the three equations actually can be worked with together and that they interact with each other. When applying all three equations together the physicists predict that the probability of a collapse as a result of a phase change is even greater than when applying only one of the equations.
The theory of phase transition is not the only theory predicting a collapse of the universe. Also the so-called Big Crunch theory is in play. This theory is based on the Big Bang; the formation of the universe. After the Big Bang all material was ejected into the universe from one small area, and this expansion is still happening. At some point, however, the expansion will stop and all the material will again begin to attract each other and eventually merge into a small area again. This is called the Big Crunch.
"The latest research shows that the universe's expansion is accelerating, so there is no reason to expect a collapse from cosmological observations. Thus it will probably not be Big Crunch that causes the universe to collapse", says Jens Frederik Colding Krog.
Although the new calculations predict that a collapse is now more likely than ever before, it is actually also possible, that it will not happen at all. It is a prerequisite for the phase change that the universe consists of the elementary particles that we know today, including the Higgs particle. If the universe contains undiscovered particles, the whole basis for the prediction of phase change disappears.
"Then the collapse will be canceled”, says Jens Frederik Colding Krog.
In these years the hunt for new particles is intense. Only a few years ago the Higgs-particle was discovered, and a whole field of research known as high-energy physics is engaged in looking for more new particles.
At CP3 several physicists are convinced that the Higgs particle is not an elementary particle, but that it is made up of even smaller particles called techni-quarks. Also the theory of super symmetry predicts the existence of yet undiscovered particles, existing somewhere in the universe as partners for all existing particles. According to this theory there will be a selectron for the electron, a fotino for the photon, etc.
Illustration: A collapse of the universe will happen if a bubble forms in the universe where the Higgs particle-associated Higgs-field will reach a different value than the rest of the universe. If this new value means lower energy, and if the bubble is large enough, the bubble will expand at the speed of light in all directions. All elementary particles inside the bubble will reach a mass that is much heavier than if they were outside the bubble, and thus they will pull each other into supermassive centers.
Edited by Deep Thought, 15 December 2013 - 03:49 PM.
#223
Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:46 PM
I don't see any evidence for Christianity vs. other religions. Even the misguided arguments of Craig are not at all Christianity-specific."IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???"
#224
Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:57 PM
For a long time I thought the topic of this discussion was to prove or disprove the existence of the christian faith.http://www.foxnews.c...why-god-exists/FINE TUNING SUMMARY
God provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. Contemporary physics has established that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent, interactive life. That is to say, in order for intelligent, interactive life to exist, the fundamental constants and quantities of nature must fall into an incomprehensibly narrow life-permitting range. There are three competing explanations of this remarkable fine-tuning: physical necessity, chance, or design. The first two are highly implausible, given the independence of the fundamental constants and quantities from nature's laws and the desperate maneuvers needed to save the hypothesis of chance. That leaves design as the best explanation.
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
"IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???"
It obviously exists.
Are you trying to prove the existence of the christian God?
#225
Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:11 PM
Show me one argument that started from the desired conclusion and then sought to prove it. Straw man. Show me why premise two is false rather than your usual name calling. How did chance realistically produce the constants as they are?
What do you accept as evidence? I want to see if you honor your own standards."
I'm afraid I'm struggling to make sense of that first sentence.
It is very clear to most people that all of the arguments purporting to prove the existence of a god start from the arguer's presumption that a god exists. Atheists don't generally try such a futile exercise; it's the occupation of people who believe, and who believe that it aught, morally, to be possible to prove this, otherwise it is unjust to consign non-believers to hell.
The anthropic principal and its many variants is not a very sound or profound thought. The universe is, in general, extremely hostile to life, but given the vast numbers of stars and the (probably) even vaster number of planets, it is not in the slightest bit surprising that at least one planet is suitable for the evolution of life. That we don't yet know exactly how it came about does not justify saying god must have done it. That is just a version of the "god of the gaps" notion, which, since the gaps keep closing up, is very shaky ground to stand on. Nor is it sensible to say it only happened here; once we've visited all the other planets in all the other galaxies we can make such a claim. (I do realise you haven't said that)
Premise 2. fails for two reasons. One is that it is just an assertion. Neither you nor any of the cosmologists, who disagree widely over the origins of the universe, knows what the origin actually is. The difference between the cosmologists and you is that they know they don't know; they propose hypotheses for discussion and to stimulate possible experimental and observational investigations of the question, but they don't make rash claims about it. They are extremely intelligent, rational, mathematical thinkers, and if any of these "proofs" was really as sound as the believers want to think, the cosmologists would probably accept them. The second reason it fails is that one of your discarded options, physical necessity, is almost certainly true. If it turns out that a random fluctuation in the vacuum was responsible, then what followed was as physically determined as anything ever could be. The same would also be true if it turned out to be caused by a creative act of a super being.
Science has already managed to unify three of the four forces and hopes to include the fourth eventually. The fact that they were unified at one point implies that the values of the forces are interdependent. If you take a slice out of a cake you are setting limits on the possible sizes of subsequent slices. That the particular values existing are suitable for the kind of universe we see is as yet unexplained, and again, being unexplained does not justify assertions of godly interference.
#226
Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:08 PM
1. god is the greatest imaginable being
2. A being that exists is greater than one that is merely imaginary
3. therefore god exists.
This has been widely used ever since it was proposed by Anselm, though it has also been opposed by many people, including Aquinas and Kant. It is full of flaws but the first and possibly the simplest is that by using this process of definition you can define almost anything into necessary existence. You can define fairies as the smallest possible humanoid, and by showing that any finite series of graded sizes must have a smallest member, you conjure up fairies. Kant objected on the grounds that existence is not a real predicate.
To borrow an example (Jim Holt "Why Does The World Exist") "....take a concept like current members of the United States Senate. There are precisely one hundred individuals of whom this concept is true. Now suppose I add existence to the concept, getting current existing members of the United States Senate, Lo and behold, this new concept is true of the same one hundred individuals that the old one was" It adds nothing to the original.
You can rephrase the original argument;
x is god if and only if x is infinitely perfect and x exists
then to say "there is no god" is to say;
there is no x such that x is infinitely perfect and x exists
which is equivalent to;
for every x, either x is not infinitely perfect or x does not exist.
In other words, when the argument is honestly phrased, without sneaking the conclusion into the initial premise as a definition, it is no longer contradictory to deny god's existence.
#227
Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:28 AM
Right now we are talking about the evidence for God. Later we will talk about God's identity.I don't see any evidence for Christianity vs. other religions. Even the misguided arguments of Craig are not at all Christianity-specific."IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???"
#228
Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:02 AM
"But of course they are dependant for life as in our reality exhibits and demands. Change any of the many constants a small amount and life would not exist. You are misrepresenting the fine tuning of the cosmos for life argument.
Show me one argument that started from the desired conclusion and then sought to prove it. Straw man. Show me why premise two is false rather than your usual name calling. How did chance realistically produce the constants as they are?
What do you accept as evidence? I want to see if you honor your own standards."
I'm afraid I'm struggling to make sense of that first sentence.
It is very clear to most people that all of the arguments purporting to prove the existence of a god start from the arguer's presumption that a god exists. Atheists don't generally try such a futile exercise; it's the occupation of people who believe, and who believe that it aught, morally, to be possible to prove this, otherwise it is unjust to consign non-believers to hell.
The anthropic principal and its many variants is not a very sound or profound thought. The universe is, in general, extremely hostile to life, but given the vast numbers of stars and the (probably) even vaster number of planets, it is not in the slightest bit surprising that at least one planet is suitable for the evolution of life. That we don't yet know exactly how it came about does not justify saying god must have done it. That is just a version of the "god of the gaps" notion, which, since the gaps keep closing up, is very shaky ground to stand on. Nor is it sensible to say it only happened here; once we've visited all the other planets in all the other galaxies we can make such a claim. (I do realise you haven't said that)
Premise 2. fails for two reasons. One is that it is just an assertion. Neither you nor any of the cosmologists, who disagree widely over the origins of the universe, knows what the origin actually is. The difference between the cosmologists and you is that they know they don't know; they propose hypotheses for discussion and to stimulate possible experimental and observational investigations of the question, but they don't make rash claims about it. They are extremely intelligent, rational, mathematical thinkers, and if any of these "proofs" was really as sound as the believers want to think, the cosmologists would probably accept them. The second reason it fails is that one of your discarded options, physical necessity, is almost certainly true. If it turns out that a random fluctuation in the vacuum was responsible, then what followed was as physically determined as anything ever could be. The same would also be true if it turned out to be caused by a creative act of a super being.
Science has already managed to unify three of the four forces and hopes to include the fourth eventually. The fact that they were unified at one point implies that the values of the forces are interdependent. If you take a slice out of a cake you are setting limits on the possible sizes of subsequent slices. That the particular values existing are suitable for the kind of universe we see is as yet unexplained, and again, being unexplained does not justify assertions of godly interference.
I am sorry that you have made the false assumption that any of the arguments I have presented, start with the assumption of God. They do not. The fine tuning argument ( anthropic principal) goes for the existence of life in the cosmos no matter where it is. The same goes for the other arguments. So your logical fallacy is, "Beside the Point."
I have repeatedly said these arguments are probability statements showing it is more reasonable to believe in |God than not. The Fine Tuning argument is based on scientific observation of the basic constants of nature. (The entire cosmos, including every aspect of it.)
I have set no limits in anything but there are limits (laws) in nature. I will look at them next.
Edited by shadowhawk, 17 December 2013 - 01:28 AM.
#229
Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:26 AM
johnross47: Let's have a look at the ontological argument;
1. god is the greatest imaginable being
2. A being that exists is greater than one that is merely imaginary
3. therefore god exists.
I am sorry, but I did not once use Anselm’s ontological argument and this is nothing more than a logical Fallacy known as the “straw man.” You sure beat him up and even misstated the argument! Cute! Have you attacked any windmills lately?
And the U.S. Senate even got into this thought disorder.
Edited by shadowhawk, 17 December 2013 - 01:33 AM.
#230
Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:14 AM
#231
Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:50 AM
#232
Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:03 PM
You are a most unpleasant man.johnross47: Let's have a look at the ontological argument;
1. god is the greatest imaginable being
2. A being that exists is greater than one that is merely imaginary
3. therefore god exists.
I am sorry, but I did not once use Anselm’s ontological argument and this is nothing more than a logical Fallacy known as the “straw man.” You sure beat him up and even misstated the argument! Cute! Have you attacked any windmills lately?
And the U.S. Senate even got into this thought disorder.
Googling ""straw man" AND "shadowhawk" yields 63 hits.
https://www.google.d...sm=122&ie=UTF-8
Google ""name calling" AND "shadowhawk"" hits 95 hits.
https://www.google.d...e:longecity.org
Googling ""off topic" AND "shadowhawk"" yields 128 hits.
https://www.google.d...e:longecity.org
Googling ""off topic" AND "deep thought"" yields 8 hits.
https://www.google.d...e:longecity.org
Note: I do not have as many posts, and have thusly not participated in as many discussion as shadowhawk. I do still believe there's a certain trend going on.
For this discussion on the topic of religion and physics, I find this quote highly appropriate:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
- Albert Einstein
Edited by Deep Thought, 17 December 2013 - 01:08 PM.
#233
Posted 17 December 2013 - 02:54 PM
#234
Posted 17 December 2013 - 04:36 PM
#235
Posted 17 December 2013 - 07:17 PM
http://www.longecity..._30#entry619063
http://www.longecity..._30#entry619676
William Craig answers for himself.
#236
Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:28 PM
johnross 47
"So I gave you chance to act like a decent honest human. You failed. Goodbye. "
ShadowHawk, SH: Thank You for the chance. I failed! Goodbye again.
"His ultimate justification for his conversion is that he had an experience; confusing events entirely in his brain with external reality, which is practically the definition schizophrenia. Many of the statements of religious people would be signs of mental illness if made outside a religious context. I've given him chance after chance to engage in a proper analysis of arguments but he only responds with abuse and derision. Looking over his performance in other topics I would have agree; there is a pattern. "
sh: Yes look over the past dialogue and you will see the truth of Dr. Ross’s diagnosis. You have been so abused! Shall I point out the logical fallacies of all this, no I would be abusing you more.
Platypus:
"shadowhawn would you be a christian if you thought evidence was against it? are you an apologetic?" SH: would you be a Christian if you thought the evidence was for it?
"I think apologetics know at a deep level that they are wrong." SH: victory by self deceleration!! You win there is no evidence for Christianity.
Deep Thought:
"You are a most unpleasant man."
SH: What power in your arguments. So true. (And, you forgot to Google "Logical Fallacy.")
Typical "OFF TOPIC, " Atheism/agnostic response.
Edited by shadowhawk, 17 December 2013 - 08:55 PM.
#237
Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:40 AM
http://www.isnature...._Laws_draft.pdf
http://www.smu.edu/N...ght-04april2012
Although philosophers generally believe in laws and deny causes, explanatory practice in physics is just the reverse.
Page 1
No God, No Laws
Nancy Cartwright
Philosophy
LSE and UCSD
Introduction. My thesis is summarized in my title, ‘No
God, No Laws’: the concept of a law of Nature cannot be
made sense of without God. It is not as dramatic a thesis as
it might look, however. I do not mean to argue that the
enterprise of modern science cannot be made sense of
without God. Rather, if you want to make sense of it you
had better not think of science as discovering laws of
Nature, for there cannot be any of these without God. That
depends of course on what we mean by ‘laws of Nature’.
Whatever else we mean, I take it that this much is essential:
Laws of Nature are prescriptive, not merely descriptive,
and – even stronger – they are supposed to be responsible
1
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for what occurs in Nature. Since at least the Scientific
Revolution they are also supposed to be visible in the Book
of Nature, not writ only on stone tablets nor in the thought
of God.
My claim here is that neither of these features can be made
sense of without God; this despite the fact that they are
generally thought to provide some autonomy of the world
order from God. I will focus on recent accounts of laws of
Nature and describe how the dominant ones fail without the
efforts of God; I shall also outline one alternative that tries
to make sense of the order of Nature and the successes of
modern science without laws of Nature and without
immediate reliance on God.
2
Page 3
Empiricism. The most dominant view of laws of Nature in
contemporary Anglophone philosophy of science is
empiricism, which takes its starting position from David
Hume. Empiricists suppose that there is no such thing as
necessity in the empirical world, apart from logical
necessity. Nothing in the empirical world makes anything
happen. Nature is just a collection of events, one after
another.
There are, as it turns out, regular associations among these
events – the force experienced by an object is regularly
equal to its mass times its acceleration; these are the facts
recorded in what we call ‘laws’ in science. This doctrine
can thus provide a sense to the idea that laws are writ in the
Book of Nature: laws are regularities that occur in Nature.
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The problem, I shall point out, is that there is no way in
which these laws can be said to govern events in Nature.
There are three decreasingly strict versions of the empiricist
approach to laws of Nature:
1. egalitarian empiricism: all regularities are equal.
2. class-ordered empiricism: some regularities have a
higher status than others; these we call ‘laws’. What
makes for high status in a regularity? There are two
chief candidates on offer. The first is that high-status
regularities should have universal scope: f=ma
universally whereas All the coins in my pocket are
British has a very narrow scope. The second, which is
very popular, is that the high-status regularities are
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those that simultaneously maximize simplicity of
expression with breadth of coverage.
3. blue-blood empiricism: it is not just that some
regularities have more of something – like breadth of
scope or simplicity; some are qualitatively better in
that they hold necessarily. How can such a view label
itself ‘empiricist’? You will understand one reason for
this when see we how much more radically
unempiricist the next alternative is. A second reason is
in the kinds of accounts of necessity on offer. What
seems to be important for empiricists of this stripe is
to avoid the idea that anything in Nature makes
anything else happen; Hume after all taught that we
find no such thing in our experience of the world. The
favoured account is that necessary regularities are
those that not only hold, but would continue to hold
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were their antecedents brought about in arbitrary
ways.(So, ‘All the coins in my pocket are British’ does
not hold necessarily. If I were to put the coins in my
pocket that I got in change from my gelato, the
regularity would break down.)
I think that this last view cannot be carried off. There is
no fact of the matter about what would happen if this
heavy body were released without further non-Humean
facts like the earth has the power to make heavy bodies
fall. That, however, is not the primary objection of
relevance here. What matters for my arguments about
God and the laws of |Nature is that the laws we get even
from blue-blood empiricism cannot govern.
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What after all is a law on this view? It is a regularity,
albeit a very special kind of regularity. And a regularity
is just a collection of paired events: B follows A once, B
follows A again, it does so again, and again and … It
doesn’t matter in what mode the regularity occurs,
whether for instance this kind of pattern would continue
to obtain if A were to occur in different circumstances or
in different possible worlds. A regularity is just a
collection of paired events and a collection does not
make any of its members happen. This would still be true
even if we could find some stronger sense of necessary
to characterize the special collections we call ‘laws’. So
long as laws are collections of happenings, there is no
sense in which they can be taken to be responsible for
what happens.
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In a sense empiricists admit this. Their project has not
been to salvage laws but rather to salvage empiricism in
the face of the structure of modern science. Clearly some
things are privileged by modern science: the equations of
quantum field theory or of the general theory of
relativity. Empiricists have to make sense of this given
their view that Nature is just made up of one event
succeeding another, succeeding another, … Their view is
tailored to achieve this: the ‘laws’ and equations of
science refer to regularities and the regularities that get
represented as laws are the high-class ones, by whatever
the favoured criterion for class is.
What you cannot do on any of these empiricist accounts
is to find something in the empirical world that governs,
i.e. a law of nature. To that extent these three accounts
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are self-consistent: empiricism rejects governance as a
feature of the empirical world and governance does not
sneak in the back door in the reconstruction of laws as
classy or blue-blood regularities.
This does not, though, make these empiricisms
inconsistent with governance, tout court. In its origins in
the Scientific Revolution modern empiricism was neither
conceived nor intended to be at odds with governance.
Laws were God’s plans: the blueprints according to
which God makes things happen. They are visible in the
Book of Nature in the way in which an architect’s plan is
visible in the finished building or the laws of a good
society are visible in its functioning. Without God,
however, God’s plans and God’s will, there can be no
laws of Nature for an empiricist. There is no other
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account on offer that provides empiricist science with
laws of Nature.
Platonism. The second most dominant view of laws of
Nature in contemporary Anglophone philosophy is
Platonism. Platonists believe in abstract entities, for
instance mathematical objects (like numbers) or
properties or quantities. Versions of Platonism differ
according to whether all these abstract entities have to
appear in concrete objects and events or not. Laws of
Nature are relations among abstract entities like the
quantity force, the quantity mass and the quantity
acceleration. This contrasts with the regularity account,
which looks for laws in relations not among the abstract
entities but among the concrete events in Nature in
which these abstract entities participate.
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Platonisits’ laws are necessary because it is part of the
essence of the abstract entities that they relate in the
specified way: if they did not, they would not be the
abstract entities that they are. This solves the blue-blood
problem for regularities. ‘F=ma’ is a blue-blood
regularity appropriate to figure in science because the
abstract quantities force, mass and acceleration must
relate in the way we record in ‘f=ma’, otherwise they
would not be the very quantities they are. All the coins
in my pocket is not because being British is no part of
the essence of the abstract property composed of being a
coin and being in my pocket.
Suppose we accept all this. It still does not provide us
with laws of Nature. The best it does is to solve the
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problem the empiricists aimed to solve: to explain why
some regularities are better than others. The high-class
ones, the scientific ones, are the ones whose properties
(recall, properties as abstract entities) are related to one
another. But how do these relations among abstract
entities govern events in the empirical world?
The idea seems to be that if abstract properties bear a
certain second-level abstract relation to each other in the
Platonic realm, then the systems that instantiate those
properties will be related in some ‘corresponding’ way1
in the empirical world. But what makes that true? We
could say, “That is just what we mean by claiming that
the corresponding properties are related.”
1 That is, they will be related in some way that corresponds to the second-level abstract relation.
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The problem is that we cannot just say this. We have
already fixed what we mean by saying that the properties
relate in that way: it is part of the essence of the
properties that they do so. And we did this for good
reason: to solve the blue-blood problem. Now we need
some account of why when abstract properties relate in
the way they must given what they are, the systems that
instantiate them relate in some corresponding way. In
fact we need more than that. For we not only want the
relations in the empirical world to hold whenever the
abstract ones do; we also want the fact that the abstract
relations hold to be what makes the empirical relations
hold. That story is lacking.2
2 I think this point is similar to that made by Bas Van Fraassen in 'Laws and Symmetry', that accounts of
laws of nature must overcome two problems, the problem of inference and the problem of identification.
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Worse, I don’t think there is any story that can be told.
Abstract relations are not the kinds of things that can
make other things happen; they are not the kinds of
things that have powers. There is nothing internal to the
relations themselves that can do the job. If these Platonic
relations are to figure in an account of what makes things
happen in the empirical world, some outside force is
required to make them relevant. They may serve as
God’s blueprints for what he brings about in the world,
but they cannot bring about things themselves. What
Platonists call ‘laws’ as well as what empiricists call
‘laws’ need God and his direct control of the world if
these are to be laws at all.
Instrumentalism. Instrumentalists give up on laws of
Nature altogether. The ‘laws’ and equations of science
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are considered as instruments or tools for making very
precise predictions, for building things, for making new
discoveries. These ‘laws’ need not fit together in any tidy
way. They can be at different ‘levels’ of description, use
different mathematics and different concepts, cover
different kinds of things and even leave a lot uncovered.
I like instrumentalism because of the second feature of
laws which we have not focussed on yet: laws are to be
visible in the Book of Nature. The usual meaning of this
is that the laws are reflected in the regularities of Nature.
But I am sceptical that the right kinds of regularities are
there. We certainly do not see them. Most of our ‘laws’
have sweeping exceptions; we could not even hope to
see them obtain except in very special circumstances –
mostly inside the laboratory or in some specially
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felicitous natural arrangements like the planetary
systems.
Often we are told that despite appearances the
regularities really do obtain. Where? “Behind” the
phenomena, or perhaps “inside”. But these are
metaphors. There isn’t any front and behind to the
phenomena, any surfaces and insides. Things in the
empirical world do have components. Because of our
failure to make sense of regularities holding ‘behind’ the
phenomena we have been driven to rely on the notion of
components.
Large things may not behave in properly regular ways,
but their components do…or the components of the
components, or… In the end at last we reach the
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fundamental particles. These do behave regularly – or so
we say. In the end the only genuine laws of Nature then
are the laws of the physics of fundamental particles. I
am suspicious of all this. Why are these very central
regularities all just where we cannot see them? By
contrast, the one regularity I am really sure of is highly
visible: All men are mortal.
These questions about the scope of the regularities of
contemporary physics are a central concern of mine. Let
me summarize one main line of thought. Physics is dense
and highly interconnected; there’s nothing you can say
that doesn’t have countless implications that themselves
have implications, and so on. This is to a good extent
why physics is so powerful. If you find out just the right
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kind of information for your problem, that can have an
amazing rich set of precise consequences.
The drawback is that this thick set of interconnections
places enormously strict constraints on when any
particular physics concept can apply. This can very much
narrow the scope of where these concepts do apply – and
I think it does so. Not a whole lot of the world can satisfy
these constraints. We have good evidence, for instance,
that quantum constraints are satisfied in the material
structure of superconductors, but little evidence that they
can be satisfied for other kinds of macro-systems. As the
Nobel prize-winning quantum physicist Willis Lamb has
told us in lectures at LSE, it is very hard to get a system
into a quantum state.
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Those who believe in the universal scope of these laws
have a familiar reply. What Lamb is talking about is the
difficulty of getting a system into a known quantum
state. All systems are always in quantum states – we just
can’t ascertain them. Again, I am suspicious. I have
positive evidence that a variety of kinds of systems can
satisfy the constraints; I will await positive evidence
before I believe the others can.
To return to laws of Nature. Despite the fact that
instrumentalism eschews laws, I think it provides the
best fit between God and the laws of Nature. Suppose we
admit God into either the empiricist or Platonist frame, in
order to show how the laws can govern. We still wish to
see that these laws are writ in the Book of nature.
Regularities are essential to both the Platonist and the
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empiricist account here. For the empiricist, laws are
visible in Nature since laws just are regularities in
Nature. For the Platonist, although the laws are in the
Platonic realm, they are “mirrored” in Nature, again in
Nature’s regularities. The whole picture does not work if
these vaunted regularities are not there after all.
Instrumentalism offers an alternative. God uses the
‘laws’ of science in making things happen in the world in
much the same way that we do, as an instrument for
calculating what is to happen. The laws are indeed writ
in Nature but not in the questionable regularities of the
empiricist or Platonist account. They are writ rather in
the more complex, untidy particulars of everything that
does in fact happen.
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Aristotleanism. The last of the contemporary views about
laws finds its source in Aristotle. Like instrumentalism, it
does not suppose that there are laws of Nature. The laws
of science describe the powers that systems in Nature
have by virtue of certain facts about them.3 For instance,
material systems, by virtue of having gravitational mass,
have the power to attract any other system that has mass.
This kind of view has long been out of fashion,
especially among empiricists who take their cue from
Hume and who altogether reject talk of powers, causings,
makings and necessity in the empirical world. But it has
not always been so with empiricists. Early British
empiricists – before the spread of the Cartesian doctrine
of ideas and long before Hume – were committed to
3 For Aristotle, by virtue of their “Natures”.
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basing science on what is given in experience. But this
does not rule out powers, though it does make talk of
them difficult for post-Lapsarian man. For instance
Joseph Glanvill, apologist for the Mechanical
Philosophy, tells us that Adam could see the exercise of
powers: “…the influence of the Moon upon the Tides
was no question in his Philosophy.”
I endorse this kind of pre-Cartesisn/pre-Humean
empiricism and I have spent a lot of effort trying to show
that notions like powers and causings are not only
compatible with an empiricist view of science but that
we cannot make sense of science without them. This is a
long story. The one thing I should note here is that in the
right circumstances powers can play themselves out in
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regularities. But when the circumstances are not
felicitous what happens may be highly variable.
With respect to our central issue my major claim about
Aristotleanism then is this: Aristotleanism rejects laws of
Nature. But (if I and other recent advocates of powers in
science are right in our claims about them) it can make
sense of the laws of science in a way that respects the
two requirements we placed on laws of nature
(governance and visibily in Nature itself) and it can do so
without God. On the Aristotle-inspired account, there is
necessity and governance in Nature: natural systems
have powers and events in Nature are made to occur in
the way that they do by the exercise of these powers. The
laws of science describe these powers. As in the case of
instrumentalism, the results predicted from the laws of
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science are indeed visible in Nature and without the need
for hidden and secret regularities.
Conclusion. None of the 4 contemporary accounts of
laws that I have reported on can make sense of laws of
Nature without God. The last, Aristotleanism, can offer a
stand-in for laws – natural powers – that satisfies the
major requirements on laws without the need to call on
God.4 For those who cannot abide powers, I think there
are no options left. Without God there cannot be laws of
Nature, nor anything else with their crucial
characteristics
#238
Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:15 PM
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.
I have shown that the cosmos has the appearance of being “Finely Tuned,” for life by a designer. Dozens of constants (laws) exist and if they varied only slightly life would not exist.
http://www.longecity...180#entry629011
Where is the evidence to the contrary? There is none no matter how loudly the Atheists scream or try to derail the discussion of the topic with logical fallacies or violations of the forum rules and guidelines, contrary evidence.
I illustrated this by the “DART THROWER.” http://www.longecity...180#entry629199
The darts illustrate the constants that are aimed at the bull’s-eye of life. All of them are so finely aimed that it would be highly improbable that they could hit the target by blind random chance,
Next I presented Dr. Walter L. Bradley, argument for Fine Tuning. He brought up the subject of math which we will turn to again, next.
http://www.longecity...180#entry629222
Then I went slightly off track with this argument, a variation of the Cosmological argument from Contingency,
http://www.longecity...180#entry629626
http://www.longecity...210#entry629767
1. I exist.
2. If I exist something must have always existed because you don’t get something from nothing.
3. There are only two choices for an eternal ‘something’: (a) The universe; (b) God.
4. The universe is not eternal.
5. Therefore, God exists.
Then I presented W.L. Craig’s additional defense of the Cosmological argument after the Lawrence Krauss.
http://www.longecity...210#entry630446
Then I turned to Dr. Nancy Cartwright’s paper, “NO GOD, NO LAWS.” Which is directly related to the Fine Tuning argument.
http://www.longecity...210#entry630491
I will finish this section off with an argument for fine tuning, from mathematics. We will then turn to the moral argument for God’s existence.
Edited by shadowhawk, 18 December 2013 - 11:18 PM.
#239
Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:50 PM
maybe it's just me, but i prefer the notion in GOOD we trust than in GOD we trust. no more GOD to know more GOOD. or something like that. good luck, as in love, unity, compassion kindness. i know i much prefer the PLUR timeline matrix of GOOD's rainbow earth to the Xtian timeline matrix of GOD's green earth. i like green as much as the next person but it's not the only color, people love their green-colored or rose-colored glasses, well i like my rainbow-colored and black and white ones the best, when i switch between those two operating modes it sure seems like i pick up a much larger reality than everyone else does.
what's so scary about eternal life anyway that we have to be assholes to each other? can't we just play nice? for the greater GOOD, instead of playing gods? i mean i'm happy to play a goddess, i love my role as goddess hathor, but it's not cool when nsa is popping up needing my help because i've developed tools to resist brainwashing and they're trying to prevent the next 9/11 or sandy hook type thing from occurring.
idk it's just f*ing depressing to me, i mean it's not like they have to try so hard to kill me off anyway, i am half inclined to just leave hell and go back to plur where i came from, but i guess i fight to stick around because i am of the opinion that everyone deserves a fair shot to break free from the jenkem stench without ending up with another hiroshima to get people to start trying to get along again instead of manipulating each other.
#240
Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:37 AM
Including gods.
One of your potentially bad assumptions is that the Big Bang, as we currently understand it, was a true beginning.
We have to understand that there is still so much to explore with regard to ideas about our reality. Such as this, which may answer the fine-tuning issue:
http://www.npr.org/b...57/is-time-real
It's just beyond silly to create these epic god beings to fill in the gaps of our knowledge. And as history has shown repeated, once science comes marching along, we ALWAYS discover that gods had nothing to do with it. Historic trend is 100% on the side of non-believers. But believers, bless their hearts, keep trying!
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