• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
* * - - - 10 votes

IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY???

christianity religion spirituality

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1818 replies to this topic

#1531 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:40 PM

serp777: You have a multiverse which is subject to all the limitations of Space/time. The multiverse is beyond the world and of a different nature than the world. There never was a time when there was nothing. The multiverse always is and always was. BOOM, problem solved. This is how an infinite multiverse would work anyways.


All you have done is take the attributes of God and clam they are the attributes of the multi verse.  The multi verse is in space/time not because I say it is but because this is the source of its attributes.  There is no infinite universe.  You have taken a finite physical object such as the hypothetical multi verse and clammed it has the attributes of God.  Some think the attributes of God can be found in a computer.  You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows.





 

#1532 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:27 AM

Shadowhawk:  >>> Answer:  God is uncreated.
DukeNukem:>>> LOL
The thing is, you think this is a legit answer.  But it's pure silliness.
Where does it say this in the Bible?
But the bottom-line, this "uncreated" claim is just an easy way for you do dodge arguments.  It's your mental safe harbor, a retreat from all the logic, reason and facts you're constantly bombarded with.


God is the creator not the created.  Gen: 1.1
See also many other references.  http://bible.knowing...od,-The-Creator
http://www.debmark.c...n the Bible.htm
http://en.wikipedia....i/Creator_deity

Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
God has no beginning.
Therefore God has no cause.

http://christianansw...g/aig-c039.html
http://en.wikipedia....ies_distinction
http://www.libraryof...od's_Nature.pdf
http://www.reasonabl...ncreated-beings

Clearly this is not a way to dodge arguments and your logic, reasons and facts (which you have not given) are not the reason we Christians believe in an uncreated God.


 

#1533 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 02:22 AM

The BGV therm

 










 



#1534 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:03 AM

 

addx:  You're an idiot, I'm done.

 

Wow what a typical but powerful point.  Why for months do you call me names and argue like this?  Must make some sense to you.

 

 

Sometimes it's funny, sometimes I let some steam out. You seem to enjoy it, so no harm done.



#1535 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:09 AM

 

Shadowhawk:  >>> Answer:  God is uncreated.
DukeNukem:>>> LOL
The thing is, you think this is a legit answer.  But it's pure silliness.
Where does it say this in the Bible?
But the bottom-line, this "uncreated" claim is just an easy way for you do dodge arguments.  It's your mental safe harbor, a retreat from all the logic, reason and facts you're constantly bombarded with.


God is the creator not the created.  Gen: 1.1
See also many other references.  http://bible.knowing...od,-The-Creator
http://www.debmark.c...n the Bible.htm
http://en.wikipedia....i/Creator_deity

Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
God has no beginning.
Therefore God has no cause.

http://christianansw...g/aig-c039.html
http://en.wikipedia....ies_distinction
http://www.libraryof...od's_Nature.pdf
http://www.reasonabl...ncreated-beings

Clearly this is not a way to dodge arguments and your logic, reasons and facts (which you have not given) are not the reason we Christians believe in an uncreated God.


 

 

 

 

Rofl duke, you played into his hand. It says so in the bible! So it must be so!

 

If it says so in the bible, then it is also logical, reasonable and a fact! As is healing leprosy by killing/sacrificing birds and bathing in their blood. Did you know the bible also claims that? Is that a fact, logical or reasonable? If the bible is indeed littered with "bad facts" how do you pick the "right facts"? Let me tell you, "right facts" are all facts that haven't been obviously and beyond any doubt proven as false. And historically, the process of proving any of those facts wrong required sacrifice as christianity would protect its lies by killing scientists-prophets-of-truth-not-doctrine. 

 

So. Ridiculous.



#1536 DukeNukem

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 145
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 27 August 2014 - 04:30 PM

The Bible is not reliable, because it gets so many things wrong.  Even William Craig admits this.

So any reference to the Bible as a single source is easily dismissed.  Nothing in that book can be believed or trusted.

Does anyone actually think that a god would send 2 bears to maul and killed 42 kids?  Does anyone really believe a man lived in a whale?  Does anyone really believe that we have multiple languages on Earth because men almost built a tower so high as to reach a god?  I could go on and on with these cute (and sometimes, tragic) fantasy tales.  The Bible has about as much credibility as a Harry Potter book.


Edited by DukeNukem, 27 August 2014 - 04:31 PM.


#1537 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:47 PM

 

 

Shadowhawk:  >>> Answer:  God is uncreated.
DukeNukem:>>> LOL
The thing is, you think this is a legit answer.  But it's pure silliness.
Where does it say this in the Bible?
But the bottom-line, this "uncreated" claim is just an easy way for you do dodge arguments.  It's your mental safe harbor, a retreat from all the logic, reason and facts you're constantly bombarded with.


God is the creator not the created.  Gen: 1.1
See also many other references.  http://bible.knowing...od,-The-Creator
http://www.debmark.c...n the Bible.htm
http://en.wikipedia....i/Creator_deity

Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
God has no beginning.
Therefore God has no cause.

http://christianansw...g/aig-c039.html
http://en.wikipedia....ies_distinction
http://www.libraryof...od's_Nature.pdf
http://www.reasonabl...ncreated-beings

Clearly this is not a way to dodge arguments and your logic, reasons and facts (which you have not given) are not the reason we Christians believe in an uncreated God.


 

 

 

 

Rofl duke, you played into his hand. It says so in the bible! So it must be so!

 

If it says so in the bible, then it is also logical, reasonable and a fact! As is healing leprosy by killing/sacrificing birds and bathing in their blood. Did you know the bible also claims that? Is that a fact, logical or reasonable? If the bible is indeed littered with "bad facts" how do you pick the "right facts"? Let me tell you, "right facts" are all facts that haven't been obviously and beyond any doubt proven as false. And historically, the process of proving any of those facts wrong required sacrifice as christianity would protect its lies by killing scientists-prophets-of-truth-not-doctrine. 

 

So. Ridiculous.

 

Duke asked me a question about the Bible.  God did create all that is created,



#1538 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:51 PM

 

serp777: You have a multiverse which is subject to all the limitations of Space/time. The multiverse is beyond the world and of a different nature than the world. There never was a time when there was nothing. The multiverse always is and always was. BOOM, problem solved. This is how an infinite multiverse would work anyways.


All you have done is take the attributes of God and clam they are the attributes of the multi verse.  The multi verse is in space/time not because I say it is but because this is the source of its attributes.  There is no infinite universe.  You have taken a finite physical object such as the hypothetical multi verse and clammed it has the attributes of God.  Some think the attributes of God can be found in a computer.  You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows.





 

 

All you have done is take the attributes of the multiverse and claim they are attriutes of GOd.

 

"There is no infinite universe.  "

 

That's not what the multiverse says.

 

"You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows."

 

A straw man that is simply meaningless



#1539 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:11 PM

DukeNukem:The Bible is not reliable, because it gets so many things wrong.  Even William Craig admits this.
So any reference to the Bible as a single source is easily dismissed.  Nothing in that book can be believed or trusted.
Does anyone actually think that a god would send 2 bears to maul and killed 42 kids?  Does anyone really believe a man lived in a whale?  Does anyone really believe that we have multiple languages on Earth because men almost built a tower so high as to reach a god?  I could go on and on with these cute (and sometimes, tragic) fantasy tales.  The Bible has about as much credibility as a Harry Potter book.


Duke, you are the one who made the statement regarding the Bible.  I simply showed you how you are in error as to what the bible teaches.  God is the creator not the created.  Now do I have to show you, you are also wrong about William Craig?  I will not fall for your garbage truck fallacy of dumping an entire litany if new issues out there and expecting me to go off what we have been discussing.  It is a red herring.  You introduced three new subjects peppered with a lot of name calling.

We were talking about infinite regress and the multi verse, were we not?

#1540 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:16 PM

 

 

serp777: You have a multiverse which is subject to all the limitations of Space/time. The multiverse is beyond the world and of a different nature than the world. There never was a time when there was nothing. The multiverse always is and always was. BOOM, problem solved. This is how an infinite multiverse would work anyways.


All you have done is take the attributes of God and clam they are the attributes of the multi verse.  The multi verse is in space/time not because I say it is but because this is the source of its attributes.  There is no infinite universe.  You have taken a finite physical object such as the hypothetical multi verse and clammed it has the attributes of God.  Some think the attributes of God can be found in a computer.  You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows.





 

 

All you have done is take the attributes of the multiverse and claim they are attriutes of GOd.

 

"There is no infinite universe.  "

 

That's not what the multiverse says.

 

"You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows."

 

A straw man that is simply meaningless

 

Here is my full text which you edited.

"All you have done is take the attributes of God and clam they are the attributes of the multi verse.  The multi verse is in space/time not because I say it is but because this is the source of its attributes.  There is no infinite universe.  You have taken a finite physical object such as the hypothetical multi verse and clammed it has the attributes of God.  Some think the attributes of God can be found in a computer.  You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows."

---------------------

Not a straw man and not meaningless.  The universe is not infinite and my points stand.  What is meaningless is your response.


Edited by shadowhawk, 27 August 2014 - 07:22 PM.


#1541 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:06 PM

WHY THE UNIVERSE CAN'T BE INFINITE.

 

 

 

 

 

 


  • Dangerous, Irresponsible x 1

#1542 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:58 AM

 

 

 

serp777: You have a multiverse which is subject to all the limitations of Space/time. The multiverse is beyond the world and of a different nature than the world. There never was a time when there was nothing. The multiverse always is and always was. BOOM, problem solved. This is how an infinite multiverse would work anyways.


All you have done is take the attributes of God and clam they are the attributes of the multi verse.  The multi verse is in space/time not because I say it is but because this is the source of its attributes.  There is no infinite universe.  You have taken a finite physical object such as the hypothetical multi verse and clammed it has the attributes of God.  Some think the attributes of God can be found in a computer.  You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows.





 

 

All you have done is take the attributes of the multiverse and claim they are attriutes of GOd.

 

"There is no infinite universe.  "

 

That's not what the multiverse says.

 

"You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows."

 

A straw man that is simply meaningless

 

Here is my full text which you edited.

"All you have done is take the attributes of God and clam they are the attributes of the multi verse.  The multi verse is in space/time not because I say it is but because this is the source of its attributes.  There is no infinite universe.  You have taken a finite physical object such as the hypothetical multi verse and clammed it has the attributes of God.  Some think the attributes of God can be found in a computer.  You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows."

---------------------

Not a straw man and not meaningless.  The universe is not infinite and my points stand.  What is meaningless is your response.

 

Are you having issues reading what I wrote? The multiverse is not the universe, and your point is moot. What is meaningless is your counterargument. 



#1543 shifter

  • Guest
  • 716 posts
  • 5

Posted 28 August 2014 - 03:03 AM

There are some things the bible somehow managed to get right

 

The dimensions of Noahs ark for one....

 

The Earth being a circle or round.

 

Why they wait until the 8th day for circumcision?? Long before Vitamin K and Prothrombin were discovered....

 

http://www.apologeti...13&article=1118

 

More on that site http://www.apologeti...ry=13&topic=102. I'm sure you'll claim its religious bias, but if you are going to count the number of things they got wrong, also look up the things they got right. Look at everything objectively (if your mind is geared toward science this should be easy). Some of them are bizzare.

 

Some of these other things like Jonah and the whale... Maybe he got delirious, passed out, they wrapped him up in a cloth to keep him hurting himself, dreamed about drowning and being swallowed by a whale and woke up after his companions put him ashore and left? When he awoke and came to his senses, perhaps to his mind it was the only way he could make sense of it. People on the verge of death or in extreme fear might conjour up things as a survival mechanism. Or forget events. We aren't machines and don't recall things in perfect clarity.

 

Sure, the tower of babel, they blamed God. My guess is, it was nothing more than a sickness that spread. They got confused, delirious and gave up on their tower as they could no longer work together. As they got sick at the point of building a tall tower they thought maybe they were punished and God is pretty easy to blame when you cant find an answer. But perhaps the fact they got sick and talked nonsense could be real.

 

I am guessing the flood event was limited to a small area in the middle east rather than the entire world. But if you look at the bible and all its locations, it is confined to a small area in the middle east. The 'world' as the people of the time knew it, was flooded.

 

Take a look at this

http://abcnews.go.co...story?id=119949

 

People to argue their point use visions (such as in revelations) of how ridiculously unscientific the bible is. It's A VISION. The content of your dreams aren't 'scientific' so I guess dreaming is BS. It's this kind of preposterous arguing style that nobody learns anything from

 

 

 

If you are scientific then search for the truth objectively without any bias. Look at both sides of an argument with objectivity. This thread is filled with people entrenched with their own bias who only look at and present only one side.

 

if NOTHING in the bible can be believed or trusted then please explain things like why circumcision on the 8th day is best. People even worked out that not only is Noahs ark dimentionally correct, but that it could hold the weight of 2 of each animal and still float (I'm guessing it just needed to float, it didn't need to go anywhere specific).

 

They long knew about 'germs' or the value of being clean and what can make you 'unclean'. And how to clean before modern science. It was the mid 1800s before we actually 'invented' the concept of washing our hands to clean them.

 

The bible also alluded long before 'modern science' the earth was round (not flat) But hey, you said NOTHING in the bible can be believed or trusted....

 

 

Remember the bible is not a work of GOD. It is a work of many people who had no scientific knowledge so their conclusions for things and their limited scope of the world has to be taken into account.

 

 

 

 

 

The Bible is not reliable, because it gets so many things wrong.  Even William Craig admits this.

So any reference to the Bible as a single source is easily dismissed.  Nothing in that book can be believed or trusted.

Does anyone actually think that a god would send 2 bears to maul and killed 42 kids?  Does anyone really believe a man lived in a whale?  Does anyone really believe that we have multiple languages on Earth because men almost built a tower so high as to reach a god?  I could go on and on with these cute (and sometimes, tragic) fantasy tales.  The Bible has about as much credibility as a Harry Potter book.

 


Edited by shifter, 28 August 2014 - 03:04 AM.

  • like x 1

#1544 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 28 August 2014 - 07:18 AM

God did create all that is created,


No he didn't. How's that for a discussion?
  • dislike x 1

#1545 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 28 August 2014 - 07:56 PM

SH said "All you have done is take the attributes of God and clam they are the attributes of the multi verse.  The multi verse is in space/time not because I say it is but because this is the source of its attributes.  There is no infinite universe.  You have taken a finite physical object such as the hypothetical multi verse and clammed it has the attributes of God.  Some think the attributes of God can be found in a computer.  You have exchanged a computer for the multi verse as the video shows."

Serp777 said in response: Are you having issues reading what I wrote? The multiverse is not the universe, and your point is moot. What is meaningless is your counterargument.


I was talking about the cosmos, either the universe which there is a great deal of physical evidence for or the Multiverse which there is no physical evidence for.  It is not scientific.  An infinite regress is impossible and you are the one who seems to be having a problem reading because this has nothing to do with what I said.  You tried to take the attributes of God and apply them to the multiverse.  I could describe an ice cream cone and call it the multiverse. :)   I think it is time to go on with the next difficulty

#1546 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 28 August 2014 - 07:58 PM

 

God did create all that is created,


No he didn't. How's that for a discussion?

 

No name calling.  It has more content than your usual massive.



#1547 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 29 August 2014 - 06:49 AM

I was talking about the cosmos, either the universe which there is a great deal of physical evidence for or the Multiverse which there is no physical evidence for.  It is not scientific.


God is also not scientific

You tried to take the attributes of God and apply them to the multiverse.


Exactly so.

He can do that, since God has no evidence and is not scientific it's the same thing as the multiverse. Why should he not propose the same attributes. You have as much proof for God(including his attributes) as he does for the multiverse.

#1548 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 29 August 2014 - 06:46 PM

Science is also not scientific.  It can’t be proved scientifically.  Science is not scientism and it is not proven to be the only way to truth scientifically.  There are many limitation to science, one of them is it is incapable of disproving God.  Science can only deal with the measurable.  Some things cannot be measured.

If you want to call an ice cream cone the multiverse and ascribe all the attributes of the multiverse to it, go ahead.  I didn’t call you stupid, so don’t say I did..  However that is nonsense because the word symbol “ice cream” describes attributes far different than the word multiverse.  Confuse the two if you want but it is gobbligoop.



#1549 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 30 August 2014 - 07:24 PM

Science is also not scientific.  It can’t be proved scientifically.  Science is not scientism and it is not proven to be the only way to truth scientifically.  There are many limitation to science, one of them is it is incapable of disproving God.  Science can only deal with the measurable.  Some things cannot be measured.

If you want to call an ice cream cone the multiverse and ascribe all the attributes of the multiverse to it, go ahead.  I didn’t call you stupid, so don’t say I did..  However that is nonsense because the word symbol “ice cream” describes attributes far different than the word multiverse.  Confuse the two if you want but it is gobbligoop.

"If you want to call an ice cream cone the multiverse and ascribe all the attributes of the multiverse to it, go ahead. "

 

Bull feces. Any argument you apply to the multiverse can also be applied to God. Eternal, infinite, not dependent on causality, etc. The multiverse theory does not subscribe to your preconception. 

 

Ok clearly you have no idea what science is. Science is also incapable of disproving leprechauns, the celestial teapot, Santa Clause with reindeer, etc.

 

Requiring someone or something to disprove something unprovable is an argumentative fallacy called ad ignorantium. 


  • Agree x 1

#1550 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:53 PM

These days even the historicity of Jesus is in dispute. What new evidence is there that such a person really existed?

 

http://www.rawstory....-dont-think-so/



#1551 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:06 AM

serp777:  Bull feces. Any argument you apply to the multiverse can also be applied to God. Eternal, infinite, not dependent on causality, etc. The multiverse theory does not subscribe to your preconception.

Ok clearly you have no idea what science is. Science is also incapable of disproving leprechauns, the celestial teapot, Santa Clause with reindeer, etc.

Requiring someone or something to disprove something unprovable is an argumentative fallacy called ad ignorantium.


The multiverse is an ice cream cone if we can exchange attributes to be anything we wish then to be.  The multiverse does not subscribe to meaning anything you want it to when ever you get an urge..  That is why we have dictionaries.

Science is incapable if disproving or proving all kinds of things.  It is limited don’t you know.  I never asked someone to disprove anything scientifically.  Nonsense.  Science cannot prove science among many other things..

http://home.messiah....iverse talk.htm


Edited by shadowhawk, 01 September 2014 - 01:17 AM.


#1552 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 01 September 2014 - 01:08 AM

These days even the historicity of Jesus is in dispute. What new evidence is there that such a person really existed?

 

http://www.rawstory....-dont-think-so/

We covered this in the evidence for Christianity, section three.  What do you think?



#1553 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 01 September 2014 - 07:53 AM

 

These days even the historicity of Jesus is in dispute. What new evidence is there that such a person really existed?

 

http://www.rawstory....-dont-think-so/

We covered this in the evidence for Christianity, section three.  What do you think?

 

No we did not. There are legitimate concerns about the historicity and only ongoing and future research can shed more light on the issue. 



#1554 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:42 PM

In other words though we did cover these issues you wont have a clue until sometime in the future!  :)

------------------------------------------------

Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” January 12, 2012 Posted by vjtorley under Intelligent Design

531px-AlexanderVilenkin.JPG

Did the cosmos have a beginning? The Big Bang theory seems to suggest it did, but in recent decades, cosmologists have concocted elaborate theories – for example, an eternally inflating universe or a cyclic universe – which claim to avoid the need for a beginning of the cosmos. Now it appears that the universe really had a beginning after all, even if it wasn’t necessarily the Big Bang.

At a meeting of scientists – titled “State of the Universe” – convened last week at Cambridge University to honor Stephen Hawking’s 70th birthday, cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston presented evidence that the universe is not eternal after all, leaving scientists at a loss to explain how the cosmos got started without a supernatural creator. The meeting was reported in New Scientist magazine (Why physicists can’t avoid a creation event, 11 January 2012). I’ve quoted a few brief highlights below.

In his presentation, Professor Vilenkin discussed three theories which claim to avoid the need for a beginning of the cosmos.

One popular theory is eternal inflation. Most readers will be familiar with the theory of inflation, which says that the universe increased in volume by a factor of at least 10^78 in its very early stages (from 10^−36 seconds after the Big Bang to sometime between 10^−33 and 10^−32 seconds), before settling into the slower rate of expansion that we see today. The theory of eternal inflation goes further, and holds that the universe is constantly giving birth to smaller “bubble” universes within an ever-expanding multiverse. Each bubble universe undergoes its own initial period of inflation. In some versions of the theory, the bubbles go both backwards and forwards in time, allowing the possibility of an infinite past. Trouble is, the value of one particular cosmic parameter rules out that possibility:

But in 2003, a team including Vilenkin and Guth considered what eternal inflation would mean for the Hubble constant, which describes mathematically the expansion of the universe. They found that the equations didn’t work (Physical Review Letters, DOI: 10.1103/physrevlett.90.151301). “You can’t construct a space-time with this property,” says Vilenkin. It turns out that the constant has a lower limit that prevents inflation in both time directions. “It can’t possibly be eternal in the past,” says Vilenkin. “There must be some kind of boundary.”

A second option explored by Vilenkin was that of a cyclic universe, where the universe goes through an infinite series of big bangs and crunches, with no specific beginning. It was even claimed that a cyclic universe could explain the low observed value of the cosmological constant. But as Vilenkin found, there’s a problem if you look at the disorder in the universe:

Disorder increases with time. So following each cycle, the universe must get more and more disordered. But if there has already been an infinite number of cycles, the universe we inhabit now should be in a state of maximum disorder. Such a universe would be uniformly lukewarm and featureless, and definitely lacking such complicated beings as stars, planets and physicists – nothing like the one we see around us.

One way around that is to propose that the universe just gets bigger with every cycle. Then the amount of disorder per volume doesn’t increase, so needn’t reach the maximum. But Vilenkin found that this scenario falls prey to the same mathematical argument as eternal inflation: if your universe keeps getting bigger, it must have started somewhere.

However, Vilenkin’s options were not exhausted yet. There was another possibility: that the universe had sprung from an eternal cosmic egg:

Vilenkin’s final strike is an attack on a third, lesser-known proposal that the cosmos existed eternally in a static state called the cosmic egg. This finally “cracked” to create the big bang, leading to the expanding universe we see today. Late last year Vilenkin and graduate student Audrey Mithani showed that the egg could not have existed forever after all, as quantum instabilities would force it to collapse after a finite amount of time (arxiv.org/abs/1110.4096). If it cracked instead, leading to the big bang, then this must have happened before it collapsed – and therefore also after a finite amount of time.

“This is also not a good candidate for a beginningless universe,” Vilenkin concludes.

So at the end of the day, what is Vilenkin’s verdict?

“All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.”

A supernatural Creator?


Edited by shadowhawk, 02 September 2014 - 11:45 PM.


#1555 DukeNukem

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 145
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:28 AM

Even if our "local" universe had a beginning, that doesn't mean it isn't part of something much bigger that has always existed.  Remember, less than 100 years ago we thought that our local galaxy WAS all there was, and before that we thought our solar system was all there was.  It's silly to assume our universe is all there is.

~~~~~

 

Question:  Romans declared Julius Caesar to be a god in 43 BCE.  How can we prove he wasn't a god?



#1556 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:49 PM

Yes aand it is silley by the same logic to assume there is no God.



#1557 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:57 PM

IS THERE A MULTIVERSE?  The reason atheists need a multiverse, (many worlds) let me correct that, an infinite multiverse is so they can explain this one.  If there was an infinite number of multiverses than the odds are one just like ours would appear.  No need to have a God if you have an infinite number of chances, anything is possible.  Anything exists. :) Cute aye?  This finely tuned universe with its appearance of design is possible by pure chance alone.   However using this logic that if anything is possible what exists does, it proves to much.  That would mean in some possible universe God also exists.  Remember premise 2?

1.    It is possible that a maximally great being exists.
2.    If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.
3.    If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
4.    If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.
5.    If a maximally great being exists in the actual world, then a maximally great being exists.
6.    Therefore, a maximally great being exists.


Since God is maximally Great, God exists in this world!!!  If all things are possible than so is God.  There is a God.

However does an infinite multiverse exist?  I don’t think so and there is still a God if the multiverse fails.  Here is an excellent video against the many world view.





 



#1558 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 04 September 2014 - 07:27 PM

DukeNukem: Question:  Romans declared Julius Caesar to be a god in 43 BCE.  How can we prove he wasn't a god?

 

Do you believe there was a Julius Caesar?  How would you prove it?  What would you accept as proof?  Was he a God?  after he got stabbed to death what happened to him?  Did he act like a God?  Were there any special signs that he was different than other humans just  like him?  Did anyone believe he was not a man and did they continue to believe that?  Did he do any miracles?  Were his teachings profound?  I could go on but Caesar was no Christ.



#1559 shadowhawk

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 05 September 2014 - 08:10 PM

Is there an anti Christian Bias?  Look back over this thread and see if you can answer this question.

 

 

 

 

 


  • dislike x 1

#1560 shifter

  • Guest
  • 716 posts
  • 5

Posted 06 September 2014 - 12:49 AM

So why couldn't God create a multiverse?? Maybe there is an infinite number of 'universes' all inside one ultimate universe.

 

Think of a glass of soda and each bubble being a different universe. However it is all inside a giant container.

 

Maybe the 'multiverse' is all part of one big universe system.

 

I think the problem is people imagining things based on mankinds ncredibly limited perception of our own universe. No one here has any intellectual authority to say 'this is what is right and everything else is wrong'. Nobody.

 

 

Besides, scientists (good ones) don't say things are impossible. Improbable maybe but not impossible. Even the idea of some creator or supernatural power is not impossible to them.

 

And it's only 'super natural' until we understand it.

 

Show a caveman a lighter or a match, and he we think you have supernatural powers. But is it?

 

 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: christianity, religion, spirituality

43 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 42 guests, 0 anonymous users


    Bing (1)