• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
* * - - - 10 votes

IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???

christianity religion spirituality

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1818 replies to this topic

#1141 Lewis Carroll

  • Guest
  • 170 posts
  • 44
  • Location:United States

Posted 04 July 2014 - 12:50 AM

Response to addx:

Yes my dictionary definition of evidence is correct.  We are speaking English.  I have presented evidence that fits the definition.

I have presented philosophical, logical, scientific, historical and physical evidence for Jesus Christ and Christianity.  Now you don’t think it is convicting but I fail to see any evidence you have presented except ad hominine attacks and logical fallacies.  You started off with them as has the other anti theists.  Now you want to make this an election.  Do we get to count the whole world?  My Church?  California?  Longecity?  In no case would you get 100% and in most cases you loose.  But, this is not about popularity.  It is about evidence for Christianity and you have been presented with some.

You claim to have knowledge, law, logic and science on your side.  What knowledge, law, logic or science?  An empty clam.  The proof is in the pudding.

Your attack on Cold Case Christianity is simply more name calling.  Much of law and evidence concerns Cold Case Evidence.  http://www.amazon.co...sl_6g1nwxmb30_b

Where is your cold case evidence?  None, just empty talk and name calling with no substance. :)

 
 

 

The raw audacity you have is baffling. Your logic is so flawed and your arguments so foundation-less, it's almost difficult to read your responses.

 

I highly doubt that a court of law would find any of your "scientific or physical evidence" as legitimate or worth consideration.

 

However, I do commend you for "sticking with it" as you continue to be outdebated over and over again. God is probably smiling down at you. You may be racking up "down votes" from the LongeCity members, but you are definitely racking in "up votes" from God... and that's all that matters.



#1142 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:00 AM

MainBrain: 

The raw audacity you have is baffling. Your logic is so flawed and your arguments so foundation-less, it's almost difficult to read your responses.

 

I highly doubt that a court of law would find any of your "scientific or physical evidence" as legitimate or worth consideration.

 

However, I do commend you for "sticking with it" as you continue to be outdebated over and over again. God is probably smiling down at you. You may be racking up "down votes" from the LongeCity members, but you are definitely racking in "up votes" from God... and that's all that matters.

 

Dear baffled.  This is nothing but name calling. Where is the bacon?


Edited by shadowhawk, 04 July 2014 - 01:02 AM.

  • dislike x 1

#1143 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:06 AM

The mind of God makes miracles possible.

 

 

 

 

 



#1144 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 04 July 2014 - 03:30 AM

Response to serp777:

As you know miracles only happen once or rarely.  Therefore a double blind study is the wrong tool to study them.  Try that on the big bang. :)    I can think of many other things as well such as most subjects of history.  Do a double blind on the existence or life of George Washington otherwise your thinking is flawed according to you. :)  

As for matter and the physical I suggest you read, THE MATTER MYTH, by Davies and Gribbin.  The unusual does happen and thought or consciousness is involved.
http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/0743290917

"Many people have rejected scientific values because they regard
materialism as a sterile and bleak philosophy, which reduces
human beings to automata and leaves no room for free will or
creativity. These people can take heart: materialism is dead."

'The Matter Myth', Davies & Gribbin, p.13

Shall I repost my definition of what a miracle is?  Obviously you don't know.

The reason it's the right tool is because it weeds out lies from possible alleged miracles. Thousands of people claim miracles, and most of them are lies in the best case for you. In fact the pope is going to be made a saint since some girl was cured of cancer after she was blessed by the pope.

 

Coincidence =/= miracle.

 

Other equal tools would be photographic evidence, or scientific studies , or un photoshopped video camera output. The miracles you have proposed are based on hearsay.

 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence in the words of Richard dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Youtube videos, lectures, and words do not count as evidence of miracles, which you cannot seem to grasp. 

 

For example-

 

 

and don't worry there's more!

 

http://www.collectiv...ien-abductions/

 

Now I have provided equivalent evidence to you. Therefore alien abductions. How do alien abductions fit into christianity? The reason this is not off topic is because it's supposed to show you that the type of evidence you have given is inherently untrustworthy and flawed, not to mention in contradiction to Christianity.

 

 

 

"Do a double blind on the existence or life of George Washington otherwise your thinking is flawed according to you."

This is a gigantic straw man; it is invalid because you could use this type of argument to justify any and all historical evidence as truth. Im sure you would agree much of historical evidence is wrong. The more you go back in time, the more inaccurate historical data becomes. It does not mean it's wrong, but to justify claims as extraordinary as religion requires more than just historical evidence. 

 

Your argument presupposes that Christian historical evidence is just as valid and as unbiased historical evidence about George Washington, which you have not established. You've created a false dilemma--that we need to accept historical evidence as valid or not.

 

Furthermore, The big bang has significant mathematical and scientific evidence from the LHC, astronomy, and inflationary models. Give me some models of miracles, or give me some photographic evidence, or give me some predictions, or give me a concrete result of Christianity. 


Edited by serp777, 04 July 2014 - 03:31 AM.


#1145 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 04 July 2014 - 03:37 AM

The mind of God makes miracles possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As soon as it said "There must be some local hidden variable", it was definitely flawed. He offers 0 mathetmatical evidence and is therefore simply speculating. 

 

Currently QM is not complete since there is no theory of everything. There is no scientific evidence that local hidden variables even exist, or that QM requires hidden variables in the first place.

 

Probabilities exist in the realm of materialism still. Probabilities cause physical outcomes and are therefore still connected to materialism. There is no evidence that probabilities are anything but material.


Edited by serp777, 04 July 2014 - 03:37 AM.

  • Agree x 1

#1146 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 04 July 2014 - 05:15 AM

Using a double blind study demands repeatability and it can not test things that only happen once or rarely.  Wrong tool.

As I said there are many things it cant test.  You on the other hand insists it can. :)

You can’t demand photographic evidence if you have no camera, film or subject.  For instance you can’t demand a photograph of George Washington to prove he was the first president.  Wrong tool just like your demand for a double blind.  On top of this nonsense you in caps repeat it!!!  Next you call my objection a straw man!!!

I gave you a couple of videos on quantum physics to show demanding material evidence to prove the impossibility of miracles (highly unlikely) is not modern science.  The quantum world is anything but certain.  It depends on how you look at it.  Your equivalent evidence is a video on aliens!!!!  :) I don’t need to comment on that.

Demand a double blind study on the Big Bang is my point which you seem not to comprehend.  Wrong tool.

If you accept the mind of God or any other mind influencing the QM world we now know is at the root of nature, than it is not impossible that it was the purpose of that mind to raise Christ from the dead and be at the roots of other miraculous events,


 



#1147 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 04 July 2014 - 05:28 AM

EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE

 

 

 

 

 



#1148 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 04 July 2014 - 07:12 AM

Your george washington example is still a huge strawman. You're assuming that all historical evidence is equally valid. NOPE. George Washington's historical evidence is more credible because there is no bias about his existence and it was recent. Given the huge number of religions, a motive for bias is quite obvious. Your extremely simple analysis of my argument does not suffice and your black and white analysis is inappropriate.

Again your big bang example is not relevant-- the big bang theory makes predictions and has mathematical models, in addition to numerous astronomy observations

Furthermore the large hadron collider repeats events trillions of times to try and get those almost astronomically low probability particles like the higgs boson. Its called 5 sigma evidence. Producing a higgs boson is arguably a miracle. That is much better than a double blind study. The higgs is additional evidence of the big bang and part of its predictions. Christianity has none of this similar evidence and so you again use a strawman by trying to equate the two.

A youtube video is not extroadinary evidence. That was the point of the alien evidence. The fact that you don't feel you need to comment on it reflects your inherent incredulity.

#1149 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 04 July 2014 - 07:51 AM

Response to addx:

Yes my dictionary definition of evidence is correct.  We are speaking English.  I have presented evidence that fits the definition.


The dictionary definition, which defines language. I told you that you abuse language.

Language is not a system for scientific proof.

A coherent, understandable sentence may not be logical.


Why does law have a more strict definition of "evidence". Because law is a system that we expect to provide us with justice and it needs to be strictly defined in order to have a chance at that.

Language however is a system that we expect to provide us with ability to communicate and it needs to be loosely defined in order to have a chance at that.

So, you're using a dictionary reference of "evidence" which is only correct within the scope of language, grammar and coherence.

Within the scope of grammar, when you say "I present evidence" and provide some of your interpretations, you are grammatically understood and what is said is accepted as a coherently expressed opinion which may or not be correct, but is understood in meaning. We have understood that your propose what you believe is evidence and you have used the correct word to convery your proposition to a scientific authority

Within the scope of law - a scientific authority, when you say "I present evidence", the opposing advocate rises and says "objection:, hearsay" and your evidence is rejected by the prearranged and well known coherent logical rules that are inherently accepted by the parties submitting to the scientific and logical authority of the system of law and its process of producing a black/white answer to a question.



 

Where is your cold case evidence?  None, just empty talk and name calling with no substance. :)


I agree, I am also empty on ignorance, I have no evidence for aliens either and I'm all out of fairy dust, but take my word for it, fairy dust really makes you fly high!

Edited by addx, 04 July 2014 - 07:53 AM.


#1150 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:05 PM

SHATTERING THE MYTH THAT CHRIST WAS MADE UP BY OTHER RELIGIONS
http://www.amazon.co...the christ myth

 


https://www.youtube....RTkCONbYFo#t=18









 


Edited by shadowhawk, 05 July 2014 - 10:06 PM.


#1151 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:51 PM

Response to serp777:

Scientific evidence which uses the double blind is repeatable.  Some evidence is not repeatable.  Yet it is still good evidence.  The scientific method itself is not proved.  All truth is not proved by the scientific method and there are limits to science.  One time events occur all the time.  This is not a straw man.  Do you know what a straw man is?

The Big Bang is a one time occurrence.  The higgs boson was predicated decades ago and no more support your argument than the existence of a rock.  I am not against a double blind study, just your misuse of it.  Now it appears you are going to misuse the higgs boson in a case against miracles.  You want to use the hadron collider to prove or disprove the resurrection and demand the same kind of evidence.  And then you accuse me of a straw man.  Insane.

Finally you are committing the media fallacy repeatedly.  http://www.longecity...-39#entry672622

Lets try this again.  I can give it to you in another form if you are allergic to certain kinds of media.  The point is your extraordinary evidence stance is nonsense.





 



#1152 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 05 July 2014 - 11:11 PM

addx:
I agree, I am also empty on ignorance, I have no evidence for aliens either and I'm all out of fairy dust, but take my word for it, fairy dust really makes you fly high!


This explains your name calling.  Fairy dust!  I take your word for it, you must know..
You are empty of lack of knowledge or information???  Ignorance.  Does that mean you are full of it as well?
 

#1153 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:49 AM

Response to serp777:

Scientific evidence which uses the double blind is repeatable.  Some evidence is not repeatable.  Yet it is still good evidence.  The scientific method itself is not proved.  All truth is not proved by the scientific method and there are limits to science.  One time events occur all the time.  This is not a straw man.  Do you know what a straw man is?

The Big Bang is a one time occurrence.  The higgs boson was predicated decades ago and no more support your argument than the existence of a rock.  I am not against a double blind study, just your misuse of it.  Now it appears you are going to misuse the higgs boson in a case against miracles.  You want to use the hadron collider to prove or disprove the resurrection and demand the same kind of evidence.  And then you accuse me of a straw man.  Insane.

Finally you are committing the media fallacy repeatedly.  http://www.longecity...-39#entry672622

Lets try this again.  I can give it to you in another form if you are allergic to certain kinds of media.  The point is your extraordinary evidence stance is nonsense.





 

"The scientific method itself is not proved. "

It pretty much is. The creation of the computer you used to post this depends on the scientific method, in addition to your internet connection, in addition to medicine, in addition to cars and vehicles, in addition to most every other concrete human invention in the recent centuries. Religion produces nothing tangible, and makes no predictions unlike science.

 

" Some evidence is not repeatable.  Yet it is still good evidence. "

 

Show me some examples of science that is not repeatable, and is good evidence.  

 

Do you know what a straw man is?

 

Yes, it's when you frequently paint an incorrect version of my argument, defeat it, and then claim to have defeated the original argument which was actually completely different. Read through the posts when I have pointed it out numerous times.  I will go back and cite them if you wish.

 

For example, you literally do it again right here, which is ironic as hell since you called my statement insane-

 

"Now it appears you are going to misuse the higgs boson in a case against miracles.  You want to use the hadron collider to prove or disprove the resurrection and demand the same kind of evidence.  "

 

Now this is a complete mischaracterization. I never claimed that I wanted the LHC to prove resurrection (you're putting words in my mouth again), just that proof of something as unlikely as the higgs boson required 5 sigma evidence and trillions of collisions. Actually you did get one part of my argument correct, albeit a small part, I do want similar evidence--significant trials and repeatable experiment. In addition, I said the higgs boson is evidence for the big bang, but i did not specify how reliable that evidence was. The higgs boson is relevant to the big bang, because it first emerged a short time after the big bang, in order to give particles rest mass, which would affect the eventual shape of the universe. The standard model relies on the higgs and makes many predictions about the big bang, such as the CMB. 

 

 

Your false analogies do not prove my evidence is faulty. Comparing the higgs boson as evidence of the big bang to a rock is beyond fallacious since the two are completely separate. 

 

It would be like saying this--Christianity is no more supported by your arguments than a teapot is. 

 

The higgs boson also shows that big claims require a lot of evidence in order to be reliable, regardless of what WLC has to say about it. Do you understand 5 sigma evidence? 

 

Hearsay and lectures from WLC are not good evidence. Hearsay and lectures would not be proof of anything scientific. 

 

And certainly, even if the resurrection were true somehow, it would still not prove christianity. It would still be within the realm of possibilities that a biological mechanism could lead cells to very rarely spontaneously regenerate after necrosis through some genetic abnormality. Or perhaps it would be proof for judiasm instead of Christianity since Christianity was created after the fact by the council of Nicea. 

 

"All truth is not proved by the scientific method and there are limits to science. "

 

How do you know that there is a limit to science? This is a hasty generalization of the worst kind. How can you know what you cannot know? Perhaps science is limitless, like mathematics is, or perhaps it can fully explain everything, or perhaps it is unknowable whether it has a limit or not. You haven't provided any evidence for your assumptions.

 

 

"I can give it to you in another form if you are allergic to certain kinds of media."

I'll give you some more ancient aliens evidence since all youtube videos and generic websites are all valid and trustworthy.  How does Christianity fit in with ancient aliens, since we are accepting anything now?



#1154 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:26 AM

The computer is the product of intelligence (ID) and science without ID did not create it.  Science is a process not a position and it creates nothing and by its conclusion history is usually wrong.  The history of science is full of examples and If you don’t know that then study.  That also goes for one time and rare occurrences.  
Google limitation of Science.  I could give yo a long list of books, bookmarks, videos and notes but I am afraid you suffer a media fallacy.

You do not use double blind methods on one time occurrences.  That does not mean one time occurrences or rare occurrences are false just because some scientific tool cant test for them..

Nothing I have said is a straw man.  You are the one who brought up the LHC why.  Immaterial nonsense.  The Big Bang and Higgs were also brought up by you as if they were some way relevant to miracles.  What total nonsense.  It is as relevant as a rock but obviously you are not getting it.

Your theory of the resurrection is interesting and amusing but your statement on the Council of Nicea is embarrassingly false.  You obviously have never read any of the anti Nicean whitings.  I have over 14 volumes of them in my own personnel library.  Nicea did not invent the Church, the Trinity or Christianity.  It started with Jesus Christ, the twelve apostles and the people.  They were all Jews and the roots of the Church are found there.



#1155 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 06 July 2014 - 04:26 AM

The computer is the product of intelligence (ID) and science without ID did not create it.  Science is a process not a position and it creates nothing and by its conclusion history is usually wrong.  The history of science is full of examples and If you don’t know that then study.  That also goes for one time and rare occurrences.  
Google limitation of Science.  I could give yo a long list of books, bookmarks, videos and notes but I am afraid you suffer a media fallacy.

You do not use double blind methods on one time occurrences.  That does not mean one time occurrences or rare occurrences are false just because some scientific tool cant test for them..

Nothing I have said is a straw man.  You are the one who brought up the LHC why.  Immaterial nonsense.  The Big Bang and Higgs were also brought up by you as if they were some way relevant to miracles.  What total nonsense.  It is as relevant as a rock but obviously you are not getting it.

Your theory of the resurrection is interesting and amusing but your statement on the Council of Nicea is embarrassingly false.  You obviously have never read any of the anti Nicean whitings.  I have over 14 volumes of them in my own personnel library.  Nicea did not invent the Church, the Trinity or Christianity.  It started with Jesus Christ, the twelve apostles and the people.  They were all Jews and the roots of the Church are found there.

"It is as relevant as a rock but obviously you are not getting it."

 

Yes, i don't get it because it's illogical. Furthermore, then your evidence for christianity is as relevant as a teapot. You continue to use laughably false analogies that say absolutely nothing. 

 

"That also goes for one time and rare occurrences.  "

 

Show me any science that was validated by one hearsay data point. Please im actually very curious what evidence you could possibly provide. Good luck. 

 

"The Big Bang and Higgs were also brought up by you as if they were some way relevant to miracles. "

 

Ok, again this is another strawman. I described how the metric for evidence used for the higgs shows that the evidence for miracles is comparatively insufficient. I asked you if you knew what 5 sigma evidence was, since that is what is required to  sufficiently prove the existence of undiscovered particles. The point, again, was that big claims, like those about particles, require a lot of evidence. That would include miracles because they are inherently from biased religious people. In science you try to prove things wrong in addition to proving them right. You keep ignoring this for some reason, im not sure why. 

 

Furthermore, you're the one who brought up the big bang along with your ridiculous george washington example which you did not respond to my counter argument about. You're the one who used it as an example initially. 

 

"The computer is the product of intelligence (ID) and science without ID did not create it."

 

Ok, so what?  Irrelevant. The point was that science makes predictions and produces concrete objects that perform various functions, and religion hasn't done anything of the sort, which gives the scientific method orders of magnitude more credibility. The scientific method works, which is why you can post these arguments. It's the most reliable tool we have from distinguishing fiction from fact. 

 

Again, nobody knows what the limits of science are, because no one knows the full extent of science. That's why people still do science. What total nonsense. 

 

"Google limitation of Science.  "

Google why christianity is false.

 

To know the limitation of science you would have to see the future, unless you're claiming that humanity has already mastered the full extent of science, which would be beyond crazy. 

 

"Nothing I have said is a straw man."

Except your complete mischaracterization  of my argument, which I bolded so you could see it. It seems that you missed it completely though.

 

"The history of science is full of examples and If you don’t know that then study.  That also goes for one time and rare occurrences.  "

No, you should study the scientific method: science is done by repeatability and by repetitive experiment. When developing a new drug for example, you don't just test it on one person and say AHA, therefore I know the full ramifications of the drug. It would be like trying to argue that the pope could cure cancer since he blessed one girl in south America, and coincidentally she had a remission in the following weeks.  One alleged data point is not evidence.

 

And since it happened once, then by your logic it must be a miracle and good evidence that the pope can cure cancer. 

 

"I could give yo a long list of books, bookmarks, videos and notes but I am afraid you suffer a media fallacy."

I have never used a media fallacy. You've used the fallacy fallacy and made a red herring. 



#1156 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:53 AM

Again, one time or rare unrepeatable occurrences happen all the time.  I showed you here and in the first section where consciousness or thought seems to be the ground of being in the quantum state.  I earlier spent a great bit of time discussing the quantum eraser.  I am not going to revisit that now except to say that things like chaos theory note the influence of the smallest things on what happens.   If there is a God, then the resurrection is possible.  If not then you are forced to come up with your own faith denying the resurrection.  But science did not, and is incapable of, denying miracles.  Over again, science is a process not a position.

The Higgs did not show the evidence for miracles were insignificant!   What utter nonsense.  Wrong tools again for the subject under consideration.  You have a severe case of scientism, not science.

You brought the computer up and now you say its irrelevant!  What is this gobligoop!

You claim to have bolded where I committed a straw man fallacy but I fail to see any bold of anything I said.  It is not there.

"scientific method: science is done by repeatability and by repetitive experiment,"  you say.  Any idiot knows that and I never questioned it.  But there are things that do not lend themselves to repeatability.  That is why you cant do a double blind study of many non repetitive things.  This is like arguing with someone with a thought disorder.  That is what I have said over and over.

Finally you bring up the pope!  Talk about a straw man.


Edited by shadowhawk, 06 July 2014 - 05:56 AM.

  • dislike x 1

#1157 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 06 July 2014 - 06:19 AM

POST RESURRECTION APPEARANCES IN JOHN

 

 

 

 

 

 


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#1158 twc111

  • Guest
  • 17 posts
  • 4
  • Location:New eng
  • NO

Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:35 PM

 



The argument is deductively valid--i.e., you're not going to be able to wiggle your way out of it. You lost the debate, but you're still refusing to concede the point.

 

 

 

 This quote of yours demonstrates of what I see is the big obstacle of we human have when attempting to  know reality. Are you more invested in winning a debate or are you wanting to gain understand know the truth!

 

   I have been in, a guest of and participator of many debates. I see it as a playtime for some who enjoy bouncing around words, ideas in a way to subdue the opponent. I find in my short time experiencing the intellectual world, the similarities to the muscle bound weight lifters were amazing. One practices words and how to use them in an defensive offensive manner to prove their intellect while the other flexes and maybe a wrestling match.

 

   My point is that Truth or Reality will never be revealed where overbearing ego is present. Think tanks will only become viable when no agenda is  attempting to be proved or unproved.When you have humanistic Scientist dogmatic against God, Spirit-----and the other side religious zealots all u have is a all in wrestling match. Whoever wins means NOTHING-


  • Good Point x 1

#1159 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:58 PM

As if the Catholics would recognize miracles in other religions LOL


  • Enjoying the show x 1

#1160 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 06 July 2014 - 06:03 PM

@ Serp

Shadowhawk only recently learned of null hypotheses from me. Of course, since it is new information to him that does not support his religious beliefs, and because his positions are absolutely immovable no matter what new information he encouters, he ignores the existence and usefulness of the null hypothesis.

#1161 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 06 July 2014 - 06:21 PM


 

The argument is deductively valid--i.e., you're not going to be able to wiggle your way out of it. You lost the debate, but you're still refusing to concede the point.
 

 
 
 This quote of yours demonstrates of what I see is the big obstacle of we human have when attempting to  know reality. Are you more invested in winning a debate or are you wanting to gain understand know the truth!
 

   I have been in, a guest of and participator of many debates. I see it as a playtime for some who enjoy bouncing around words, ideas in a way to subdue the opponent. I find in my short time experiencing the intellectual world, the similarities to the muscle bound weight lifters were amazing. One practices words and how to use them in an defensive offensive manner to prove their intellect while the other flexes and maybe a wrestling match.

 

   My point is that Truth or Reality will never be revealed where overbearing ego is present. Think tanks will only become viable when no agenda is  attempting to be proved or unproved.When you have humanistic Scientist dogmatic against God, Spirit-----and the other side religious zealots all u have is a all in wrestling match. Whoever wins means NOTHING-

Philosophy and logic are riddled with argumentation by their very natures. Sometimes extremely useful things come of it. The scientific method is one such product. Rationalism heavily relies on argumentation. None of the moral philosophies would exist without debates. Logicians spend their lives poring over proofs and arguing over methods of reasoning. Philosophers of science are constantly debating how we should do science, what effects our own inherent biases have on experiments and result interpretation, etc. It all ery much does have meaning


I'm sorry but your sentiments are naive and poorly presented.
  • Agree x 1

#1162 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 06 July 2014 - 07:33 PM

Again, one time or rare unrepeatable occurrences happen all the time.  I showed you here and in the first section where consciousness or thought seems to be the ground of being in the quantum state.  I earlier spent a great bit of time discussing the quantum eraser.  I am not going to revisit that now except to say that things like chaos theory note the influence of the smallest things on what happens.   If there is a God, then the resurrection is possible.  If not then you are forced to come up with your own faith denying the resurrection.  But science did not, and is incapable of, denying miracles.  Over again, science is a process not a position.

The Higgs did not show the evidence for miracles were insignificant!   What utter nonsense.  Wrong tools again for the subject under consideration.  You have a severe case of scientism, not science.

You brought the computer up and now you say its irrelevant!  What is this gobligoop!

You claim to have bolded where I committed a straw man fallacy but I fail to see any bold of anything I said.  It is not there.

"scientific method: science is done by repeatability and by repetitive experiment,"  you say.  Any idiot knows that and I never questioned it.  But there are things that do not lend themselves to repeatability.  That is why you cant do a double blind study of many non repetitive things.  This is like arguing with someone with a thought disorder.  That is what I have said over and over.

Finally you bring up the pope!  Talk about a straw man.

AN example of my position, the pope, cannot be a strawman LOL, because it's not about your argument. Do you know what a strawman is? That was to show you the fallacy of accepting a single data point as good evidence. Again, your use of the fallacy fallacy is extremely prevalent. 

 

"Again, one time or rare unrepeatable occurrences happen all the time."

 

A rare unrepeatable occurance is a contradiction. If something is rare it means it has a low probability of occuring, but that doesn't mean it can't occur again.Show me good evidence that relies on one data point of hearsay please. That is your burden of proof.

 

Assuming miracles do exist, there's no reason why they shouldn't occur through a physical mechanism, which means if they do exist, they would be repeatable. Saying "God magic" is pointless and an intellectual cop out. For example, the resurrection might have some evidence if medical studies showed that some cells could sometimes spontaneously regenerate after necrosis. THat would be repeatable evidence that could be scientifically verified. 

 

"You brought the computer up and now you say its irrelevant!  What is this gobligoop!"

This is actually a strawman. I said your argument about ID creating computers was irrelevant, not that my computer example was irrelevant. Please read my argument before responding. 

 

"The Higgs did not show the evidence for miracles were insignificant!"

 

Another strawman. I never claimed this. I'd recommend re reading my arguments to gain a better understanding. I said the amount of evidence used to prove the higgs, which is a rare occurance, shows that an equivalent amount of evidence would be required to prove that miracles occured. This is because, again, religions are extremely biased. Thousands of religions claim miracles, and thousands have alleged evidence.

 

For example, miracles from islam--

http://www.miraclesofislam.com/

 

By your logic, we should accept miracles of Islam and all the other religions as well, since you make the preposterous claim that evidence of one data point is good enough since "one time occurrences happen all the time." Just because one time occurrences happen all the time does not mean there is good evidence for them, particularly for something as biased as religion. I showed you islam miracles; Perhaps you should convert. 

 

"You claim to have bolded where I committed a straw man fallacy but I fail to see any bold of anything I said.  It is not there."

 

Ok, short term memory seems to be an issue here, but let me cite it.  You say:

 

"Now it appears you are going to misuse the higgs boson in a case against miracles.  You want to use the hadron collider to prove or disprove the resurrection and demand the same kind of evidence.  "

Now I say: 

 

Now this is a complete mischaracterization. I never claimed that I wanted the LHC to prove resurrection (you're putting words in my mouth again)

 

"You have a severe case of scientism, not science."

A red herring plain and simple. 

 

" If there is a God, then the resurrection is possible. "

Resurrection is not necessarily possible if there is a God, since God decides what is possible and what is not, or maybe he is actually not all powerful. That would depend on your definition of God. The fact that you think you know God's mind is based in no evidence at all. 

 

" If not then you are forced to come up with your own faith denying the resurrection."

You don't need faith to deny santa clause, or leprechauns, or the celestial teapot. Denial does not require faith LOL. Let me cite your continued use of:

 

"Argument from ignorance (Latinargumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. "


  • like x 1
  • Agree x 1

#1163 twc111

  • Guest
  • 17 posts
  • 4
  • Location:New eng
  • NO

Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:55 AM



 



'I'm sorry but your sentiments are naive and poorly presented.'

 

    I agree totally. Its been years since i have been addicted to intellectualize defined by EGO.I loved all that attention jealousy competition getting that next research funding, Acting like a human but being moved inside by a urge, like a machine, kissing up to others who I wanted to be. The power of my intellectualize allowed me to hide my emotion feelings. Things like love,home, life joys were not mine to be filled but only reasoned.  I would get a joy just to trick someone with a new way *I had with words. What a power. But that  was long ago----i got out---so believe me i am fully aware at  times here I am out of my league.

 

                  But I dont back down. Not when it comes to some things that is the essence of life or love. I see life love and God Spirit as inseparable. Involvement in extreme EGO will never understand Spiritual world--like a passing  warm wind at night or a quick glance from a beautiful person your way will allow you a feel of comfort or excitement but its only a Shadow that soon passes.

 

  So yes I understand some words I use dont fit and even my spelling may be off. We are all human and wacos exist everywhere, and until we see the main waco is us not them---WE HAVE NOT BEGUN TO LEARN



#1164 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:15 AM

@ Serp

Shadowhawk only recently learned of null hypotheses from me. Of course, since it is new information to him that does not support his religious beliefs, and because his positions are absolutely immovable no matter what new information he encouters, he ignores the existence and usefulness of the null hypothesis.

Joke.  :)



#1165 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:17 AM

timeline.gif


  • unsure x 1

#1166 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:35 AM

serp777
"Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. "

I made no argument from ignorance.  Nonsense.  The rest of the post is off topic or simply an invitation to a pissing contest.  No thanks.


  • dislike x 1
  • Disagree x 1

#1167 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:54 AM

serp777
"Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. "

I made no argument from ignorance.  Nonsense.  The rest of the post is off topic or simply an invitation to a pissing contest.  No thanks.

 

No counter arguments provided. Nonsense. 


  • Agree x 1

#1168 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:59 AM

timeline.gif

What a joke  :)


  • Needs references x 1

#1169 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:12 AM

On different occasions and under various circumstances different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead.

This is a fact which is virtually universally acknowledged by scholars, for the following reasons:

1. Paul’s list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances guarantees that such appearances occurred.

Paul tells us that Jesus appeared to his chief disciple Peter, then to the inner circle of disciples known as the Twelve; then he appeared to a group of 500 disciples at once, then to his younger brother James, who up to that time was apparently not a believer, then to all the apostles. Finally, Paul adds, “he appeared also to me,” at the time when Paul was still a persecutor of the early Jesus movement (I Cor. 15.5-8). Given the early date of Paul’s information as well as his personal acquaintance with the people involved, these appearances cannot be dismissed as mere legends.

2. The appearance narratives in the Gospels provide multiple, independent attestation of the appearances.

For example, the appearance to Peter is attested by Luke and Paul; the appearance to the Twelve is attested by Luke, John, and Paul; and the appearance to the women is attested by Matthew and John. The appearance narratives span such a breadth of independent sources that it cannot be reasonably denied that the earliest disciples did have such experiences. Thus, even the skeptical German New Testament critic Gerd Lüdemann concludes, “It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’ death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ.”


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#1170 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:08 AM



 


'I'm sorry but your sentiments are naive and poorly presented.'
 
    I agree totally. Its been years since i have been addicted to intellectualize defined by EGO.I loved all that attention jealousy competition getting that next research funding, Acting like a human but being moved inside by a urge, like a machine, kissing up to others who I wanted to be. The power of my intellectualize allowed me to hide my emotion feelings. Things like love,home, life joys were not mine to be filled but only reasoned.  I would get a joy just to trick someone with a new way *I had with words. What a power. But that  was long ago----i got out---so believe me i am fully aware at  times here I am out of my league.
 
                  But I dont back down. Not when it comes to some things that is the essence of life or love. I see life love and God Spirit as inseparable. Involvement in extreme EGO will never understand Spiritual world--like a passing  warm wind at night or a quick glance from a beautiful person your way will allow you a feel of comfort or excitement but its only a Shadow that soon passes.
 
  So yes I understand some words I use dont fit and even my spelling may be off. We are all human and wacos exist everywhere, and until we see the main waco is us not them---WE HAVE NOT BEGUN TO LEARN


You are involved with your ego, all that patronizing about life, love, god, spirit and smugly implying how enlightened you are compared to those who have different beliefs, all of that is part of your ego. That is your ego speaking to us.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing everything. There is something wrong with being a pompous hypocrite.
  • Enjoying the show x 1





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: christianity, religion, spirituality

58 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 58 guests, 0 anonymous users