94 replies to this topic

[shp5]

It is typically impossible for the home manufacturer to validate that they have created liposomes. However, we're fortunate this guy had access to a biological research lab and have used their microscopes to confirm liposome creation. 

 

http://qualityliposomalc.com/ (you can actually make your own without an ultrasonic cleaner)

 

thank you very, very much.

 

 

 

will ratios change when using  sodium ascorbate instead of ascorbic acid?

Edited by shp5, 22 April 2014 - 08:10 PM.

[zorba990]

 

It is typically impossible for the home manufacturer to validate that they have created liposomes. However, we're fortunate this guy had access to a biological research lab and have used their microscopes to confirm liposome creation. 

 

http://qualityliposomalc.com/ (you can actually make your own without an ultrasonic cleaner)

 

thank you very, very much.

 

 

 

will ratios change when using  sodium ascorbate instead of ascorbic acid?

 

 

Excellent information!  Especially the part about alcohol.  Livon labs recently changed their ingredients to include EDTA (don't care) and Xanthan gum (a laxative that messes up gut flora and tastes terrible!).  The new formulation tastes terrible, can no longer be used topically, and may cause GI distress (the very reason many people use liposomal C is to avoid this).   So they have, IMO, ruined the product that has worked so well.

 

Vitamin C foundation produces a new non china sourced product but the cost is prohibitive.

 

So DIY seems the only way left to get a high quality product at a decent price.

[YOLF]

The EDTA may be to prevent iron accumulation due to excessive C intake, so it might not be all that bad.

[bentl]

For do-it-yourselfers, here is a site with instructions for making your own:

 

http://www.qualityliposomalc.com/

 

 

[MachineGhostX]

As Longvida (?) has pointed out, many in vivo curcumin studies assess for free curcumin which is virtually nonexisent, whereas curcumin metabolites are readily detected.  Except Longvida's own product, of course.  However, the anti-inflammatory effect of curcumin appears to be due to the metabolites, not free.  So if you want free accumulation of curcumin in the brain, take Longvida, otherwise stick with Meriva or liposomal.

 

[MachineGhostX]

As Longvida (?) has pointed out, many in vivo curcumin studies assess for free curcumin which is virtually nonexisent, whereas curcumin metabolites are readily detected.  Except Longvida's own product, of course.  However, the anti-inflammatory effect of curcumin appears to be due to the metabolites, not free.  So if you want free accumulation of curcumin in the brain, take Longvida, otherwise stick with Meriva or liposomal.

 

Shouldn't have wrote that when tired.  I meant to say that many studies don't assess for free curcumin which is virtually nonexistent in the serum after ingesting (even most "enhanced") curcumin; so they assay for curcumin metabolites instead.

[Phoenicis]

I'm a little surprised that no one on this website has enough experience with nanoparticles to provide some feedback on this. I have downloaded about 300 articles and a few books covering nanoparticle formulations and they offer clear advantages for transdermal, mucosal and oral delivery of active ingredients. I have seen ultrasonic baths used in several studies, they are less efficient than probes but can do the job if given enough time. An adavantage of the bath technique is that it will also lead to less free radical production than the probe method, because of less cavitation and lower temperatures. There are many other techniquies used to create liposomes, inlcuding microfluidics and homogenization. 

Edited by Phoenicis, 30 August 2014 - 04:36 AM.

[Kalliste]

Could you be more specific Phoenicis? Feedback on nanoformulations of curcumin?

[RicardoW]

has anyone tride it while having a flu or someting?

if it works it would be grate to use it occassionally    

[shp5]

Soon I'll be doing a new batch with sodium ascorbate. Is there any reason why, in the ultrasonic stage, I shouldn't use a thick PET-bag  as a container for the solution?

Edited by shp5, 04 November 2014 - 06:50 PM.

[nightlight]

Soon I'll be doing a new batch with sodium ascorbate. Is there any reason why, in the ultrasonic stage, I shouldn't use a thick PET-bag  as a container for the solution?

 

Plastics break down under ultrasound leaching phtalates (for PET rasins) into the liposomal solution. I found a suitable glass beaker used for "french press" coffee making like this one, 12 cup, 5 inches in diameter that fits in 2.5 liter ultrasonic unit. It is very light and thin glass which works perfectly. Verifying via "aluminum foil test" (you drop a piece of aluminum foil into water and watch how quickly it gets shredded by ultrasound) shows this glass beaker to be  indistinguishable from the test in the bare tub of the unit. I place the plastic mesh at the bottom of the metal tub then put the beaker in the center above the ultrasonic transceiver, then fill up water into the tub to the max line. Since it will move if left free, I put two rubber bands around unit, one on each side of the beaker, which holds it in place. I also add ice cubes into the water around since the cold sonification creates smaller liposomes. The temperature is kept between 60 and 70F throughout the 4-5 cycles I run it for a 32 oz batch. Note that liposomal solution in the beaker rises above the water level in the tub (at about twice the water height).

 

Edited by nightlight, 04 November 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[nightlight]

has anyone tride it while having a flu or someting?

if it works it would be grate to use it occassionally    

 

I didn't get flu or cold for year and half since I started making and using Liposomal C, even though several cycles of colds swept around me in that period. Interestingly, when exposed to a cold or flu virus, I can notice the early onset of the infection. At that point I start taking Liposomal C every hour, in 1/2 oz doses (1 gram of sodium ascorbate/dose) and it beats the virus right back, completely clearing the symptoms. If I skip a dose during that initial exposure phase, the virus bounces back. After 6-8 cycles the virus is beaten for good and I can go back to 1/2 oz dose ever 2-3 hours, which is my usual rate.

[nightlight]

For do-it-yourselfers, here is a site with instructions for making your own:

 

http://www.qualityliposomalc.com/

 

That method uses alcohol in the solution, which is a no-go for me since getting drunk doesn't go well with my work (programming & algorithms research). Also, he sonicates the solution for too long (for hours, cumulatively) which would damage vitamin C due to ultrasonic cavitation (I run a batch only for 25-30 minutes under ultrasound).

[shp5]

thanks nightlight. I specifically searched for information on ultrasound cleaners and plastic bags, but didn't find anything useful. so much for my google-fu.

 

do you think the lengthy blending damages the vitamin C too? I suppose with no cavitation, there should be no problem.

Edited by shp5, 05 November 2014 - 04:55 AM.

[nightlight]

do you think the lengthy blending damages the vitamin C too? I suppose with no cavitation, there should be no problem.

 

The ultrasound always produces cavitation, so some vitamin C will end up damaged. Therefore, one would want to sonicate it as briefly as possible to get the liposomes. I came up with a test, a variant of Brooks Bradley baking soda test, to check the rate of formation of liposomes as follows: I sonicated first the blend of ascorbic acid and lecithin for ~20 minutes. The solution was still acidic as expected (since 20-30% was left outside of liposomes in the water). Then I added dissolved baking soda until solution was neutralized (new bubbles stopped forming), then added some more baking soda to turn the solution explicitly alkaline. At this point all the ascorbic acid  that was outside of liposomes was neutralized and the only acid was left in the liposomes shielded from the excess baking soda.

 

Then I turned the ultrasound on. Instantly the lid of the unit got blown off by the foamy volcano spewing from the tub. Before I could turn the off button, the white foam covered the counter and spilled on the floor below. Within a fraction of a second practically all of the encapsulated ascorbic acid from the liposomes was churned out into the water and was quickly neutralized by the excess baking soda. That means ultrasound breaks open and reforms liposomes extremely quickly, essentially all of them within seconds. Hence, one doesn't need to sonicate the liposomal solution for very long, probably 5-10 minutes would be fine, as in the original Brooks Bradley recipe. I do go longer (25-30 min i.e. until all the foam from blending is gone) since one gets more homogeneous solution that holds better without any separation for a week or longer.
 

[shp5]

The recipe on qualityliposomalc.com/  proposes to blend the mixture in a blender for quite some time, and only then to put it in the ultrasonic cleaner. since blending shouldn't include any cavitation, it should be unproblematic. of course, the way you describe it, this step may be unnecessary.

 

 

[ikon2]

I've been following this thread as I was originally wondering if this method would form true liposomes and I now feel appropriately convinced that it does.  This leads me to wondering if this method would be appropriate for creating one's own liposomal glutathione (GSH)?  If so, would one use reduced glutathione and use the same method?  How much glutathione and I'm wondering what the max/saturation amount could be combined into what volume of lecithin?

[rikelme]

Be careful: do not use rubbing ethyl alcohol. It is denatured, that is, it contains additives that render it toxic for humans.

[satsumass]

11. Dissolve 1 Heaping Tablespoon of Bob’s Red Mill Bicarbonate of Soda (Bob’s is Aluminum free) in 2nd jar, seal and shake / agitate vigorously until baking soda is dissolved.

12. While stirring the Vitamin C / distilled water solution very slowly pour/dribble the dissolved bicarbonate of soda/water mixture into the Vitamin C / distilled water solution. (Pour soda solution slowly as the resulting mixture will bubble. By pouring slowing and constantly stirring Vitamin C solution you will be able to mix the two without bubbling over.)

13. At the conclusion of mixing the bicarbonate of soda mixture into the Vitamin C mixture bubbling will cease. Pour the resulting total Vitamin C / Bicarbonate of Soda mix together into what was the Bicarbonate of Soda jar and swirl to dissolve any soda that may have settled out.

You can eliminate these steps if you use Sodium Ascorbate instead of Ascorbic Acid + Baking Soda. Besides greatly simplifying the preparation, it also allows more of Vitamin C to be fully dissolved.

Another supplement which works well in Liposomal form is Acetyl-L-Carnitine/ALCAR (I add ~12g in a separate one 1.5 cup batch). It's best to use pure ALCAR in powder form without fillers that come in capsules (Swanson has pure S.A. powder, too). One table spoon of the final potion provides 1/2 g of Liposomal ALCAR which I find at least as effective (in terms of energy & mood boost) as 1g of ALCAR in regular caps. I also experimented with couple batches with Liposomal PEA, but found it much too stimulating/intoxicating in an unproductive way (a distracting dopamine rush unsuitable for mental work), leaving the hangover after-effects.

Hi nightlight,

I'm very interested in your experience attempting to make liposomal PEA. I bought some PEA last week for this express purpose, as I had very good initial response using PEA years ago for my treatment resistant bipolar depression, when I was also taking an MAO inhibitor, but found that even with an MAOI, it had such a short effect that I ended up having to take it too frequently and at escalating doses, leading to a lot of negative effects.

However, it had unique effects on mood and sociability that no other agent ever has had, so I'd like to try a liposomal formulation. Can you share the details about your "recipe" for liposomal PEA, and what doses you tried it at? Did you compare the dose of liposomal PEA to equivalent doses of straight PEA at all, and what did you find? Do you think the liposomal delivery, besides getting it past breakdown in the gut, extended PEAs effective duration of action as well? Problem with PEA is that even if it gets into the gut it's broken down quickly in the brain, so wondering about this.

In any event would love to hear details before I try. I was planning to start super low, 20mg of PEA (liposomal) and gauge response, increasing from there.

Thanks for any help you can provide.


In contrast, the Liposomal C & ALCAR result in very subtle and non-disruptive sense of well being, cascading down from the top of the head and throughout the body which lasts for hours, boosting the urge to 'do stuff' (a strong anti-procrastination effect). The above pleasant sensations are not intrusive since one has to pay attention to experience them, hence they don't interfere with mental focus and work.

[nightlight]

 

I'm very interested in your experience attempting to make liposomal PEA. I bought some PEA last week for this express purpose, as I had very good initial response using PEA years ago for my treatment resistant bipolar depression, when I was also taking an MAO inhibitor, but found that even with an MAOI, it had such a short effect that I ended up having to take it too frequently and at escalating doses, leading to a lot of negative effects.

However, it had unique effects on mood and sociability that no other agent ever has had, so I'd like to try a liposomal formulation. Can you share the details about your "recipe" for liposomal PEA, and what doses you tried it at? Did you compare the dose of liposomal PEA to equivalent doses of straight PEA at all, and what did you find? Do you think the liposomal delivery, besides getting it past breakdown in the gut, extended PEAs effective duration of action as well? Problem with PEA is that even if it gets into the gut it's broken down quickly in the brain, so wondering about this.

In any event would love to hear details before I try. I was planning to start super low, 20mg of PEA (liposomal) and gauge response, increasing from there.

 

I was making it in 16oz batches of Liposomal solution: 16 oz of distilled water, 32g of sunflower lecithin and 4g of pure PEA crystals (or powder). That yields 250mg of PEA per 1/2oz dose I normally take with other Liposomal supplements. I made it in the simplest way possible -- fully dissolve 4g of PEA in 16oz of water at room temperature then blend at high speed for 5 min with 32g of lecithin. Finally, sonicate for 40-50 min (the temperature will rise to 90-95F by then due to ultrasound energy absorption).

 

The effect for 1/2oz dose is noticeably stronger than 250mg of regular oral PEA (I don't take MAOI), but the PEA rush/buzz doesn't last very much longer, only 20-25min (vs ~15 for the same dose of regular oral PEA). While the sensation is mildly pleasant, I find it quite distracting and completely unsuitable as a nootropic. At best it might work as aphrodisiac. The tolerance builds very quickly and every 2-3 doses one needs to keep increasing the dose for the same effect. Unlike many other PEA experimenters, I also get a hangover from it. Altogether it was enough trouble for me to leave it alone.

[wbray123]

I am interested in making liposomal vitamin C, at least for special uses, if I feel I'm getting sick, or as a tonic from time to time. I can't find anybody saying what it tastes like! Someone posted about the taste of powdered vitamin c in water, but it's not the same. Some reviewers of liposonal vitamin c sold on Amazon were unable to take it because the taste was too horrible. Maybe your recipe is different. And, how long will the preparation keep? Thanks.

[mag1]

Anyone have any advice on how to make your own enteric coated pills? What would be a good substance on the surface?

Edited by mag1, 05 July 2015 - 10:20 PM.

[dazed1]

Hi guys, can anyone share some info on liposomes stability? im getting alot of conflicting reports on this subject.

 

Some say 32c some say 40, some say 55? can any share same relevant info, this is imporant because if they dont brake over 32c as stated in one recipe, i could cut out the process time in about 5-6h which is crucial to me.

[Javanse]

I wonder if adding Bioperine to your recipe can further optimize the bioavaiability for the curcumin. As you have maybe already noticed, Bioperine is used a lot together with curcumin as supplement, to optimize the bioavaiability.

 

 

 

Edited by Javanse, 05 December 2016 - 12:40 PM.

[YOLF]

Anyone have any advice on how to make your own enteric coated pills? What would be a good substance on the surface?

 

I found enteric capsules on Amazon for another project... not sure what good it will do you though...

[YOLF]

Anyone tried this with anthocyanins? They're very expensive and have poor bioavailability... might be a good way to get all the benefits for a fraction of the cost...

[Phoebus]

Anyone tried this with anthocyanins? They're very expensive and have poor bioavailability... might be a good way to get all the benefits for a fraction of the cost...

 

great question I was wondering the same thing myself. Although I'm not sure why you call anthocyanins very expensive, grape seed extract is pretty inexpensive and you can find grape seed extract supplements at 90% – 95%  anthocyanins

[YOLF]

 

Anyone tried this with anthocyanins? They're very expensive and have poor bioavailability... might be a good way to get all the benefits for a fraction of the cost...

 

great question I was wondering the same thing myself. Although I'm not sure why you call anthocyanins very expensive, grape seed extract is pretty inexpensive and you can find grape seed extract supplements at 90% – 95%  anthocyanins

 

I neglected to say that I was talking specifically about blueberry anthos as opposed to bilberry or grape seed. Those two have caused me a slight irritation to my eyes at more than minimal dosing, so while I do take a little bit of them, I avoid larger doses. Blueberry anthos however are great for skin. Most things in my regimen cost me under $0.05 per serving... blueberry anthos (or even some others) costs $0.45/day... the only stuff that's more expensive are Astragaloside IV which I get for $0.74/day... maybe a few cents more for the enteric capsule I put it in or the Chitosan and Bioperine that I take to increase it's activity. Oh and Nicotinamide Riboside is $1.24 - 1.33/day or more depending on the brand and quantity that you buy... I cut that one out of my budget. Calcium Threonate is $1.27/day, and tocotrienols are $0.41/day.

G/C is about $0.20/day and the highest grade premium fish oil is $0.17 and $0.21 for 5-Loxin.

 

Though this study review seems to argue that they are more bioavailable AND are enterohepatically recycled.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26772410

 

So maybe they are just going to be expensive. However they are growing anthocyanin extracts in everything from carrots to potatos now, so there is a strong potential to increase production capacity of blueberry equivalent anthocyanins and substantially reduce the cost considering it takes a year for a blueberry plant to yield a measly crop whereas potatoes, rice, corn, goji, tomatoes, and even carrots can produce during virtually any season and potentially generate enough product to have alot of other outputs, not to mention extending the number of climates we can plant them in.

 

But I'm getting off topic. Anything that's more than $0.15/day is pretty expensive. Cutting my costs on some of these more expensive powders with poor bioavailability would go along way to save me money. I love how high doses of BB25% improve skin and sight so quickly... I stopped taking them for a while and people who hadn't seen me in 6 months were wondering what happened to me!

But I'm getting off topic. Anything that's more than $0.15/day is pretty expensive. Cutting my costs on some of these more expensive powders with poor bioavailability would go along way to save me money.

Edited by YOLF, 08 December 2016 - 08:37 AM.

[shp5]

For my next batch I'd like to use calcium ascorbate. there are only sketchy DIY guides online, but I understand this could be done by simply mixing ascorbic acid and calcium carbonate in water, can anyone tell me the ratio to use?

 

 

edit: mhm calcium carbonate seems to have a low solubility in water, I wonder if there is something else to use...

Edited by shp5, 14 February 2017 - 09:00 AM.

[PhaQ]

For my next batch I'd like to use calcium ascorbate. there are only sketchy DIY guides online, but I understand this could be done by simply mixing ascorbic acid and calcium carbonate in water, can anyone tell me the ratio to use?


edit: mhm calcium carbonate seems to have a low solubility in water, I wonder if there is something else to use...

Necrobumping...

The solubility shouldn't be an issue. As the ascorbate reacts with the dissolved calcium carbonate, more calcium carbonate will dissolve in an attempt to reach a new equilibrium. Soon it will all be reacted. You could probably just react the ascorbate with an excess of calcium carbonate, filter out the excess, and automatically have the slightly alkaline solution you're looking for. You'd need to test the pH to be sure. Calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) could also be used, but it's still doesn't have the high solubility that sodium salts do. Also, I've heard concerns that pickling lime has significant aluminum contamination.