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IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???

christianity religion spirituality

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#1171 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:11 AM

On different occasions and under various circumstances different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead.
This is a fact which is virtually universally acknowledged by scholars, for the following reasons:
1. Pauls list of eyewitnesses to Jesus resurrection appearances guarantees that such appearances occurred.
Paul tells us that Jesus appeared to his chief disciple Peter, then to the inner circle of disciples known as the Twelve; then he appeared to a group of 500 disciples at once, then to his younger brother James, who up to that time was apparently not a believer, then to all the apostles. Finally, Paul adds, he appeared also to me, at the time when Paul was still a persecutor of the early Jesus movement (I Cor. 15.5-8). Given the early date of Pauls information as well as his personal acquaintance with the people involved, these appearances cannot be dismissed as mere legends.
2. The appearance narratives in the Gospels provide multiple, independent attestation of the appearances.
For example, the appearance to Peter is attested by Luke and Paul; the appearance to the Twelve is attested by Luke, John, and Paul; and the appearance to the women is attested by Matthew and John. The appearance narratives span such a breadth of independent sources that it cannot be reasonably denied that the earliest disciples did have such experiences. Thus, even the skeptical German New Testament critic Gerd Lüdemann concludes, It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ.




The gospels are independent sources? LOOOOOOOOOOOOL
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#1172 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:28 AM

Laughing Man. Where are your sources?  :)


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#1173 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:31 AM

Sources for what? Do you even know what that word means?

#1174 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:41 AM

You are also free, at any time, to demonstrate that anything in the New Testament was written by a contemporary of Jesus. Not that that would matter much. Your argument is basically that it must be true because some people wrote it. That works for the Avesta too you know.
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#1175 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 06:48 PM

Sources for what? Do you even know what that word means?

"any thing or place from which something comes, arises, or is obtained; origin"  Where are your sources of evidence to the contrary?  :)

 



#1176 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:44 PM

You are also free, at any time, to demonstrate that anything in the New Testament was written by a contemporary of Jesus. Not that that would matter much. Your argument is basically that it must be true because some people wrote it. That works for the Avesta too you know.

I have earlier discussed the manuscript evidence so I will not repeat it again.  It is overwhelming and beyond compare.  I know you don’t read, listen to tapes, watch videos or movies and unless you experience something first hand it has no evidence.  For those who do, they might find the below helpful.

The New Testament Documents, FF Bruce
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0802822193
Is the New Testament Reliable?
http://www.str.org/a...le#.U7rtBbE5sTA
Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability
http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
 Hasn’t the New Testament Changed?
http://www.josh.org/...tament-changed/
How reliable are the Bible documents?
http://www.facingthe...g/documents.php
Historicity of the New Testament
http://www.theopedia...e_New_Testament
The Historicity of the New Testament
http://www.bethinkin...e-new-testament
Earliest New Testament Document Discovered?
http://humblesmith.w...ent-discovered/
Center For The Study of New Testament Manuscripts
http://www.csntm.org/
 


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#1177 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:40 PM


Sources for what? Do you even know what that word means?

"any thing or place from which something comes, arises, or is obtained; origin"  Where are your sources of evidence to the contrary?  :)
 

Haha, contrary of what?

#1178 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:49 PM


You are also free, at any time, to demonstrate that anything in the New Testament was written by a contemporary of Jesus. Not that that would matter much. Your argument is basically that it must be true because some people wrote it. That works for the Avesta too you know.

I have earlier discussed the manuscript evidence so I will not repeat it again.  It is overwhelming and beyond compare.  I know you dont read, listen to tapes, watch videos or movies and unless you experience something first hand it has no evidence.  For those who do, they might find the below helpful.

The New Testament Documents, FF Bruce
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0802822193
Is the New Testament Reliable?
http://www.str.org/a...le#.U7rtBbE5sTA
Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability
http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
 Hasnt the New Testament Changed?
http://www.josh.org/...tament-changed/
How reliable are the Bible documents?
http://www.facingthe...g/documents.php
Historicity of the New Testament
http://www.theopedia...e_New_Testament
The Historicity of the New Testament
http://www.bethinkin...e-new-testament
Earliest New Testament Document Discovered?
http://humblesmith.w...ent-discovered/
Center For The Study of New Testament Manuscripts
http://www.csntm.org/
 

I specifically mentioned evidence that anything in the New Testament was written by a contemporary of Jesus, which is something that none of your sources have because such evidence does not yet exist.

There is also zero evidence that any supernatural events in the New Testament actually occurred. Nevermind that the gospels have anonymous authors. Demonstrating who wrote what part of which letter or gospel and when they wrote it are only evidences that it was written by these people at these certain times in history.

#1179 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:16 PM

A contemporary of Jesus?  Yes most of the entire new testament was written by contemporary followers or people who were there.  It is the copies of their writings which we have which are later.  We have hundreds of them.  The scriptures are fantastic evidence but as I have pointed out, not the only evidence.


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#1180 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:20 PM

 

 

Sources for what? Do you even know what that word means?

"any thing or place from which something comes, arises, or is obtained; origin"  Where are your sources of evidence to the contrary?  :)
 

Haha, contrary of what?

 

The evidence and sources presented.  You have nothing.



#1181 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:45 PM

The gospels are copies of eyewitness testimony ... because they say so? Or because you or some other Christian says so?

The best evidence that the gospels are copies are the synoptic gospels themselves, but that's because they have common sources and are colorfully inventive versions of their common sources. There is no evidence suggesting that the gospels do not have a single source, meaning they could have all ultimately come from one document that has been lost or destroyed.

#1182 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:52 PM


 

 

Sources for what? Do you even know what that word means?

"any thing or place from which something comes, arises, or is obtained; origin"  Where are your sources of evidence to the contrary?  :)
 
Haha, contrary of what?
 
The evidence and sources presented.  You have nothing.

At the time you asked for my sources, all I had done was laugh at your assertion that the gospels are independent sources. I made no argument (no argument was necessary) and I didn't even ask that you demonstrate how they are independent. If I asked you 'where is the evidence they are independent?' and you asked me 'where are your sources for that question?' it wouldn't sound any more nonsensical nor would you appear any more ridiculous than you do now demanding for my 'sources' of laughing at you.

#1183 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:02 PM

The gospels are copies of eyewitness testimony ... because they say so? Or because you or some other Christian says so?

The best evidence that the gospels are copies are the synoptic gospels themselves, but that's because they have common sources and are colorfully inventive versions of their common sources. There is no evidence suggesting that the gospels do not have a single source, meaning they could have all ultimately come from one document that has been lost or destroyed.

They did have a common source, what happened.  They saw it happen.

 


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#1184 shadowhawk

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:22 PM

 

 

 

 

Sources for what? Do you even know what that word means?

"any thing or place from which something comes, arises, or is obtained; origin"  Where are your sources of evidence to the contrary?  :)
 
Haha, contrary of what?
 
The evidence and sources presented.  You have nothing.

At the time you asked for my sources, all I had done was laugh at your assertion that the gospels are independent sources. I made no argument (no argument was necessary) and I didn't even ask that you demonstrate how they are independent. If I asked you 'where is the evidence they are independent?' and you asked me 'where are your sources for that question?' it wouldn't sound any more nonsensical nor would you appear any more ridiculous than you do now demanding for my 'sources' of laughing at you.

 

 

Again, we have many sources which I have already presented.  I will summerize it soon.  You present no sources or evidence to the contrary.  I am not asking four your empty sources for laughing, I know there is nothing there.  It is your usual modes operandi.  So if you have no basis for rejecting what I have presented I will go on.
 



#1185 Duchykins

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:52 PM


The gospels are copies of eyewitness testimony ... because they say so? Or because you or some other Christian says so?

The best evidence that the gospels are copies are the synoptic gospels themselves, but that's because they have common sources and are colorfully inventive versions of their common sources. There is no evidence suggesting that the gospels do not have a single source, meaning they could have all ultimately come from one document that has been lost or destroyed.

They did have a common source, what happened.  They saw it happen.
 
One fanciful document birthed many. One bald assertion deserves another.
You're also under obligation to demonstrate that the gospels were actually written by the men they are named after. There is no evidence these men existed.

Edited by Duchykins, 07 July 2014 - 10:52 PM.


#1186 sthira

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 11:03 PM

And even if these ancient writers were contemporaries, and even if these first-hand witnesses and friends or ancient news reporters documented these events with clarity, arent these just magic tricks? Shouldn't the Son of the Creator of the Universe have more useful news from above (or wherever the nonmaterial god resides nowadays)?
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#1187 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:17 AM

===========================================
THE FIRST SECTION SUMMARY, IS THERE A GOD?  Post 602
To post 602

WHICH GOD? SECTION TWO SUMMARY post 781
To post 781

CASE FOR CHRISTIANITY AND CHRIST?SECTION THREE    Post 1187
http://www.longecity...-35#entry665859



WHAT IS FAITH?
http://www.longecity...-24#entry655255
http://www.longecity...-26#entry656730
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662201
http://www.longecity...-31#entry663167
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663899
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663923
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663928
http://www.longecity...-38#entry670629

PASSOVER, JEWISH BASIS FOR CHRISTIANITY.
http://www.longecity...-25#entry656295

THE EASTER RESURRECTION
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657069
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657800
Good Friday, other historical sources as evidence.
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657142

WAS CHRIST THE ONLY GOD TO HAVE RISEN FROM THE DEAD?
http://www.longecity...-26#entry657554

WHICH GOD SUMMARY, SECTION ONE AND TWO.post 781

http://www.longecity...-27#entry657878

PART THREE, EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY post 781
Sweating blood
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658023
Jesus?s wounds on cross
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658217

WHY DID JESUS DIE QUICKLY?  Post 789
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658283

THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658516

TIMELINE OF THE WEEK OF THE PASSOVER FEAST.
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658553

WHERE IS HISTORY GOING, HISTORY AS PROOF
http://www.longecity...-27#entry658684

EVIDENCE SO FAR FOR THE RESURRECTION PRESENTED SUMMARY, post 808
http://www.longecity...-27#entry659099
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664992
------------------------------------------------------------
THE MINIMAL FACTS APPROACH TO THE EVIDENCE ppst 815
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659385
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659570
FACT #1?THE DEATH OF JESUS BY CRUCIFIXION post 818
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659738
FACT #2?THE EMPTY TOMB
http://www.longecity...-28#entry659943
FACT #3?THE POST-RESURRECTION APPEARANCES post 826
http://www.longecity...-28#entry660241
FACT #4?THE ORIGIN OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH post 842
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660568
SUMMARY
THE MINIMAL FACTS APPROACH TO THE EVIDENCE post 843

http://www.longecity...-29#entry660574
CONCLUSION AND FOOTNOTES TO MINIMAL FACTS post 846
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660591

SOME EXTRA BIBLICAL SOURCES FROM COLD CASE CHRISTIANITY post 837
http://www.longecity...-28#entry660468
Some More Evidence for the Resurrection by Josh McDowell
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660619
EARLY CHRISTIAN non biblical HISTORICAL EVIDENCE post 851
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660772
IS THE BIBLE ALSO EVIDENCE?
http://www.longecity...-29#entry660945
THE MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE post 859
http://www.longecity...-29#entry661148
http://www.longecity...-29#entry661163
http://www.longecity...-40#entry673135


THE SHROUD OF CHRIST
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662221
http://www.longecity...-31#entry663132
http://www.longecity...-31#entry663540
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663544
http://www.longecity...-31#entry662677
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664599
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664607

http://www.longecity...-34#entry664650
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664992

Christ Pantocrator from St. Catherine's Monastery in the Sinai, Egypt.
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662369
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662435
http://www.longecity...-31#entry662677
http://www.longecity...-33#entry664453
http://www.longecity...-33#entry664455
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664599

Face of Jesus off Shroud
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662440
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662595
http://www.longecity...-31#entry662906

Did Jesus claim to be God?  Did he claim to be a man?
http://www.longecity...-30#entry662442

Why Is the Shroud of Turin good evidence?
http://www.longecity...-31#entry663135
http://www.longecity...-31#entry663154
http://www.longecity...-31#entry663155
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664607
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664992

THE SUDARIUM of OVIEDO:
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663730
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663913

BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR SHROUD
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663938
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663942
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663952
http://www.longecity...-32#entry663960
http://www.longecity...-33#entry663972
http://www.longecity...-33#entry664033
http://www.longecity...-33#entry664179
http://www.longecity...-33#entry664260
http://www.longecity...-33#entry664378
http://www.longecity...-35#entry665002
http://www.longecity...-35#entry665173

What is the history of the Shroud of Turin?
http://www.longecity...-33#entry664470
http://www.longecity...-34#entry664607

SUMMARY AT 1042
http://www.longecity...-35#entry665859

THE TRINITY EVIDENCE
http://www.longecity...-35#entry666056
http://www.longecity...-36#entry666489
http://www.longecity...-36#entry666491

http://www.longecity...-36#entry666500
http://www.longecity...-36#entry666954
http://www.longecity...-36#entry667108

THE SYNOPTIC ISSUE
the tree and students
http://www.longecity...-36#entry666701

MIRACLES
http://www.longecity...-37#entry667506
EVIDENCE FOR JESUS AND MIRACLES FROM NON BIBLICAL HISTORY AND ARCHEOLOGY
http://www.longecity...-37#entry667547
SOME MIRACLES OF CHRIST
http://www.longecity...-37#entry667922
What is a Miracle?
http://www.longecity...-37#entry667935
http://www.longecity...-38#entry671473

CREDIBILITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT MIRACLE ACCOUNTS
http://www.longecity...-37#entry668704
Burden of proof
http://www.longecity...-37#entry669443
http://www.longecity...-37#entry669816

EVIDENCE, what is it?  Extraordinary?
http://www.longecity...-38#entry672065
http://www.longecity...-39#entry672622
http://www.longecity...-39#entry672861

Miracles And The Laws of Nature - quantum physics
http://www.longecity...-38#entry672190
http://www.longecity...-38#entry672379
http://www.longecity...-38#entry672535
http://www.longecity...-39#entry672585

SHATTERING THE MYTH THAT CHRIST WAS MADE UP BY OTHER RELIGIONS
http://www.longecity...-39#entry672856

POST RESURRECTION APPEARANCES IN JOHN
http://www.longecity...-39#entry672912
http://www.longecity...-39#entry673025
http://www.longecity...-39#entry673034

SECTION 3 SUMMARY 2.  1187
 


Edited by shadowhawk, 08 July 2014 - 02:18 AM.

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#1188 Duchykins

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:46 AM

Look at that pile of shyte that is meant to distract from my point about the gospels! I love it. It's a nice way of saying 'I don't have a good counterargument'.

#1189 johnross47

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:50 PM

Very disappointed to see that SH is still pursuing the same path. I've taken a break from this because it was clearly futile. It seems to still be futile. What proportion of your waking hours do you spend on this nonsense SH? 


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#1190 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:02 PM

Name calling?  what else can you expect.  Have a nice day.  :)

 

My evidence so far.  http://www.longecity...-40#entry673217

 


Edited by shadowhawk, 08 July 2014 - 08:06 PM.


#1191 shifter

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:59 AM

Jesus must have been a significant character right? I mean our calender year is based upon him and him alone (eg 2014 AD) anything before him we use BC. This is something Atheists and people of ANY religious persuation (including Jews who deny his significance) have in common all over the world. What a guy!

 

I'm wondering, if Atheists truely believe that the mere concept of Jesus and his significance is all BS, why do you use the calender based around him?

 

Some of the names of the months are based on Roman Gods too. Religion and Gods in any form are always going to be a part of your lives like it or not eh? If you guys are as hardcore atheists as you make out, perhaps you should try and start a new calender, completely shunning all aspects of any religious figures.

 

Actually, you'll need a new set of names for the days of the week too, and the planets! And the stars!

 

Is there any atheist movement for another calender year change? For example maybe you want to have the year start after Darwin died instead.... Just saying :)

 

I'll just state that I am a Agnostic/Christian sort of guy that does not discount Darwin evolution. I think you'll find most Christians are happy with the theory of evolution and the age of the earth at 5 billion+ years. I think it's only America that is unique to this attempted enforcement for this strange young earth theory.

 

 


Edited by shifter, 09 July 2014 - 02:02 AM.

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#1192 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 03:45 AM

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0802815758

EVIDENCE FOR CHRIST OUTSIDE THE BIBLE
by Michael Gleghorn
Evidence from Tacitus

Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like," there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.{1} This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life."{2} He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?"{3} The answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we will be looking at some of it in this article.

Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

    Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

But what are we to make of Tacitus' rather enigmatic statement that Christ's death briefly checked "a most mischievous superstition," which subsequently arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that Tacitus is here "bearing indirect . . . testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave."{6} While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.{7} How else might one explain that?
Evidence from Pliny the Younger

Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8} Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.{9}

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

    They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.{10}

This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."{11} If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the "love feast."{12} This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent kind. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."{13} The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.
Evidence from Josephus

Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.{16}

As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:

    About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.{17}

Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.{19}

For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!

But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus' later reference to Jesus as "the so-called Christ," a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical Jesus" are one and the same!
Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud

There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.{20} The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

    On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."{21}

Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus.{22} So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.{23} If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!{24}

The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?

Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."{25} But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching.{26} Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.
Evidence from Lucian

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

    The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}

Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!

Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!"

Notes

1. F. F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1974), 13.

2. Ibid.

3. Ibid.

4. Edwin Yamauchi, quoted in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1998), 82.

5. Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.

6. N.D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History (London: Tyndale, 1969), 19, cited in Gary R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin, Missouri: College Press Publishing Company, 1996), 189-190.

7. Edwin Yamauchi, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.

8. Pliny, Epistles x. 96, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 25; Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 198.

9. Ibid., 27.

10. Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

11. M. Harris, "References to Jesus in Early Classical Authors," in Gospel Perspectives V, 354-55, cited in E. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament: What is the Evidence?", in Jesus Under Fire, ed. by Michael J. Wilkins and J.P. Moreland (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1995), p. 227, note 66.

12. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

13. Bruce, Christian Origins, 28.

14. Josephus, Antiquities xx. 200, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 36.

15. Ibid.

16. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament", 212.

17. Josephus, Antiquities 18.63-64, cited in Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament", 212.

18. Ibid.

19. Although time would not permit me to mention it on the radio, another version of Josephus' "Testimonium Flavianum" survives in a tenth-century Arabic version (Bruce, Christian Origins, 41). In 1971, Professor Schlomo Pines published a study on this passage. The passage is interesting because it lacks most of the questionable elements that many scholars believe to be Christian interpolations. Indeed, "as Schlomo Pines and David Flusser...stated, it is quite plausible that none of the arguments against Josephus writing the original words even applies to the Arabic text, especially since the latter would have had less chance of being censored by the church" (Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 194). The passage reads as follows: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Quoted in James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism, (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988), 95, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 194).

20. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 202-03.

21. The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, 281, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.

22. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.

23. See John 8:58-59 and 10:31-33.

24. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 204. See also John 18:31-32.

25. Matt. 12:24. I gleaned this observation from Bruce, Christian Origins, 56.

26. Luke 23:2, 5.

27. Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4., cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 206.



#1193 Duchykins

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 04:18 AM

Jesus must have been a significant character right? I mean our calender year is based upon him and him alone (eg 2014 AD) anything before him we use BC. This is something Atheists and people of ANY religious persuation (including Jews who deny his significance) have in common all over the world. What a guy!
 
I'm wondering, if Atheists truely believe that the mere concept of Jesus and his significance is all BS, why do you use the calender based around him?
 
Some of the names of the months are based on Roman Gods too. Religion and Gods in any form are always going to be a part of your lives like it or not eh? If you guys are as hardcore atheists as you make out, perhaps you should try and start a new calender, completely shunning all aspects of any religious figures.
 
Actually, you'll need a new set of names for the days of the week too, and the planets! And the stars!
 
Is there any atheist movement for another calender year change? For example maybe you want to have the year start after Darwin died instead.... Just saying :)
 
I'll just state that I am a Agnostic/Christian sort of guy that does not discount Darwin evolution. I think you'll find most Christians are happy with the theory of evolution and the age of the earth at 5 billion+ years. I think it's only America that is unique to this attempted enforcement for this strange young earth theory.
 
 

I'm sorry but this post is fucking inane and egocentric. First of all, our calendars are the way they are because Greeks and Romans changed the world by conquering much of it. Secondly, the "Western" world became a superior power so our calendar continues to dominate. Third, BC is no longer used in academia and hasn't been for a long time, you are clearly not knowledgeable in this. It is CE (common era) and BCE (before common era). These changes were made because of the international and multicultural academic communities. Only Christians are enthused about Christian calendars, nobody else cares and only Christians are interested in using 'before christ' and 'after death'. Atheists had not much to do with the change because there simply aren't enough atheists, but plenty of Hindus, Muslims, various nondeminational groups took issue, which makes sense since they actually have gods and religions with which to prompt them into objecting to using Christian terminmology that may or may not be blasphemous to their own beliefs.

But go ahead, blame it on atheists (not a proper noun, by the way, so it's not correct to capitalize it like you were doing). It doesn't come off any differently than people who like to blame stuff on Jews. If you are at all interested in being correct, 'blame' it on the internet for enabling international and multicultural exchanges on levels never previously possible before.

Edited by Duchykins, 09 July 2014 - 04:41 AM.

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#1194 shifter

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:01 AM

 

Jesus must have been a significant character right? I mean our calender year is based upon him and him alone (eg 2014 AD) anything before him we use BC. This is something Atheists and people of ANY religious persuation (including Jews who deny his significance) have in common all over the world. What a guy!
 
I'm wondering, if Atheists truely believe that the mere concept of Jesus and his significance is all BS, why do you use the calender based around him?
 
Some of the names of the months are based on Roman Gods too. Religion and Gods in any form are always going to be a part of your lives like it or not eh? If you guys are as hardcore atheists as you make out, perhaps you should try and start a new calender, completely shunning all aspects of any religious figures.
 
Actually, you'll need a new set of names for the days of the week too, and the planets! And the stars!
 
Is there any atheist movement for another calender year change? For example maybe you want to have the year start after Darwin died instead.... Just saying :)
 
I'll just state that I am a Agnostic/Christian sort of guy that does not discount Darwin evolution. I think you'll find most Christians are happy with the theory of evolution and the age of the earth at 5 billion+ years. I think it's only America that is unique to this attempted enforcement for this strange young earth theory.
 
 

I'm sorry but this post is fucking inane and egocentric. First of all, our calendars are the way they are because Greeks and Romans changed the world by conquering much of it. Secondly, the "Western" world became a superior power so our calendar continues to dominate. Third, BC is no longer used in academia and hasn't been for a long time, you are clearly not knowledgeable in this. It is CE (common era) and BCE (before common era). These changes were made because of the international and multicultural academic communities. Only Christians are enthused about Christian calendars, nobody else cares and only Christians are interested in using 'before christ' and 'after death'. Atheists had not much to do with the change because there simply aren't enough atheists, but plenty of Hindus, Muslims, various nondeminational groups took issue, which makes sense since they actually have gods and religions with which to prompt them into objecting to using Christian terminmology that may or may not be blasphemous to their own beliefs.

But go ahead, blame it on atheists (not a proper noun, by the way, so it's not correct to capitalize it like you were doing). It doesn't come off any differently than people who like to blame stuff on Jews. If you are at all interested in being correct, 'blame' it on the internet for enabling international and multicultural exchanges on levels never previously possible before.

 

 

You forgot to mention that post was really just taking the piss at it all. :p

 

No reason though you cant use your own calender for modern times. eg "In the 1st year of Geoge W Bushs reign, we had 9/11 incident" Or "News of the Monica Lewinsky scandal broke in the 5th year of the Clinton reign" lol

 

Relax......


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#1195 Duchykins

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:13 AM

Or a Chinese calendar...

#1196 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:52 PM

THE COSMOS HAS LOTS OF ROOM FOR GOD  OR GOD HAS LOTS OF ROOM FOR THE COSMOS.  ARE MIRACLES TO HARD FOR GOD?   ONE TIME EVENTS DONE MANY TIMES IN SPACE/TIME..

 

 

heic1411a.jpg


Edited by shadowhawk, 09 July 2014 - 06:03 PM.

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#1197 DukeNukem

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:59 PM

I've been reading several books on Jesus recently.  He was clearly a charming, charismatic leader, who learned most of what he taught from John the Baptist, considered the leading prophet when Jesus entered the picture.  But Jesus went on to use many magician tricks to bolster his image among his fanbase and followers.  I just pre-ordered this book which delves into this area of Jesus' fame, his so-called miracles:

 

Jesus the Magician: A renowned historian reveals how Jesus was viewed by people of his time

http://www.amazon.co...uct/157174715X/


Edited by DukeNukem, 09 July 2014 - 09:00 PM.

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#1198 shadowhawk

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:35 AM

BART EHRMAN and christians debate












 

 

 



#1199 shadowhawk

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:23 PM

EHRMAN / WHITE DEBATE ON BIBLE AND WHAT IS THE BIBLE?












 



#1200 shadowhawk

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:25 PM

Do extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?

 

 

 

 

 







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