10 votes
Posted 22 May 2014 - 12:55 AM
All the "evidence" for the resurrection is hearsay. If one accepts hearsay as evidence it follows that loads of religious figures have raised from the dead. If evidence for the resurrection of Christ would be so clear, virtually all Jewish rabbis and scholars would have converted, but they haven't (perhaps this is because God has told them not to convert to Christianity?). Do not use double standards please.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 01:04 AM
Your argument contradicts claims that the image on the shroud was put there at the moment of Resurrection. That would have been AFTER his body was bound wirh linen strips and spices.
Unless you have a different claim about how the image got there, your current argument directly contradicts the gospels.
No, they had not finished the preparation and came to the tomb to prepare the body because they had to stop because of the Sabbath. That is what the gospels say. They came to the tomb to continue to prepare the body after the Sabbath. They were not done.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 01:19 AM
Where is the evidence you have presented? Opinion, yes, evidence no.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 02:47 AM
JESUS, THE SHROUD AND LONG HAIR
Q: Could you give some insight as to the length of the hair the men wore during the time of Christ? This question came up in light of the scripture reference found in I Corinthians 11: 14, 15, where it indicates that nature itself teaches us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair. The image on the Shroud appears to have shoulder length or longer hair.. Therefore, it does not seem feasible that Jesus would do something that he did not want his followers to do and give them instruction on how to appear in regards to the grooming of their hair if he wore his hair in direct opposition of the instructions he gave to them.
Once again I asked Rev. Albert "Kim" Dreisbach, a biblical scholar, theologian and Shroud historian to draft the response to this question. Here is his reply:
A: Recently I had a very similar question posed by a young man from Indiana. My response was as follows:
I'm afraid that your "Jewish authority" is mistaken with regard to the length of hair for Jewish males in the first century C.E. (i.e. Common Era).
According to R.C. Dentan in an article written for The Interpreter's Bible Dictionary:
"HAIR. The hair's capacity for constant growth has always made it seem an important seat of life and, therefore, religiously significant. The most notable example of this in the Bible is in the case of the NAZIRITE VOW (Num. 6:12 1; Judg. 13:5; 16:17; 1 Sam. 1: I 1), one aspect of which was to allow the hair to grow long so that it might be presented to God as an offering (Num. 6: 18; Acts 18:18; 21:23-24). Samson's hair, in the final form of the story (Judg. 13:5), appears to have been left long in fulfillment of such a vow, although originally it had a more primitive significance as the repository of his strength Judg. 16:19, 22). The shaving of the head in mourning (Job 1:20; Isa. 15:2; Jer. 41:5; 47:5; 48:37; Ezek. 7:18) and the offering of the hair to the dead were part of ancient religious practice, but forbidden to the Hebrews (Deut. 14: 1). Indeed, the complete shaving of the head was forbidden to them for any purpose (Lev. 19:27; cf. Jer. 9:26; Ezek. 44:20). In the OT, long hair on men was greatly admired (II Sam. 14:25-26; cf. Song of S. 5:2, 1 1), but in the NT it is frowned upon as contrary to nature (I Cor. II: 14). Although women wore their hair long (I Cor. 11:15), the biblical writers deplore the excessive ornamentation of it (Isa. 3:24; 1 Pet. 3:3). The hair is a symbol of the fine (Judg. 20:16), the small (Luke 21:18),and the numerous (Matt. 10:30)."
When it comes to the passage from I Cor. 11:14-15, one must remember that it was written at least 20 years after the death of Jesus. Closer study will reveal that it is simply Paul's personal opinion and certainly not a regulation which would have applied to Jesus during his lifetime. Once again a quote from The Interpreter's Bible volume devoted to I Corinthians may prove useful in this case:
"[Today it would be] considered folly to argue, as Paul implies, that men are likely to be less spiritually sensitive or alert because their hair is worn long, or that a woman loses spiritual and social standing because her hair is short, or because she appears in public with her head uncovered. The argument would have been unconvincing, in some respects at least, even in Paul's day; for Greek heroes often wore long hair, and many ancient philosophers, as well as their modern counterparts, followed the same practice. Paul is entitled to his opinion and to his adherence to social custom. He is not entitled to make his personal opinion, or the prevalent social customs of his time, the basis of a moral law or of a categorical imperative of the Kantian order. What is permanent in all this discussion is that the conduct of church affairs, and public worship in particular, should be marked by reverence and order, by dignity and decency. Nothing should be permitted that attracts undue attention to itself." [Emphasis added.]
A careful study of the Shroud of Turin will reveal that not only did this man have shoulder length hair and a beard, but if you study the dorsal or back side you can also detect an unplaited ponytail - a hairstyle favored by young men at that time. Logic alone would seem to indicate that one wouldn't have enough hair for a ponytail unless at least that hair on the back of the head was long.
Though Jesus was not a Nazarite, this group is defined by the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church as:
A body of Israelites specially consecrated to the service of God who were under vows to abstain from drinking the produce of the vine, to let their hair grow and to avoid defilement by contact with the dead (Num. 6).
Once again we have evidence that at least some Jewish males wore long hair.
If you study art from the Byzantine to Western European, Jesus is traditionally portrayed with long (i.e. shoulder length) hair. The objection to this style is relatively modern and is probably based on a bias to its making the wearer appear too feminine.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 05:30 AM
JESUS, THE SHROUD AND LONG HAIR
Q: Could you give some insight as to the length of the hair the men wore during the time of Christ? This question came up in light of the scripture reference found in I Corinthians 11: 14, 15, where it indicates that nature itself teaches us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair. The image on the Shroud appears to have shoulder length or longer hair.. Therefore, it does not seem feasible that Jesus would do something that he did not want his followers to do and give them instruction on how to appear in regards to the grooming of their hair if he wore his hair in direct opposition of the instructions he gave to them.
Once again I asked Rev. Albert "Kim" Dreisbach, a biblical scholar, theologian and Shroud historian to draft the response to this question. Here is his reply:
A: Recently I had a very similar question posed by a young man from Indiana. My response was as follows:
I'm afraid that your "Jewish authority" is mistaken with regard to the length of hair for Jewish males in the first century C.E. (i.e. Common Era).
According to R.C. Dentan in an article written for The Interpreter's Bible Dictionary:
"HAIR. The hair's capacity for constant growth has always made it seem an important seat of life and, therefore, religiously significant. The most notable example of this in the Bible is in the case of the NAZIRITE VOW (Num. 6:12 1; Judg. 13:5; 16:17; 1 Sam. 1: I 1), one aspect of which was to allow the hair to grow long so that it might be presented to God as an offering (Num. 6: 18; Acts 18:18; 21:23-24). Samson's hair, in the final form of the story (Judg. 13:5), appears to have been left long in fulfillment of such a vow, although originally it had a more primitive significance as the repository of his strength Judg. 16:19, 22). The shaving of the head in mourning (Job 1:20; Isa. 15:2; Jer. 41:5; 47:5; 48:37; Ezek. 7:18) and the offering of the hair to the dead were part of ancient religious practice, but forbidden to the Hebrews (Deut. 14: 1). Indeed, the complete shaving of the head was forbidden to them for any purpose (Lev. 19:27; cf. Jer. 9:26; Ezek. 44:20). In the OT, long hair on men was greatly admired (II Sam. 14:25-26; cf. Song of S. 5:2, 1 1), but in the NT it is frowned upon as contrary to nature (I Cor. II: 14). Although women wore their hair long (I Cor. 11:15), the biblical writers deplore the excessive ornamentation of it (Isa. 3:24; 1 Pet. 3:3). The hair is a symbol of the fine (Judg. 20:16), the small (Luke 21:18),and the numerous (Matt. 10:30)."
When it comes to the passage from I Cor. 11:14-15, one must remember that it was written at least 20 years after the death of Jesus. Closer study will reveal that it is simply Paul's personal opinion and certainly not a regulation which would have applied to Jesus during his lifetime. Once again a quote from The Interpreter's Bible volume devoted to I Corinthians may prove useful in this case:
"[Today it would be] considered folly to argue, as Paul implies, that men are likely to be less spiritually sensitive or alert because their hair is worn long, or that a woman loses spiritual and social standing because her hair is short, or because she appears in public with her head uncovered. The argument would have been unconvincing, in some respects at least, even in Paul's day; for Greek heroes often wore long hair, and many ancient philosophers, as well as their modern counterparts, followed the same practice. Paul is entitled to his opinion and to his adherence to social custom. He is not entitled to make his personal opinion, or the prevalent social customs of his time, the basis of a moral law or of a categorical imperative of the Kantian order. What is permanent in all this discussion is that the conduct of church affairs, and public worship in particular, should be marked by reverence and order, by dignity and decency. Nothing should be permitted that attracts undue attention to itself." [Emphasis added.]
A careful study of the Shroud of Turin will reveal that not only did this man have shoulder length hair and a beard, but if you study the dorsal or back side you can also detect an unplaited ponytail - a hairstyle favored by young men at that time. Logic alone would seem to indicate that one wouldn't have enough hair for a ponytail unless at least that hair on the back of the head was long.
Though Jesus was not a Nazarite, this group is defined by the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church as:
A body of Israelites specially consecrated to the service of God who were under vows to abstain from drinking the produce of the vine, to let their hair grow and to avoid defilement by contact with the dead (Num. 6).
Once again we have evidence that at least some Jewish males wore long hair.
If you study art from the Byzantine to Western European, Jesus is traditionally portrayed with long (i.e. shoulder length) hair. The objection to this style is relatively modern and is probably based on a bias to its making the wearer appear too feminine.
However, in the anti-Hellenistic Jewish Talmud is the instruction that every thirty days, all the priests should cut their hair. Why this instruction if they grew their hair long? These priests were well aware of Ezekiel 44:20: “Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long.” God intended that the priests set the example for the rest of the community....
Those under this [nazarite]vow grew their hair long as a sign of humiliation...
Also notice that when the time of the vow was over, the person under the vow was to shave his head (Num. 6:18)—ending this shameful period!
At that time the people began to abandon all of the early depictions of Christ made in the previous hundred years or so (which showed ‘Jesus normally as young, beardless and with hair like ordinary men—not with long flowing feminine type of hair)...
.
There was a definite reason why Jewish men (especially in the time of Jesus) wore their hair short as a common custom. The people knew that the Aaronic priests had the role of being mediators between themselves and God. Sometimes the priests took the place of the people in petitioning God, while at other times the priests became a substitute for God in instructing the people. In the time of Jesus most of the Sadducees were priests while the majority of the remainder of the Jews were Pharisees. The Pharisees applied the Scripture that the whole nation of Israel were to be reckoned as priests (Exodus 19:6) and they invented some strict customs even for themselves and the common people that were actually designed only for priests. And what was a principal custom (indeed, it was a command from God) that characterized the priests because of their roles in being like God to the people and the rest of the world? God commanded all priests to have SHORT HAIR!
Edited by Castiel, 22 May 2014 - 05:31 AM.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 07:04 AM
No, they had not finished the preparation and came to the tomb to prepare the body because they had to stop because of the Sabbath. That is what the gospels say. They came to the tomb to continue to prepare the body after the Sabbath. They were not done.
Your argument contradicts claims that the image on the shroud was put there at the moment of Resurrection. That would have been AFTER his body was bound wirh linen strips and spices.
Unless you have a different claim about how the image got there, your current argument directly contradicts the gospels.
Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:17 PM
No it does not contradict anything. They had not finished the preparation and came to the tomb to prepare the body because they had to stop because of the Sabbath. That is what the gospels say. They came to the tomb to continue to prepare the body after the Sabbath. They were not done.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Merrill Tenney describes the Jewish custom as follows: In preparing a body for burial according to Jewish custom, it was usually washed and straightened, and then bandaged tightly from the armpits to the ankles in strips of linen about a foot wide. Aromatic spices, often of a gummy consistency, were placed between the wrappings or folds. They served partially as a preservative and partially as a cement to glue the cloth wrappings into a solid covering. (from: The Reality of the Resurrection).
John 19:38-40 is very precise in indicating that Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus prepared Jesus' body in the manner of the Jews for proper burial. This procedure involves extensive wrapping of the body, while including a LOT of myrrh and aloes that would get placed between the various layers of cloth. Specifically, John 19:40 says that "Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury."
The shroud is linen about three half by 14 and half feet long. It was not wound around the body like a mummy, it was laid on the flat stone, the body was placed on top of it, and the other half was brought over the head and down to the feet. THEN IT WAS TUCKED IN AROUND THE BODY USING BAGS OF SPICES WEIGHING A TOTAL BETWEEN 75 - 100 POUNDS. BECAUSE OF THE EVENTS OF THE DAY OF CRUCIFIXION (Friday|) THE SABBATH WAS RAPIDLY APPROACHING (sundown) AND THEY DID NOT FINISH THE PROCESS OF JEWISH BIAURAL PREPARATION AND OTHERS HAD TO FINISH IT SUNDAY. Mark 16:1
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. (See also Matt 28:1-15; Luke 23:56 to 24:12; John 20:1-18) These passages also say early in the morning they also brought ointments which they had prepared.
Where did they get the very expensive spices and ointments? Perhaps they were the same ones that Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus prepared but had not yet used. John 19:38-40.
When the two Marys and Salome came to the tomb with their biaural materials they also had others with them to help with the preparation. Then the earthquake hit and rolled away the stone locking and blocking the tomb.
Did they have flowers along with the ointment and spices? Apparently yes which is still the custom today. They show up on the shroud probably placed there in the rush before the Sabbath, sundown Friday. They never got to apply the ointments they prepared Friday.
The image on the Shroud, is just many defused smudges. A careful look at the smudges reveals the form of the body. The image can only be seen on one side. The backside shows no image, even when light is shown through the shroud. The only things that show are the blood marks, which have soaked through the cloth. The first photographs of the shroud taken by Secondo Pia revealed one of the most astounding properties of the shroud. When Pia developed the negatives, he found that the negative image showed that positive coloration. Additionally this positive image included enough detail to show small to inch lash marks. This kind of detail is totally invisible to the naked eye. The fact of this negative image alone is enough evidence to prove that the shroud is not a painted forgery. Additionally, while the image is negative, the blood marks show positive. The shroud therefore contains both positive and negative images. Micrographs taking at high magnification clearly show the individual, 15 micron-thick fibers that make up each small thread of the cloth. These fibers have been structurally changed, taking on a yellowish quality in the process. These yellowed fibers make up the image of the man. The micrographs show, incredibly, that fibers laying next to each other on the same thread have not been yellowed like their next-door neighbors. One thread may have 20 individual fibers, which alternate, yellowed, not yellowed, yellowed, not yellowed, yellowed, etc. These fibers are less than a human hair in thickness! Lastly, no yellowed fibers can be found on the reverse side of any thread. All the yellowing is found only on the inside surface of the cloth, and only ONE FIBER DEEP! ! !
We know from the pollen and faint flower images that the shroud originated from Jerusalem in the spring of the year. Why? Because these plants only grow in the Jerusalem area and bloom during the time of the resurrection.
Historians traced the shroud to Constantinople in 944 and tell us that there was an ancient cloth called the Image of Edessa that goes back to the first century. This ancient cloth was in the East and is said to have an image of Jesus that was “not made by the hands of man”.
The image is complex, containing photographic information but of a three-dimensional quality, as well as x-ray-like information. For example you can see the bones in the image. How did that happen?
Magnified photographs of the image demonstrate no paint and the scorched yellowness of only the top most fibers of the threads are responsible for the image. Technology to this date has not been able to reproduce this complex image at the microscopic level.
The shading is more like the technology of newspaper print -- -- “if you want to make an area darker, you put in more dots.”
What looks like blood has been chemically substantiated to be blood, serum is present.
The blood came first, the image second. Type AB.
The blood is real.
The image is of a man who was crucified.
The wounds are identical to those inflicted upon Jesus.
The scourge marks are historically consistent.
99 percent of scientists world wide who has studied the cloth up close, have found that is not a painting.
The process causing the yellowness of the top most fibers of the threads responsible for the image is unknown.
The shading quality of the image is more like the results of modern printing technology.
The shroud micrographs showed no residue of paint or powder.
If the image was created by contact, it would be grotesque and distorted, with the blood marks out of alignment.
The image is not produced by a contact process.
The image is complex, with photographic, three-dimensional and x-ray-like qualities.
The information indicates that this was a Jewish burial.
The faint flower images seen on the cloth are all flowers that grow in the Holy Land. These flowers bloom in spring at Passover time.
There are what appear to be shadows on the body image.
The hair falls down to the shoulders and the soles of the feet are seen on the shroud.
It appears that this dead man has been lifted from the position of burial and is now upright as if suspended in midair.
The latest carbon 14 tests date the shroud to the time of Christ.
So, am I a liar? You be the judge. I believe this is evidence for Christ s resurrection. I will close this with a discussion of how the image was created
.
Edited by shadowhawk, 22 May 2014 - 10:26 PM.
Posted 23 May 2014 - 06:49 AM
Posted 23 May 2014 - 10:29 AM
In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene and another Mary at his empty tomb. Later, eleven of the disciples (minus Judas Iscariot) go to a mountain in Galilee to meet Jesus, who appears to them and commissions them to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and to make disciples of all people, referred to as the Great Commission.
In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus appears to the disciples and eats with them, demonstrating that he is flesh and bones,[5] not a ghost. He tells them to wait in Jerusalem for the start of their mission to the world, and then he ascends into the heavens. In Acts, written by the same author as Luke,[6] Jesus appears to his disciples after his death and stays with them for 40 days before ascending to heaven. Acts also describes Jesus' appearance to Paul, in which a voice speaks to Paul and a light blinds him while he's on the road to Damascus. In the Gospel of John, Mary alone finds Jesus at the empty tomb, and he tells her not to touch him because he has not yet ascended to his Father. Later, he appears to the disciples. He moves through a closed door and has "doubting Thomas" touch his wounds to demonstrate that he is flesh and bones. In a later appearance, Jesus assigns Peter the role of tending to Jesus' sheep, that is, leading Jesus' followers. The traditional ending of Mark summarizes resurrection appearances from Matthew and Luke.
Matthew also reports that while Mary and Mary were returning to the disciples, the watchmen of the city informed the chief priests of "the things that were done", and the Sanhedrin gave money to the soldiers to spread the message that Jesus' corpse had been stolen by his disciples. Matthew mentions that this had become a common claim of the Jews
Edited by addx, 23 May 2014 - 11:27 AM.
Posted 23 May 2014 - 07:59 PM
John's account illustrates them hurrying to prepare Jesus before the Sabbath. They wrapped the body in strips and spices, and placed the body in a new (unused) tomb
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Empty_tomb
Yes, but you are ignoring all the evidence.
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. (See also Matt 28:1-15; Luke 23:56 to 24:12; John 20:1-18) These passages also say early in the morning they also brought ointments which they had prepared.
Where did they get the very expensive spices and ointments? Perhaps they were the same ones that Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus prepared but had not yet used. John 19:38-40. Read all the evidence not just part. 
So they did not have time to prepare the body, they placed flowers and sweet smelling spices on it, tore a strip of cloth from the side of the Shroud, tied it up and left before sundown Friday night. Then early Sunday morning the women with their helpers came back to finish the job, with the remaining spices and ointments which had not been used to complete the process of Jewish preparation. So the shroud fits the evidence.
Edited by shadowhawk, 23 May 2014 - 08:18 PM.
Posted 23 May 2014 - 08:39 PM
Castiel:
The very earliest Icons of Christ show Him having long dark hair. Not that important but do you have any evidence otherwise?
http://www.longecity...-31#entry662677
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662435
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662369
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662221
Posted 23 May 2014 - 09:20 PM
addx: No use answering your made up stuff. So you don't believe. Evidence please.
Posted 23 May 2014 - 10:16 PM
Evidence is different than proof. Things such as the Big Bang only happen once. So does a murder and so does a miracle. The resurrection only happened once but we do have evidence.
vote
Edited by shadowhawk, 23 May 2014 - 10:20 PM.
Posted 23 May 2014 - 11:31 PM
Castiel:
The very earliest Icons of Christ show Him having long dark hair. Not that important but do you have any evidence otherwise?
http://www.longecity...-31#entry662677
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662435
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662369
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662221
http://www.huffingto..._n_5234109.html
possibly. That's said to be earliest though needs confirmation, still it's several centuries after the fact. According to the article I linked descriptions of earliest images were short haired(I assume the author of the article has some reasoning or evidence to back that claim). These recent findings seem to confirm that claim if verified.
John's account illustrates them hurrying to prepare Jesus before the Sabbath. They wrapped the body in strips and spices, and placed the body in a new (unused) tomb
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Empty_tomb
Yes, but you are ignoring all the evidence.
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. (See also Matt 28:1-15; Luke 23:56 to 24:12; John 20:1-18) These passages also say early in the morning they also brought ointments which they had prepared.
Where did they get the very expensive spices and ointments? Perhaps they were the same ones that Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus prepared but had not yet used. John 19:38-40. Read all the evidence not just part.
So they did not have time to prepare the body, they placed flowers and sweet smelling spices on it, tore a strip of cloth from the side of the Shroud, tied it up and left before sundown Friday night. Then early Sunday morning the women with their helpers came back to finish the job, with the remaining spices and ointments which had not been used to complete the process of Jewish preparation. So the shroud fits the evidence.
I've not read it but if one gospel says something and another says something different, it is possible there exists contradiction, and they do not necessarily need to concur unless you're under the assumption that they're based on true events.
Some have said the date of the census that caused mary and joseph to move contradicts other statements in the gospels
I wonder if you could clarify something that has me puzzled. According to the gospels of Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. But Luke also wrote that Joseph and Mary had to go to Bethlehem for a census by Quirinius while she was still pregnant, and this event has been dated at 6 A.D., or ten years after Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. There have been no historical records to indicate that any Roman census was held prior to 6 A.D.
Read more: http://www.comereaso...p#ixzz32aGaPfs7
The resurrection only happened once but we do have evidence.
Didn't lazarus resurrect too?
And people are resucitated from heart failure, and even undetectable brain activity nowadays at times, iirc. As I stated EVEN IF WE ASSUMED FOR A MOMENT HE ACTUALLY HAD POWERS WAS TRULY DEAD, not misdiagnosed, AND ACTUALLY RESURRECTED that DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING. THAT IS NOT EVIDENCE FOR HIM BEING WHAT HE SAYS HE IS BUT MERELY EVIDENCE FOR HIM HAVING POWERS nothing more and nothing less.
For example take it this was a simulation, the one in control could show all sorts of 'miracles' yet he would be no god, godlike yes but not a one true god.
Edited by Castiel, 23 May 2014 - 11:33 PM.
Posted 23 May 2014 - 11:47 PM
Evidence is different than proof. Things such as the Big Bang only happen once. So does a murder and so does a miracle. The resurrection only happened once but we do have evidence.
vote
I highly doubt anyone considers what you've provided as legitimate evidence of Jesus's resurrection 2,000 years ago...
Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:30 AM
Evidence is different than proof. Things such as the Big Bang only happen once. So does a murder and so does a miracle. The resurrection only happened once but we do have evidence.
vote
I highly doubt anyone considers what you've provided as legitimate evidence of Jesus's resurrection 2,000 years ago...
It certainly is more evidence than your comment by a long shot.
vote
Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:33 AM
Castiel,
The earliest Icon in existence anywhere I discussed here
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662435
Who cares, but it matches the Shroud at 170 points. There are a few icons that were influenced by the Greek Gods who had short hair on a Christ figure. First century drawings in Roman Catacombs show Christ with long hair. I have a copy of this Icon.
http://www.longecity...-31#entry662677
The Gospels were written by four different people for four different audiences and four different purposes. What do you expect, four exact copies of the same thing? Just another copy off the printing press? That would have raised mu suspicion. They harmonize in an amazing way. See “The Life of Christ in Stereo,” by Johnston Mchenery for one of my favorite harmonies. You can get it from Amazon used.
Look at the man on the Shroud, he had the hell beat out of him and would have died several times over. That is the conclusion of the scientists who examined the shroud. Yes, people come back from the dead, my own father came back after being declared dead for over 30 minutes and, though I cant explain it, I did pray that he would come back. I didn’t believe it. However, he did not go through what the man on the shroud did. Believe what uou will. It is evidence and like all evidence must be accepted by faith.
Christianity teaches we will all be resurrected and yes Lazarus was resurrected by Christ. It also created quite a slur.
vote
Edited by shadowhawk, 24 May 2014 - 12:35 AM.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:35 AM
I don't know what you mean[the pantocrator icon] matches the shroud, the nose appears to be wider in the black and white shroud picture you showed, and the moustache appears thicker in the shroud as compared to the icon image.
The pantocrator icon does not appear to be older to that found in the news from april 2014 which claimed it was the oldest image of christ found yet. It along with another one mentioned in this 2014 news show christ with short hair. The other article also claims that the oldest images had short haired, we could discuss this with that author, but the latest news from last month show that the oldest image known appears to be with short hair which would be in agreements with the claims of the other article.
Regards greek gods, iirc, many like Zeus did have long hair. If most jews had short hair the earliest icons had short hair, and later ones had long hair, it is likely the latter ones were influenced by depictions of the gods.
The oldest known surviving example of the icon of Christ Pantocrator was painted in encaustic on panel in the sixth or seventh century , and survived the period of destruction of images during the Iconoclastic disputes that twice racked the Eastern church, 726 to 787 and 814 to 842-wiki
To make a legal ID from a picture it takes only 40 points to ID someone. The early painter must have seen the shroud.
So he was priviledged to see a shroud that disappeared through what seems like millenia only to reappear despite the fact that anyone who would preserve it would likely be christian and should have proudly showcased it the moment christianity stopped being persecuted and became an official religion.
You do know that the 3d render in that video looks vastly different from the pantocrator icon, no way you would confuse the two for the same person.
Christianity teaches we will all be resurrected and yes Lazarus was resurrected by Christ. It also created quite a slur.
If we are resurrected in some form it will likely be either the result of future civilization or some superintelligence, and will have nothing to do with these ancient religions, at most it will be coincidence that they said that would happen
Edited by Castiel, 24 May 2014 - 01:38 AM.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:47 AM
Castiel,
The take face recognition software just like they now do at airports to look for terrorists and other wanted individuals. The width of the eyes, nose head face. Lips etc.. If they have 40 points, they have a match. They did this with the face on the shroud and this Icon and they have a match on 170 points. I am not going to repeat the evidence I have already presemted.
The oldest known icon of Christ Pantocrator, encaustic on panel (Saint Catherine's Monastery). The two different facial expressions on either side may emphasize Christ's two natures as fully God and fully human. http://en.wikipedia....ist_Pantocrator
http://en.wikipedia....ine's_Monastery
http://www.skete.com...y&product_id=83
http://www.touregypt...therines2-1.htm
The shroud like many things in history is sketchy as to its travels. We know it was probably taken to France by the Crusaders when they ransacked Constantinople. It eventually ended up in Tours, under the care of the Roman Catholic Church. The newest carbon 14 dating puts it in the time of Christ. It is covered with pollen that comes only from the Jerusalem area and the flowers on the Shroud also come from that area and bloom during the time of the Passover. The wound marks match the historic descriptions found on the historical documents. It is the most scientifically examined relic in the world. But then I am repeating things gone over in detail before. If you don’t believe alright. This is about evidence for Christianly and I presented it. Next how was the image created?
Vote
Edited by shadowhawk, 24 May 2014 - 02:48 AM.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:56 AM
Is there any evidence for Zeus, or thor, or Apollo, or Allah, or scietology, or Vodoo, or the God emperor of Japan during WW2, or Baal, or the celestial teapot?
People will claim there is evidence, but realistically it's all human constructs. How can anyone know what they cannot know? They can't; Prophets are con artists or schizophrenics most likely, just like mormonism. There's no good reason to believe one unprovable proposition over another. Otherwise leprechauns and santa clause become possible
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:37 AM
Is there any evidence for Zeus, or thor, or Apollo, or Allah, or scietology, or Vodoo, or the God emperor of Japan during WW2, or Baal, or the celestial teapot?
People will claim there is evidence, but realistically it's all human constructs. How can anyone know what they cannot know? They can't; Prophets are con artists or schizophrenics most likely, just like mormonism. There's no good reason to believe one unprovable proposition over another. Otherwise leprechauns and santa clause become possible
I, of course, totally agree. However, this point has been brought up before, and, unfortunately, SH will simply ignore and give you a Fallacy Ticket.
I'm still confused as to why Jesus is albino and holding a Bible.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:38 AM
Is there any evidence for Zeus, or thor, or Apollo, or Allah, or scietology, or Vodoo, or the God emperor of Japan during WW2, or Baal, or the celestial teapot?
People will claim there is evidence, but realistically it's all human constructs. How can anyone know what they cannot know? They can't; Prophets are con artists or schizophrenics most likely, just like mormonism. There's no good reason to believe one unprovable proposition over another. Otherwise leprechauns and santa clause become possible
Is there evidence of anything? Yes and there is historical evidence for Christianity. What do you think evidence is? How do you know what you can know. How do you know there is no good reason to believe? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
vote
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:44 AM
Is there any evidence for Zeus, or thor, or Apollo, or Allah, or scietology, or Vodoo, or the God emperor of Japan during WW2, or Baal, or the celestial teapot?
People will claim there is evidence, but realistically it's all human constructs. How can anyone know what they cannot know? They can't; Prophets are con artists or schizophrenics most likely, just like mormonism. There's no good reason to believe one unprovable proposition over another. Otherwise leprechauns and santa clause become possible
Is there evidence of anything? Yes and there is historical evidence for Christianity. What do you think evidence is? How do you know what you can know. How do you know there is no good reason to believe? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
vote
Mormons claim there is historical evidence for mormonism. islam will claim there is historical evidence for them,etc. All religions give the same arguments you give now. At best one religion can be correct. In that case, the probability of any religion being correct is 1/(#of religions)i can't possibly provide any evidence for unprovable propositions. For example:
How do you know there is no good reason to believe in Leprechauns or Santa Clause? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
How do you know we don't live in the matrix? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
How do you know the flying spaghetti monster didn't create everything from a magical pasta steamer? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
Here's evidence for science: I just typed up this post on a computer, which uses the fundamental laws and equations created by physicists and logiticians. Science works and makes predictions. Religion doesn't make predictions and doesn't make anything tangible.
Edited by serp777, 24 May 2014 - 03:46 AM.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:48 AM
What is the history of the Shroud of Turin?
The most famous piece of archeological discovery that man will ever come to know is the Shroud of Turin. This fascinating piece of cloth has been the center of much controversy over many decades as to its authenticity as being the same Shroud our Lord and Savior was wrapped when He succumbed to brutal execution on a wooden cross to save the lives of mankind. I am going to take you on a journey through the history of the Shroud of Turin as we wind our way through the ages from the Hills of Golgotha.
As we begin our journey of the history of the Shroud of Turin, we begin in Jerusalem in the year AD 27-36. Peter and John, disciples of Christ, have visited the tomb in the morning and find the body of Jesus gone. The burial wrappings, however, have been left behind. John describes something he called a "sudarion" rolled up and in a place by itself.
Also, in that same year, a disciple called Thaddeus or Addai travels from Jerusalem to Edessa (400 miles north of Jerusalem), which is today called Urfa in Eastern Turkey. He visits the city's ruler, Abgar V, someone Jesus had reportedly been corresponding with. The request comes for Thaddeus to visit to heal Abgar of a disease and convert some of the citizens to Christianity. Thaddeus also brings with him a cloth which has the imprint of a man with Jesus' likeness. At this point in history, the cloth was called "The Cloth of Edessa." In AD 50, Abgar passes away and his eldest son succeeds him. His son reverts to paganism, and is responsible for the persecution of the Christians. The cloth is hidden inside the city's gates to ensure its safety from all the floods for which Edessa was known, or to make sure it is safe from all the persecutions. It is not known why the cloth was hidden away.
In the 6th Century, during repair of the walls of Edessa during a Persian invasion, the cloth was rediscovered and placed in a church built for it.
To continue on in our journey of the history of the Shroud of Turin, in AD-500-525, a manuscript is discovered where it is reported that Joseph of Arimathea, whose tomb Jesus' body was laid in, collected the blood of Jesus in the linen cloth that wrapped his body. He made note that he retrieved the blood in a headband and in a large sheet.
Another major discovery in the history of the Shroud of Turin, occurs around the year AD-600. In the Acts of Thaddeus, it is reported that Jesus wiped His face on a cloth, which was doubled in four and left His image on this cloth. Since it had to be folded, that would suggest the cloth was of substantial length.
In 944, Emperor Romanus sent an army to remove what was still known as the Edessa Cloth and transferred it to Constantinople, which is now Istanbul. In Constantinople, the cloth was sometimes ceremoniously unfurled, raised up like a banner. Crusaders looted the treasures of Constantinople and carried away many relics. The Cloth disappeared along with other priceless treasures. It was reported the cloth was taken to Athens, Greece.
The Turks capture Jerusalem, taking over the holy places, and the next known public reappearance occurred in Lirey, France where expositions of the Shroud were held. The authenticity of the Shroud was at question, so the expositions stopped. The Shroud was hidden away for 34 years.
It then made its journey from Lirey, France to become the property of the Dukes of Savoy in Austria and they, in turn, moved it to Chambery, England until the year 1578. It is there that it survived a major fire. It is reported that it possibly was consumed in the fire, yet, we discover later that the Shroud is moved to Turin, Italy. This is where it is now housed, and where it also escaped a fire in the year 1997. For obvious reasons, the Cloth of Edessa is now generally referred to as the Shroud of Turin.
If this is not the original burial cloth of our Lord and Savior, this is definitely an artifact, which our Heavenly Father desires to keep safe from harm. The cloth has gone through many hands and disasters, but comes through each one with minor damage to the cloth itself.
1. Century
Disciples of Jesus brought the shroud to Edessa (modern name “Urfa” in eastern Turkey) to King Abgar for safety reasons. It was placed above the city gate of Edessa.
2. Century
Abgar grandson turns back to the ancient religion believing in demons -the shroud is in danger now. For that reason it was bricked into the walls of the city and was vorgotten over the time.
year 525
The shroud was found around the year 525 together with the Veil the Volto Santo in the city walls of Edessa. It played a important rolle during the siege of the city in the year 544, as the historian Evagrius Scholastieus wrote in the year 594: "When they didn’t know what to do, they brought the image created God created which was not made by human hands ... ". This image of Jesus became a template for all representations of Jesus in art. So the shroud and the Veil where the baseline for all icons in history.
945
The emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire bought the shroud of Edessa and saved it from the advancing Arabs. The shroud is now kept in Constantinople.
year 1150
A Hungarian Embassy visited Constantinople. They showes him the holy shroud of Jesus Christ. A miniature of the shroud was made, which is currently in the National Library of Budapest called Codex Pray. The amazing thing is, that this picture shows L-shaped points (old burns) on a position where it is still visible today. This amazing image also shows Jesus with four fingers, like the shroud. This is a clear indication that this image whants to shows the shroud wich we call today the shroud of Turin.
13. April 1204
Constantinople was conquered by the Crusaders and then looted. The shroud gets lost.
year 1306
King Philip of France shatters the Order of the Templars. In protocols is mentioned that the templars where worship a linen which shows something like "the form of a male head with a big beard". The Templars, however, were able to keep their secret -is never revealed were the linen with the image was hidden. After years, a branch of the Knights Templar was found in England, on which an image with a face was “painted”, which looked simular to the the shroud.
year 1357
The widow of the knight Geoffroy de Charny had financial problems and decided to show the shroud public. Immediately many pilgrims went there and the shroud becomes so popular that the there a no daubt for historical evidence since that time. All evidence of the shroud are documented since this time periode.
year 1452
A descendant of the de Charny family gives the shroud to Louis of Savoy, where later a king of Italy was born in that family.
year 1532
(In 1502, the Shroud is given a permanent home in the Royal Chapel of Chambery Castle. In 1532, a fire breaks out in the chapel, which is seriously damaged by molten silver that fell on one corner of the folded cloth, resulting in eight roughly symmetrical burin patters and two burn lines running the length of the cloth.
year 1898
A photo is taken from the shroud the first time in history. It is a fact now that the original image is a kind of “photo negative”. The shroud becomes famous for scientists and ii is the start of the modern researchon the shroud.
year 1983
Former King Umberto of Italy gave the shroud as a present to the Vatican just before his death.
12. April 1997
The shroud almost became sacrificed by an arson attack. As shown, all evidence point out that the shroud is authentic. There is only a one person mentioned in history who was crucified, had a crown of thorns and who was also flagellate.. And now the is a second unexplainable cloth from the tomb of Jesus called the Volto Santo of Manoppello.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:52 AM
Shadowhawk
Suppose that this shroud thing is 100% true and did come into contact with the individual known as jesus.
Well, that still wouldn't prove anything about Christianity. It's just a piece of cloth. If they did a DNA analysis and showed that he had no father, that would evidence in favor of christianity.
Edited by serp777, 24 May 2014 - 03:52 AM.
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:55 AM
Is there any evidence for Zeus, or thor, or Apollo, or Allah, or scietology, or Vodoo, or the God emperor of Japan during WW2, or Baal, or the celestial teapot?
People will claim there is evidence, but realistically it's all human constructs. How can anyone know what they cannot know? They can't; Prophets are con artists or schizophrenics most likely, just like mormonism. There's no good reason to believe one unprovable proposition over another. Otherwise leprechauns and santa clause become possible
Is there evidence of anything? Yes and there is historical evidence for Christianity. What do you think evidence is? How do you know what you can know. How do you know there is no good reason to believe? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
vote
Mormons claim there is historical evidence for mormonism. islam will claim there is historical evidence for them,etc. All religions give the same arguments you give now. At best one religion can be correct. In that case, the probability of any religion being correct is 1/(#of religions)i can't possibly provide any evidence for unprovable propositions. For example:
How do you know there is no good reason to believe in Leprechauns or Santa Clause? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
How do you know we don't live in the matrix? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
How do you know the flying spaghetti monster didn't create everything from a magical pasta steamer? What is your evidence? Did you prove it. You have shown zero evidence
Here's evidence for science: I just typed up this post on a computer, which uses the fundamental laws and equations created by physicists and logiticians. Science works and makes predictions. Religion doesn't make predictions and doesn't make anything tangible.
So you have no evidence and you are throwing out all kinds of unrelated stuff hoping it es evidence for something.
vote
Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:57 AM
Shadowhawk
Suppose that this shroud thing is 100% true and did come into contact with the individual known as jesus.
Well, that still wouldn't prove anything about Christianity. It's just a piece of cloth. If they did a DNA analysis and showed that he had no father, that would evidence in favor of christianity.
in fact the blood on the shroud is XX
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