8 replies to this topic

[chemicalambrosia]

Relatively new study on an herb with not too much information available and even less discussion. Seems interesting!:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23453939

Antidepressant-like effect of flavonoids extracted from Apocynum venetum leaves on brain monoamine levels and dopaminergic system.

Zheng M, Fan Y, Shi D, Liu C.

Source

The Central Laboratory, Changchun Normal University, Changchun, Jilin 130032, China. zhengmeizhu2008@sohu.com

Abstract


ETHNOPHARMACOLOGICAL RELEVANCE:

Apocynum venetum L. (Apocynaceae), a traditional medicinal plant, has been used for the improvement of emotions in Asian countries.
AIM OF THE STUDY:

We explored the antidepressant-like effect and monoaminergic mechanism of a flavonoids extract from Apocynum venetum leaves (AV-extract).
MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Effect of AV-extract (25, 50 and 100 mg/kg, i.g.) on mice's immobility time was assessed in forced swim test (FST) and tail suspension test (TST). The locomotor activity was evaluated in the open-field test (OFT). Additionally, the main monoamine neurotransmitters serotonin (5-HT), noradrenaline (NA) and dopamine (DA) and their metabolites 5-hydroxyindole-3-acetic acid (5-HIAA), 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC) and homovanillic acid (HVA) in the mouse hippocampus involved in the antidepressant-like effect of AV-extract was also determined by liquid chromatography-electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometry (LC-ESI-MS-MS).
RESULTS:

AV-extract (50 and 100 mg/kg, i.g.) administration significantly reduced the immobility time in both the FST and TST without accompanying changes in locomotor activity in the OFT. It was also found that the AV-extract significantly increased the concentrations of the main neurotransmitters NE and DA along with their respective metabolites DOPAC, HVA in the hippocampus. The antidepressant-like effect of the AV-extract (50 mg/kg, i.g.) was prevented by the pretreatment of mice with SCH23390 (0.05 mg/kg, i.g., a dopamine D1 receptor antagonist) or sulpiride (50 mg/kg, i.g., a dopamine D2 receptor antagonist).
CONCLUSION:

The AV-extract produced significant antidepressant-like effects, which likely attribute to increased NE and DA along with their respective metabolites DOPAC, HVA in the mouse hippocampus, and dependent on interaction with dopaminergic (D1 and D2 receptor) systems.
Copyright © 2013 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.

There was a previous thread on this, but this was prior to this study. http://www.longecity...sdepression/ I noticed this herb in this product: http://www.swansonvi...ls-120-veg-caps , so I started googling. It is available as a single extract in the patented form as Posinol and also in bulk and bulk extract. There sure isn't much in the way of anecdotes on this that I can see, nor a lot of research. Has anyone tried it? Somebody guinea pig it, please.

[nupi]

Do we have any idea if it affect Serotonin? I would hate to mix serotonergics with my SSRI, but otherwise it does sound interesting for sure.

Edit: ordered a bottle of Posinol from iHerb

Edited by nupi, 24 October 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[chemicalambrosia]

I don't have any clue if it affects serotonin or not, but Rhodiola rosea, Bacopa, and Saint John's wort are in that Swanson blend. It is nice to hear you are going to be trying it, be sure to report back. There is a stunning lack of reviews of this stuff. I'll probably order some and give it a shot some time, but I'm taking a number of other things that would be confounding factors( Perika St Johns wort and Selegiline, for example). I also already have a number of things I already have in my possession that I'm going to try before I buy anything new (noopept, bacopa, etc). I don't want to add multiple things at once, so it will still be a while before I get to give this a try.

[normalizing]

its dogbane and as all dogbane types, it is toxic. Dogbane contains cymarin, a cardiogenic toxin that causes cardiac arrhythmia in humans.

dunno what you guys are thinking

[chemicalambrosia]

http://examine.com/s...ocynum venetum/
I don't know how I missed the examine article, I thought it was too obscure to be on there. It is definitely worth reading if you are interested in this herb, there are a lot of studies referenced that I didn't look at on pub med. A couple interesting quotes:

There is minimal evidence overall, but the plant seems safe enough to drink as a food product. That being said, it does share a lot of similar bioactives as St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum) including the once novel hyperforin. This suggests that there may be similar drug-drug interactions, although this has not been sufficiently tested.

The anxiolytic properties of the leaf extract (100-125mg/kg in mice) doses is fully mediated by the GABA_A receptor, while lower doses (22.5-30mg/kg) are not; this is thought to be due to Kaempferol which is active at 0.02-1mg/kg oral intake.^[16]

its dogbane and as all dogbane types, it is toxic. Dogbane contains cymarin, a cardiogenic toxin that causes cardiac arrhythmia in humans.

dunno what you guys are thinking

Quotes from examine:

It should not be confused with the related plant Apocynum cannabinum (Indian Hemp) nor the related plant Apocynum androsaemifolium, both of which have traditional usage for heart health due to their Cymarin content which is therapeutic at low doses but toxic at higher doses; apocynum venetum does have a cymarin content as well (113μg/g in the leaves)[7] which is regarded as safe[4] although the higher levels in the aged stem (1,310μg/g) may not be.

The LD50 of apocynus venetum appears to be greater than 10g/kg in rats and preliminary genotoxic and teratogenic studies have failed to find any harm associated with the plant,[4] and later a 30 day test failed to find any abnormalities up to 30g/kg in mice[40] and in continuing the in vitro studies a lack of genotoxicity was repeated and no abnormalities in sperm cells were noted.[40]

Also note this is traditionally used in Chinese medicine and in Chinese and Japanese teas. It is also in a few supplements marketed in the US. That doesn't mean its safe, but the toxicology studies are reassuring as long as you aren't using some extract that increases the cymarin levels or obtaining the wrong plant. Caution is warranted of course...

[nupi]

The GABA part is not really satisfying though. I was hoping it would be purely NE and DA...

[normalizing]

http://examine.com/s...ocynum venetum/
I don't know how I missed the examine article, I thought it was too obscure to be on there. It is definitely worth reading if you are interested in this herb, there are a lot of studies referenced that I didn't look at on pub med. A couple interesting quotes:

There is minimal evidence overall, but the plant seems safe enough to drink as a food product. That being said, it does share a lot of similar bioactives as St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum) including the once novel hyperforin. This suggests that there may be similar drug-drug interactions, although this has not been sufficiently tested.

The anxiolytic properties of the leaf extract (100-125mg/kg in mice) doses is fully mediated by the GABA_A receptor, while lower doses (22.5-30mg/kg) are not; this is thought to be due to Kaempferol which is active at 0.02-1mg/kg oral intake.^[16]

its dogbane and as all dogbane types, it is toxic. Dogbane contains cymarin, a cardiogenic toxin that causes cardiac arrhythmia in humans.

dunno what you guys are thinking

Quotes from examine:

It should not be confused with the related plant Apocynum cannabinum (Indian Hemp) nor the related plant Apocynum androsaemifolium, both of which have traditional usage for heart health due to their Cymarin content which is therapeutic at low doses but toxic at higher doses; apocynum venetum does have a cymarin content as well (113μg/g in the leaves)[7] which is regarded as safe[4] although the higher levels in the aged stem (1,310μg/g) may not be.

The LD50 of apocynus venetum appears to be greater than 10g/kg in rats and preliminary genotoxic and teratogenic studies have failed to find any harm associated with the plant,[4] and later a 30 day test failed to find any abnormalities up to 30g/kg in mice[40] and in continuing the in vitro studies a lack of genotoxicity was repeated and no abnormalities in sperm cells were noted.[40]

Also note this is traditionally used in Chinese medicine and in Chinese and Japanese teas. It is also in a few supplements marketed in the US. That doesn't mean its safe, but the toxicology studies are reassuring as long as you aren't using some extract that increases the cymarin levels or obtaining the wrong plant. Caution is warranted of course...

can easily be confused for some of the toxic cousins is what i was worried about. sure, also adultaration is a problem. especially by chinese manufacturers, you never know what they put in there...

[chemicalambrosia]

The GABA part is not really satisfying though. I was hoping it would be purely NE and DA...

Yes, I agree with you there. It makes me a little more wary of taking it long-term. It seems like it might be a great thing to take short term for someone depressed to help get them out of a slump though. It is still on the list of things to try for me.

can easily be confused for some of the toxic cousins is what i was worried about. sure, also adultaration is a problem. especially by chinese manufacturers, you never know what they put in there...

Is Apocynum Cannabinum found in Aisa? It seems to be an American plant. It is always good to be cautious...especially of Chinese manufacturers, but it might be nearly impossible for them to accidentally substitute a native American plant for a plant that is native to China. Also, there is a manufacturer with a patented product out, and that is probably a pretty safe bet. Thank you for raising the issue though, I think this is a novel herb in the West and its good to get info out about it.

[Kinesis]

I don't have any clue if it affects serotonin or not, but Rhodiola rosea, Bacopa, and Saint John's wort are in that Swanson blend. It is nice to hear you are going to be trying it, be sure to report back. There is a stunning lack of reviews of this stuff. I'll probably order some and give it a shot some time, but I'm taking a number of other things that would be confounding factors( Perika St Johns wort and Selegiline, for example). I also already have a number of things I already have in my possession that I'm going to try before I buy anything new (noopept, bacopa, etc). I don't want to add multiple things at once, so it will still be a while before I get to give this a try.

I’ve taken that Swanson blend (Emotional Wellness) for years, often on the same days as amitriptyline, which is among other things a serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. I generally keep doses modest especially when taking multiple agents, but if anything in the Swanson formula seriously messed with monoamine levels, particularly serotonin, it seems likely I’d have noticed.

I suspect the theory about hypericum (SJW) working as an SSRI was flawed, probably originating out of the serotonin deficit theory of depression when SSRIs came into vogue. Shallow reasoning to the effect that if SSRIs work, and if hypericum works, then hypericum may have a similar mode of action. If so, it’s outdated as a 286 microprocessor. Check out for example the current Wikipedia page on SJW.

This of course is not a suggestion to run out and simultaneously megadose multiple agents, but it is a suggestion that some of fear about taking these herbs with pharmaceuticals is paranoia that has run past its expiration date. Caution is always appropriate; hypericum is known to interact with drug metabolizing enzymes; but serotonin syndrome seems an exaggerated risk with most of these herbal remedies.