49 replies to this topic

[harris13.3]

I remember a story about a teenage girl named Brooke Greenberg who looked like a toddler despite being in her late teens/early twenties. Here is a picture of her:



She had health issues and had the mental age of a 1 year old. But she is still alive today. Here is a similar case, except instead of being stuck at toddlerhood, he is stuck at twelve.

DUBAI: Mohammad Farooq Abou Al Hassan, a Jordanian of Palestinian origin, is your average 24-year-old Arab male. The only difference is that he hasn't aged a day since he was 12 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4my3xU1TRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDf9lN8Z7w4

Screenshot:




Link: http://gulfnews.com/...-at-12-1.998141





At least when you're 12, you can still do most of the stuff that adults can do. I think this is an even more interesting case than Brooke Greenberg. Being 12 forever would be bearable but being a toddler forever wouldn't be too great.

Also another very similar case. Here, the "man" is 30 but also stopped ageing at 12. This one is in China.

Everyone grows old. Everyone but 30-year-old Gao Xiang, who wishes he could escape his Peter Pan life and grow old. Gao looks like exactly a teenage boy, especially when he sings with his childlike voice.

http://www.chinadail...tent_594403.htm

It would be interesting to research these cases further. I can see two possiblities. Either they stopped ageing and the pause in development is a consequence of this, or they are continuing to age internally but their development program has stopped for some reason. Would be nice if their DNA was analyzed to see what is going on. Also would like to analyze their telomeres to see if they are any different from that of actual children. Also it's interesting that they have no wrinkles, despite being adults. I would have expected to see wrinkling but I can't see any.

[Adaptogen]

interesting topic, i'd reckon these people with developmental disorders are actually aging at normal or even accelerated rates, just not physically maturing anymore due to some sort of birth defect. I would guess that most if not all of these people will experience shortened life spans. still would be cool to see some research on it

Edited by Adaptogen, 19 October 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[xEva]

That's fascinating. Even though not having wrinkles at 24 and even 35+ does not impress me -- it happens often enough with normal, healthy people.

I have always admired the prepubescent age. I believe that's when we as species are the most beautiful -- thin, graceful, innocent, angel-like. And incidentally that's when we are also the smartest (just before the neuronal pruning that takes place around then).

Ahhh if only we could go back and remain there indefinitely.. (even though I doubt young men could consider letting go of their sexuality which has such a hold on them lol -- I bet most prefer to die of old age than loose it).

We could organize their telomere test as a community science project -? Someone living in vicinity could track them down and arrange it.

[drtom]

These are fascinating, but serious cases.
More seem to be coming to light, although they are still of the utmost rarity.
There seems to be a consensus that Brooke Greenberg's situation is caused by a stop in (most) development at age 12-18 months.
(Apparently her teeth are more like those of an adult.)
So it is logical that there could be a "stop" in development at about puberty, which is what seems to have happened with the other 2 cases.
There is a lot going on at puberty, gene-wise. Obviously it all has to start somewhere. If the "master switch" fails to operate, then it is possible the sequence of change will not occur.
I don't concur with the proposal that these people are aging at normal, much less accelerated rates. If they do not progress to an older phenotype then they will not be subject to the anatgonistic pleiotropy that underlies a lot of normal aging. For example, growth signals that help our body grow and mature are not needed after puberty.
Excess growth signals (such as those generated by excess nutrition) fuel disorders such as diabetes and cancer.
These people should be spared that. (In a similar, but not identical way that Laron dwarves are spared cancer at the expense of normal stature.)

[niner]

I don't concur with the proposal that these people are aging at normal, much less accelerated rates. If they do not progress to an older phenotype then they will not be subject to the anatgonistic pleiotropy that underlies a lot of normal aging. For example, growth signals that help our body grow and mature are not needed after puberty.
Excess growth signals (such as those generated by excess nutrition) fuel disorders such as diabetes and cancer.
These people should be spared that. (In a similar, but not identical way that Laron dwarves are spared cancer at the expense of normal stature.)

I guess time will tell. They will be subject to glycoxidation, mitochondrial oxidative damage and its attendant spiraling dysfunction, lysosomal dysfunction, photoaging, amyloidosis, and various other things, whether they go through puberty or not. It's certainly not correct to think that they "aren't aging", as the press might suggest. It's not clear in this case whether they have functioning growth signals, or if something else is going on, but I would be a little surprised if they live significantly longer than normal. I suspect that when these guys are 80, they will look like twelve year olds with advanced progeria.

[JohnD60]

As others have said, they are almost certainly aging (imo at an accelerated rate), they are just not maturing/developing.
It is worth noting that there is no one in their 50s, possibly not even in their 40s, with similar conditions.
I remember seeing a tv show on Brooke Greenberg about a year ago. She is constantly sick, the only reason she is still alive is because of extraordinary modern medical interventions.
Andy Milonakis seems to be going strong at 37, but I suspect it to be primarily an act. His persona (and income) is built around being the vulgar, carefree, hard partying guy that looks 15. The persona would not sell very well if it was widely known he was under constant medical supervision.

Edited by JohnD60, 21 October 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Brett Black]

There are drugs that can and have been used to prevent puberty, at least temporarily:
http://en.wikipedia....Puberty_blocker

I wonder if these drugs could be of use for longevity. Maybe some rodent lifespan tests would be worthwhile? They might also have some use in refuting or confirming the theory that aging/death is the result of an intentional genetic program.

Edited by Brett Black, 21 October 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Brett Black]

I have always admired the prepubescent age. I believe that's when we as species are the most beautiful -- thin, graceful, innocent, angel-like. And incidentally that's when we are also the smartest (just before the neuronal pruning that takes place around then).

Ahhh if only we could go back and remain there indefinitely.. (even though I doubt young men could consider letting go of their sexuality which has such a hold on them lol -- I bet most prefer to die of old age than loose it).

I would let go of that sexuality in a microsecond if I could return to late childhood(I still had some stirrings of sexuality in late childhood though.)

When I was about 12 I knew, very strongly, that I didn't want to age any further. It was pretty clear to me that adulthood(and adult expectations, norms, mores, behaviour etc) was shitty compared to being a 12 year old. Many of my peers moronically desired to enter adulthood as quickly as possible.

The growth of pubic hair was the first obvious sign that I was following the typical pubertal trajectory. I cut off the pubic hair at first, but it kept coming back..... :-(

I still aim to return there.

[Sousentendu]

I don't frequent this forum but I saw this post and wanted to add something. My uncle has this issue except most of our family says he is stuck at around 15. He is currently 52 and although he has the physical form and vocal similarities to a 15 year old he IS showing signs of ageing in his skin. Wrinkles aren't very prominent but neither are they in his similarly aged siblings... It's more like the look of skin tightness and general wear. I'd also say that there is a very obvious mental inability to understand mature themes. Whether that's a psychological repercussion or not, I don't know. He does get in fights with all my younger cousins frequently (6-12yr olds). And he often complains of his back, the tall tale signs of being in your 50's.

[Brett Black]

Average mortality rate also happens to be lowest around late childhood, which according to some definitions of ageing would make it the least "aged" period of life:



(http://www.senescenc...definition.html)

[xEva]

It's good to know that I'm not alone liking the prepubescent stage. On the surface of it it seems that the hormonal profile is simple: progesterone is the dominant hormone -- with nothing else, it seems -? What about all the other hormones? I'd like to know a hormonal profile of a prepubescent adolescent.

The hormone I personally think is most aging is whatever gives bulk to both males and females. It is noticeable in females past age 40 and in some obvious endocrine disorders (like k.d.lang). Males go for it though, because it makes them 'BIGGER' lol. So I don't know if plain aromatase inhibitors will suffice. Whatever prevents the bulk seems more important -- what is it exactly, i.e. what hormone gives bulk and breadth? And it fits nicely with anatgonistic pleiotropy concept (what makes one grow at a faster rate is also what is aging).

Edited by xEva, 22 October 2013 - 11:30 PM.

[xEva]

I looked around a bit for delayed puberty syndromes and among other things found Kallmann syndrome, one known representative of which is http://en.wikipedia....iki/Jimmy_Scott

born July 17, 1925, also known as "Little" Jimmy Scott) is an American jazz vocalist famous for his unusually high contralto voice, which is due to Kallmann's syndrome, a very rare genetic condition. ... The condition prevented him from reaching puberty, leaving him with a high, undeveloped voice, hence his nickname "Little" Jimmy Scott.

Here he is in 2004, age 79. Alas no eternal youth there.

[inferno300]

Johnd60 are you suggesting that we shouldn't treat these people like adults like they shouldn't get married have kids or get jobs then.

[inferno300]

But ur right they werent really developing or maturing but still years of experience is STILL years of expierence so i guess time will tell drtom i was wondering should we not treat these people like adults what should they do then and if they refuse to do it can they still mature

[JohnD60]

Johnd60 are you suggesting that we shouldn't treat these people like adults like they shouldn't get married have kids or get jobs then.

No. It is not something I gave any thought to since that is not the topic of the thread.

[inferno300]

Drtom are u suggesting that these 2 people may not be mentally adults should they not get treated like they are now

[InquilineKea]

They probably don't have wrinkles because they probably don't go outside much. I could see how such a condition could prevent someone from going outside much.

It's more like the look of skin tightness and general wear

Is this more of the result of sun damage or of glycation damage?

Edited by InquilineKea, 25 October 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[xEva]

He is only 24. Why do you expect wrinkles?

It's a question of "mature body" development, which is triggered by sex hormones. The 24-y.o. looks like a 12-y.o. because his features and body frame has remained prepubescent.

[inferno300]

He is only 24. Why do you expect wrinkles?

It's a question of "mature body" development, which is triggered by sex hormones. The 24-y.o. looks like a 12-y.o. because his features and body frame has remained prepubescent.

What i am saying is that since these people have not developed or matured should we treat them like kids instead of adults like not driving not getting married or anything else since they only aged but not matured mentally

[Brett Black]

A castrato (Italian, plural: castrati) is a type of classical male singing voice equivalent to that of a soprano, mezzo-soprano, or contralto. The voice is produced by castration of the singer before puberty, or it occurs in one who, due to an endocrinological condition, never reaches sexual maturity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

The Wikipedia article also contains a list of notable Castrati with birth and death dates. I did a quick scan through them and the oldest I could see was 81 years.

However:

A study conducted at a mental institution in Kansas, where a large number of male inmates had been castrated, found that the eunuchs lived an average of 14 years longer than the uncastrated men.[126] A similar study of historical eunuchs in Korea's royal court found a 14 to 19 year increase in lifespan compared to intact men of similar socioeconomic background; these eunuchs had a centenarian rate of over 3%.[127]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration#Medical_consequences

I'm not sure if these were pre or post pubertal castration cases though.

Edited by Brett Black, 26 October 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[Brett Black]

The hormone I personally think is most aging is whatever gives bulk to both males and females. It is noticeable in females past age 40 and in some obvious endocrine disorders (like k.d.lang). Males go for it though, because it makes them 'BIGGER' lol. So I don't know if plain aromatase inhibitors will suffice. Whatever prevents the bulk seems more important -- what is it exactly, i.e. what hormone gives bulk and breadth? And it fits nicely with anatgonistic pleiotropy concept (what makes one grow at a faster rate is also what is aging).

Well, GnRH agonists are used to block puberty as well as in male-to-female transexuals:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/GnRH_agonist

[inferno300]

I just read the man who is 24 (Mohammad up above) and heres something this man's body is actually smaller not younger and he has normal intelligent it may not LOOK like he's smaller but according to the page all he has is a hormone imbalance

[Eruditus]

I just read the man who is 24 (Mohammad up above) and heres something this man's body is actually smaller not younger and he has normal intelligent it may not LOOK like he's smaller but according to the page all he has is a hormone imbalance

Thank you for bringing the matter to light, but unfortunately all you did was repeat what was already being speculated. I would also like to ask whether you are not in fact him, have a similar condition or know someone with a similar condition? I asks this because you seem very prickly about the topic being brought up in the first place and are consistently misconstruing all that is being said here as insults towards people with this rare condition. Maybe your English is simply not so good, but you should read properly and not assume so much insult as it can make someone seem very paranoid.

[inferno300]

I am sorry for all my comments I didnt mean to insult people

[inferno300]

If your wondering eruditus its because im confused with the mentalliblity of these 2 men its because they want to do adult things but they dont have the mentalliblity to act mature so i feel bad for them im sorry that i acted rude in the last few comments

[niner]

If your wondering eruditus its because im confused with the mentalliblity of these 2 men its because they want to do adult things but they dont have the mentalliblity to act mature so i feel bad for them im sorry that i acted rude in the last few comments

What makes you think they don't have the mental ability to act mature? I don't remember reading that...

[inferno300]

Niner what im trying to say is are they not mentally matured or are they not psychically matured thats all im asking sorry for so many posts tho guys

[xEva]

Well, GnRH agonists are used to block puberty as well as in male-to-female transexuals:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/GnRH_agonist

wiki: GnRH is Gonadotropin-releasing hormone, also known as Luteinizing-hormone-releasing hormone (LHRH) is responsible for the release of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH) from the anterior pituitary. GnRH is what initiates puberty.

I am getting really interested in hormones influencing development and aging. Unfortunately, I have not studied endocrinology yet and anticipate a very steep slope ahead. This does not prevent an idea germinating in my head:

This thread gave me the hunch that the hormone replacement therapy (HRT) for both men and women past middle age is all wrong. I think the right thing to do --for longevity-- is to try to replicate the hormonal panel of a prepubescent adolescent (and not that of a sexually active adult). I also believe the reason why this mistake is repeatedly being made is, of course, because sexuality has such a strong hold on males and they are the ones who still set the goals for society (and also on this board). I personally see young males as unaware victims of their own sex hormones. Nature plays them like puppets and it takes a break from the pull of her strings to realize this. But such a break is seen as a very threatening preposition by most, especially the most badly afflicted, iow those who measure their success and fitness by the bulk of their muscles and frequency and size of their erections -- which, of course is just another characteristic of their raging sex hormones. It seems there is no easy way out of this loop; Nature literally holds them by their balls lol. Luckily, women are not quite as badly afflicted (we have breaks now and then and that's when we start seeing sex hormones and the hold they have on us for what it is: sheer slavery). But I digressed, sorry

In lieu of good grasp of endocrinology, at the moment, the only support to my idea I find in some of Chinese qigong practices based on the old Daoist tradition. I realize that this says nothing to those who have never heard of it, let alone had a chance to give it some thought.. still, most have probably heard of Dao De Jing (this is the modern pinyin spelling) and remember the lines about being like a child. Also, I had a fortune to study one such method, called Child Longevity Qigong; and there practitioners are invited to experience the attitude and feelings of a child (even though the age there is 6-7 y and not 11-12).

The other support to my idea I see in some traditional women practices (like in Immortal Sisters: Secrets of Taoist Women by Thomas Cleary). There, to achieve 'immortality', a woman must 'slay the red dragon' (=stop menstruation); and if she is already past menopause, she must first 'start the red dragon' and then 'slay it' (= resume menstruating and then stop it). I should go back to Cleary and see what herbs were mentioned there in support of the main method, which is meditation (= qi is moved along certain channels in prescribed pattern). Speaking 'hormonally', I believe that these old 'immortality' practices in fact worked on hormones. Of course, there is no 'studies' that would confirm or deny this (also 'immortality' in the Daoist tradition is what in modern times is understood as the quest for extreme longevity -- just what this board is all about).


Now, returning to HRT, the current method is to supply estrogen and progesterone for women or testosterone for men, but I think that the right thing to do is to make GnRH stop altogether and supply progesterone only, like it is in a prepubescent adolescent (-? I hope I got it right, I have lots of reading ahead). And of course there is no reason to wait for the age-associated decline in sex hormones; one can start any time.

I wonder what you guys think about this and would very much appreciate any clues and ideas about this that you could share. Thanks

[JohnD60]

Now, returning to HRT, the current method is to supply estrogen and progesterone for women or testosterone for men, but I think that the right thing to do is to make GnRH stop altogether and supply progesterone only, like it is in a prepubescent adolescent (-? I hope I got it right, I have lots of reading ahead). And of course there is no reason to wait for the age-associated decline in sex hormones; one can start any time.

I wonder what you guys think about this and would very much appreciate any clues and ideas about this that you could share. Thanks

Google a chart of growth hormone levels by age. Prepubescent girls and boys have levels 10x times that of adults. Mantaining such levels via supplementation throughout a lifetime, would be probably be impossible, certainly dealy. http://www.ghsmax.com/aging.php

[inferno300]

Hmm are hormones in are body dosent finish in our body until were in are early 20s