266 replies to this topic

[timar]

Why on earth would anyone want to supplement citric acid (except that you get from citrate salts)?

How about a glass of diluted lime juice instead? Plenty of citric acid, but also vitamin C, flavonoids, polyamines and a whole lot of natural goodness.

Really, get yorself some fruits and use the citric acid as a descaler for your water kettle...

[blood]

Re: citric acid

1) http://www.freysmile...ts-acid-erosion

2) http://www.freysmile...-for-your-teeth

Citric acid can bind calcium and leach it out of your teeth so it has extremely erosive effects on your teeth...

[blood]

Re: citric acid

1) http://www.freysmile...ts-acid-erosion

2) http://www.freysmile...-for-your-teeth

Citric acid can bind calcium and leach it out of your teeth so it has extremely erosive effects on your teeth...

Eon, you could do terrible damage to your teeth by bathing then in citric acid on a regular basis. If you are really going to "supplement" with citric acid, then I do hope you will put the citric acid in gelatine capsules (and not e.g., take it neat from spoon or dissolve in liquid).

(You seem to have an attraction to potentially harmful supplements...)

[eon]

blood, the way I take these bulk powders is I place them on my tongue and swallow. It never touches the teeth, and if does, it's small amounts, then I sip water to cleanse my mouth of any powders, then swallow. dose makes the poison right? I've only used 10mg of it. Sodas have citric acid. I don't drink sodas. citric and or malic acid give tartness to something too sweet like sodas, candies, even juices.

Is this why sometimes my teeth feels "weird" after eating green mangoes or any citrus type fruits that aren't too sweet but more tangy or tart like grapefruit or oranges that haven't ripened fully? Is it those fruits' citric acid screwing with my teeth?

[eon]

so I decided to step up my magnesium aspartate dose to 300mg, from 200mg. 200mg is only 50% daily value. I didn't "feel" anything with such low dose. I may have to jump to 100% daily value, which is 400mg daily. even that probably won't get all absorbed in the body, right? I take 200mg in the morning and 100mg at night now.

How bioavailable are the magnesium you get from foods? From what I read the cooked foods lose some of their vitamins and minerals. Let's say a bowl of cereal contains 5% magnesium, how much magnesium am I getting in exactly? I would think not a whole lot since cereals are "cooked" in the factories. Plus, the magnesium "added" to these foods are probably not high quality magnesiums like aspartate or glycinate. So do these companies label the vitamins they've "added" to their foods, its amount, BEFORE it was cooked or processed and not how much it "still has" AFTER its been cooked/process?

[timar]

How bioavailable are the magnesium you get from foods? From what I read the cooked foods lose some of their vitamins and minerals. Let's say a bowl of cereal contains 5% magnesium, how much magnesium am I getting in exactly? I would think not a whole lot since cereals are "cooked" in the factories. Plus, the magnesium "added" to these foods are probably not high quality magnesiums like aspartate or glycinate. So do these companies label the vitamins they've "added" to their foods, its amount, BEFORE it was cooked or processed and not how much it "still has" AFTER its been cooked/process?

what's the maximum amount of magnesium should I take? I read that for men over 30 the RDA is 420mg daily. I find it fascinating that even though magnesium is easier to obtain from regular foods we eat daily, then how come 75% of Americans are still magnesium deficient? Is it because the type of magnesium in foods aren't as absorb-able as chelated versions found in supplements (aspartate, glycinate, etc.)?

No, it is because most poeple eat a terrible diet of refined junk food

There is really not much difference in bioavailability between different supplemental forms of magnesium. Don't let the sellers of fancy super-expensive magnesium formulas fool you. Most studies suggesting that some form of magnesium has superior bioavailability compared to another have methodological issues. The reason that cheap magnesium oxide appears to have less bioavailbility compared to citrate or amino acid chelates if you look at short-term absorption only is because the oxide is some kind of "sustained release" form. If you instead look at long-term absorption over a 24h period, there are hardly any differences in bioavailability.

This is why I wrote:

are the vitamins in cereals "added" meaning the cereal itself does not have those vitamins by default but it was added? Most of these cereals still have copper and iron. I thought I was free of those ever since i dumped my multi vitamin.

Are you kidding me? I suggest that you look up the definition of the word "added" in a dictionary. Besides, I have already thoroughly explained this very issue to you in this very topic. Maybe you should add some memory-enhancing nootropic to your supplement stack?

[...]

That's it. I'm out of this odd topic. I'm not going to act like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.

I should have stayed with what I said...

[eon]

is taking a vitamin or any supplement on specific times (day or night) relevant? What I mean by this is that some people have said to take niacin or taurine before bedtime. It works because it makes you go to sleep? Some have said that it's better to take gelatin supplements during the night. I don't know why. Kinda like when you take caffeine during day time, not during night time since you won't be able to sleep. Is this relevant with some vitamins and minerals or not really? I take my b vitamins during night time a few hours before I sleep. No specific reason other than I already take several supplements during day time so I had to split it and spread it out.

Zinc is said to be for "growth", so do I take it before I go to bed to boost its "purpose"? I take vitamin D3 during day time but should I be taking it during night time since there is no sunshine during the night? I should take my chromium during day time since that's when I eat most of my "sugars" since chromium is for glucose tolerance factor, right? And so on...

Edited by eon, 08 December 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[niner]

is nattokinase similar to K2? They both come from natto? Similar purpose for bloodflow. Not sure why nattokinase isn't called vitamin K2, MK7.

No, they are not remotely the same thing. One (nattokinase) is an enzyme, and the other is a small molecule.

is taking a vitamin or any supplement on specific times (day or night) relevant? What I mean by this is that some people have said to take niacin or taurine before bedtime. It works because it makes you go to sleep? Some have said that it's better to take gelatin supplements during the night. I don't know why. Kinda like when you take caffeine during day time, not during night time since you won't be able to sleep. Is this relevant with some vitamins and minerals or not really? I take my b vitamins during night time a few hours before I sleep. No specific reason other than I already take several supplements during day time so I had to split it and spread it out.

Zinc is said to be for "growth", so do I take it before I go to bed to boost its "purpose"? I take vitamin D3 during day time but should I be taking it during night time since there is no sunshine during the night? I should take my chromium during day time since that's when I eat most of my "sugars" since chromium is for glucose tolerance factor, right? And so on...

One of the most relevant things about when you should take a supplement is whether you have an empty stomach or a full stomach. Most things will absorb better on an empty stomach, but some things may cause stomach upset unless you eat first. As for time of day, irrespective of food, some people will try to take stimulating compounds in the morning and take calming compounds at night.

For most things, it doesn't matter what time of day you take them. The effects of zinc, D3, and chromium happen on a long enough timescale that you don't need to worry about any of that.

[eon]

so empty stomach means the supplements are water soluble. full stomach means the supplements are fat soluble. So far most of my supplements are to be taken "after meals", with the exception of vitamin C since it is water soluble, maybe vitamin E as well.

[eon]

anyone know of what foods to avoid with certain vitamins or minerals? Someone told me to avoid grains when using zinc because grains has phytic acid. I completely forgot wheat count as grain! LOL. I took my zinc after I had my shredded wheat cereal and wheat bread. But I think the phytic acid in these foods are not as high as supplemental phytic acid, IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate). Still wonder what happens to the zinc added with those other cereals that are also made of wheat (grain). Why would it be added when it's only going to be useless?

I had just bought the cereal called Shredded Wheat. It only has 1 ingredient: whole wheat. I have to get used to the taste as it is sugar free, unlike the cereals I was used to eating all those years which has 10-20 grams of sugars per serving. Sounds unhealthy just thinking about it.

I think avoiding cranberry juice is also good advice since it flushes out stuff out of the body and drinking this with my vitamins may flush all of it out so the vitamins becomes useless. Grapefruit is another no no. What else did I miss?

Someone here mentioned muesli as a better alternative to cereals. I can't find it at my local Walmart yet Walmart (online) sells several muesli brands as "online only". Weird.

Edited by eon, 10 December 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Gerrans]

anyone know of what foods to avoid with certain vitamins or minerals? Someone told me to avoid grains when using zinc because grains has phytic acid. I completely forgot wheat count as grain! LOL. I took my zinc after I had my shredded wheat cereal and wheat bread. But I think the phytic acid in these foods are not as high as supplemental phytic acid, IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate). Still wonder what happens to the zinc added with those other cereals that are also made of wheat (grain). Why would it be added when it's only going to be useless?

I had just bought the cereal called Shredded Wheat. It only has 1 ingredient: whole wheat. I have to get used to the taste as it is sugar free, unlike the cereals I was used to eating all those years which has 10-20 grams of sugars per serving. Sounds unhealthy just thinking about it.

I think avoiding cranberry juice is also good advice since it flushes out stuff out of the body and drinking this with my vitamins may flush all of it out so the vitamins becomes useless. Grapefruit is another no no. What else did I miss?

Someone here mentioned muesli as a better alternative to cereals. I can't find it at my local Walmart yet Walmart (online) sells several muesli brands as "online only". Weird.

I would not worry about this too much. Only a portion of minerals is bound by phytates, not the whole lot. And I have looked into research on the effect of phytic acid in grains on mineral absorption, and even where researchers find reduced mineral absorption, they always add a note to say that this should not damage the health of well-fed western people. The only real danger is to very poor people who live almost totally on a diet of rice or other staple grains, in which case they can develop deficiencies.

Research has also tended to just measure absorption from the upper intestine, without taking into account that minerals bound by phytic acid there may subsequently be released in the lower intestine through fermentation of fibre. In fact, it could be a health benefit of phytic acid that it spares some nutrients to feed the gut bacteria lower down.

I also read that the effect of phytic acid on mineral absorption does not last after the normal term of digestion. So you could take your zinc with a meal in which you do not eat grains or high-fibre foods, safe in the knowledge it will not be stolen away by previously eaten phytates waiting to pounce.

[eon]

Well I eat my grain and fibers first then take my supplements after I had just eaten. But I'll take your word for it. I doubt 15 mg of zinc picolinate would be wasted after I had just eaten whole wheat cereals and bread.

[eon]

I'm looking into some height gain formula. I found upon research that these vitamins play vital role: B1, B2, Calcium, Vitamin C and D, and phosphorus. I take all except B2, Calcium and phosphorus. I wanted to take calcium but everyone here said to avoid supplementing with it due to calcification? My calcium intake barely makes it to 100% daily value since I only drink my almond milk in the morning. Of course other meals should have some calcium but nothing like milk. Wouldn't my intake of vitamin D supplement benefit calcium and phosphorus? If I ever decide to get some calcium, what is the best form, chelated or coral? I'm assuming 1000 mg would be the dose? Wouldn't the most active form of any vitamin end with "ate" like for riboflavin, it's riboflavin 5-phosphate?

[blood]

I'm looking into some height gain formula.

What do you mean?

[timar]

I'm looking into some height gain formula.

I'm sure Dr. Mercola sells one...

[eon]

I've read about vitamins specifically for gaining height. That's what I meant. Wouldn't these be vitamins specifically for bones then? Like vitamin D, Boron, Calcium, etc.

Does anyone know if there's another form of thiamine (vitamin B1)? What I have is a Thiamine HCL. I haven't seen any other form like a 5-phosphate or other form that ends in "ate". Does it even exist? I've seen a benfotiamine version, it's fat soluble.

I'm looking into some height gain formula.

What do you mean?

Edited by eon, 12 December 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[eon]

I just started taking boron 3mg daily. I'm thinking of taking another 3mg pill twice daily, so 6mg daily. I read that it's tolerable up to 20mg. But I won't take that much. Seems like every multi vitamin has their boron amount at 3mg. I feel like stepping it up a bit. Mine is the chelated boron, Tri-Boron from Twinlab.

[niner]

I've read about vitamins specifically for gaining height.

That might work if you are a malnourished child from sub-Saharan Africa, but as a presumably well nourished American, I don't think vitamins will do anything for height.

I just started taking boron 3mg daily. I'm thinking of taking another 3mg pill twice daily, so 6mg daily. I read that it's tolerable up to 20mg. But I won't take that much. Seems like every multi vitamin has their boron amount at 3mg. I feel like stepping it up a bit.

Some essential micronutrients have severely negative consequences if you use too much of them. I'd stick with the RDA unless you know it's ok to go higher.

[eon]

what vitamins and minerals should be taken together at the same time to get its full benefits/effects? I usually take a vitamin D3 in the morning but plan on taking a coral calcium just before I go to bed. Should this be taken at the same time or "within a day" is just fine? Should I take a vitamin K2 at the same time I take a coral calcium so the calcium goes to where it needs to go? Kinda like when people take a racetam with choline at the same time to get its full synergistic effect. I would think the same goes for vitamins and minerals?

[Darryl]

Fat soluable nutrients (vitamins A, D, E, and K; CoQ₁₀; carotenes β-, astaxanthin, zeaxanthin etc.) accumulate slowly and are slowly excreted. Barring competition for absorption, for most one could probably take them (at 7x scaled doses) once weekly with minor changes in effective in vivo concentrations compared to daily dosing.

As for calcium, the intestinal epithelium isn't a passive sieve; excesses simply won't be absorbed if body stores are adequate.

There are cases among essential minerals where one interferes with absopbtion of others, for example calcium interferes with magnesium absorption, zinc with copper etc. This can sometimes be used to one's advantage, for example, adequate levels of iron, zinc & calcium interfere with absorption of toxic metal cadmium.

[eon]

then why is calcium supplement almost always come with magnesium? Sometimes even zinc?

[eon]

what are some supplements (vitamins/minerals) that can be taken year-round and what are some that should be cycled? I think vitamin C and fish oils could be taken year-round just for example. I have a habit of finishing my supply of the supplement. I have a bottle of Niacin which has 100 pills, I would finish this bottle so that means I'd be on Niacin for 100 days. Is this OK? It's a B vitamin so I figured it should be fine. I pretty much use vitamins and minerals year-round but there has to be something that should be cycled off and on? Could this be something like calcium, vitamin A, iron, copper, etc? The ones that should not be used as "supplement", yet it's available for sale (for those deficient people). Not that I supplement with those except for coral calcium.

What are some supplements to avoid taking with each other? Is it ok to take niacin while using vitamin K2 MK-7? Doesn't niacin dilate the veins and MK-7 is also for arterial health of sort? Not sure if there's an adverse effects here with how these supplement is for.

Edited by eon, 05 January 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Darryl]

No averse effects have been observed for phylloquinone (K₁), or any of the menaquinones (K₂), even at extreme doses. Menadione (K₃), used in animal feeds and some dog foods, is to be avoided.

Pucaj, Kresimir, et al. "Safety and toxicological evaluation of a synthetic vitamin K2, menaquinone-7." Toxicology mechanisms and methods 21.7 (2011): 520-532.

Scaling up the rat NOAEL for K2-Mk7 to human doses (with appropriate dosimetric adjustments) suggests 98 mg / day for 70 kg humans should be without ill effect. That's about 1000 of those 100 μg capsules.

Nicotinic acid acts through entirely different mechanisms, lowering plasma free fatty acids and stimulating expression of the ABCA 1 cholesterol transporter, mediated perhaps by its role as a NAD⁺ precursor. High-dose nicotinic acid does have hepatoxicity if taken in no-flush / time release formulations, but full-flush (crystalline, immediate release) nicotinic acid and prescription intermediate release formulations (Niaspan etc) are much safer at therapeutic doses. The predominant niacin vitamer in supplements, nicotinamide, lacks the lipid benefits, and is hepatotoxic and impairs insulin sensitivity at high doses.

Regarding your earlier question, calcium only supplements would impair absorption of dietary magnesium, and added the magnesium in some supplements is intended to counter this effect.

Edited by Darryl, 05 January 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[eon]

I just replaced my fish oil with non-fish DHA, from Algae just to try it out. Very expensive. More than 50% the price of any omega-3s that I know of per pill and per dosage. It better be good. The dosages are lower typically 100-200mg per pill, not sure if it's because of its rarity. It always has the name "Neuromins" posted on the bottles of this type of DHA, not sure if that is some sort of patent to this Algae-based DHA product.

I'm looking into calcium orotate as well. It was said to be ultra absorbable than anything else. I'm starting to like coral calcium since it is cheaper but I'm willing to try a variety of types of certain supplements.

Someone recommended me coral calcium is why I took it but I forgot that anything with "ate" at the end of the type of calcium it is supposedly the better form as in calcium "orotate".

Edited by eon, 06 January 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[eon]

still wondering if a water soluble vitamin like C, can be absorbed using fat. Let's say I had just finished eating, can vitamic C be absorbed in fats or it must be strictly water? I know vice versa can not work with fat soluble vitamins like E, using only water.

So when taking a fat soluble vitamin like E, how much fat is needed exactly? Would a tablespoon of peanut butter be enough?

From what I understand any vitamins or drug that dissolves in water is water soluble. Fat soluble are either gooey, oily, or not in powdered form as the case with an Olive Leaf supplement, which is "leafy" or "grassy". I'd think this is fat soluble since it doesn't dissolve in water the way powdery substance would.

Edited by eon, 09 January 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[eon]

anyone here know why the flush I am experiencing with niacin is more intense? I think I noticed this when taking alpha lipoic acid, but hours apart. My niacin is time-release so it stays in the body for hours. What makes niacin's flush more intense? I think this had something to do with other supplements I am taking? I only took 100mg of Alpha Lipoic Acid (RALA), in bulk powder form the past 2 days and the flush with niacin is just more intense. Why is this?

[nameless]

I'm looking into calcium orotate as well. It was said to be ultra absorbable than anything else. I'm starting to like coral calcium since it is cheaper but I'm willing to try a variety of types of certain supplements.

Orotic acid has been found to increase tumor incidence in rats, so probably best to avoid calcium orotate. We had a discussion on that here years ago in reference to magnesium orotate.

If I was you, I'd check out cronometer, and see if you need to supplement anything at all.

[blood]

still wondering if a water soluble vitamin like C, can be absorbed using fat. Let's say I had just finished eating, can vitamic C be absorbed in fats or it must be strictly water? I know vice versa can not work with fat soluble vitamins like E, using only water.

It probably doesn't matter when you take water soluble vitamins like C, & B complex - take with a meal (which contains fat, or not), or on an empty stomach, according to your preference. Note that vitamin C taken with meals, might increase absorption of iron, though.

I would warn against taking trace mineral supplements, or multivitamins, on an empty stomach - particularly those containing manganese. Factors in food - phytates, calcium, polyphenols, zinc, iron - hinder manganese absorption, which is what you want. Taking a highly bioavailable source of manganese on an empty stomach over long periods of time is a recipe for disaster, in my view. Actually, there is no need to supplement with manganese - given deficiencies have never been observed in people (other than in laboratory studies where subjects are deliberately fed synthetic diets devoid of manganese). Arguably, you should avoid any multivitamin supplement containing any amount of manganese.

Edited by blood, 14 January 2014 - 10:30 PM.

[eon]

I don't take a multi anymore. It doesn't have the type or the amount of vitamins and minerals I want. Anyway, what's this cronometer thing?

I'm not buying any calcium orotate right now. Read things about it I didn't like although it usually gets 5 stars from customers. Its price is also the highest. I opted for Calcium amino ethyl phosphate (calcium EAP), patented by Dr. Hans Napier (?) though not sure if that means anything credibility wise. I'm also looking into dicalcium phosphate. I think that has good source of phosphorus and calcium as well. I had been looking for a phosphorus supplement but could not find one. Does any supplement with the wording "phosphate" translate to having phosphorus in it?

Edited by eon, 15 January 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[eon]

are the same people running Life Extension who wrote the book with the same title Life Extension: A Practical Scientific Approach, authored by Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw? It was published in 1983. I had just bought the book on amazon and one review called it a "supplement advertisement". So I'm curious if the same people who wrote the book is running the Life Extension magazine and supplement we all know about.

One reviewer of the book quoted an advice from the book "if you do nothing else, take a cheap selenium supplement [11.6: (but use selenate not selenite)] and don't be afraid of egg yolks."

Interesting mention of selenium. My source of it is just brazil nuts. I haven't seen a selenate, but a selenite. Is this an error? I see a Twinlab selenite. Other brands have L-selenomethionine. Did selenate change its name or what? I know the book was published in 1983 so info. must have changed since.