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[nettle]

Hi all,

I've been curious for a number of months about supplementing with Tyrosine and 5-htp, and have read basically everything I can find on the internet about how to do that safely, but still have some lingering questions and concerns that I thought some of you might be able to address.

There isn't much direct advice online about the protocol recommended by Marty Hinz and his former student (?) Daniel Kalish, aside from this list of recommended cofactor supplements, which has been blogged about in a few places:

• Vitamin C: 1,000 mg / day
• Vitamin B6: 75 mg/ day
• Calcium: 500 mg/ day -
• Cysteine: 4,500 mg/ day (divided doses)
• Selenium: 400 mcg / day
• Folic Acid: 2,000 – 3,000 mcg / day

(Hinz talks about folate, selenium, and cysteine on his site, but not the actual dosages. This blog post lists the above supplements, which supposedly came from the linked YouTube presentation by Dr. Kalish, which has since been taken down. Kalish has a line of supplements on his site, but you can't view them unless you're a patient with log-in info.)

Questions:

1. Is that high a dose of l-cysteine really necessary? I am worried by the statement here that 7,000 mg of cysteine can cause death, and by comments elsewhere online that taking cysteine without twice the quantity of Vitamin C can lead to oxidation and renal stones. Yikes! Is l-cysteine safe to take, and what dosage should I use as a 114 lb person taking 500-1000 mg tyrosine/50-100 mg 5-htp?

(See this on l-cysteine kidney stones. Oxidation seems well established.)

(FYI, Hinz says NAC would not work in this regard, and also I dislike NAC and find it gives me a racing heart and hyperventilation.)

2. Hinz and Kalish say that SAM-e can also be used as a sulfur donor instead of cysteine, but I could only find one page with a suggestion on how much to use. This product page for “Cysreplete” mentions that SAM-e would have to be used at about 4,500 mg per day, which sounds absolutely insane. I was leaning towards using SAM-e instead of cysteine, because it has more studies showing its safety, but I don’t think it would be good news at that high a dose. In fact, I’ve never heard of anyone taking more than 800 mg.

3. I have not seen MSM listed as a possible sulfur donor, but I don’t understand why it wouldn’t be. I also wonder if I could get most of my sulfur more safely from eating enough sulfur-rich vegetables. See this overview from Mark's Daily Apple. (Also I encourage everyone to watch the incredible video linked on that page if you have not already. Many of us supplement-popping people need to remember that the best brain food is just a lot of good food.) I eat a lot of those sulfur-rich vegetables every day anyway. Does that mean I can cut back a bit on the cysteine?

4. Are those high dosages of B6, Selenium, and Folate necessary for at most 1000 mg Tyrosine/100 mg 5-htp, consumed by a 114 lb person, or should I go slightly lower to avoid possible side effects?

5. I’ve seen a few people on this forum mention that they depleted their sulfur taking tyrosine, but how did they know that their sulfur was depleted? If I take less cysteine than recommended out of the above concerns, or if I take SAM-e at 400 mg and that’s not enough, how will I know if I deplete my body of sulfur?

6. How much Vitamin C do I need to take along with the cysteine? As I mentioned above, elsewhere others writing about l-cysteine have said that you should take a 2:1 ratio of Vitamin C:cysteine to prevent oxidation and renal stones. But obviously, if you’re taking 4,500 mg of cysteine, you can’t take 9,000 mg of Vitamin C, because that’s insane and you would have constant digestive issues. I have currently been taking dried Amla fruit powder for my vitamin C, but I wonder whether it’s enough. It’s supposed to be the best and most bioavailable form of Vitamin C, but I don’t know the exact quantity of C in it. (NOW offers a product calls TRU-C, which has 400 mg of Vitamin C derived from Amla fruit extract in just two capsules, so I feel like I have to be at least getting close to 1000 mg of C if I am taking 1 tsp - 1 tbsp of powdered Amla each day.) Should I switch to ascorbic acid, and at what dosage?

7. Are these supplements too much in terms of anti-coagulants? That’s my main reason on holding back on adding pycnogenol too.

Here is my complete proposed stack:

Aminos and cofactors:
500 mg Tyrosine morning (possibly upping to 1000 mg if no effect)
50 mg 5-htp at night (possibly upping to 100 if no effect)
l-cysteine - 2000 mg? 2,500 mg? in divided doses
B complex - contains 50 mg B6. I could take ½ a B6 tab additionally to bring the B6 up to 75 mg if necessary.
selenium - 300 mcg
folate - 1800 mcg total (1000 mcg as Quatrefolic L-5-methyl-tetrahydrofolate, glucosamine salt, 800 mcg folic acid from b complex.)
1 tsp - 1 tbsp amla fruit powder for natural Vitamin C
bone formula - contains 1000 mg calcium

other things:
½ - 1 tsp Piracetam
zinc/copper 30 mg/30 mcg
Uridine - sublingual 150 mg
ALCAR - 150 mg
CDP Choline - 250 mg
fish oil - 1000 mg EPA/180 DHA
Lion’s Mane mushroom extract - 150 mg
3,700 mg of Vitamin D total per day
½ tsp glutamine throughout the day between meals
probiotics
200 - 400 mg magnesium glycinate
3 mg melatonin - may not be necessary now with 5-htp
I have also been taking astaxanthin for an antioxidant, but think I would like to switch to pycnogeol (for non-brain health reasons)

Any suggestions or tips appreciated. I want to meet my cofactor requirements while not taking anything at a potentially dangerous level.

thanks in advance

[BioFreak]

If I remember it right the dosage for cysteine was about 3,5g/day(don't take my word for it). You could maybe use sam-e instead, but it would be insanely expensive, since you have to supply the body with enough sulfur. MSM will help a bit, but due to the way it donors sulfur, it will not be enough, even at extremely high dosages. Its because the body needs more steps to convert it into a source that can be used directly by the sulfur cycle, while cysteine is part of the sulfur cycle.

I can not, and probably noone else, tell you what the right dosage of cysteine and cofactors is for X mg of 5-htp.

See - that stack does work in raising serotonin. Also in balancing dopamine somewhat. But you're messing with those metabolic pathways in a significant way by doing that, and that is why all those other cofactors are needed.
I've been on this stuff for lots of years. I really needed it when I was depressed like hell, and I had an emotional pain that simply didn't go away for 2 decades prior to starting that stack. Did it help? yes. Was it the best intervention possible? probably not. I was able to get off all this stuff with the uridine stack, and I believe it partly fixed a part of my brain that was damaged from this decade long suffering. So this is, why I am now more into brain regeneration and psychotherapeutic interventions (even though I do them myself), and I would only go back to this stack if I was completely fucked up again. There are a lot of side effects, and its a fine line to balance the supplements, to get rid of the side effects. The worst side effect was that it affected my memory, even when I thought I got the stack "right". There are literally years where I do not remember much from, and thats due to 5-htp and possibly the stack.

I had a lot of trouble with my brain feeling like a 70 year old, and while I can not tell if it was that stack, the decades of emotional pain and stress, me messing around with mucuna, or the massive emotional stress I am now in seeing my grandma suffering and getting worse... I can tell you this: if you have the luxury of not being completely fucked up by extreme emotional suffering and depression, go for regenerative supplements, and psychotherapy.

So this is my advice for you: Don't use the stack unless you are severely depressed and need a way out. Because if it works for you, it will only fight the symptoms. I would rather advise you to try out the uridine stack... get psychotherapy... try out my longvida curcumin + nac stack... if you are up for it, try c60... combine them all if you wish.

But if you really need a way out, you could as well get to your doc and get an ssri (which may work short-medium term), and save yourself money if your insurance pays for it. There is no way around getting the cause fixed, and the 5-htp stack, just like ssris, just improve symptoms. They both have pro's and con's, but won't help in the long run, until you fix the problem. And if you do that, you don't need that shit anymore anyways.

If you insist on taking the stack I will see if I can still find the proper dosages.

Edited by BioFreak, 22 November 2013 - 01:03 PM.