108 replies to this topic

[Mind]

I gave 2 old cats of mine C60oo. One had a mysterious disease that went un-diagnosed until his death. He took C60oo for 4 to 6 months. No real difference in his health or demeanor. The other cat got C60oo for about 2-3 months, then stopped because I ran out. He is nearing 15 years old. We didn't notice any subjective change in his health or demeanor when he was on C60oo.

I gave 2 old cats of mine C60oo. One had a mysterious disease that went un-diagnosed until his death. He took C60oo for 4 to 6 months. No real difference in his health or demeanor. The other cat got C60oo for about 2-3 months, then stopped because I ran out. He is nearing 15 years old. We didn't notice any subjective change in his health or demeanor when he was on C60oo.

[resting]

Purely subjective but seem to have decreased sensitivity to cold. Previous comfort level was around 16 c now 14 c. No issues with extended periods of 7c.

[caliope]

No particular reasoning. It just seemed like a reasonable amount of OO/day, serving. There's so little support for any level of human dosing, I think it's all just shooting in the dark.

Some of us have looked at dose response and at effective pharmacokinetics. The minimum dose is quite small; less than a mg/d for a typical adult. People can and do take a lot more, but I'm not convinced that they're getting much more out of it. OTOH, I don't think it hurts to take more.

I'm not convinced there's any good data regarding effective or optimal human dosing. I'm also skeptical there's any benefit from it beyond what's inherent in the EVOO.

It seems there's a simple way to eliminate the placebo effect from consideration. Just get two bottles, fill one with EVOO and one with C60 EVOO. Label them one and two. Ask someone to dose you with one of the bottles, in such a way you can't see which one they're using. (Make sure they note if it was bottle one or two.) Then repeat with the other bottle a few days later. If you can accurately predict which one was C60, I would say that you're getting real results. I am of course assuming that the two products taste the same.

[niner]

It seems there's a simple way to eliminate the placebo effect from consideration. Just get two bottles, fill one with EVOO and one with C60 EVOO. Label them one and two. Ask someone to dose you with one of the bottles, in such a way you can't see which one they're using. (Make sure they note if it was bottle one or two.) Then repeat with the other bottle a few days later. If you can accurately predict which one was C60, I would say that you're getting real results. I am of course assuming that the two products taste the same.

In my experience, having made my own c60-oo, the mixture tastes the same as the oil that you start with. However, it doesn't look the same. The c60 changes the color of the oil significantly. You'd need to either add a dye to the placebo or have some way to dose it without looking at it.

There have been a number of reports of old dogs behaving much more youthfully after getting c60-oo. Presumably the placebo effect would not be active in an animal, unless the animal is taking cues from its owner, which is not inconceivable.

If you run a placebo test as you've described here, you'll need more than a few days for the c60 to wash out. The wash-out period would be days or weeks, depending on dose.

[AgeVivo]

I have discussed with Fathi Moussa recently, It could be dangerous to make one's own c60: if not well done you could have other compounds created that can be very toxic.

[Adaptogen]

that is rather troubling. can you elaborate on these dangers?

[free10]

I have discussed with Fathi Moussa recently, It could be dangerous to make one's own c60: if not well done you could have other compounds created that can be very toxic.

The only possible dangers I could see would be in not using the pristine oven dried C60, so that you had solvent contamination or other non C60 molecules in it or both, or oils that were not olive oil that it was put in, to make the brew. But then again some should never be allowed to drive a car or pick up a hammer, for safety reasons. Make room for doubting as Kipling would say.

The reality seems, that so far, we don't see any toxic effects after a year or more of making it and using it, and we have had some of the strongest and craziest positive health results along the way.

In two months or so I will have been taking it for a full year myself, and if I died one day later from whatever cause I think that taking it this last year was more fun and productive, than any other things I could have done, to enhance my life and too me that is what life is all about.

When he was interviewed he had no fear of the C60 mix, but when asked if he took it he laughed and said no, as though that would be an absurd idea, even to want too. To many the idea of wanting to stop or reverse aging is absurd in some basic way, for them.

If I remember right we have people here giving it to others or their pets, but not taking it themselves.

[caliope]

It seems there's a simple way to eliminate the placebo effect from consideration. Just get two bottles, fill one with EVOO and one with C60 EVOO. Label them one and two. Ask someone to dose you with one of the bottles, in such a way you can't see which one they're using. (Make sure they note if it was bottle one or two.) Then repeat with the other bottle a few days later. If you can accurately predict which one was C60, I would say that you're getting real results. I am of course assuming that the two products taste the same.

In my experience, having made my own c60-oo, the mixture tastes the same as the oil that you start with. However, it doesn't look the same. The c60 changes the color of the oil significantly. You'd need to either add a dye to the placebo or have some way to dose it without looking at it.

There have been a number of reports of old dogs behaving much more youthfully after getting c60-oo. Presumably the placebo effect would not be active in an animal, unless the animal is taking cues from its owner, which is not inconceivable.

If you run a placebo test as you've described here, you'll need more than a few days for the c60 to wash out. The wash-out period would be days or weeks, depending on dose.

Yes, my thought was that the dosing would be done such that that you couldn't see which one was used. Close your eyes, simple enough. The pet experiences prove that there is definitely some sort of physical effect from either the C60 or the EVOO, but it doesn't establish which one. Of course the same procedure could be used on pets - just give them plain EVOO and see if you get the same response.

As far as the wash out period, that could be as long as needed. I am curious though, why the wash out period needs to be so long. The effects I get from C60 only last a day or so. Supposedly the stuff is lingering in my cell membranes for weeks, but I certainly don't feel any different after the first couple days. What's up with that?

[Invariant]

I have discussed with Fathi Moussa recently, It could be dangerous to make one's own c60: if not well done you could have other compounds created that can be very toxic.

Would be good to know what exactly he is worried about. Maybe we can check with our supplier if they are taking appropriate measures to prevent this.

When he was interviewed he had no fear of the C60 mix, but when asked if he took it he laughed and said no, as though that would be an absurd idea, even to want too. To many the idea of wanting to stop or reverse aging is absurd in some basic way, for them.

It may be that he is actually taking it but doesn't want to admit it. If he says he is taking it, that may cause others to do so, since he is an authority on the subject. It is one thing to take a calculated risk for yourself, but quite another to essentially advise others to take this risk. It would also damage his reputation among other researchers, who generally will not advise people take a substance until it has been rigorously tested. On the other hand, he has made some statements that show he is less than rigorous: he stated that c60 is absolutely safe, "we know this for sure". This is ridiculous, since no long-term studies have been done. His understanding may allow him to make better guesses as to the likely outcomes of such experiments, but nobody knows if it does not have long-term adverse effects in human beings.

[hav]

I would expect mixing temperature, uv light exposure, and perhaps the amount of undissolved c60 present to be the greatest areas of concern.

Howard

[Turnbuckle]

I have discussed with Fathi Moussa recently, It could be dangerous to make one's own c60: if not well done you could have other compounds created that can be very toxic.

Would be good to know what exactly he is worried about. Maybe we can check with our supplier if they are taking appropriate measures to prevent this.

This of course undercuts his statement that it is absolutely safe. Apart from that, I expect that C60 will act like many other antioxidants--that in time it becomes a prooxidant. So age, UV exposure, and oxygen content all should be minimized.

[niner]

I have discussed with Fathi Moussa recently, It could be dangerous to make one's own c60: if not well done you could have other compounds created that can be very toxic.

I'd very much like to know more about this. Can you ask him what is the nature of these compounds? How are they formed? How is this best avoided? I suspect that using quality c60, good oil, and avoiding heat, light, and air would result in a good product, but I'd really like to know what Moussa is talking about here.

[blood]

I have discussed with Fathi Moussa recently, It could be dangerous to make one's own c60: if not well done you could have other compounds created that can be very toxic.

Do you mean dangerous to make your own C60-olive oil mixture using C60 purchased from a reputable chemical supply house, or dangerous to make your own C60 itself (maybe if not done properly, you could end up with some C70 contamination etc)?

Edited by blood, 24 November 2013 - 11:55 PM.

[hav]

Was poking around looking for studies of the effects of an air atmosphere on c60 and came across this one on fullerene film materials where they find, much like a fine wine, that pre-aged c60 is superior to fresh material:

Growth and potential damage of human bone-derived cells on fresh and aged fullerene c60 films

Numerous studies have evaluated the therapeutic potential of fullerene derivates against oxidative stress-associated conditions, including the prevention or treatment of arthritis. On the other hand, fullerenes are not only able to quench, but also to generate harmful reactive oxygen species. The reactivity of fullerenes may change in time due to the oxidation and polymerization of fullerenes in an air atmosphere. In this study, we therefore tested the dependence between the age of fullerene films (from one week to one year)...
...
After seven days of cultivation, we did not observe any cytotoxic morphological changes, such as enlarged cells or cytosolic vacuole formation. Furthermore, there was no increased level of DNA damage. The increasing age of the fullerene films did not cause enhancement of cytotoxicity. On the contrary, it resulted in an improvement in the properties of these materials, ....

Howard

[hamishm00]

A "put that in your pipe and smoke it" moment.

[Turnbuckle]

Was poking around looking for studies of the effects of an air atmosphere on c60 and came across this one on fullerene film materials where they find, much like a fine wine, that pre-aged c60 is superior to fresh material:

Growth and potential damage of human bone-derived cells on fresh and aged fullerene c60 films

Numerous studies have evaluated the therapeutic potential of fullerene derivates against oxidative stress-associated conditions, including the prevention or treatment of arthritis. On the other hand, fullerenes are not only able to quench, but also to generate harmful reactive oxygen species. The reactivity of fullerenes may change in time due to the oxidation and polymerization of fullerenes in an air atmosphere. In this study, we therefore tested the dependence between the age of fullerene films (from one week to one year)...
...
After seven days of cultivation, we did not observe any cytotoxic morphological changes, such as enlarged cells or cytosolic vacuole formation. Furthermore, there was no increased level of DNA damage. The increasing age of the fullerene films did not cause enhancement of cytotoxicity. On the contrary, it resulted in an improvement in the properties of these materials, ....

Howard

If you read the full article, this effect seems to have more to do with surface morphology and hydrophobicity, which change as the carbon film ages. It probably has nothing to do with anti-oxidant effects at all. There was no DNA damage to any of the samples, and the C60 substrates were never as good as glass for cell growth.

[resting]

2nd Month review.

1. NOAEL
2. Greatly reduced sleep requirement with no mental exhaustion.
3. Increase stamina and reduced recovery time when exercising. (Indoor rowing)

Specifically at this stage.

1. No change in hair color or growth.
2. No change in skin color or elasticity.
3. No change in eye sight.
4. No change in libido.

[hav]

If you read the full article, this effect seems to have more to do with surface morphology and hydrophobicity, which change as the carbon film ages. It probably has nothing to do with anti-oxidant effects at all. There was no DNA damage to any of the samples, and the C60 substrates were never as good as glass for cell growth.

Sorry I didn't link and paste it but the full-text is available for free. It summarizes allot of issues and prior studies, like c60 bonded to titanium and previously unpublished research on c60 dissolved in DMSO, and problems with prior studies of c60 dissolved in tetrahydrofuran to make it water soluble. As well as a concern speculated in another study that c60 might adhere to damaged dna and make matters worse... which is why this study as a side issue also tested that possible c60 DNA effect... finding none, btw.

This study tested pure c60 films deposited on glass slides. Granted, not as a supplement pre-dissolved in oil. But the focus was to investigate how c60 properties might change upon exposure to air. And the possibility that c60 aged in air might be detrimental to cells due to behavior as a pro-oxidant due to surface air adhesion. Which tracks our concern about raw c60 and whether we might improve on Baati's methods and results by baking off the oxygen and/or mixing it with olive oil in an oxygen free atmosphere. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but there was no mention in Baati of pre-baking their c60 and mixing it in an oxygen free atmosphere. I assume because they didn't do it. Perhaps that question should be added to those for Dr. Moussa. If aged c60 film placed in contact with cell cultures is any indication, this study suggests that maybe the Baati folks got it right all the way around.

But then again, maybe what this study really stands for is that cell cultures might like the oxygen c60 carries on its surface. Perhaps because it is not singlet and is no more reactive than the air we breathe and circulate in our blood stream. Maybe c60 is a red blood cell mimic, of sorts. In any case, Baati did test its olive oil mixture over a four year period so we also know that their olive oil liked what they did. What we don't know for certain is if the c60/oo adducts would be the same if we do things differently. And whether the mix might be better... or dangerous. Early on, we speculated that the color of the mixture might be affected... which Baati indicates is descriptive of the adduct. Has anyone actually done an oxygen deprived mix and inspected the color?

Howard

Edited by hav, 26 November 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

This is a film essentially, similar to graphite. It becomes crosslinked and in any case doesn't get into the cells. Put it in mitochondria, and the whole situation is different.

[david ellis]

Has anyone actually done an oxygen deprived mix and inspected the color?

Howard

My last batch, I did two things differently. (two batches, both were hand shaken.) I ground the C60 between 2 spoons this time. I emptied 50 mL of olive oil, to give more space for shaking. Last time, I poured and mixed the oil in two containers that had a much larger empty space, so there was more contact with air. This time, the color was more purple, not whisky colored like the first batch.

[Hebbeh]

From my experience, the final color is highly dependent on the olive oil used. The greener the oil (usually a peppery or bitter oil indicating a higher poly-phenol content) results in a more whiskey color and the lighter the oil (usually a milder oil with lower poly-phenol content) results in shades of magenta.

[hav]

Out of curiosity I once tested what I would get dissolving activated charcoal in the same Tunisian evoo I normally use. Color came out dark green and illuminated bright green with an led flash light. My normal mixes look dark reddish-brown and illuminate bright red.

Howard

[niner]

Out of curiosity I once tested what I would get dissolving activated charcoal in the same Tunisian evoo I normally use. Color came out dark green and illuminated bright green with an led flash light. My normal mixes look dark reddish-brown and illuminate bright red.

Activated charcoal isn't soluble in olive oil as far as I know, but it's often used to decolorize synthetic organic mixtures, because the sorts of large molecules that often produce the color in a mixture will be adsorbed onto the charcoal. In this case, did the oil end up darker after being stirred for a long time with activated charcoal? Maybe the charcoal adsorbed one color of compound in the oil, but didn't adsorb the chlorophyll. That would at least explain the bright green color. I wouldn't expect to see the oil get darker, though. Did it seem like the charcoal dissolved at all? Did you filter it?

[david ellis]

My last batch, I did two things differently. (two batches, both were hand shaken.) I ground the C60 between 2 spoons this time. I emptied 50 mL of olive oil, to give more space for shaking. Last time, I poured and mixed the oil in two containers that had a much larger empty space, so there was more contact with air. This time, the color was more purple, not whisky colored like the first batch.

I should have identified my olive oil. Both times it was a bottle Kirkland Toscano olive oil.

[hav]

Activated charcoal isn't soluble in olive oil as far as I know, but it's often used to decolorize synthetic organic mixtures, because the sorts of large molecules that often produce the color in a mixture will be adsorbed onto the charcoal. In this case, did the oil end up darker after being stirred for a long time with activated charcoal? Maybe the charcoal adsorbed one color of compound in the oil, but didn't adsorb the chlorophyll. That would at least explain the bright green color. I wouldn't expect to see the oil get darker, though. Did it seem like the charcoal dissolved at all? Did you filter it?

I mixed it at the same concentration I do for c60 in a magnetic stirrer for 2 weeks and it looked like it dissolved similarly passing through the .22μm autofil filter I usually use with only a tiny bit of left over residue. I used Country Life brand from Great Pumpkin, which comes in 260 mg capsules, and I ground it up pretty well with a full contact mortar and pestle to help it along. I'd say the mix was darker than what I usually get with c60, kind of a black/green, but was more distinctly green with the light shining through it. I only did it because I was wondering what the result would look like if an unscrupulous vendor substituted a cheaper c60 look alike. I was relieved that the mix looked so different. It ended up in the compost heap. Haven't noticed any affect on my flowers yet.

Howard

Edited by hav, 27 November 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[niner]

I mixed it at the same concentration I do for c60 in a magnetic stirrer for 2 weeks and it looked like it dissolved similarly passing through the .22μm autofil filter I usually use with only a tiny bit of left over residue. I used Country Life brand from Great Pumpkin, which comes in 260 mg capsules, and I ground it up pretty well with a full contact mortar and pestle to help it along. I'd say the mix was darker than what I usually get with c60, kind of a black/green, but was more distinctly green with the light shining through it. I only did it because I was wondering what the result would look like if an unscrupulous vendor substituted a cheaper c60 look alike. I was relieved that the mix looked so different. It ended up in the compost heap. Haven't noticed any affect on my flowers yet.

Well that's interesting. In the organic lab, the contact between a reaction product and the activated charcoal is usually pretty brief, without extensive stirring. The charcoal is also not finely ground. In this case, it sounds like it reacted with the oil, kind of like c60 would. I remember seeing an electron micrograph of activated charcoal that showed a lot of regions that looked like convoluted graphite, kind of reminiscent of c60. I wonder if there are similar reactions occurring, but with the charcoal breaking up into random submicron bits. Hard to say without some sophisticated instrumentation. I hope that your flowers don't rise up in a Little Shop of Horrors scenario...

[Xerxes]

Hello everyone, a few months ago my Grandmother (age 63) started taking C60. Since then she has had really good results. She has much more energy than she did before, she literally used to be dropping by the end of the day, however, since starting C60 she no longer feels tired towards the end of the day. She also feels more calm and less stressed.

One other interesting thing is the effect she noticed with C60 and alcohol. My Grandmother rarely drinks, however, when she does, before she has finished her first glass of wine it has gone to her head. A few weeks ago she had some guests over and after finishing her first glass she realised it hadn't gone to her head; after another, not much had changed. She then drank a third glass and still, the drink never went to her head as she usually experiences with one glass. It was only the day after when she told me about this, confused as to why this happened I brought up that it must had been because of the C60. Somehow it was making her liver work more efficiently? I'm not sure.. but it's definitely having positive effects.

She introduced her brother to C60 about a month ago; he has also noticed an increase in energy. For example, he no longer struggles stay awake while driving home after work. Furthermore, prior to C60 he had pain in his toes that was making it painful to walk. Since starting the C60 the pain has diminished.

After her and her brother's results, her other siblings have also started taking it as well as a few friends.

[dachshund]

What dosage are your relatives & friends taking and with what frequency?

[Xerxes]

She initially took 1.5mg daily for a week and then changed it to 4.5mg weekly. Her bother also is doing the same however he took it daily for longer until he switched to weekly dosing.

[dachshund]

Thanks for sharing this information. I am beginning this dosage, beginning this week after 2 weeks off. I was taking 15 mgs per week for six weeks. I noted in the fifth/sixth week I began to have auras with migraines at this dosage and some muscle cramping, calf muscles. I am keenly aware of migraine triggers as I have a history of migraines. I began taking ALCAR plus ALA about 10 years ago and immediately noted a complete ceasation of aura migraines. I had been suffering from aura migraines about one to two monthly for about 5 years prior to beginning ALCAR plus ALA. I did not take supplements then I read a Bruce Ames paper on the ALCAR/R-ALA combo and began taking this a decade ago. The ceasation of aura migraines was a highly positive result and has allowed me to identify supplement/food triggers for me, as I've experimented with various supplements over the past decade.

Here are aura + migraine triggers for me: NAC, paba, b12, b6, lysine. There may be others I do not recall now. Tea is also a trigger if I drink more than one or two cups.

I began having migraines the day following dosing a tablespoon 0.8 mg/mL standard commercial products after about three or four weeks at this dosage. I have used product from three suppliers, so it seems universal. I am a heavy enjoyer of olive oil so I do not believe the olive oil is the trigger. I've taken two weeks off and will begin dosing at 1 teaspoon/week (4 - 5 mgs C60) to see how this goes. I have appreciated all the shared experiences by Longecity posters and have personally observed many of the positive effects noted in these discussions.

I saw three others reported headaches when taking C60 in the survey.