65 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

It looks like gadoleic acid is available in pure form. It would be interesting to try adding C60 to that.

I have to wonder why/how the grains disappeared. I wonder if there is something that is corrosive to the C60 in it? Will it still be C60? How much C60 can be absorbed if it's not being destroyed? Enough to make a C60 gelcap?

[hav]

It looks like gadoleic acid is available in pure form. It would be interesting to try adding C60 to that.

I have to wonder why/how the grains disappeared. I wonder if there is something that is corrosive to the C60 in it? Will it still be C60? How much C60 can be absorbed if it's not being destroyed? Enough to make a C60 gelcap?

I think its just dissolving and/or forming an adduct with the fatty acid. Looks like what happens when I mix C60 with olive oil, just easier to see since the solution is more translucent, and seems to happen more quickly. I'm thinking the c60 is more soluble in jojoba than olive oil and added an additional 20 mg to test that out. Total current mix is 100 mg of c60 to 100 ml of jojoba. I'll probably stick with jojoba for this test substance because its already in use in topical lotions and shampoos and appears safe. It seems to absorb into the skin better than dmso and without irritation and may be a better transport for fat soluble substances if the fatty layer below the skin is the target.

I found a source of ethyl oleate and ordered 100 ml. Niner's suggestion on that makes allot of sense. Its already in use as a drug and supplement solubilizer. I'm not sure if its approved for use as a food additive yet but it seems to be considered generally safe for oral ingestion. Although there is a study showing the pure substance can damage mitochondria if injected directly into cells. Be interesting to see for starters if c60 dissolves in it.

Howard

[YOLF]

So then jojoba wouldn't be able to replace olive oil for orally ingested C60?

[hav]

I don't think so. It's not digestible by itself. I'm only thinking of it in terms of use as a skin treatment myself.

Btw, my mix is now up to 140 mg c60 to 100 mg of oil. And getting darker red.

Howard

[stephen_b]

Has anyone seen this paper: Reaction of Molecular Oxygen with C60: Spectroscopic Studies? From the discussion section:

Exposure to air or oxygen must always be avoided. Even sublimed C60 is irreversibly modified after contact with oxygen or air under any conditons.

I'm thinking of C60 sitting around for months before it's mixed with olive oil.

Edited by stephen_b, 12 November 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[hav]

Here's a more recent reference that mentions the same thing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15268046

Sounds like it may be futile to mix c60 and olive oil in an oxygen free environment unless you make sure the c60 isn't bringing the oxygen in all by itself.

Howard

[niner]

Here's a more recent reference that mentions the same thing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15268046

Sounds like it may be futile to mix c60 and olive oil in an oxygen free environment unless you make sure the c60 isn't bringing the oxygen in all by itself.

These papers are talking about oxygen that's adsorbed on the c60 surface, but has not reacted with it. I recently saw a paper that talked about pristine c60 reacting with molecular oxygen. I can't find it at the moment, but it made me think that the highly convenient method of grinding the c60 crystal to speed dissolution / reaction with oil is actually a bad idea, unless it's done under an inert atmosphere. The reason for this is that the oxygen only reacts with the outermost layers of the crystal, so breaking up the crystal dramatically increases the surface area. I don't think that the amount of oxygen you bring into the reaction from what's adsorbed on the outside of the crystal is going to be a big problem if you're starting from large crystals like those from SES. I would still suggest taking pains to avoid free access to oxygen, like stirring it in a closed flask with little air space, and storing it in a manner that excludes air.

[YOLF]

Here's a more recent reference that mentions the same thing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15268046

Sounds like it may be futile to mix c60 and olive oil in an oxygen free environment unless you make sure the c60 isn't bringing the oxygen in all by itself.

These papers are talking about oxygen that's adsorbed on the c60 surface, but has not reacted with it. I recently saw a paper that talked about pristine c60 reacting with molecular oxygen. I can't find it at the moment, but it made me think that the highly convenient method of grinding the c60 crystal to speed dissolution / reaction with oil is actually a bad idea, unless it's done under an inert atmosphere. The reason for this is that the oxygen only reacts with the outermost layers of the crystal, so breaking up the crystal dramatically increases the surface area. I don't think that the amount of oxygen you bring into the reaction from what's adsorbed on the outside of the crystal is going to be a big problem if you're starting from large crystals like those from SES. I would still suggest taking pains to avoid free access to oxygen, like stirring it in a closed flask with little air space, and storing it in a manner that excludes air.

How big is the magnetic stirrer wand? I bought some mason jars and a vacuum sealer for around $30. I think my mason jars are about 5 inches on the bottom. I've also seen hand pumps that would do the job for cheaper.

Another option for breaking up the C60 crystals would be to use metal balls and a rock smoother if you can create a vaccuum in it or adapt it to a solid mason jar.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 13 November 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Aronte]

What do you think of c60oo vacuum sealed ?

[niner]

What do you think of c60oo vacuum sealed ?

In principle I'd be in favor, but it's kind of hard to hold a vacuum. It would be easier to store it in small bottles that are filled all the way to the top. That way, you would only have one small bottle open at a time, and you would quickly use it up. You could also freeze them until you were ready to use them.

[cuprous]

Once the c60 is fully dissolved into the OO aren't O2 concerns moot?

As an aside, has anyone noticed the "pepperiness" of their c60 mix declining? I can't tell if it's just getting used to it or if it means something is changing with the chemistry.

[niner]

Once the c60 is fully dissolved into the OO aren't O2 concerns moot?

As an aside, has anyone noticed the "pepperiness" of their c60 mix declining? I can't tell if it's just getting used to it or if it means something is changing with the chemistry.

No, not at all. Oxygen can dissolve in olive oil at a concentration of about 5 millimolar. If it gets used up by reacting with a dissolved molecule (or the oil itself), and there is an air space above the oil, then more oxygen will come in to take its place. If the oil is getting noticeably less peppery, that's kind of a bad sign, I'd think. Maybe the polyphenols or other compounds that are responsible for the peppery flavor are getting oxidized?

[hav]

My own inclination is to not mix such large batches in the future. Go for no longer than a 6 month supply. Although I'm not really sure this is necessary, because in the Baati study they did not bake off the oxygen from their raw c60 or mix it with olive oil in an oxygen free environment. Still, I can't see how oxygen would help with the effects they observed and fresher sounds more appetizing.

Howard

[stephen_b]

On the plus side, we can't rule out that the Baati results might have been even more impressive had fresher C60-OO been used.

[YOLF]

We definitely need to duplicate this study somehow. It's time for a kickstarter or similar campaign we need at least 3 controls and 10 for the C60 group with C60 made monthly and a decent enough budget to get equipment that will make things easy to handle.

FYI, C60 is also the ICD10 nomenclature for penile cancer O_O I hope they aren't trying to kill off us immortalists... all three of AV's rats died of cancer in contrast to the 30% that would usually die of cancer...

[hav]

Here's a quick update on my previous post on dissolving c60 in jojoba oil. I kept adding c60 in 20 mg increments to 100 ml and when I got to 140 mg it seemed to stop dissolving completely. I let it magnetically stir another 4 or 4 days after that and it looked mostly dissolved. Color was a fairly dark violet/red, more red I'd say than c60 in the evoo I usually use. Given that my scale is probably only accurate only to a few milligrams, I probably had a bit over 140 mg in my mix. I'd guess solubility of c60 in jojoba is somewhere between 130 mg and 140 mg per 100 ml. When I filtered it, there seemed to be a slight bit more undissolved c60 than I usually see after 80 mg to 100 ml evoo mixes. Attached are a few pictures to illustrate including a close up of the filter.

Not sure what to do with this stuff. Maybe I'll try it as lotion on some scars I'd had most of my life.

Howard

Attached Files

•  jojoba_6975.jpg   89.38KB   15 downloads
•  jojoba_6976.jpg   84.65KB   13 downloads

[Freebytes]

It's unlikely, niner. Freebytes is seeing results the same day, while the experiment with the Japanese women took far longer to show a difference when compared with a control-- LF-SQ cream that was applied on a face twice daily was not effective at 4th week, but significantly more effective than the placebo at 8th week.

Turnbuckle, yes, I attribute it to the standard appearance of the oil, and I think she may be referring to my usage of the day. However, I go long periods of time using it (a couple months) then long periods of time not using it. She seems to be able to tell when I use it even if I try to hide being oily; however, it is something that is difficult to hide. I am not sure if she is commenting because of the immediate appearance change or because of the long term change. I take it orally here and there as well but not on a schedule.

[YOLF]

Here's a quick update on my previous post on dissolving c60 in jojoba oil. I kept adding c60 in 20 mg increments to 100 ml and when I got to 140 mg it seemed to stop dissolving completely. I let it magnetically stir another 4 or 4 days after that and it looked mostly dissolved. Color was a fairly dark violet/red, more red I'd say than c60 in the evoo I usually use. Given that my scale is probably only accurate only to a few milligrams, I probably had a bit over 140 mg in my mix. I'd guess solubility of c60 in jojoba is somewhere between 130 mg and 140 mg per 100 ml. When I filtered it, there seemed to be a slight bit more undissolved c60 than I usually see after 80 mg to 100 ml evoo mixes. Attached are a few pictures to illustrate including a close up of the filter.

Not sure what to do with this stuff. Maybe I'll try it as lotion on some scars I'd had most of my life.

Howard

Make sure to take pics of your next C60 EVOO batch to compare with. What would be the best edible oil to dissolve C60 in? I'd really like to see a smaller dose size...

It's unlikely, niner. Freebytes is seeing results the same day, while the experiment with the Japanese women took far longer to show a difference when compared with a control-- LF-SQ cream that was applied on a face twice daily was not effective at 4th week, but significantly more effective than the placebo at 8th week.

Turnbuckle, yes, I attribute it to the standard appearance of the oil, and I think she may be referring to my usage of the day. However, I go long periods of time using it (a couple months) then long periods of time not using it. She seems to be able to tell when I use it even if I try to hide being oily; however, it is something that is difficult to hide. I am not sure if she is commenting because of the immediate appearance change or because of the long term change. I take it orally here and there as well but not on a schedule.

Tell us about your wife/gf, is she a science/math type? Does she routinely give you compliments if she sees you trying to look your best? As a control, how about getting a bad haircut and seeing what she thinks? Can you post pics under the same light source of on and off (this will take some effort on your part)?

[niner]

What would be the best edible oil to dissolve C60 in? I'd really like to see a smaller dose size...

I think olive oil is going to be pretty tough to beat. I use a lot of olive oil on food, so when I want to dose with c60-oo, I just use it instead of my regular oil. Tonight I had a tablespoon of c60-oo poured over sweet potatoes. If you use it like this, the dose size becomes a non-issue. It helps to use a good-tasting oil for your c60-oo.

[hav]

Another possible choice for an apparently very healthy oil is Sea Buckthorn Oil. I picked up a little high purity fruit oil extract to check it out and the flavor might be a little too rich for general consumption. It's also pretty deep blood red in color to start with so if you mixed in c60, it might turn close to black. Not all that common yet in the Western world so its not going to be a cost effective alternative to olive oil which is going to be tough to beat.

I'm going to try mixing up the ethyl oleate niner suggested. I'm hopeful that might have higher c60 solubility than olive oil. If it's high enough, putting it into capsules may be practical.

Howard

[YOLF]

Cool, can't wait to see how it turns out!

[hav]

Been mixing ethyl oleate about a week now, starting at 80 mg c60 to 100 ml liquid. After a few days it seemed all dissolved so I added 20 mg and today that looked all dissolved too so now I'm up to 120 mg. The liquid is much thinner than olive oil requiring much lower spinning speed to keep it from splashing out to the beaker. The odor seems pretty synthetic to me, kind of like fresh plastic, so I suspect an animal might turn its nose up at food soaked in it. Not sure the c60 is dissolving as quickly as it did in jojoba and the solution darkened much more quickly. But so far so good.

Got another idea. When I hit the point were no more c60 is dissolving, I was thinking of seeing what would happen if I added a small amount of lecithin granules. To see if it increases c60 solubility. I figure the solution is so thin that a little thickening side effect might not inhibit the stirring very much. Wouldn't want to make it so thick it prevented filtering, however, if that's possible. Would 5mg be a good starting point for that?

Howard

[niner]

Been mixing ethyl oleate about a week now, starting at 80 mg c60 to 100 ml liquid. After a few days it seemed all dissolved so I added 20 mg and today that looked all dissolved too so now I'm up to 120 mg. The liquid is much thinner than olive oil requiring much lower spinning speed to keep it from splashing out to the beaker. The odor seems pretty synthetic to me, kind of like fresh plastic, so I suspect an animal might turn its nose up at food soaked in it. Not sure the c60 is dissolving as quickly as it did in jojoba and the solution darkened much more quickly. But so far so good.

Cool. Ethyl oleate should be lower viscosity than olive oil. Esters are famous for having interesting smells, particularly the lower molecular weight esters. Ethyl oleate has a lot of hydrocarbon character, so I'm not surprised if it smells like a chemical. My point is that I think the smell is most likely a characteristic of the pure compound, and not a sign of contamination. If you didn't want to swallow it (I would understand that choice...) you could try it topically. I'd love to see some analytical results on it, like chromatography and mass spec. (That's easier said than done unless you have a friend who works in a lab.) It could also be useful in a cell culture experiment where the enzymes needed to hydrolyze the olive oil triglyceride presumably would be absent.

Got another idea. When I hit the point were no more c60 is dissolving, I was thinking of seeing what would happen if I added a small amount of lecithin granules. To see if it increases c60 solubility. I figure the solution is so thin that a little thickening side effect might not inhibit the stirring very much. Wouldn't want to make it so thick it prevented filtering, however, if that's possible. Would 5mg be a good starting point for that?

Well, 5mg isn't much lecithin, but I'm not sure what it would tell you. Lecithin is an emulsifier, but c60/Et Oleate is all hydrocarbon (except for a couple oxygen atoms) so that wouldn't be a factor. It would complicate the results because then you would be getting c60 reacting with some of the components of the lecithin.

[hav]

If you didn't want to swallow it (I would understand that choice...) you could try it topically. I'd love to see some analytical results on it, like chromatography and mass spec. (That's easier said than done unless you have a friend who works in a lab.)

I don't think I'm brave enough to take any myself... was thinking someone with some mice or rats might be interested in using it for an experiment. Just not sure an animal would eat any voluntarily if it didn't smell appetizing.

Well, 5mg isn't much lecithin, but I'm not sure what it would tell you. Lecithin is an emulsifier, but c60/Et Oleate is all hydrocarbon (except for a couple oxygen atoms) so that wouldn't be a factor. It would complicate the results because then you would be getting c60 reacting with some of the components of the lecithin.

Maybe not such a good idea.

Howard

Edited by hav, 11 December 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[hav]

Here's an update on my c60 mixing experiment with ethyl oleate:

Been slowly adding incremental amounts of c60 to 100 ml of ethyl oleate, letting it mix for 3 or 4 days, then letting it sit for a day and checking to see if any noticeable film settles on the bottom before adding a little and mixing some more. I finally noticed a slight film after hitting 200 mg. I think I'm probably very near or slightly past the limit which seems to be about 2x the solubility in olive oil. I'm going to let it mix another few days before filtering it.

Howard

[cuprous]

Here's an update on my c60 mixing experiment with ethyl oleate:

Been slowly adding incremental amounts of c60 to 100 ml of ethyl oleate, letting it mix for 3 or 4 days, then letting it sit for a day and checking to see if any noticeable film settles on the bottom before adding a little and mixing some more. I finally noticed a slight film after hitting 200 mg. I think I'm probably very near or slightly past the limit which seems to be about 2x the solubility in olive oil. I'm going to let it mix another few days before filtering it.

Howard

Howard - just curious - what is your objective here? Unless you're somehow allergic to olive oil why not just take 2x the amount rather than try to devise a super-concentrated mix. Again, just curious.
(oops, sorry, just saw above that you're not sure what to do with it but maybe scar application. )

Edited by cuprous, 11 January 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[hav]

Howard - just curious - what is your objective here? Unless you're somehow allergic to olive oil why not just take 2x the amount rather than try to devise a super-concentrated mix. Again, just curious.
(oops, sorry, just saw above that you're not sure what to do with it but maybe scar application. )

Primarily to determine if there's some way to dissolve enough c60 to fit into a gelcap or capsule. 2x more solubility is a step in that direction.

My secondary object, which might be more important, is to try an shed more light on what the c60 might be reacting with in the body and in olive oil. Some think it might be polyphenols or other things that exist in olive oil in relatively small amounts. Ethyl oleate is interesting because its close to a pure ester of oleic acid. Oleic acid exists in olive oil in the range of 55% to 83%, depending on the quality and country of origin. Ethyl oleate seems to be used in pharmaceuticals, as a food additive, and at least one supplement as a delivery vehicle for oil soluble substances. Also, ethyl oleate is naturally produced in the body during ethanol digestion. So there's a good chance c60/ethyl oleate adducts form in the body all on their own, as a c60/evoo user digests alcoholic beverages... which might have something to do with why my alcohol tolerance has increased since I began using c60/evoo.

The bigger questions are what the toxicity and lifespan effects of c60 dissolved in ethyl oleate might be. And at what dosage? Maybe c60/evoo users should avoid alcohol. Or drink more. I think we need someone with lab rats to figure all that out. I've only determined so far that it does dissolve pretty well.

Howard

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Why the olive oil couldnt keep the C60 ok ? The concentration of C60 is very low in it usually, and if the bottle is UV protecting glass.. Room temperature should be fine isnt it ?

[YOLF]

It is the repeated exposure to oxygen in the environment. If stored in a cool dark place it will likely last much longer.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

cool means room temperature right ?

Im not fully confident to put it in the freezer (-18°C) due to eventual thermic shock

Edited by Shinobi, 12 January 2014 - 10:20 PM.