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What are the important vitamins and minerals?

vitamins

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#1 eon

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:24 AM


I ask this because I am trying to get rid of my copper containing multi vitamin and stick with single-vitamin type of supplements. The important ones that I can think of are:

Vitamin C, E, D, B vitamins, Magnesium, Calcium. It's all I could think of for now. I have these as single-vitamin since they provide higher milligrams than what you'd get in a multi vitamin. What else did I miss? Is vitamin A really needed?

I'm looking for synergy as well like calcium can't be absorbed properly without vitamin D so this is why I use both. I read this somewhere anyway.

Edited by eon, 06 November 2013 - 11:26 AM.


#2 balance

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:09 AM

If you're gonna supplement, in order of importance:

Vitamin K2 MK-4 5-15mg & MK-7 400-1000mcg
Vitamin D3 1000-2000iu
Omega 3 1000mg EPA, 500mg DHA, 100-500mg DPA
Magnesium glycinate 100-400mg
B6 as Pyridoxal-5-phosphate 25-75mg
Vitamin C as potassium ascorbate 250-1250mg

Take them all with the meal that contains the most fat for them to absorb properly. Do not supplement with vitamin A, calcium, iron, or copper. Don't take D3 without K2 and if you get vitamin C make sure it's buffered as potassium or sodium ascorbate as they are the most alkaline.

You could also consider these top notch supplements on top of that basis posted above:

Life extension pomegranate 1000mg
EuroPharma CuraMed Curcumin 750mg
Biotivia Pterostilbene 250mg
Geronova Lipoic acid Na-Rala 300mg
Jarrow PQQ 20mg
Jarrow L-Carnosine 1500mg
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#3 eon

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:20 AM

Why no to calcium? I thought it's good for bones well so is D3. Isn't there synergy between the 2? D3 is good for bones by itself so I guess calcium could be left out? So D3 and k2 is a better combo?

Magnesium aspartate is said to be better but glycinate as well since they are chelated type.

I thought vitamin d3 have to be atleast 4000 iu? I take 5000 iu since it's what I had bought at Walmart. I'd have to check what my vitamin c is made from. I take 1 g twice daily. My omega 3 is only Dha at 600 mg daily. Not sure the importance of Epa and Dpa is but I don't mind trying them.

Why no D3 without k2?

Edited by eon, 07 November 2013 - 03:57 AM.


#4 eon

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:58 AM

Vitamin K2 is very expensive. I could only find the MK-7 form but not the MK-4. What's the deal with this? Everyone seem to sell them for $12 to $20 a bottle with 60 pills of just 50 mcg to 90 mcg per pill. If my dose is 1000 mcg daily, then a bottle would last me only a week or less. Do you buy this in bulk powder form? This had to be in bulk for it to be worthy.

#5 niner

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:07 PM

I think 1000 mcg/day of MK7, or 15mg/d of MK4 is overkill. I take WAY less than that. (less than a tenth as much). Eon, 5000 iu of vitamin D may be too much for you. D is a vitamin that you should titrate to a reasonable blood level. The next time you get blood work done, ask for a 25-hydroxy-vitamin D3 level. For the time being, maybe you should take those 5K D's every other day instead of daily. D has an extremely long half life, so you can even dose weekly if you want.

The reason to take K with D is that D induces calcium storage, and can cause it to be deposited in places that it shouldn't go if K is inadequate.
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#6 timar

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:14 PM

First of all, I would quit taking the the single high-dose supplements and take a good multivitamin instead (I recommend half-dose LEF Two-per-day, which has recently been updated with mixed tocopherols, D3 and coenzyme forms of B vitamins, which makes it even more a bargain).

Why? Because single vitamins are not only much less economic that a multivitamin, but because, as you have said, they tend to "provide higher milligrams", which in my opinion is not always a good thing. For example, there is evidence that vitamin E (in the form of alpha-tocopherol) in doses above 150 IU increases all-cause mortality risk, whereas doses of 50 IU actually slightly decrease the risk. Many vitamins and trace elements have such a U-shaped dose-response curve, and with high-dose single vitamin supplements you risk end up too far on the right side of the curve, where is on the rise again.

I think, however, that there are good reasons to go for higher doses of certain B vitamins (higher than the DV-doses included in most cheap multivitamins). Some better multivitamins, like the mentioned Two-per-day, do have high doses of B vitamins.

Another reason to go for a good multivitamin is that it provides a comprehensive "safety net" of micronutrients you wouldn't take individually, but you may miss in your diet nonetheless, for example selenium, chromium, zinc and folate. The only thing often missing is vitamin K (because of possible Warfarin interactions).

Besides the multivitamin I would only recommend some additional vitamin D (enough to get your blood level up to 40-60ng/ml), some K2 if it is missing (100mcg of MK-7 may be enough), magnesium (200mg) and fish oil, depending on how frequently you eat fish.

This is for generally healthy people though. There are conditions legitimating the use of higher doses of certain vitamins.

Edited by timar, 07 November 2013 - 02:27 PM.

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#7 Darryl

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 04:02 PM

No multivitamins exclude all the micronutrients I'm avoiding supplementing.

Fenech, Michael, et al. "Low intake of calcium, folate, nicotinic acid, vitamin E, retinol, β-carotene and high intake of pantothenic acid, biotin and riboflavin are significantly associated with increased genome instability—results from a dietary intake and micronucleus index survey in South Australia."Carcinogenesis 26.5 (2005): 991-999.
Wien, Tale Norbye, et al. "Cancer risk with folic acid supplements: a systematic review and meta-analysis." BMJ open 2.1 (2012).
Gomez-Cabrera, Mari-Carmen, et al. "Oral administration of vitamin C decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and hampers training-induced adaptations in endurance performance." The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 87.1 (2008): 142-149.
Hernández, Andrés, Arthur Cheng, and Håkan Westerblad. "Antioxidants and skeletal muscle performance:“common knowledge” vs. experimental evidence."Frontiers in physiology 3 (2012).
Brewer, George J. "Risks of copper and iron toxicity during aging in humans."Chemical research in toxicology 23.2 (2009): 319-326.
Kell, Douglas B. "Towards a unifying, systems biology understanding of large-scale cellular death and destruction caused by poorly liganded iron: Parkinson’s, Huntington’s, Alzheimer’s, prions, bactericides, chemical toxicology and others as examples." Archives of toxicology 84.11 (2010): 825-889.

In general, I'm avoiding supplementing metals which catalyse ROS generation, and vitamins that act primarily as unregulated direct antioxidants. The endogenous antioxidant system is more potent and better regulated (to permit physiologically adequate levels of signalling ROS, while quenching deletorious spikes), and I do eat foods and take some non-vitamin supplements that appear to act primarily as indirect antioxidants, upregulating glutathione availability, SOD, catalase etc. I'll fully admit its a n=1 experiment, I'll let you know how it went in 60 years.

I've run a few sample daily diets through cronometer, so know I'm generally adequate on most micronutrients, but low on D, B12 (I'm vegan) and on low-nut intake days, magnesium . That's not unusual, most Americans don't achieve the estimated average requirements from diet with D (93%), E (91%), and Mg (55%). Ca (49%), A (45%), C (37%), and K (31%) are also poor in many diets. The American EAR for calcium is inflated due to dairy lobby influence (525 mg normalizes hip-fracture rates), and supplemental calcium appears to lower cancer (esp colon) while increasing CVD risk, with a net mild benefit.

Fulgoni, Victor L., et al. "Foods, fortificants, and supplements: where do Americans get their nutrients?." The Journal of nutrition 141.10 (2011): 1847-1854.

Multivitamins and most commonly consumed supplements don't have a great record on overall mortality. The notable exceptions appear to be D, magnesium, glucosamine-chondroitin (!), and calcium (despite mixed disease outcomes*). Long chain omega-3s (fish oil, algal DHA) likely helps too (particularly with cardiovascular risk), but studies on supplementation have been too inconsistent for statistical significance. *the American EAR for calcium is inflated due to dairy lobby influence (525 mg normalizes hip-fracture rates), and supplemental calcium appears to lower cancer (esp colon) while increasing CVD risk.

Macpherson, Helen, Andrew Pipingas, and Matthew P. Pase. "Multivitamin-multimineral supplementation and mortality: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials." The American journal of clinical nutrition 97.2 (2013): 437-444.
Zittermann, Armin, et al. "Vitamin D deficiency and mortality risk in the general population: a meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies." The American journal of clinical nutrition 95.1 (2012): 91-100.
Rosanoff, Andrea, Connie M. Weaver, and Robert K. Rude. "Suboptimal magnesium status in the United States: are the health consequences underestimated?." Nutrition reviews 70.3 (2012): 153-164.
Pocobelli, Gaia, et al. "Total mortality risk in relation to use of less-common dietary supplements." The American journal of clinical nutrition 91.6 (2010): 1791-1800.
Hooper, Lee, et al. "Risks and benefits of omega 3 fats for mortality, cardiovascular disease, and cancer: systematic review." BMJ: British Medical Journal 332.7544 (2006): 752.
Appleby, P., et al. "Comparative fracture risk in vegetarians and nonvegetarians in EPIC-Oxford." European journal of clinical nutrition 61.12 (2007): 1400-1406.
Mursu, Jaakko, et al. "Dietary supplements and mortality rate in older women: the Iowa Women's Health Study." Archives of Internal Medicine 171.18 (2011): 1625.
Bolland, Mark J., et al. "Calcium supplements with or without vitamin D and risk of cardiovascular events: reanalysis of the Women’s Health Initiative limited access dataset and meta-analysis." BMJ: British Medical Journal 342 (2011).

Timar's suggestions for multivitamin, D, K2, Mg, and fish oil are sound (assuming its a low dose multivitamin, they don't seem to do much harm). There's not a lot of research on K2, but the initial studies on vascular calcification and cancer mortality are intriguing, and I've seen no evidence of harm (at least for those not taking anti-thrombotic medication). piet3r's suggestions are similar though that K recommendation is into the experimental therapeutic range for patients with existing vascular calcification. Vegans like myself must supplement B12 - there are no reliable plant sources and deficiency myelopathies and malignant catatonias can ruin a life.

Edited by Darryl, 07 November 2013 - 04:13 PM.

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#8 timar

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:05 PM

No multivitamins exclude all the micronutrients I'm avoiding supplementing.


Well it all depends on the dose, doesn't it? I couldn't think of a single micronutrient I wouldn't take at all (after all, they are nutrients), but there are many I wouldn't take more than a RDAish dose of. The only exeption would be iron and copper, for which there is strong evidence of adverse effects even at normal dietary levels, so I try to generally limit my intake of them.

Of course, if one wants to bring up a case against supplementation, one can dig into PubMed and find a lot of studies supporting his position. Or the the exact opposite position (like that purported in the LEF Magazine articles ;)).

In the end, we either have to judge the evidence for every single micronutrient by ourselves, or rely on a trusted authority. As probably no one has the capacity to do this really comprehensively, I follow a mixed approach: I try to evaluate as many studies as I can by myself, but further rely on the reviews of such institutions as the Linus Pauling Insitute and the Harvard Medical School and to a lesser extend to the information given by semi-commercial authorities like Andrew Weil and the LEF, or by respected members of communities such as this.

In my opinion, some of the studies you have referenced give reason for real concern, others are highly speculative or stand against a larger contradictory body of evidence. The folic acid meta-analysis, for example, has ben superseded by larger and more recent analysis' which haven't shown an increased risk. Yet there lingers a shadow of concern on folic acid, so I would try to avoid it and take low-dose folate instead.

In general, I'm avoiding supplementing metals which catalyse ROS generation, and vitamins that act primarily as unregulated direct antioxidants. The endogenous antioxidant system is more potent and better regulated (to permit physiologically adequate levels of signalling ROS, while quenching deletorious spikes), and I do eat foods and take some non-vitamin supplements that appear to act primarily as indirect antioxidants, upregulating glutathione availability, SOD, catalase etc. I'll fully admit its a n=1 experiment, I'll let you know how it went in 60 years.


I'm the first to admit that there is some reason to that approach. However, I think that we are far away from fully understanding the health effects of hormesis and its optimum conditions in terms of ROS generation, especially considering very different individual health backgrounds and amounts of oxidative stress. The recent antioxidant meta-analysis may be a first and rather coarse step towars that understanding. We have to be careful, though, not to throw out the baby with the antioxidant bathwater.

Again, the 2005 meta-analysis of vitamin E, which I referenced, has shown a U-shaped curve with higher mortality at doses > 150 and slightly lower mortality at doses < 150. Considering the numbers you have posted - that 91% of all Americans don't achieve the EAR of vitamin E, this result becomes quite comprehensible. Therefore I think taking low-dose supplemental vitamin E, like most multivitamins provide, would provide benefit to most poeple, whereas high dose vitamin E may very well be dentrimental to health.

Multivitamins and most commonly consumed supplements don't have a great record on overall mortality. The notable exceptions appear to be D, magnesium, glucosamine-chondroitin (!), and calcium (despite mixed disease outcomes*). Long chain omega-3s (fish oil, algal DHA) likely helps too (particularly with cardiovascular risk), but studies on supplementation have been too inconsistent for statistical significance. *the American EAR for calcium is inflated due to dairy lobby influence (525 mg normalizes hip-fracture rates), and supplemental calcium appears to lower cancer (esp colon) while increasing CVD risk.


It's funny that of all things you exclude calcium. Have a look at these four recent studies (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23866097, http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22626900, http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23381719, http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23403980) and you may reconsider your take on calcium.

If you think that the available literature on long chain omega-3s is inconsistent (which it is), than I wonder what you would call the literature on multivitamins. The data on omega-3s is neat and consistent compared with the completely messed-up way most epidemiological studies take record of multivitamins. Now what to do, when we have a host of widely inconsistent, low quality studies? We should watch out for at least a single well done, methodologically sound study with sufficient statistical power to draw meaningfull conclusions from that study alone. In this case, we do now have such a study. It is the multivitamin RCT arm of the Physicians' Health Study II. Here we have a large (n=14,641) and at the same time very homogenous population that (by its profession) is exceptionally health conscious and well nourished, physically active and largely abstinent from smoking and exessive alcohol use. Moreover, we have a unequalled medium follow-up of 11.2 years, in which the participants took the multivitamin formula vs placebo. The results: a modest decrease in risk of cancer (HR: 0.92, P=0.04) and a non-significant reduction in all-cause mortality risk (HR: 0.94, P=0.13) - despite that the Centrum Silver formula used has been far from optimal, as it contained 4mg iron and 2mg copper.

If you add to that study the results of a very well done epidemiological study, taking into account the "sick-user bias" which severely distorted previous epidemiological studies on supplements, and this finding of increased telomere length in woman who took multivitamin supplements, I think we can make a pretty strong case for a comprehensive low to moderate dose multivitamin supplement.

Edited by timar, 07 November 2013 - 07:08 PM.

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#9 eon

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:31 AM

I seem to tolerate 5000 IU of Vitamin D3 because for one I live in the northeast and I work during the night and sleep during the day, which means I am mostly missing out on the sunshine vitamin (which D3 is). My multi vitamin has another 1000 IU of D3, so I'm really taking in 6000 IUs daily plus whatever that comes with whatever I eat that has vitamin D (like milk, etc.).

In the back of my D3's bottle has a mention that D3 helps absorb calcium, so how can it store it like you said? That's why milk has vitamin D added to it so it can absorb the calcium that's in the milk. I don't take any calcium supplement. I just read up on it and not sure I like its possible side effects at high dosage. I might just stick with D3 and K2. I only found the MK-7 version, the MK-4 seem "rare". The vitamin K in my multi vitamin is not K2, it's simply phytonadione (which is K1), so I'm definitely missing out on the K2 (menaquinone). Avoid K3, no one really sells this!

What do you think about potassium? I read it's good to combine it with magnesium. My multi only has 50 mg of it which is 1% daily value, pretty low if you ask me.

I think 1000 mcg/day of MK7, or 15mg/d of MK4 is overkill. I take WAY less than that. (less than a tenth as much). Eon, 5000 iu of vitamin D may be too much for you. D is a vitamin that you should titrate to a reasonable blood level. The next time you get blood work done, ask for a 25-hydroxy-vitamin D3 level. For the time being, maybe you should take those 5K D's every other day instead of daily. D has an extremely long half life, so you can even dose weekly if you want.

The reason to take K with D is that D induces calcium storage, and can cause it to be deposited in places that it shouldn't go if K is inadequate.


Edited by eon, 08 November 2013 - 08:09 AM.


#10 eon

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:52 AM

alpha tocopherol is the most commonly used ingredient in Vitamin E even the Walmart brand uses that. Multi vitamin generally uses cheap ingredients (remember these companies are out there to make their money!). The reason why I preferred single vitamins is because you can find and choose what type of ingredient it has. The vitamin E I use has all 4 tocopherol: alpha, beta, gamma, delta, from Dr. Vita. I've used the MSM brand of vitamin E as well as Wonderlabs, which both have the more expensive and rare form of Vitamin E, tocotrienol. I wish I had more money for that. LOL. I've used the product called Toco8 as well, which has all 4 of the tocopherol and all 4 of the tocotrienol, hence the product is called Toco8 (it has all 8 types of Vitamin E).

Vitamin E is supposed to help the body make red blood cells. Some book I read recommended to start at low dosage and take up to 1000 mg daily. I wouldn't go that high as I get other Vitamin E from what I eat and drink (mainly almond milk).

LEF has some great products but all designer prices. Multi vitamins are for convenience. I don't mind it, but if I can get the most important vitamins as singles, I prefer it. It's not that expensive. A bowl of cereal have the multi vitamin you need, IMO. Not too much, just enough.

 

First of all, I would quit taking the the single high-dose supplements and take a good multivitamin instead ... Why? Because single vitamins are not only much less economic that a multivitamin, but because, as you have said, they tend to "provide higher milligrams", which in my opinion is not always a good thing. For example, there is evidence that vitamin E (in the form of alpha-tocopherol) in doses above 150 IU increases all-cause mortality risk, whereas doses of 50 IU actually slightly decrease the risk. Many vitamins and trace elements have such a U-shaped dose-response curve, and with high-dose single vitamin supplements you risk end up too far on the right side of the curve, where is on the rise again.


Edited by Michael, 26 July 2014 - 03:26 AM.


#11 eon

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 08:16 AM

well list some non vitamin supplements. I do take some mushroom supplements: reishi, cordyceps, lion's mane, etc. This would be considered non-vitamin, right? and Nootropics?

Regarding the calcium quote, are you saying is it because dairy milk is shoved up everyone's ass? I hate dairy. All convenient stores seem to only sell cow's milk. I drink nut milk (almond). Not into soy as much. Wished hemp milk was widely available or any plant milk.

I never paid much attention to glucosamine-chondroitin, but saw it as for "joint health".

K2 comes from natto.

"Natto is typically fermented from soybeans or chickpeas by using a healthy bacteria called bacillus subtilus that may also serve as a probiotic".

If you must take a B12, take the sublingual form. I do take them.
 

No multivitamins exclude all the micronutrients I'm avoiding supplementing....  I do eat foods and take some non-vitamin supplements that appear to act primarily as indirect antioxidants, upregulating glutathione availability, SOD, catalase etc. I'll fully admit its a n=1 experiment, I'll let you know how it went in 60 years.

I've run a few sample daily diets through cronometer, so know I'm generally adequate on most micronutrients, but low on D, B12 (I'm vegan) and on low-nut intake days, magnesium . That's not unusual ...

Multivitamins and most commonly consumed supplements don't have a great record on overall mortality. The notable exceptions appear to be D, magnesium, glucosamine-chondroitin (!), and calcium (despite mixed disease outcomes*). ... *the American EAR for calcium is inflated due to dairy lobby influence (525 mg normalizes hip-fracture rates), and supplemental calcium appears to lower cancer (esp colon) while increasing CVD risk....

Timar's suggestions for multivitamin, D, K2, Mg, and fish oil are sound (assuming its a low dose multivitamin, they don't seem to do much harm). There's not a lot of research on K2, but the initial studies on vascular calcification and cancer mortality are intriguing, and I've seen no evidence of harm (at least for those not taking anti-thrombotic medication). piet3r's suggestions are similar though that K recommendation is into the experimental therapeutic range for patients with existing vascular calcification. Vegans like myself must supplement B12 - there are no reliable plant sources and deficiency myelopathies and malignant catatonias can ruin a life.


Edited by Michael, 26 July 2014 - 03:30 AM.


#12 timar

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:22 PM

@eon: I have the impression that you haven't really understood what I said in my above posts. It wasn't primarily about the forms of the vitamins but about the amount. Please take the time to read the answers I wrote to you and Darryl again.

Vitamin E is supposed to help the body make red blood cells. Some book I read recommended to start at low dosage and take up to 1000 mg daily. I wouldn't go that high as I get other Vitamin E from what I eat and drink (mainly almond milk).


You should be critical of books or websites advocating large doses of isolated vitamins. Often these sources either rely on science which is long outdated, or they don't rely on science at all, but rather on some kind of magical thinking - or a mixture of both.

You are right in that mixed tocopherols are the superior form of Vitamin E. I may well be that the negative results with large doses of vitamin E supplementation were due to of the use of isolated alpha-tocopherol. Another reason may be that large dose of antioxidant vitamins interfere the the process called hormesis, as I have discussed with Darryl. So far we just don't know which explanation is right, and as long as we don't have the answer in, I would not no take large doses of either form of vitamin E.

You are right in that isolated vitamins sometimes provide superior forms, although, in my experience, more often they do not. What they usually do provide, however, are much higher doses of the vitamins they contain. Those doses are often gross overdoses. Therefore, and for the reason of convenience and economy, I generally advice to take a good multivitamin and ditch high-dose isolated vitamin supplements (with the said exeptions of vitamin D, K2 and magnesium).

LEF has some great products but all designer prices. Multi vitamins are for convenience. I don't mind it, but if I can get the most important vitamins as singles, I prefer it. It's not that expensive. A bowl of cereal have the multi vitamin you need, IMO. Not too much, just enough.


First, the Two-per-Day are not expensive, epecially not if you only take one tablet a day, as I recommend. One tablet is little more than 10 cents, which is a staggering $3-$4 per month. Second, see the point I made above. Third, no, a bowl of cereal doesn't have all the "multi vitamin you need". Moreover, such heavily fortified cereal is generally unhealthy junk-food. It has a high glycemic load, is often loaded with sugar, low in fiber, and contains unfavorable micronutrients (large amounts of folic acid and iron).

As a side note, please do not quote the whole posts you respond to, but only single paragraphs. Otherwise the whole topic soon looks messed up.

PS. Regarding the case for multivitamins I made above: I forgot to add this recent study on multivitamins and breast cancer risk. Also, see the work of Bruce Ames for sound theoretical explanations why multivitamins may protect against cancer and other age-related diseaes and a nutrigenetic rationale for the intake of supra-RDA B vitamins.

Edited by timar, 08 November 2013 - 03:50 PM.

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#13 eon

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:45 AM

Timar, I had just dumped my half bottle empty multi vitamin from Alive! It has copper and iron. I see some multis for sale with no iron or copper. I may reconsider taking a multi again someday but for now I think I like my single vitamin at their max dosages. The multi I am considering would be just a B vitamin complex. Right now I am taking 5 types of single B vitamins. Sometimes I wish I had this all in one. My bottles are almost empty so time for me to shop around for a B vitamin complex.

Regarding cereals; what are some better alternative to it? I've always eaten cereals for breakfast. Can't think of anything else to eat that are as convenient as cereals.

Edited by eon, 09 November 2013 - 08:47 AM.


#14 pamojja

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 07:30 PM

Regarding cereals; what are some better alternative to it? I've always eaten cereals for breakfast. Can't think of anything else to eat that are as convenient as cereals.


Grainless cereals: Freshly shredded nuts (like Macadamia, Haselnut,..) and Flax seeds, Coconut flakes/oil/milk, organically grown berries (Blueberries), Cocoa powder, pure Stevia, ...

Though I need a bit more protein in the morning, like a spoon full Gelatin, and 2 additional boiled eggs are convenient enough too. Also gives an opportunity for added salt. Which could become deficient on low carb diets.

#15 timar

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 10:11 PM

Regarding cereals; what are some better alternative to it? I've always eaten cereals for breakfast. Can't think of anything else to eat that are as convenient as cereals.


There a lot of alternatives to processed cereals. Cereals are fine IMO, but they should be mostly unprocessed. This is what I have for breakfast: a bowl with 1/4 l of homemade yogurt (made from organic milk with probiotic cultures and enriched with inulin), one cup of mixed muesli (rolled oats and barley, dried fruits, plain cornflakes), a half an apple (diced), a half a cup of mixed berries from the freezer, a tablespoon each of ground flaxseed and pumpkin seeds, a handful of nuts (almonds, pecans, walnuts, brazil nuts...) and on the top of it a teaspoon of grapeseed flour.

From that breakfast bowl alone, I get about half of my daily allowance of fiber, vitamin E, magnesium, selenium and several other trace elements. And I have calculated that it provides about 400mg of OPC (oligomeric proantocyanidines, which are potent natural antioxidants).

Edited by timar, 09 November 2013 - 10:14 PM.

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#16 niner

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 10:48 PM

I seem to tolerate 5000 IU of Vitamin D3 because for one I live in the northeast and I work during the night and sleep during the day, which means I am mostly missing out on the sunshine vitamin (which D3 is). My multi vitamin has another 1000 IU of D3, so I'm really taking in 6000 IUs daily plus whatever that comes with whatever I eat that has vitamin D (like milk, etc.).

In the back of my D3's bottle has a mention that D3 helps absorb calcium, so how can it store it like you said? That's why milk has vitamin D added to it so it can absorb the calcium that's in the milk. I don't take any calcium supplement. I just read up on it and not sure I like its possible side effects at high dosage.


Well, you tolerate it, but what if your long term health would be better if you took half as much? Or twice as much? The only way to know is to get a blood level. If you don't test, I'd knock the daily D dosage down to 2500 iu max.

The people who write the text on the back of a vitamin bottle may or may not be scientifically literate. They might be marketers. When you take a substance, it might either pass right through your GI tract, which is to say it is not absorbed, or it might get absorbed. Most vitamins are "absorbed", meaning they get into your system. The question is, what happens next? Do they go right back out in your urine? Are they metabolized in ways that make them more water soluble, which makes them more likely to be washed out in the urine? Those are both things that happen frequently with natural products, and they are not particularly useful. Another thing that can happen to a compound is that it sticks around for a while and does something useful. Another thing that can happen is that the body has ways to store the compound, and you can build up those stores. Sometimes these last two options are essentially the same thing. With calcium, as well as some other substances, there is another option, which is that it may do something undesirable. Calcium can be deposited in diseased arteries or in soft tissues where it doesn't belong. It can also be deposited in bones, where it does belong. Having an adequate amount of vitamin K will help the calcium to go where it's needed and not where it's unwelcome.

Regarding what to eat for breakfast, several people here make an oatmeal dish with coconut oil and blueberries. I include some splenda when I make it. I make one serving of unsweetened quick oats (not instant, although some may consider "quick" to be excessively processed.) If I get it hot enough, for which I use a microwave, I can add the splenda and about one tsp coconut oil, stir, then add a half cup of frozen blueberries. The blueberries thaw and the whole thing is ready to eat immediately. One reason that I like this breakfast is because I can make it with a single bowl in under 5 minutes, which suits my morning routine.

#17 mpe

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 10:54 PM

Having just read the latest "Antiaging Firewalls" posting on GSH, I'm beginning to think a lipsomal GSH preperation may be a very worthwhile inclusion in this list.

Mike

#18 timar

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 11:03 PM

Having just read the latest "Antiaging Firewalls" posting on GSH, I'm beginning to think a lipsomal GSH preperation may be a very worthwhile inclusion in this list.


You really don't need that IMO. There are proven ways to efficiently boost your GSH levels: a) Make sure you get enough selenium und zinc - the enzymes involved in synthesis and recycling of GSH depend on them, b) take some NAC, to supply the rate-liming substrate and c) make sure to get plenty of polyphenols, which activate Nrf2/ARE or take lipoc acid, which does the same.

#19 mpe

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 11:28 PM

You really don't need that IMO. There are proven ways to efficiently boost your GSH levels: a) Make sure you get enough selenium und zinc - the enzymes involved in synthesis and recycling of GSH depend on them, b) take some NAC, to supply the rate-liming substrate and c) make sure to get plenty of polyphenols, which activate Nrf2/ARE or take lipoc acid, which does the same.


Thanks for your comment, however I am more concerned that the age related decrease is not triggered by dietary deficiencies but by a genetic change and may need a more direct approach to redress its decline.

Mike

#20 timar

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 08:26 AM

Thanks for your comment, however I am more concerned that the age related decrease is not triggered by dietary deficiencies but by a genetic change and may need a more direct approach to redress its decline.


The methods b) and c) work independently of any deficiencies. Even if you have a diet rich in sulfur-containing amino acids, NAC still potently raises gluthatione at it is strongly rate-limiting. It does so much more efficiently than any known form of GSH, and it may well turn out that it is more efficient than liposomic GSH too, although I don't know of any studies of such a preparation.

If you are past your 50s, you should consider adding NAC, CoQ10, acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid to the list.

I think the activation of Nrf2/ARE is a very elegant way to raise your body's own antioxidant enzymes in a hormetic fashion. It is one of the major biochemical pathways involved in the longevity enhancing effects of a "MediterrAsian diet" rich in phytochemicals (the other ones are Akt1/mTOR and NFκB inhibition and possibly SIRT1 and PXR activation) and has much more profound effects than just raising your GSH levels.

If we have lerned one thing from all the studies done so far, than it is that there is no magic bullet in terms of antioxidants. They are team players, and they interplay in a very complex and delicate fashion (with one another and with the opposing team) we have only begun to understand. By relying on Nrf2/ARE we take advantage of our body's own evolutionary wisdom instead of our insufficient understanding of its redox systems.

Edited by timar, 10 November 2013 - 09:22 AM.

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#21 eon

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:24 AM

My sweetener of choice is glucose (aka dextrose). What's the deal with the stevia praises?

I thought anything that is bought from the store and packed is "processed"? Where do I find unprocessed cereals? Would a plain cornflake cereal from Kellogg's be considered "unprocessed"?

I didn't like the taste of flax seeds sprinkled on my cereal. Would chia seeds be better? I haven't tried it yet. Coconut oil is something I am considering of buying.

Timar, isn't selenium toxic at a certain dosage? COQ10 can be toxic as well, why not use its synthetic version Idebenone which functions as a nootropic as well?

#22 timar

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:55 AM

I thought anything that is bought from the store and packed is "processed"? Where do I find unprocessed cereals? Would a plain cornflake cereal from Kellogg's be considered "unprocessed"?


Well, if you turn good advice into a dogma, it almost inevitably becomes bad advice. Processing often means that grains are stripped of their fiber, or at least that they are prepared in a way that raises their digestibility and thus their glycemic index. High glycemic index carbohydrates are not generally to be avoided, but they should be consumed in very limited quantities. Rolled whole grains have all of their fiber, and their cellular structure remains largely intact, so they are digested slower, don't let your blood glucose spike and keep your satiated for longer. If you add some cornflakes to them that's fine, because some fast-acting carbohydrates will help you to get mentally awake in the morning (besides, cornflakes are a good source of carotenoids like zeaxanthin). If you have a whole bowl of them, however, it will be too much, giving your blood glucose an unhealthy spike and leaving your hungry shortly afterwards. Besised, you will get unhealthy amounts of sodium (and iron, if they are fortified).

I didn't like the taste of flax seeds sprinkled on my cereal. Would chia seeds be better? I haven't tried it yet. Coconut oil is something I am considering of buying.


Yes, chia seeds will be fine too, but they have to be crushed or ground in order to be digestible. I'm not very fond of coconut oil. Although it is probably a healthy addition to one's diet if used in moderation, I think it is overhyped.

Timar, isn't selenium toxic at a certain dosage? COQ10 can be toxic as well, why not use its synthetic version Idebenone which functions as a nootropic as well?


Pretty much everything will be toxic at a certain dosage. Paracelsus famously said: "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous.", which is commonly broken down to: "The dose makes the poison".

I think I provided many examples of that insight in this topic so far. Not only vitamins and minerals can be deleterious if overdosed but also high-glycemic index carbohydrates - or even coconut oil, as it contains a lot of saturated fatty acids, which shoud be limited in the diet. "Only the dose permits something to be not poisonous". When it comes to selenium and CoQ10, that dose would be 100-200 mcg or mg, respectively. A multivitamin and one or two brazil nuts a day will provide you with all the selenium you need, while leaving enough room before toxicity sets in.

Edited by timar, 10 November 2013 - 10:08 AM.


#23 eon

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:01 AM

ok once my honey combs, coco roos, and raisin bran cereals are finished I'll shop around for new cereals. anyone know some good ones other than cornflakes?
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#24 timar

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:19 AM

ok once my honey combs, coco roos, and raisin bran cereals are finished I'll shop around for new cereals. anyone know some good ones other than cornflakes?


I would look for some premixed muesli, based on rolled whole grains. It may have dried fruits, nuts, seeds, chocolate chips, cornflakes or puffed rice added. It shouldn't have added sugar (other than that from the fruits or chocolate).

Edited by timar, 10 November 2013 - 11:21 AM.


#25 Darryl

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 01:30 PM

With reference to timar's comments.

An incomplete list of known Nrf2/antioxidant response element inducers. Nrf2 activation also inhibits proinflammatory Nf-KB, so many known Nf-KB inhibitors are perhaps acting through Nrf2.

I've pinned Figure 4 from Hallmarks of Aging (required reading) to my wall, which definitely clarifies the nutrient sensing pathways. AMPK activation, Sirt1 activation, and mTOR inhibition are all connected, and all result in autophagy induction, which seems a good candidate mechanism for their longevity effects. Considered as one pathway/mechanism, it may supplant Nrf2-ARE as my favorite biological target. Caloric restriction, fasting, rapamycin, metformin, numerous other prescription drugs, vitamin D, aspirin, berberine, nordihydroguiaretic acid, parthenolide, c60 fullerenes, dietary spermidine, many polyphenols (most potently resveratrol & piceatannol) all upregulate autophagy in vitro. It seems every lifespan increasing intervention in mammalian models does.

Edited by Darryl, 10 November 2013 - 01:54 PM.

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#26 pamojja

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 01:58 PM

ok once my honey combs, coco roos, and raisin bran cereals are finished I'll shop around for new cereals. anyone know some good ones other than cornflakes?


I would look for some premixed muesli, based on rolled whole grains. It may have dried fruits, nuts, seeds, chocolate chips, cornflakes or puffed rice added. It shouldn't have added sugar (other than that from the fruits or chocolate).


First read the label carefully, instead of sugar most often cheaper, sweater and worse High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) is used in almost all industrial food.

And if the cereal isn't grain free - industrial or not - get a cheap glucose monitor! Test fasting and, more important, 1 hour postprandial glucose spikes. We are all different, but if used many of the suggestions here for my morning muesli, my postprandials would be too devastating high in the long run.

#27 timar

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 04:38 PM

Yes Darryl, you have really done your homework. ;) These autophagy-inducing pathways are highly interconnected and have several feeback loops build in. In my opinion, it is this interconnectedness with some downstream culmination at the level of mTOR (but also at branching targets like FOXO3) which explains the significant effects of a diet rich in phytochemicals. Most of them are rather weak inhibitors even at high dietary intake levels, but they provide inhibitory activity at many different points in that signalling network, so that their individual activity synergistically accumulates at the level of mTOR, while at the same time our evolutionary adaption to these phytochemicals (manifested in all those regulatory feedback loops) tend to favorably modulate their collective activity in a way that minimizes adverse effects.

A good analogy would be a drainage system in geology. A vast network of streams, rivers and lakes. Of course you can build a huge embankment dam downstream, where the river has grown large (that would be rifampicin). The better alternative though, if the topography permits, would be to build many small dams further upstream in the system which together provide the same rentention capacity. This way you have redundancy (which increases safety and maintainability) and minimize impact on the environment (less adverse effects).

And if the cereal isn't grain free - industrial or not - get a cheap glucose monitor! Test fasting and, more important, 1 hour postprandial glucose spikes. We are all different, but if used many of the suggestions here for my morning muesli, my postprandials would be too devastating high in the long run.


"Grain-free cereal" sounds like the exact kind of culinary oxymoron Michael Pollan makes fun of ("low-carb bread" beeing his object of ridicule). Well, I think it is highly unlikely that rolled grains, combined with fruits and nuts will lift one's blood glucose to an undesirable extend, but of course we are all different. It is certainly a good idea to get a cheap glucose monitor and keep track of your fasted and after meal blood sugar once a while. I have done so several times after eating my muesli and hardly ever saw a significant increase (about +0.1-0.3 mmol/l 1h postprandial).

Edited by timar, 10 November 2013 - 05:02 PM.

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#28 eon

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:55 AM

I hope the chocolates used have no sugar just pure cocoa. Never heard of such product as Muesli. Is this only in Germany?

ok once my honey combs, coco roos, and raisin bran cereals are finished I'll shop around for new cereals. anyone know some good ones other than cornflakes?


I would look for some premixed muesli, based on rolled whole grains. It may have dried fruits, nuts, seeds, chocolate chips, cornflakes or puffed rice added. It shouldn't have added sugar (other than that from the fruits or chocolate).


what's the name of the supplement again? Is it a combo of the compounds you mentioned? I got a little lost here.

Someone here mentioned pomegranate supplements. I like the fruit but it's like $4 a piece! I should plant my own at that price right? I'm looking into it.

With reference to timar's comments.

An incomplete list of known Nrf2/antioxidant response element inducers. Nrf2 activation also inhibits proinflammatory Nf-KB, so many known Nf-KB inhibitors are perhaps acting through Nrf2.

I've pinned Figure 4 from Hallmarks of Aging (required reading) to my wall, which definitely clarifies the nutrient sensing pathways. AMPK activation, Sirt1 activation, and mTOR inhibition are all connected, and all result in autophagy induction, which seems a good candidate mechanism for their longevity effects. Considered as one pathway/mechanism, it may supplant Nrf2-ARE as my favorite biological target. Caloric restriction, fasting, rapamycin, metformin, numerous other prescription drugs, vitamin D, aspirin, berberine, nordihydroguiaretic acid, parthenolide, c60 fullerenes, dietary spermidine, many polyphenols (most potently resveratrol & piceatannol) all upregulate autophagy in vitro. It seems every lifespan increasing intervention in mammalian models does.



#29 eon

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:20 AM

is using glucose as my sweetener bad? I thought this was the better sugar compared to table sugar or HFCS?

ok once my honey combs, coco roos, and raisin bran cereals are finished I'll shop around for new cereals. anyone know some good ones other than cornflakes?


I would look for some premixed muesli, based on rolled whole grains. It may have dried fruits, nuts, seeds, chocolate chips, cornflakes or puffed rice added. It shouldn't have added sugar (other than that from the fruits or chocolate).


First read the label carefully, instead of sugar most often cheaper, sweater and worse High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) is used in almost all industrial food.

And if the cereal isn't grain free - industrial or not - get a cheap glucose monitor! Test fasting and, more important, 1 hour postprandial glucose spikes. We are all different, but if used many of the suggestions here for my morning muesli, my postprandials would be too devastating high in the long run.



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#30 eon

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:34 AM

Since when did grain become bad food? I thought it's healthy? Doesn't the food pyramid guide recommended grains?





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