22 replies to this topic

[rarefried]

Older study, don't recall having seen it here and apologies if its been posted before:

Autophagy protects organelles, cells, and organisms against several stress conditions. Induction of autophagy by resveratrol requires the nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide–dependent deacetylase sirtuin 1 (SIRT1). In this paper, we show that the acetylase inhibitor spermidine stimulates autophagy independent of SIRT1 in human and yeast cells as well as in nematodes. Although resveratrol and spermidine ignite autophagy through distinct mechanisms, these compounds stimulate convergent pathways that culminate in concordant modifications of the acetylproteome. Both agents favor convergent deacetylation and acetylation reactions in the cytosol and in the nucleus, respectively. Both resveratrol and spermidine were able to induce autophagy in cytoplasts (enucleated cells). Moreover, a cytoplasm-restricted mutant of SIRT1 could stimulate autophagy, suggesting that cytoplasmic deacetylation reactions dictate the autophagic cascade. At doses at which neither resveratrol nor spermidine stimulated autophagy alone, these agents synergistically induced autophagy. Altogether, these data underscore the importance of an autophagy regulatory network of antagonistic deacetylases and acetylases that can be pharmacologically manipulated.

http://jcb.rupress.o.../192/4/615.full

[Anagram 3.3]

How do I get Spermidine?

[maxwatt]

It is found in mushrooms, especially pleurotes (oyster mushrooms) and in Agaricus species, such as supermarket white and brown button mushrooms.

[niner]

It's called spermidine for a reason...

[Anagram 3.3]

mmmmmm


Mushrooms, cheese, dairy(in general), and meats.

[timar]

Look at this topic. Mushrooms are a good source of spermidine but there are even better sources (wheat germ, natto or blow jobs - you choose! )

[DorianGrey]

Any ideas on an ideal dosing in human? It looks like you cannot get a lot of spermidine from food (maybe 10mg in 40g wheat germ which is too much to just pour it in your yogurt, natto is also not an option as you cannot store it for long, Broccoli has a bit, Grapefruit has zero, it's all the precursor Putrescine and I haven't seen data for the conversion to SPD). You can order it, 5g is about $82.

Also, how much Resveratrol would be needed? There's a study in mice where an effect on SIRT1 is seen at 4.9mg/kg/d.

And on another note: What about Trehalose to round it up?

Edited by DorianGrey, 05 November 2013 - 03:53 AM.

[rarefried]

For breakfast I mix 1/3 cup of wheat germ (approx 40 grams worth) in a half cup of yoghurt, along with some nuts and dried fruit. It tastes excellent.

[DorianGrey]

For breakfast I mix 1/3 cup of wheat germ (approx 40 grams worth) in a half cup of yoghurt, along with some nuts and dried fruit. It tastes excellent.

I went to Bulk Barn and the only wheat germ is a brown toasted quality. I just wonder in how far that may impact the polyamine content?

The wheat germ is neither coarse nor fine, and the particular polyamine is probably quite volatile, so the content may be really depleted (or not). I found a study abstract for coffee bean and they stated polyamines are depleted during roasting.

[Hebbeh]

For breakfast I mix 1/3 cup of wheat germ (approx 40 grams worth) in a half cup of yoghurt, along with some nuts and dried fruit. It tastes excellent.

I went to Bulk Barn and the only wheat germ is a brown toasted quality. I just wonder in how far that may impact the polyamine content?

The wheat germ is neither coarse nor fine, and the particular polyamine is probably quite volatile, so the content may be really depleted (or not). I found a study abstract for coffee bean and they stated polyamines are depleted during roasting.

This is what I eat. It's cheap, it's raw, and it's from a quality manufacturer.

http://www.swansonvi...-germ-32-oz-pkg

[DorianGrey]

Thanks, doesn't say it's toasted. Swanson also sells Trehalose.

[blood]

Wheat germ isn't a solution for the many folks with wheat sensitivity.

Dr Davis, the Track Your Plaque guy, argues no one should be consuming wheat.

[DorianGrey]

Is that against wheat or bleached industrial flour?

[eighthman]

How about a once a week fasting period of 20-24 hours using Acipimox or niacin - and then using resveratrol, trehalose and spermidine?

[Andreas]

I make my own yogurt with the LKM512 bacteria. I think they produce spermidine in your gut, which is also good since they are volatile. Plus there is also bifido, and they create a very lovely environment in my guts. I use soy-yogurt since I want to be kind to animals (Plus I do not want growth hormones, have them treated badly, or to much protein and methionine).

[rarefried]

Out of curiosity, Andreas, where did you get hold of the LKM512 bacteria? The only place I've found it is the Japanese online mall Rakuten.

[Andreas]

You are correct Rarefried, only Japan has them (although I think I saw somewhere something about Canada). So I took a crash course in Japanese I then specifically ordered just the bacterias, and not the "electronic blanket" they often ship with their products. I then store my bacterias in the freezer and the fridge. It works great with my CR-diet! I used to eat it with grapefruit as I wrongly assumed it contained an additional spermidine. But now I just eat it with some native berries and some carbs, plus my home-made organic mûsli (for different types of fibers, herbs, antioxidants/spices, etc.)

[DorianGrey]

How about a once a week fasting period of 20-24 hours using Acipimox or niacin - and then using resveratrol, trehalose and spermidine?

Acipimox is prescription, so us regular Joes would have a hard time getting it, it also seems to have some side-effects. As a healthy person I don't risk any significant (negative) side-effects. Good old Niacin sounds like the better idea.

I tried to do at least a 72h fasting over the holiday but caught that common bug that half the population suffered from in the past few weeks. I recovered very quickly but lost the 4-5 pounds buffer needed for fasting. It's the only time of year I can go with the lowered energy level, too many duties. Maybe next year then.

The idea was to boost autophagy with resveratrol, bioavailable curcumin and trehalose. I also started wheat germ 3 table spoons on most days, has more than just spermidine to it, is quite cheap and tastes okay in yogurt with some sugar-free cereals.

As far as I know it takes about 48h of fasting to get your autophagy genes active, so 20-24h for one day is probably not enough.

[hav]

Here's a mouse study showing favorable effects from 4 to 8-hour daily time-restricted feeding:

Time-restricted feeding without reducing caloric intake prevents metabolic diseases in mice fed a high-fat diet.

Here's a human one:

The effect on health of alternate day calorie restriction: eating less and more than needed on alternate days prolongs life.

There's a growing volume of studies on the neuroprotective effect of intermittent fasting under 24 hours. Here's one dealing with humans:

Neuroprotective potential of the Bahadori leanness program: a "mini-fast with exercise" strategy.

And a mouse study comparing 24- and 48-hour fasting effects in the liver and brain with 48-hour being better but 24-hour still being pretty significant:

Short-term fasting induces profound neuronal autophagy


Howard

[Andreas]

I find it rather hard to fast on a CR diet, since my BMI is already rather low. What do you guys think is best, eat more in order to fast, or continue with a daily 16h fast? If these findings are correct, then maybe it is best to eat a lot and then have longer periods of fasting. What do you think? Or are those genes activated also on a CR-diet, and thus, relief CR-diets from the need to fast?

[timar]

Out of curiosity, Andreas, where did you get hold of the LKM512 bacteria? The only place I've found it is the Japanese online mall Rakuten.

You probably don't need to take the trouble to order those LKM512 bacteria from Japan, as other strains of bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis may have the same benefits. I use a starter from Chr. Hansen, containing bifidobacterium animals ssp. lactis BB12 and lactobacillus acidophilus LA5. A 2 g flask for 4€ lasts for about 100 liters of yogurt (more than one year for me, if kept in the freezer). I experienced tremendous health effects from that yogurt (I'm making it for two years now). I would suggest to enrich the milk with inulin, FOS and/or lactulose prior to fermantation as those prebiotica will markedly enhance the growth of the probiotic bacteiria, improve taste and texture of the yogurt and provide health benefits on their own. I get the best results with 20 g inulin plus 20 g 66% lactulose sirup for one liter of milk.

[Andreas]

Timar,
Other bifido have great health benefits, but they are not the ones which are proven to increase these nice polysacharides. I think addition of FOS , including inulin, which you do is a great idea though. I thought about myself, but couldn't find any nice natural FOS source (except apples perhaps).

Do you sterilize the milk, and do you add the sugars before or after you heat up /sterilize, the milk?

[timar]

They aren't the exact strain that has been proven to produce those polysaccharides, but they are the same subspecies with the same metabolic capacities, so it seems very likely that they actually do produce them.

I buy organic UHT milk, so I don't need to sterilize it. I just heat it up to ~38°C in the microwave and stirr in the prebiotics and the culture (either the freeze dried powder or two tablespoons of the last batch, for up to five times). What do you mean by natural FOS source? AFAIK all the inulin or shorter chain FOS is produced from chicory root. Inulin is less processed than FOS and pretty much identical to the refined root extract. Is is more hygroscopic than FOS and gives a thicker texture. It is almost without taste, wheareas FOS will sweeten the yogurt.

Edited by timar, 15 January 2014 - 11:25 PM.