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IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???

Started by shadowhawk , Sep 30 2013 09:06 PM

christianity religion spirituality

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#871 Deep Thought

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:49 PM

Shadowhawk, when did you snap?

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#872 platypus

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:14 PM

MainBrain, Obviously, you have not been reading what has been going on.

30 plus (not sure of exact number because I'm on my phone) page thread is a lot to read. Especially when you insure to provide absurdly long posts everything

But I'd love to hear your answer to my last post!

Don't forget to watch all the hour-long video-clips where that smug Christian philosopher touts his fallacies..

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#873 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:39 PM

MajinBrain, I didn’t think your ridiculous and bigoted cartoon deserved an answer. No body is doing that.
http://www.longecity...-29#entry661244

I did (despite your ignoring it) answer your complaint that you never saw a miracle therefore you wouldn’t believe in the resurrection.
.http://www.longecity...-29#entry661247

Miracles by their very nature do not happen everyday and it should not supprise you that you never saw one. That is why they are miracles. Like the Big Bang they only happen once. We are dealing with the evidence. You have said nothing about any of that. Why?

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#874 Lewis Carroll

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:58 PM

MajinBrain, I didn’t think your ridiculous and bigoted cartoon deserved an answer. No body is doing that.
http://www.longecity...-29#entry661244

I did (despite your ignoring it) answer your complaint that you never saw a miracle therefore you wouldn’t believe in the resurrection.
.http://www.longecity...-29#entry661247

Miracles by their very nature do not happen everyday and it should not supprise you that you never saw one. That is why they are miracles. Like the Big Bang they only happen once. We are dealing with the evidence. You have said nothing about any of that. Why?

Big Bang has concrete evidence backing it up.

Just read a good article, it made me think of you (and this "argument") <3

http://www.alternet....ight-wing-crowd

P.S. Do you purposely spell my name wrong each time?

#875 shadowhawk

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:51 AM

The Big Bang has Historical evidence and most evidence is historical space/time. I have presented evidence of the resurrection. Again, you have never said anything about it. Why

As far as your name, a mistake in reading it

Edited by shadowhawk, 10 May 2014 - 12:58 AM.

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#876 Castiel

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:39 AM

The Big Bang has Historical evidence and most evidence is historical space/time. I have presented evidence of the resurrection. Again, you have never said anything about it. Why

As far as your name, a mistake in reading it

Evidence of resurrection? In this thread? A bit long haven't kept up was it recently or a long while back?

As I stated I think earlier in the thread, not even trained physicians can accurate tell whether someone's actually died or is still alive. So someone could very easily survive to tell another day from some tragic accident, torture, etc and be misdiagnosed as dead.

Now even if we assumed a person had supernatural powers and claimed to have resurrected if they had those powers they could also easily fake death. And again supernatural powers do not mean you're "THE GOD" for all we know you're simply the demiurge and Bythos is the true God.

Edited by Castiel, 11 May 2014 - 04:44 AM.

#877 shadowhawk

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:27 PM

The Big Bang has Historical evidence and most evidence is historical space/time. I have presented evidence of the resurrection. Again, you have never said anything about it. Why

As far as your name, a mistake in reading it

Evidence of resurrection? In this thread? A bit long haven't kept up was it recently or a long while back?

As I stated I think earlier in the thread, not even trained physicians can accurate tell whether someone's actually died or is still alive. So someone could very easily survive to tell another day from some tragic accident, torture, etc and be misdiagnosed as dead.

Now even if we assumed a person had supernatural powers and claimed to have resurrected if they had those powers they could also easily fake death. And again supernatural powers do not mean you're "THE GOD" for all we know you're simply the demiurge and Bythos is the true God.

Not evidence of anything. People also die, does this argument mean no one is dead? So... this is the swoon theory. I mentioned this earlier.

#878 shadowhawk

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:03 PM

#879 shadowhawk

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:07 PM

#880 Lewis Carroll

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:01 AM

No, of course I don't know that there is no evidence, proof, or truth behind the bible anywhere in existence. We've already established, very clearly, that not everything can ever even be known, let alone to one person. I'm not omniscient and am not claiming to be. What I mean is that I have yet to see any hard evidence in this thread, or in my experience, that the stories contained in the Bible are true beyond a reasonable doubt in such a way that stands up to any real scrutiny. By that I mean (and don't think this is a straw-man, it's just an example of the difference, here) that it is like my story in my previous post claiming to have gone to the store and bought a pizza. It fits all the criteria of the "evidence" at the top of this page of Jesus being able to bleed from his skin due to the abuse described in the Bible, any yet my little story about going to the store didn't actually happen, despite being very plausible, and having actually happened several times this year. This isn't disproof of the Bible in any way, but rather a criticism of the admitted plausibility of the story of Jesus's torture story being in any way similar to what I would reasonably expect you were implying, in the title of the thread, by "evidence".

So I have a very good understanding of what is contained within the Bible, even if nowadays I consider most of it to just be poems, songs, vision-quests, or allegories. This doesn't mean that I immediately discount the possibility that they contain some nuggets of truth, because overall I feel that while the Bible teaches some very good lessons in easily understood language, regardless of whether or not it contains actual historical facts.

Now, what do I mean by "actual historical facts"? I mean something that actually happened, at some time in the past. A good way to prove this in a way that would constitute evidence, in my mind, would be that there are independently corroborating details found in other historical documents of the time, whose truth may also be able to be verified in a similar fashion.

For the Old Testament, this is extremely difficult, if not impossible. At the putative time of most of the events described, nobody knew how to write anything, at all. The Hebrews didn't even know what written language was until they encountered the Babylonians, and only after making their own writing system were they able to write down the ages-old stories in anything remotely resembling a permanent form. Sure, it is claimed that they memorized everything word-for-word, and passed it on verbatim, and the copies made of the documents were always said to be taken from the oldest possible manuscripts and copied letter for letter - changed not one Iota - but we only have their word for it, and after translation into so many different languages (Ancient Hebrew -> Greek -> Roman -> Olde English -> Modern English), we don't even have an "Iota" anymore, and the better translation into modern language would "not one bit". And, even though that saying is pretty well known, the original text didn't even have the word and/or letter "Iota", and the original words written in the Ancient Hebrew actually said "not one Yod", the smallest letter of the Hebrew Alphabet, which looks a lot like this ---> `
So the very line which says that you can't change anything has been drastically changed. It was all metaphorical, anyways, but nevertheless there has been a drastic shuffling around of Yods over the years. The very sentence in which the Bible claims to never have been changed has, itself, been changed. This is a big reason that the Bible is not a definitive and unequivocal source of truth.

There are stories in the Old Testament which are repeated in other religious texts, which . A good example of this is the Great Flood, which is spoken of in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Unfortunately for the testing of truth in this circumstance, the Hebrew only knew what writing was when they met the Babylonians, the people who originally wrote about Gilgamesh. The timing of their meeting of the Babylonians and their writing down of the Bible are too close to discount the possibility that the Babylonians are the source of the story. Beyond this, many of the other stories that others might have noticed and recorded for posterity left few survivors who could actually attest to its veracity (Sodom & Gomorrah, Jericho, The Garden of Eden, among others).

The New Testament, however, is a vastly different story. This was a time of high civilization, of writing and learned men. The setting and many of the overarching background events described in these stories (other than Revelation) are well known and easily verified. Pontious Pilate existed. Jerusalem was a real place at the time. Golgotha was factually a place of execution for the Romans, who really occupied Jerusalem around 0-30 AD. People were actually crucified. But this all goes to show that the story is actually set in a real location, with (some) characters that can actually be conclusively proven to have really existed. But it doesn't prove, show evidence for, or even do more than merely hint at the possibility, that a Half-Man Half-God born of a virgin was crucified and came back to life at multiple locations at once never to be seen again. And this is the thrust of what I mean by almost all of this evidence having been so-far put forth not constituting "Evidence For Christianity". I doubt you meant information about the setting or the back-story being real, you mean "Jesus Christ, who died for our Sins" etc, etc, and all of that.

I stumbled across this response, and I found it worthy of being re-posted. The poster, Jeoshua, makes quite a few very valid points that I have still yet to see you actually respond to. (many of these points which I also mentioned, but you ignored)

#881 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:59 PM

MajinBrian:
I stumbled across this response, and I found it worthy of being re-posted. The poster, Jeoshua, makes quite a few very valid points that I have still yet to see you actually respond to. (many of these points which I also mentioned, but you ignored)

Obviously, you are not reading what has taken place.

Before I go on, let me repeat what I have said about faith.
“Faith is belief in a person or thing without complete evidence. EVERYTHING has incomplete evidence, therefore we all live by faith. Faith is not blind, but intelligent and commences with the conviction and commitment of the mind based on adequate but incomplete evidence.

American biblical scholar Archibald Thomas Robertson stated that the Greek word pistis used for faith in the New Testament (over two hundred forty times), and rendered "assurance" in Acts 17:31 (KJV), is "an old verb to furnish, used regularly by Demosthenes for bringing forward evidence." To be persuaded by belief that has warrant, a trust in and commitment to what we have reason to believe is true. It is belief that the hypotheses we hold will be substantiated in the future, in fact. Trust.”

Now, again in the following post I am going to repeat the summary of the evidence so far given. Read it again and tell me I have not answered Jeoshuas issues. Get specific so I know what you are talking about and give some evidence of your own. Do you believe there were other human beings in history that a reasonable person could believe in and only a fool would deny?

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#882 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:13 PM

THE FIRST SECTION SUMMAEY, IS THERE A GOD? post 601
http://www.longecity...600#entry647448
============================================
WHICH GOD? SECTION TWO SUMMARY post 780
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657878
=================================================================
CASE FOR CHRISTIANITY AND CHRIST–SECTION THREE
=================================================================
WHAT IS FAITH?
http://www.longecity...-24#entry655255
http://www.longecity...-26#entry656730

PASSOVER, JEWISH BASIS FOR CHRISTIANITY.
http://www.longecity...-25#entry656295

THE EASTER RESURRECTION
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657069
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657647
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657800
Good Friday, other sources as evidence.
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657142

WAS CHRIST THE ONLY GOD TO HAVE RISEN FROM THE DEAD?
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657554

WHICH GOD SUMMARY, SECTION ONE AND TWO.post 780
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657878

PART THREE, EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY post 781
Sweating blood
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658023
Jesus’s wounds on cross
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658217

WHY DID JESUS DIE QUICKLY? Post 789
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658283

THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658516

TIMELINE OF THE WEEK OF THE PASSOVER FEAST.
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658553

THE JANISSARIES - ISLAM aside, off topic. Post 799
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658679
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659155

WHERE IS HISTORY GOING, HISTORY AS PROOF,
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658684

EVIDENCE SO FAR FOR THE RESURRECTION PRESENTED SUMMARY, post 808
http://www.longecity...-27#entry659099
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE MINIMAL FACTS APPROACH TO THE EVIDENCE ppst 815
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659385
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659570
FACT #1?THE DEATH OF JESUS BY CRUCIFIXION post 818
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659738
FACT #2?THE EMPTY TOMB
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659943
FACT #3?THE POST-RESURRECTION APPEARANCES post 826
http://www.longecity...-28#entry660241
FACT #4?THE ORIGIN OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH post 842
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660568
SUMMARY
THE MINIMAL FACTS APPROACH TO THE EVIDENCE post 843
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660574
CONCLUSION AND FOOTNOTES TO MINIMAL FACTS post 846
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660591
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOME EXTRA BIBLICAL SOURCES FROM COLD CASE CHRISTIANITY post 837
http://www.longecity...-28#entry660468
Some More Evidence for the Resurrection by Josh McDowell
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660619
EARLY CHRISTIAN non biblical HISTORICAL EVIDENCE post 850
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660772
IS THE BIBLE ALSO EVIDENCE?
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660945
THE MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE post 858
http://www.longecity...-29#entry661148
http://www.longecity...-29#entry661163

to post 876

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 May 2014 - 07:15 PM.

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#883 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:10 PM

THE SHROUED OF CHRIST

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 May 2014 - 08:12 PM.

#884 Lewis Carroll

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 03:10 AM

THE SHROUED OF CHRIST

Was Jesus white?

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#885 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 05:13 PM

Jesus was a first century Jew so I think he had the same skin color as first century Jews. And what color were they? The color depicting Jews from first century art. Black hair and brown skin of various shades. Here is the earliest Icon known from St Catharines Monastery in Egypt. It matches the Shroud in over 120 points and was probably taken from the shroud. What color was he?

Edited by shadowhawk, 14 May 2014 - 05:24 PM.

#886 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 05:53 PM

The blood on the shroud is type AB very rare and matches all races with XX cromisomes.. His color does not matter but we are looking at the Shroud as evidence. Here is a video on the Shroud.

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#887 platypus

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:11 PM

Jesus was a spiritual teacher, not the son of god.

#888 sthira

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:37 PM

Scary how much I look like Jesus. Hundreds of us look the same -- we all look like Jc down in the Berkeley streets below sh's lily-gated community.. In fact, my gf thinks i should audition for one of those creepy Jesus park shows.. Actors 4 christ! $20 an hour. All I gotta do is weep and bleed through my pores! I keep praying to dear ole dad for levitation powers so I may obtain heightened xtian street cred, but does god listen? Nope. Hey! Listen up, almighty: levitate us now! Tick tock ("Asketh & ye shall receive" etc, etc) so while we wait, evidence for xtianity comes in god's ignoring his modern creations, ie, god don't give away cool powers to us.. God, ur so mysterious! Want xtian evidence, hawk shadows? then prayfor my levitation skills -- or better yet, pray for your own levitation powers! Instant proof up in the hills, hear ye, see the Shadowhawk lift and glide above! Oh!. Til you levitate, u got nothing but crappy YouTube videos and phony little flea market books -- 50-cents a box for all your "references"

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#889 Lewis Carroll

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:44 PM

Jesus was a first century Jew so I think he had the same skin color as first century Jews. And what color were they? The color depicting Jews from first century art. Black hair and brown skin of various shades. Here is the earliest Icon known from St Catharines Monastery in Egypt. It matches the Shroud in over 120 points and was probably taken from the shroud. What color was he?

Is that Jesus holding a Bible?

I like to think of Jesus as being black. Maybe Jesus appears different to each individual depending on their own skin color as a way to be more relatable.

#890 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:53 PM

Yes, this is the earliest Icon of Christ in existence known as Christ Pantocrator from St. Catherine's Monastery in the Sinai, Egypt. How about this picture of the Shroud in black and white. Do you object to the white? Most Christians today are oriental. Does that mean Christ must be also? How about me being Scottish and Christ being a Jew? Christ must have been from Scotland.

#891 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:15 PM

Jesus was a spiritual teacher, not the son of god.

Sure He was.

http://www.bethinkin...esus-son-of-god

#892 platypus

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:21 PM

There no proof about that, just stories and hearsay. And stories about resurrection were pretty common at the time.

#893 Lewis Carroll

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:53 PM

Yes, this is the earliest Icon of Christ in existence known as Christ Pantocrator from St. Catherine's Monastery in the Sinai, Egypt. How about this picture of the Shroud in black and white. Do you object to the white? Most Christians today are oriental. Does that mean Christ must be also? How about me being Scottish and Christ being a Jew? Christ must have been from Scotland.

When you say "Christ", what exactly are you referring to/implying? Jesus I assume. Was Christ Jesus' last name? Jesus Christ?

#894 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:05 PM

I am sorry you don't know who we are talking about. He may look like this unless you are Irish. 170 points the same as the Shroud, the earliest Icon of Christ. To make a legal ID from a picture it takes only 40 points to ID someone. The early painter must have seen the shroud. Anointed, or Messiah is the meaning of Christ.

Edited by shadowhawk, 14 May 2014 - 10:12 PM.

#895 Lewis Carroll

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:36 PM

I am sorry you don't know who we are talking about. He may look like this unless you are Irish. 170 points the same as the Shroud, the earliest Icon of Christ. To make a legal ID from a picture it takes only 40 points to ID someone. The early painter must have seen the shroud. Anointed, or Messiah is the meaning of Christ.

Jesus is developing a lighter pigment with each picture you post!

So, Jesus the Christ. Quite the title.

I like this picture of Jesus

#896 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:36 PM

The real face of Jesus. Ray Downing is the computer scientist and graphic artiest that took the image off the Schrod which he worked on it for over a year. He created the first image I presented in this subject which came from the history channel.
http://www.followthi...ce-of-jesus.php
http://www.history.c.../the-technology

#897 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:00 PM

MajinBrain, You are so into peoples skin color!

Did Jesus claim to be God? Did he claim to be a man?

Josh McDowell says,

Jesus Christ is unique in the fact that He alone claimed to be God in human flesh. A common misconception is that some or many of the leaders of the world’s religions made similar claims, but this is simply not the case.

Buddha did not claim to be God; Moses never said that he was Yahweh; Mohammed did not identify himself as Allah; and nowhere will you find Zoroaster claiming to be Ahura Mazda. Yet Jesus, the carpenter from Nazareth, said that he who has seen Him (Jesus) has seen the Father (John 14:9).

The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18). Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5–7), which the Bible teaches was something that God alone could do (Isaiah 43:25).

The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that “the Word was God” (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God.

Not only did His friends notice that He claimed to be God, but so did His enemies as well. There may be some doubt today among the skeptics who refuse to examine the evidence, but there was no doubt on the part of the Jewish authorities.

When Jesus asked them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God” (John 10:33, NASB).

This fact separates Jesus from the other religious figures. In the major religions of the world, the teachings—not the teacher—are all-important.

Confucianism is a set of teachings; Confucius is not important. Islam is the revelation of Allah, with Mohammed being the prophet, and Buddhism emphasizes the principles of the Buddha and not Buddha himself. This is especially true of Hinduism, where there is no historic founder.

However, at the center of Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not just claim to be teaching mankind the truth; He claimed that He was the truth (John 14:6).

What Jesus taught is not the important aspect of Christianity, but what is important is who Jesus was. Was He the Son of God? Is He the only way a person can reach God? This was the claim He made for Himself.

Suppose this very night the President of the United States appeared on all the major networks and proclaimed that “I am God Almighty. I have the power to forgive sin. I have the authority to raise my life back from the dead.”

He would be quickly and quietly shut off the air, led away, and replaced by the Vice-President. Anybody who would dare make such claims would have to be either out of his mind or a liar, unless he was God.

This is exactly the case with Jesus. He clearly claimed all these things and more. If He is God, as He claimed, we must believe in Him, and if He is not, then we should have nothing to do with Him. Jesus is either Lord of all or not Lord at all.

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Why should anyone believe it? After all, merely claiming to be something does not make it true. Where’s the evidence that Jesus is God?

The Bible gives various reasons, including miracles and fulfilled prophecy, that are intended to convince us that Jesus is the one whom He said He was (John 20:30, 31). The main reason, or the sign which Jesus Himself said would demonstrate that He was the Son of God, was His resurrection from the dead.

When asked for a sign from the religious leaders, Jesus replied, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40, RSV).

In another place He said, when asked for a sign, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived.

Anyone wishing to refute the case for Christianity must explain away the story of the resurrection. Therefore, according to the Bible, Jesus proves to be the Son of God by coming back from the dead (Romans 1:4). The evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did rise from the grave, and it is this fact that proves Jesus to be God.

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:44 AM

Jesus was the first humanist. His message was that we are all children of God and so looking at each other we look at God. We can all forgive each other and world will be at peace. We are God. And it's the truth, if you allow God to be understood as a subjective concept (an inexpressible thought -> an emotion) rather than a real entity.

The message was obviously widely misunderstood and butchered to serve whomever was in control of its spread.

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#899 Deep Thought

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:19 PM

Shadowmohawk. Which motorcycle do you like the best?

#900 shadowhawk

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:24 PM

THE REAL FACE OF CHRIST

The Shroud is a fascinating piece of evidence. I have already given you a video of its history.
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662374

Computer scientists and graphic artists took the Shroud and worked on it with a team for over a year. I have already shown you the results. http://www.raydownin.../biography.html http://www.longecity...-30#entry662221

This is in conformity with the Oldest existing icon of Christ in more than 170 points. Facial recognition software uses only 40 points for a match. http://www.longecity...-30#entry662369

Here is a YouTube also showing the results.

https://www.youtube....4DD54B05CFF440B

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