274 replies to this topic

[pamojja]

On an anecdotal level, after Fukushima, I wanted to know how I would handle high dose iodide recommended after a nuclear-fallout. Therefore gradually increased from 10mg to 100mg/d within 10 days. Though very far from the magic Siro is reporting, I did feel better from day to day (energetically).

On a physical level I had a marginally enlarged thyroid diagnosed (16.7 µl, with an upper range at 15). And though indicative of an iodine deficiency, the physician warned me of allegedly toxic effects of Iodide in mgs ranges. Just today got it measured again and now its within range (14.8 µl), having taken about 12 mg/d since then, 2 years ago. Still I feel far from going hyper. Curious what thyroid labs will report in 1 week.

Just got the latest labs in. Though still not optimal, but I'm moving in the right direction:

	fT3	fT4	TSH	Iodide
units	pg/ml	ng/dl	mIU/l	µg
2009	3,37	1,41	2,72	100
2010	2,08	1,29	3,4	3700
2011	2,24	1,83	2,13	12000
2012	2,31	2,03	2,37	16000
2013	2,3	1,7	1,32	12000
range	1,71-3,71	0,93-1,7	0,4-2,5
optim.	3,5-4,2	1,2-1,9	0-1,5

Edited by pamojja, 05 December 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[BioFreak]

Just wondering: Is the uranium content of sea water a natural phenomenon, or mankind made?

Edit: seems to be overwhelmingly natural. http://large.stanfor...h241/ferguson2/

Edited by BioFreak, 05 December 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[BioFreak]

On an anecdotal level, after Fukushima, I wanted to know how I would handle high dose iodide recommended after a nuclear-fallout. Therefore gradually increased from 10mg to 100mg/d within 10 days. Though very far from the magic Siro is reporting, I did feel better from day to day (energetically).On a physical level I had a marginally enlarged thyroid diagnosed (16.7 µl, with an upper range at 15). And though indicative of an iodine deficiency, the physician warned me of allegedly toxic effects of Iodide in mgs ranges. Just today got it measured again and now its within range (14.8 µl), having taken about 12 mg/d since then, 2 years ago. Still I feel far from going hyper. Curious what thyroid labs will report in 1 week.

Just got the latest labs in. Though still not optimal, but I'm moving in the right direction: fT3 fT4 TSH Iodide units pg/ml ng/dl mIU/l µg 2009 3,37 1,41 2,72 100 2010 2,08 1,29 3,4 3700 2011 2,24 1,83 2,13 12000 2012 2,31 2,03 2,37 16000 2013 2,3 1,7 1,32 12000 range 1,71-3,71 0,93-1,7 0,4-2,5 optim. 3,5-4,2 1,2-1,9 0-1,5

Great, some nice data. Thanks for posting.
Few questions:
Do you take selenium as well?
Do I understand you right, you had an enlarged thyroid, and it shrunk while on iodine supplementation?

[pamojja]

Exactly, the enlarged thyroid shrunk to normal. Took about 240 µg/d selenium during last 5 years.

[BioFreak]

So... some observations, and questions if you do not mind.

Your tsh increased while on iodine, then returned to normal levels. Just like the iodine docs said. It actually is now lower then on the 100mcg dosage, which, together with the smaller thyroid could mean that your thyroid levels are now in balance.

Your t3 went from low normal levels, but within the normal range, to below the normal range but increased a bit with higher iodine dosage.

Because of that, I need to ask:
Did you notice an decrease in energy, tiredness, memory problems, sensitivity to cold etc, basic hypothyroid symptoms? Or did the opposite happen, or nothing?

Did your weight change? How?

Your low t3 could be both more effectively used by your body, thus the lower t3, and lower tsh, or it could not be high enough (then you'd have hypothyroid symptoms).

t4 was pretty stable and only exceeded the range with your highest dose.

Did you always get lab tests after the same X time of starting another dose?

Thoughts:
Maybe, with 400mcg selenium, the conversion rate could go higher (more t3, less t4). And it seems like it lowers rt3, too.
You could also check reverse t3. Maybe a lot of t3 gets metabolized fast into meaningless rt3.
You could check for antibodies.
You could supplement with NAC and see if it changes your thyroid levels.
You could also increase your iodine dosage and see what happens...

Or maybe, from an symptomatic point of view, you are symptom free - then there is nothing to change, no matter what the ranges say.

Edited by BioFreak, 05 December 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[pamojja]

Did you always get lab tests after the same X time of starting another dose?

No, once to trice a year, averaged above. Depending on the good-will of docs. For the latest results it needed a lot of persuasion to get the actual numbers, since they're all anyway, supposedly, 'normal'.

Because of that, I need to ask:
Did you notice an decrease in energy, tiredness, memory problems, sensitivity to cold etc, basic hypothyroid symptoms? Or did the opposite happen, or nothing?

Did your weight change? How?

Have all those sub-clinical hypothyroid symptoms, lesser now. However, confounded by a peripheral arterial disease due to a 80% stenosis at the abdominal aorta diagnosed 5 years ago. Also lower Androgens, probably due to weaker circulation. With a pretty stable BMI of 20, +/-1, recently a bid increasing.

Maybe, with 400mcg selenium, the conversion rate could go higher (more t3, less t4). And it seems like it lowers rt3, too.
You could also check reverse t3. Maybe a lot of t3 gets metabolized fast into meaningless rt3.
You could check for antibodies.

HTMA (Hair tissue mineral analysis) selenium just came back optimal. Glutathion peroxidase, also a marker of selenium sufficiency, came back midrange a year ago. On a trip to India in spring this year I tried a bid of T3 (20mcg) for a few months, which might be an other cause for the latest lowest TSH. rT3 isn't available to me here in Austria. You know any lab in Germany which does is?

Only could persuade my docs to 2 thyroid peroxidase antibodies tests, which both came back negativ.

You could supplement with NAC and see if it changes your thyroid levels.
You could also increase your iodine dosage and see what happens...

Took in average about 550 mg of NAC, gradually increasing, now at 900 mg/d. Iodine sufficiency allegedly is reached either with 50 mg/d for 3 months, or 12 mg/d for about a year. I'm already well above that.. and prefer to optimize co-factors first. Thanks for the suggestions.

Edited by pamojja, 05 December 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[renfr]

So... some observations, and questions if you do not mind.

Your tsh increased while on iodine, then returned to normal levels. Just like the iodine docs said. It actually is now lower then on the 100mcg dosage, which, together with the smaller thyroid could mean that your thyroid levels are now in balance.

Your t3 went from low normal levels, but within the normal range, to below the normal range but increased a bit with higher iodine dosage.

Because of that, I need to ask:
Did you notice an decrease in energy, tiredness, memory problems, sensitivity to cold etc, basic hypothyroid symptoms? Or did the opposite happen, or nothing?

Did your weight change? How?

Your low t3 could be both more effectively used by your body, thus the lower t3, and lower tsh, or it could not be high enough (then you'd have hypothyroid symptoms).

t4 was pretty stable and only exceeded the range with your highest dose.

Did you always get lab tests after the same X time of starting another dose?

Thoughts:
Maybe, with 400mcg selenium, the conversion rate could go higher (more t3, less t4). And it seems like it lowers rt3, too.
You could also check reverse t3. Maybe a lot of t3 gets metabolized fast into meaningless rt3.
You could check for antibodies.
You could supplement with NAC and see if it changes your thyroid levels.
You could also increase your iodine dosage and see what happens...

Or maybe, from an symptomatic point of view, you are symptom free - then there is nothing to change, no matter what the ranges say.

I wonder if selenium really aids in T4->T3 conversion, I'm saying that because some studies point out that long term high selenium diet leads to weight gain : http://jn.nutrition....33/11/3443.long

[BioFreak]

"Dietary Se supplementation significantly improved (P < 0.001) glutathione peroxidase activity in blood. Furthermore, at the end of the trial, serum tri-iodothyronine (T3) amount also increased (P < 0.05), while serum thyroxine (T4) amount decreased (P < 0.05)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23677850

"Selenium (Se) is an important element that exerts its effects on the selenoproteins. It is an essential component of the glutathione peroxidase enzymes, which have anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties, and a component of iodothyronine selenodeiodinases, which catalyze the extrathyroid production of T3 from T4"
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22453036

I'm sure there are more studies on pubmed, I've just looked 1 minute. Keywords: t3 t4 selenium

Thats an interesting study you posted but as too often in medicine the low sample size may be a problem.

They say
"Because we used real foods from different parts of the world, we cannot completely exclude the possibility that some constituent of the diet other than selenium influenced the effects we observed."

also,
"Decreased thyroid hormone concentrations are frequently observed in confined human metabolic studies and may be related to the carbohydrate content of the experimental diets (55) or to the decreased dietary iodine intake compared with the subjects’ estimated prestudy diets"

So you put 12 people on a diet, locked up so you know more or less what's in the food they eat, and you know that this will decrease their metabolism. Now that this only affected the selenium group may be entirely up to luck due to the low sample rate, the massive dietary change for the subjects, or due to the individual pre-study diets (i.e. some might have more iodine then others, or other nutritional factors that can be stored and once they started the 120day diet some were depleted while others were not, for example, or the majority of one part of the group had an (maybe sub-clinical) allergy to stuff in the diet, etc) Don't forget people choose the foods they eat sometimes because they know that they have less problems with it... Or maybe its a feedback loop where t3 pushes up, but falls below baseline after a longer time period then the study was. Which is quite likely, cause you need selenium for that process.

I think this study is problematic because of its low sample size and complete control over the diet. With less or the same budget, they could have made it a high sample size study, with it's participants eating their usual diets.(This actually makes me sad.) If the sample size is big enough, and selenium is the only factor changed in all of the selenium group, that'll be more interesting, non controlled factors will be less important, and it would be much more applicable to the real world. (looking at this study, you'd have to decrease your selenium intake AND follow their diet to (hopefully) have the same results.

They would not been able to starve their subjects from selenium though. And I am not sure if there is a test for selenium deficiency available... But they could have made a list of foods to avoid for example, which would maybe not be realistic enough for depleting them. Then again, why do a low selenium setup in the first place? Noone really want's to do that. It decreases the bodies ability to fight off oxidant stress, thus increases chances of cancer and other illnesses through oxidation, may induce autoimmune reactions in the thyroid, etc...

Also, they first tried to almost deplete the subjects of selenium, just to keep it low for one group, while increasing it for the other group. How can you rule out that they actually damaged the thyroids this way within the first part of the study?

Maybe the low selenium group has induced the beginning of graves disease or speeded an already present immune reaction up, which would explain the higher t3. The more I think about it, the more I think that this is the best explanation. I think the main reason for a confined human study is that there was no other reliable way to deplete them from selenium. And they did not monitor iodine intake. This means, induced selenium deficiency with lets say, best case scenario normal iodine intake (150mcg?). And we know that his has the potential to damage the thyroid... Kinda nasty study, for the participants.

[riloal]

Hi I see many brans of iodine which one is best, iodoral, jcrow's lugol,s,, iosol TPCS, what should I look in the label to see it,s a great product? should always the iodine be from potassium iodine? thanks

Edited by riloal, 08 December 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[BioFreak]

If you want to follow the orthoiodosupplementation approach by Abrahams, lugol's or iodoral would be the best. Both are a combination of potassium iodide and elemental iodine, the latter may be better tolerated because it is in pill form. But lugol's is much cheaper and should be equally tolerated if you add a bit of vitamin c (which makes the color disappear).

[pamojja]

If you want to follow the orthoiodosupplementation approach by Abrahams, lugol's or iodoral would be the best.

Since you're from Germany, did you ever get these high dose products through German Customs?

PS: I'm asking because a bottle each of TMG (1g pills), ALA (300 mg), and even a trial size bottle of 4 tablets Inflama-Rest (due to Milk Thistle and Nattokinase in it) from the states got confiscated and fined 50,- EUR by Austrian Customs (except the TMG, which was fined 250,- EUR, and been in appeal for years). Seems they do this with anything multiple the RDA or with an ingredient already found in an approved medicine.

Edited by pamojja, 09 December 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[BioFreak]

I bought a big bottle of lugol's solution (a few liters!) around 2010 from a german shop. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the shop. You can go to your pharmacy and ask them for 5% lugolsche lösung though, but it will be more expensive. If they say what you want it for... well, you could say for cleaning your aquarium, or for chemistry experiments such as measuring vitamin c content of fruit juice. If you say for taking it yourself, they might deny you the purchase. I never tried iodoral.

But remember, no iodine without 200-400mcg selenium.

[pamojja]

If you say for taking it yourself, they might deny you the purchase.

Once tried to argument, that after a nuclear fallout, imagine the huge crowd of people storming pharmacies for the, in such cases indicated, 130mg Potassium Iodide. No luck. However many pharmacies I asked for a precautionary potion, they all meant one could still take it up to one day after the fallout..

Hell, they even refused to sell me the actually permitted 99 mg of potassium without a prescription, too dangerous, you know ..now I take 2000 mg/d from other sources.

However, these Iodine drops made it through custom, or this very high dose Potassium Iodide product, which bypasses customs by being send from within the EU.

[niner]

But lugol's is much cheaper and should be equally tolerated if you add a bit of vitamin c (which makes the color disappear).

The color disappears because the iodine is being reduced to iodide by the ascorbic acid. It's better tolerated because there's no elemental iodine...

[BioFreak]

Niner, could you clear that up for me?

I thought elemental iodine gains an electron from ascorbic acid, and is from there on called iodide. But it should still be elemental iodine, just with a different charge? like elemental iodine = positively charged, iodide = negative charged elemental iodine? Or is elemental iodine the term for iodine in its unaltered form?

Is it the elemental iodine that is antibiotic, potassium iodide or both? I think it's the elemental iodine only, but I'm not sure.

[BioFreak]

If you say for taking it yourself, they might deny you the purchase.

Once tried to argument, that after a nuclear fallout, imagine the huge crowd of people storming pharmacies for the, in such cases indicated, 130mg Potassium Iodide. No luck. However many pharmacies I asked for a precautionary potion, they all meant one could still take it up to one day after the fallout..

Hell, they even refused to sell me the actually permitted 99 mg of potassium without a prescription, too dangerous, you know ..now I take 2000 mg/d from other sources.

However, these Iodine drops made it through custom, or this very high dose Potassium Iodide product, which bypasses customs by being send from within the EU.

Evil potassium iodide! You could try to buy it from shops selling laboratory stuff in germany too, lugols at least (surely cheaper then in pill form too...). Depending on the shop, there shouldn't be any questions.

[niner]

I thought elemental iodine gains an electron from ascorbic acid, and is from there on called iodide. But it should still be elemental iodine, just with a different charge? like elemental iodine = positively charged, iodide = negative charged elemental iodine? Or is elemental iodine the term for iodine in its unaltered form?

Is it the elemental iodine that is antibiotic, potassium iodide or both? I think it's the elemental iodine only, but I'm not sure.

In their pure elemental form, all the elements are electrically neutral, meaning that the number of electrons (-) in the atom is the same as the number of protons (+). If you add an electron to iodine ("reduce" it; the opposite of "oxidation", which is removal of electrons), then you get iodide, which is a negative ion. All of the halogens are very hungry for electrons, which is to say that they are powerful oxidizing agents. Once they get the electron they want, they become stable negative ions. Elemental iodine isn't specifically an antibiotic in the classical sense of only being toxic to bacteria. It's more of a biocide, like chlorine, in that it will attack random biomolecules in order to get the electron it wants. Iodine can be used as a disinfectant because humans can withstand a dose that would kill a bacterium, but iodine also harms us a bit in the process. Iodide is benign. The other halogens are similar- chlorine is a toxic biocide, while chloride is a necessary mineral.

It would be easy to avoid the oxidant nature of iodine by using iodide instead, but there's a possible problem with that- There are some reactions that work better with iodine than with iodide. Specifically, addition of iodine to an unsaturated fatty acid, forming an iodolactone. These molecules may have something to do with iodine effects, particularly in breast health.

It might be the case, although I have no evidence to back it up, that we could meet most of our iodine needs with iodide, and use a small enough amount of elemental iodine that we don't have a problem with the oxidative effects, yet still get the benefits. Has anyone ever messed around with the formula of Lugol's, varying the ratio of iodine to iodide?

[SGKen]

Hi Folks,

Just finished reading the whole thread. Nice to see some lively debate going on! So many things I could comment on but then I'd have to read the thread again! May get to it.

I've been playing with Iodine for about 2 years. Stayed at 12.5mg of Iodoral for about a year. Was afraid to go higher... Didn't seem to do too much for the thyroid but I was conviced that there were so many things it was good for. Figured I needed to get to higher doses and detox before good things would happen. Started NDT (Natural Desicated Thyroid, like Armor) about a year ago. Reverse T3 bit me several months into it so I went to mostly T3 to clear it. Cleared and then went up a ways on dosage. After a year on that experiment, I felt the thyroid gland had been well supported (Iodine and cofactors) and had a rest so I wanted to see what it would do. It's been just about a month since the last dose of thyroid hormone. Eh, a little hypo but still playing...

The Yahoo Iodine group was invaluable learning about Iodine dosing, detox and such. The two other groups, RT3_T3 group and the T3CM groups were also of great value to me personally since I was dealing with reverse T3 and such.

Just got an email... Since I just signed up, I can't post links for 10 messages. Darn!

Anyway, I started a Thyroid journel since last November so I kept pretty good track of several things I was taking. I had started to up the iodine, mostly Iodoral but started adding some 5% Lugols as well. For some months now, I have been using Lugols exclusively. Much less expensive, especially at the higher doses. This summer, I have hit as high a 300mg but never took that more than one day before lowering it again. A little hard on the throat and it felt like a bit much. I can easily take 200mg of 5% Lugols though.

Both Logols (or more properly Lugol's) and Iodoral can be found on Amazon as well as Ebay. I know that the folks in Canada can get Lugols over the counter probably much cheaper. Lucky dogs!

So, briefly, Iodoral at lower doses is easier on the system. Both Iodoral and Lugols will kill things off in the intestines and cause discomfort initially if you dose too high to start. Think of Iodoral as a timed release Lugols. Lugols is probably mostly absorbed in the stomach and Iodoral mostly in the intestines over time. Turns out I also use timed release Vit C and since I didn't want to lose the benefit of the elemental Iodine, I would take my Vit C at a different time from the Iodoral. Found a reference to what Vitamin C becomes when it interacts with elemental Iodine, (why isn't my spell checker working???): Dehydroascorbic acid. I put a link in, let's see what happens with the link....

If it doesn't work, then just put "Dehydroascorbic acid blood brain barrier" into google (or as I prefer, StartPage).

http://www.pnas.org/...8/20/11720.full

I do believe that there are Bromine detox symptoms. I had some of them, sometimes as vague as just not feeling right. Using the Sea Salt was helpful in resolving it. At this point, I suspect I have detoxed fairly well as I don't need the sea salt and can take the 200mg (100mg in 12oz water sipped over a couple of hours, twice a day) with out any bad reactions. When starting to raise from 12.5mg, I would experience some reactions as low as 37.5mg and every time I raised it. At this point, no problems with detox or stomach/intestinal discomfort. The body adapts. For me, the detox symptoms are real. If you were to take any one of the toxic substances that Iodine breaks loose and dump the entire load (not what happens) into your blood stream, it would be toxic. Maybe not kill you but could be unpleasant. That iodine is releasing not one but many toxic things, it's no wonder that people have reactions. For those who doubt it, give a whirl and see what happens in your own experience. Reading about water will not quench your thirst.....

Some folks have very little problem with detox, some can't take 1mg without problems. Another said they didn't start detoxing until they went over 100mg. So, it's all individual. I had some but not a lot. Going slow and using the companion nutrients (one of the links a bit back in the thread called Iodine References is very good BTW) gets it out without too many problems. Just listen to your body.

Is it a miracle? Yes, only because we haven't had enough of it in the past. I know some of you have been studying and reading as much as I have. It is helpful for a lots of things well beyond the thyroid. Though I can't say it has done a lot for my thyroid yet (playing with SSKI as well at the moment), I am 60 and my prostate was starting to give me some trouble over the last year or so. Like breast cancer, prostate cancer has been on the rise over the last several decades in most parts of the world. Guess what (not news to some of you), we have much less Iodine in our diets and a lot more bromine, fluoride etc than we used to have. The exception is Japan where at least those who eat a lot of sea food and sea weed get much higher amounts of Iodine, around 13mg. They have among the lowest incidences of cancer on the planet.

My PSA was going up rapidly and I was getting some symptoms that were worrying to me and my Doctor. I was using all the herbs and such and it was holding it at bay but not getting any better. Then I read that a couple of folks had posted that it had cured their BPH. Then I read about Boron and it's part to play. I stopped all the herbs and such and just went with Iodine and Boron. For some months now, after getting to the higher doses of Lugols (50+mg) (for cancer patients they say they do fine on 50-300mg a day, hence why I raised my doses) and adding Boron (20mg/day), I would say I am about 90% better after just a couple of months. For something that usually goes the other way, I would say that's a miracle!

Just getting over a cold. It was the whimpiest cold I have ever had. Of course I am surprised that I got one at all but everyone around me is getting it and not able to go to things. I had all the symptoms but they were very weak.

Oh, and something else I have only rarely seen mentioned, definitely not placebo, I have much less dental plaque, almost none. That started at the 12.5mg range. And the cleaning at the dentist surprised her. Almost no tartar to remove. Those who had done their homework know whay this is. One of the other mitigating things was the addition of Vitamin K2-MK4. That also has an effect on the tarter....

So my answers:
Is detox real? In my book (and many others), Yes!
Is it placebo? Not to me. Other than the near hallucinations, the other things Siro speaks of aren't totally uncommon though not universal. My brain is defintely perkier.

BTW, give me a good placebo any day, as long as it works!

Siro, check your temps at 3,6 and 9 hours after wakening. Keep an eye on your pulse as well. That's one of the surest signs to tell if you are going hyper. You can look that up as well. The body can adjust over time and what may have pushed you a bit hyper at one point, will be just right at another. Or, you may need to be at a lower dose. That you continue to have good effects even after stopping says to me that something has healed. The acne could be bromine detox, make sure to do between 1/4-1 tsp of salt water over a few hours every day. If nothing else, you are young and will grow out of it ;>)

Pamojja, the thyroid groups usually recommend Free T4 be at half or less of the range, Free T3 in the upper 1/3 to 1/4 and a little over range is ok if you feel all right. Due to the population as a whole becoming more hypothyroid, the range has been slipping downward. Reverse T3 should be at a ratio of >20/1 based on Stop the Thyroid Madness web page. A great book and web page resource BTW.

That's enough for now. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents (Ok, a quarter).

Ken

[zorba990]

I find it disturbing that so many people that promote high dose iodine also have to take thyroid hormones. On the surface this makes it appear that high dose iodine may eventually suppress thyroid funtion in the long term, or at least does not correct it. Sea vegatables which contain alot of iodine also contains considerable amounts of bromine so I don't buy the jappanese diet connection, at least not using something like lugols to emulate it.

http://link.springer...1007/BF00541002

Concentration of lodine and bromine by plants in the seas of Japan and Okhotsk

Abstract


Iodine and bromine content were measured in 24 species of red (Rhodophyta), brown (Phaeophyta) and green (Chlorophyta) seaweeds and 2 species of higher water plants (Embryophyta) from the Sea of Japan, as well as in 12 species of the abovecited taxa and 1 species of flowering plant from the Sea of Okhotsk. Iodine was determined by photometric extraction with brilliant green, and bromine by neutron activation of samples. Phaeophyta and Rhodophyta were richest in iodine and bromine content. Representatives of the order Ceramiales (Rhodophyta) had high iodine and bromine contents. Thus, iodine concentrations in Ptilota filicina, Campylaephora hypnaeoides andMyriogramme yezoensis, a new iodine concentrator discovered by us, amount to 0.42, 0.094 and 0.75%, respectively. Bromine content in representatives of the family Rhodomelaceae was 3.36 and 3.74% in Japan Sea and Okhotsk Sea Rhodomela larix, respectively. Polysiphonia japonica(Rhodomelaceae) is a newly discovered concentrator of bromine (3.20%). Many species of the order Laminariales (Phaeophyta) were characterized by high iodine contents: Laminaria japonica, L. cichoriodes, L. inclinatorhiza, Cymathaere japonica and Alaria marginata. The Br:I ratio for all the species except those that concentrated iodine, was more than 1. Seaweeds that grow at greater depths showed increased iodine and bromine contents. A tendency toward increased iodine content was observed in species growing further to the North. Iodine and bromine were accumulated selectively by various organs of Sargassum pallidum.

Edited by zorba990, 12 December 2013 - 01:46 AM.

[Hebbeh]

http://www.medicinen...rticlekey=18395

Iodine Excess

In making thyroid hormone, the body responds to increasing doses of iodine intake by first increasing hormone production and then decreasing production by blocking the incorporation of iodine into thyroid hormone. This blockage is protective. The body simply cannot allow all of the iodine received to turn into hormone without regulation. If this happened, there could be too much hormone produced, thereby resulting in toxic levels of thyroid hormone.

While this regulation is complicated, a decrease in the utilization of iodide is called the "Wolff-Chaikoff" effect. If a patient has an underlying problem with the thyroid gland, such as Hashimoto's disease or Graves' disease, this protective mechanism may actually be detrimental. In these cases, the gland already is diseased, and, on top of that, the Wolff-Chaikoff effect takes place. In such situations, a goiter can develop or hypothyroidism can occur if large amounts of iodide are given for long periods of time. The gland can sometimes overcome this effect by "escaping" or adapting in a successful way. In these cases, the blockage of hormone formation may be partially relieved and the patient can regain some thyroid function.

In large quantities, iodine can reduce the release of thyroid hormones from the thyroid gland. If the hormones are not released, their effects won't be seen. Occasionally, doctors use this mechanism to control very active thyroid glands that produce too much thyroid hormone. This type of therapy is difficult and is not used as commonly today. An excess of iodine also decreases the blood flow and growth of the thyroid gland, which is characteristic of Graves' disease. As a result, iodine may be used to reduce the thyroid hormone level in conjunction with surgery to remove some or all of the thyroid gland tissue and assure a good outcome.

While I've just explained how too much iodine exposure can actually shut down thyroid hormone production, in other situations, an excess of iodine may actually cause an over-production of thyroid hormone and hyperthyroidism.

If a person has been exposed to relatively little iodine and then consumes a diet rich in iodine, the individual can develop an excess production of thyroid hormone (iodine-induced hyperthyroidism). In general, this occurs in people who have an underlying thyroid disorder that has not yet manifested clinically. Iodine-induced hyperthyroidism is important in areas of the world where iodine intake is high. We actually see this quite commonly in the United States among populations who have emigrated from countries such as Iran and Africa. The name for this response is the " Jodbasedow" effect, which actually occurs only in a small fraction of people at risk. Even though it is relatively uncommon, it is important since administering iodine-containing dyes for medical procedures (such as CT scans, barium procedures, etc.) can trigger this effect.

[SGKen]

It's good to be disturbed. There are so many choices, limited time and money and you can't play with too many variables at once or you'll get confused and have to start over and hope you didn't break anything permanently. We have to choose to act on that which seems most important to our lives and what makes sense to us to try and choose not to act on things that don't.

I chose the path of (among other things) Iodine. I probably have a hundred (two hundred?) hours of reseach. It's obviously controversial. No one is an expert. That it doesn't fix everyone's thyroid means there are more things to learn about the thyroid. That it fixes some is amazing. It is helpful in sooo many things. There are several organs that concentrate Iodine, not just the thyroid. And, some prefer IodiNe and some prefer IodiDe. I want to make sure I have both available. Try looking at some of the links here for body systems this site knows about that are affected by Iodine:

http://iodineresearc...m/research.html

Most drugs are happy to get a 15-20% increase or decrease in what ever they are try to accomplish. But that's a relative measuremeant. If 10 out of 100,000 people die from a disease and a drug is given to all of them and only 8 of them die, they can say that there is a 20% decrease in death from that drug. WhooHoo, Big sucess! But, all 100,000 people have to take it to save two more lives. Not that big a deal unless you are one of the two it saved. How will you know? The rest of the 99998 (is my math right?) just spent a lot of money for no benefit ( and 8 of them died anyway). We are all betting that we are the one it saves somewhere down the road.

When you read a lot of forums, you may not have those kind of studies (thought there are some), it seems that quite a few folks have been helped but you don't know how many or how big the population is that is trying it. People with good reactions and bad reactions are both present. That's why we are here to help each other out.

That's why the Iodone Doctors have the closest thing to data we have except for the stuff prior to say 1950's.

Have you read all the reports on the Optomix site? How about all the information on the Iodine Research site? Those are only two. There is certainly a lot of repition and copy/pasting going on but you do find some good tid bits often with references on places like CureZone.

Yes, there is a conflict of interest for some of the doctors but what doctors these days aren't selling you something whether it is supplements for the more wholistic to the standard doctors who get perks from the drug companies. Anyway, a little wandering there.

To Hebbeh's comment: That came from a medical site and has the typical medical response. You will find the medical sites tend to be that way. You don't see any mention of how much Iodine or how long causes those effects, you don't see references to studies that prove that. You don't see references as to how important Selenium and the other companion nutrients are (though there are some studies that do show the importance of Selenium). So, I will agree that taking Iodine (in it's various forms) without consideration of the other factors could indeed cause those problems (and even if you do take all the cofactors, confusing hmm?). That's why you have to be serious about it and exercise due diligence. Look at the medical sites, see what they have to say. Look at the crazy sites, look at the moderate sites. Check them all. You can't gloss over something like this. It's not quite as complicated as making cookies but much more complicated than just taking a pill. You have to be aware of what can happen and be prepared for it. There are several places that cover how to take Iodine pretty well. Look up Iodine Protocol.

If you look up Potassium Iodide and Bronchitis you will find they still prescribe pretty hefty doses for it without any mention of detox. They use it as a contrast medium for X-Rays and CAT scans also at hefty doses (hopefully not the radioactive kind, Ugh!)

Most of the talk of over dose symptoms of Iodine are really detox symptoms of bromine. You can also look that up. Bromine detox symptoms. The first site that pops up is Breast Cancer Choices Org. Wonder why they would have that? A big list of symptoms...

So again, it's controversial and you have to decide yourself. Roll the dice and take your chances whether you decide to or not. But, if you don't then you also don't have any direct experience to go by. If it sounds too dangerous, then don't mess with it! A few folks do have problems with it.

Seen any ads on TV for drugs lately? "Yup, most of you won't pee your pants anymore, ah, what a relief!" BUT then a long list of nasty side effects including dying.

Ken

P.S, most serious Iodine Docs don't recommend seaweed or kelp unless you do know exactly what is in it. Which is a tough thing to know..

Ken

[zorba990]

It's good to be disturbed.
...
Most of the talk of over dose symptoms of Iodine are really detox symptoms of bromine. You can also look that up. Bromine detox symptoms. The first site that pops up is Breast Cancer Choices Org. Wonder why they would have that? A big list of symptoms...
...

P.S, most serious Iodine Docs don't recommend seaweed or kelp unless you do know exactly what is in it. Which is a tough thing to know..

Ken

The bromine detox assertion just doesn't hold water when coupled with the - high dose iodine based on jappanese sea vegetable consumption theory. (also high in bromine and most likely miscalculated on wet versus dry weight putting the iodine level back down to max 1mg with a bit less bromine)

People that do salt flushes should realize that they are likely just flushing out excess iodine. There seems to be quite a bit of misleading info on Curezone, and many many people using thyroid hormones (still or newly?) on the iodine forums. I'm concerned that some have harmed their thyroids through iodine overdose.

The dose makes the poison (or medicine). Happy medium.

[Hebbeh]

To Hebbeh's comment: That came from a medical site and has the typical medical response. You will find the medical sites tend to be that way. You don't see any mention of how much Iodine or how long causes those effects, you don't see references to studies that prove that.

It's ironic that you mention proof via scientific studies as all the "comments" and "opinions" you have posted are backed by absolutely no scientific studies but simply more comments and opinions from "iodine forums" and unscientific web sites simply promoting iodine for their own agenda's. Contrary, the information I posted from a true medical resource site is backed by scientific medical knowledge and true studies.

If you want the scientific truth backed by actual studies rather than anonymous forum anecdotes (at best), go to Pubmed and search "iodine excess hypothyroid". I have. There are too many actual studies to even began posting here but they all verify the information presented on the medical site I linked. (not surprisingly).

Everybody loves a conspiracy theory though.

[SGKen]

"The bromine detox assertion just doesn't hold water when coupled with the - high dose iodine based on japanese sea vegetable consumption theory. (also high in bromine and most likely miscalculated on wet versus dry weight putting the iodine level back down to max 1mg with a bit less bromine)"

I suspect (but can't prove) that taking them at the same time helps somehow. I would have to dig deeper to see if they have high urinary clearance of both Iodine and Bromine. It will probably be found (no study, just a guess on my part) that many Japanese will start to have rising levels of cancer (though it hasn't been proven as a cause effect relationship) since they will be getting the Bromine from the kelp and all the other "modern" sources we have. Not just foods BTW. and of course, they still get cancer, so having Iodine isn't proof against it...

People that do salt flushes should realize that they are likely just flushing out excess iodine. There seems to be quite a bit of misleading info on Curezone, and many many people using thyroid hormones (still or newly?) on the iodine forums. I'm concerned that some have harmed their thyroids through iodine overdose.

So, how do you explain that I can now take 200mg (without sea salt) and not have the symptoms if it was purely iodine overdose where as at 37.5mg I did have symptoms and needed the sea salt to relieve them. I am no more hypothyroid than I was before I started thyroid hormones. It was just another experiment to me. No where's near life critical levels of hypo.

Again, I was taking such high doses of Iodine for a specific reason, I will be dropping it to 50mg or less here shortly. Also, the SSKI I was taking the last wekk or so (around 600mg/day) was for bronchitis. That has resolved and I'll be stopping that as well.

About two thirds of the way down the page: http://www.optimox.c...D-11/IOD_11.htm

We have previously observed that some patients who experienced side effects while on orthoiodosupplementation excreted large amounts of bromide in the urine. Orthoiodosupplementation induced and increased mobilization of bromine from storage sites with increased urinary excretion of bromide ^(4,6,12). The halide bromide was measured in the serum and urine samples of the second loading test. Bromide levels were markedly elevated in the 24 hr urine collections, at 192 mg/24 hr, compared to 3-12 mg/24 hr reported in normal subjects ^(8,9). Serum bromide levels were markedly elevated with a baseline of 141 mg/L, with post-iodine load values as high as 202 mg/L (Fig. 3). The renal clearance of bromide in adult subjects not ingesting large amount of chloride is around 1 L/24 hr. Therefore, the 24 hr urine bromide levels at steady state conditions should be equal to the amount of bromide in one liter of serum. The levels of bromide in serum and urine were some 20 times higher than expected in normal subjects. Since chloride increases renal clearance of bromide ^(10,11), she was placed on sodium chloride (Celtic Sea Salt) at 10 gms per day for one week. After one day on chloride, urine bromide levels increased to 530 mg/24 hr and after the seventh day to 760 mg/24 hr. With a daily average excretion of 530 + 760 / 2 = 645 mg, she excreted 645 x 7 = 4515 mg of bromide during that week. Her serum bromide level after seven days on the chloride load decreased markedly to 43.2 mg/L, from a pre-chloride load of 141 mg/L. Since orthoiodosupplementation increases markedly urine excretion of bromide ^(4,6,12), it is likely that the patient's total body bromine content was much higher prior to starting the iodine supplementation. This patient was not taking a bromide-containing medication. Her elevated serum and urine bromide levels are most likely from a dietary source.


Ken

[SGKen]

Not sure what happened to my last reply... Putting it in again hoping I'm not spamming anyone. One more time.

It's ironic that you mention proof via scientific studies as all the "comments" and "opinions" you have posted are backed by absolutely no scientific studies but simply more comments and opinions from "iodine forums" and unscientific web sites simply promoting iodine for their own agenda's. Contrary, the information I posted from a true medical resource site is backed by scientific medical knowledge and true studies.

If you want the scientific truth backed by actual studies rather than anonymous forum anecdotes (at best), go to Pubmed and search "iodine excess hypothyroid". I have. There are too many actual studies to even began posting here but they all verify the information presented on the medical site I linked. (not surprisingly).

Everybody loves a conspiracy theory though.


Indeed! Good conspiracies!

Basically, one can find a study to prove and disprove almost everything even if you never leave the medical community and never visit a forum, hence the controversy. One day a medical study shows Vitamin E at 400iu or more is cancer protective. Soon, another medical study says it's not but will increase your risk of prostate cancer. Did they run their studies with the full range of the 8 variations of Vitamin E? Nope, just the standard Alpha Tocopherol. The corn industry says that high fructose corn syrup is the same as sugar and won't hurt you. Others have shown it is connected with obesity and type 2 diabeties. Who ya gonna believe. It is the same with drugs. How about thalidomide. I'm sure it had studies showing how good and safe it was. Or today, statins. Many doctors think it should be in our drinking water it's so good for us and yet there are many studies that don't show anything resembling an improvement in overall mortality. Look at the list of side effects for it. You won't find me taking it.....

Suppose there was a study of Aspirin that used 20mg for pain and inflammation. They would likely conclude that aspirin isn't an effective anti inflammatory or useful for pain management. In the same vein, testing Vitamin C at 500mg for colds won't show any value, hence Vitamin C can't possibly help with a cold, there's a study that proves it! Try a gram an hour and see what happens to your cold. If you hit bowel tolerance, slow it down. Only a personal study is needed. Oh, wait, that's an overdose, the study said so. If Linus Pauling was still alive, you could have tried telling him that one. Studies aren't the end all and be all...

As was previously mentioned, the dose makes the poison but I'll add that the dose also makes the medicine. Trying to find it is the tricky part. The experts aren't always right in spite of their studies.

The human body is amazingly complex and we really know so little about it and how much of something is good or bad but we still have to move in some direction to try to gain that understanding. Sometimes it's the wrong one. Even with studies to back it up. Sometimes it's the right one, even without studies.

At some point you have to say, it's time to try or it's time to let it go. I believe this study and I don't believe that study. That was good science, this was poor science. That had confounding factors, on and on. Anecdotal evidence has a place and must be balanced against the controversial studies but it all comes down to your choice and my choice. I know, I know, we should put all our faith and trust in the folks who are now the 3rd leading cause of death in this country because they are the experts at understanding the studies.

Debating about it isn't likely to change your mind or mine unless one of us presents what the other considers compelling evidence. That could take a long long time. As you say, there is a lot of evidence against. I have found quite a bit myself. To me, there is also a fair body of evidence for it. We still have to make up our individual minds about it.

In spite of all the studies, this thread started because someone had a wonderful reaction to Iodine. Rather than try it yourself, you have all kinds of theories about how it couldn't possibly be that simple. Scurvy was cured by the simple and humble lime... Easy for us to understand now but it was likely a horribly way to die before that understanding occured.

At some point it gets tiring, yes?

Ah, must mean it's time for bed.

Night all,
Ken

[Gerrans]

Good points, Ken. One has to take a risk, or one will try hardly anything. One will end up maybe taking one multivitamin, but without iron, copper, or whatever. This approach protects us from deficiencies but does little more.

I try my own version of the orthomolecular approach, which accommodates much higher than officially recommended doses for several things. But I do retain some caution and try to find the smallest dose that I think will do me good. For example, I am convinced that niacinamide and niacin are good for me, because I get cold easily and they have really helped against that. So I am experimenting to find the smallest amounts that will warm me up. I take on board suggestions that niacinamide might speed aging, but I do not go the whole hog--as some people on here have done--and give up niacin altogether on the offchance it might make me die sooner. I also take more than the recommended amount of vitamin C; but at the same time I do not go overboard and consume barrel-loads of it. One has to find one's own balance between risk and caution.

Edited by Gerrans, 12 December 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[SGKen]

Thanks Gerrans.

Links to research not done by the Iodine Docs on the impact of halogens on the thyroid
(if it works.., have I hit 10 messages yet?)

http://iodineresearc...en_halogen.html

[BioFreak]

Oh my god. 300mg of lugols per day. And from what I can tell, without an antioxidant like vitamin c... DON'T TRY THOSE CRAZY DOSAGES OF LUGOLS OR IODORAL! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe what I read here...

There is a BIG confusion about dosages of different forms of iodine, so let me break it down for you:

Elemental iodine is highly reactive to cells (just read what niner posted). Normally, iodine gets quickly converted into iodide before it enters the bloodsteam. This is the only way the body transports elemental iodine, as iodide ion. HOWEVER... if the dosage of elemental iodine is high enough, the human antioxidant system will NOT be strong enough, resulting in elemental iodine floating around in the bloodstream. This not only depletes your body of antioxidants (and building blocks needed to build them, of course), it also HARMS your internal organs. The first ones to go will be the most sensitive to oxidative damage, such as the macula of the eye. I've posted this before, that at sufficiently high dosages elemental iodine will be a sure way to get BLIND. Also, you will damage your digestive tract with high dosages of lugols(or worse, pure elemental iodine). Thats not a theory, thats a fact.

Potassium iodide on the other hand is not reactive on it's own, and THIS is the form that was widely prescribed in the 19th century in up to gram ranges. In dosages this high, it has problems on its own, of course.

Luguls is a combination of elemental iodine and potassium iodide. This means lugols is not something you want to dose high. What you could dose higher is SSKI (saturated solution of potassium iodide) since it does not contain elemental iodine. Another way to get around elemental iodines high reactivity is to add vitamin c to the solution before you drink it, so it loses its brownish color. Once it's gone, there is only the iodide ion left, which is still unbound, but not reactive anymore.

So what about the toxicology of iodide ion? I don't know, but it should be much better then that of elemental iodine, possibly be worse then that of potassium iodide though.

Let me repeat: Dosages of lugols, elemental iodine, or any product that contains elemental iodine this high or higher will most likely damage your digestive tract and lead to damage of internal organs, first of all the macula of the eye. The higher the dosage, the higher the chances that you will succeed in damaging your body. Permanently. There will be no going back. Elemental iodine has a completely different toxicology then potassium iodide, and when someone talks about high dosages being used in the past in practice in the past centuries without side effects this serious(higher then 100mg), it was potassium iodide only.

Seriously, I am oriented more "pro high dose iodine", but this is just insanity. I am just waiting for the first people crying on the internet that they have gone blind with too high dosages of elemental iodine/lugols, And whats happening then? Everyone will be crying "evil iodine", while its just some folks who simply could not dose right. Shame.

For your information: Much of the bad view on iodine comes from dangerous forms of iodine, such as: high dose elemental iodine(!), radioactive iodine forms, fat bound iodine forms.

I'm on 100mg of lugols again. And I feel great. But I always add some vitamin c so that all elemental iodine turned into iodide ion, and does not stress my bodies anti oxidant defense. And I would not go higher, unless I had pure potassium iodide. People tend to forget that Abraham's work is based on 12,5mg to 50mg total iodine/day, and brownstein uses only up to 100mg iodine in breast cancer patients (can't speak for other conditions such as hashimotos).

So what exactly is the reason for using high dose lugols (=high dosage elemental iodine)? It sure as hell can't be studies. It sure as hell can't be historical usage as well.

So I see only 2 categories:
1. Megadosing of xy because "someone had to do it" <- classic way to get nominated for the darwin award
2. I've read it on: a forum / website / put unreliable source of your choice here

None of these reasons is a good choice.

Sorry for my rant. But someone has to be the voice of sanity here and guide people who read this thread before they hurt themselves and fall into category 2.

[BioFreak]

In their pure elemental form, all the elements are electrically neutral, meaning that the number of electrons (-) in the atom is the same as the number of protons (+). If you add an electron to iodine ("reduce" it; the opposite of "oxidation", which is removal of electrons), then you get iodide, which is a negative ion. All of the halogens are very hungry for electrons, which is to say that they are powerful oxidizing agents. Once they get the electron they want, they become stable negative ions. Elemental iodine isn't specifically an antibiotic in the classical sense of only being toxic to bacteria. It's more of a biocide, like chlorine, in that it will attack random biomolecules in order to get the electron it wants. Iodine can be used as a disinfectant because humans can withstand a dose that would kill a bacterium, but iodine also harms us a bit in the process. Iodide is benign. The other halogens are similar- chlorine is a toxic biocide, while chloride is a necessary mineral.

Thanks for the scientific correct (and easy to undestand) explanation, niner.

It would be easy to avoid the oxidant nature of iodine by using iodide instead, but there's a possible problem with that- There are some reactions that work better with iodine than with iodide. Specifically, addition of iodine to an unsaturated fatty acid, forming an iodolactone. These molecules may have something to do with iodine effects, particularly in breast health.

Yes I have heard about this before, but here is the thing: The body converts elemental iodine into iodide ion as soon as possible because thats the preferred version for transport in the blood stream. Makes sense, since the body is always trying to avoid oxidant damage which would be the case with elemental iodine. But where does elemental iodine then get formed to iodolactone? In the intestinal tract, before absorption? Or, asked differently, is the elemental form of iodine needed to form iodolactone? Maybe the body has some metabolic pathway to form iodolactone from iodide ion. That would make more sense. After all, iodide ion should be different in its properties then potassium iodide.

Interestingly, iodolactone seems to be produced in the thyroid, too?
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2163315

This study says iodolactone does inhibit growth and apoptosis in breast cancer cells:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20363723

Interesting, I thought iodine/iodide had this property on it's own. But this is, at least in part, not the case(the mysterious iodine receptors come into mind, where I, too, could not find any evidence of their existence yet.)

It might be the case, although I have no evidence to back it up, that we could meet most of our iodine needs with iodide, and use a small enough amount of elemental iodine that we don't have a problem with the oxidative effects, yet still get the benefits. Has anyone ever messed around with the formula of Lugol's, varying the ratio of iodine to iodide?

I think we have to differentiate between iodide ion and potassium iodide. Both may be used in the body by different processes(in theory, any metabolic process that needs iodide, would need one step more if it first had to extract iodide from potassium iodide, right?). It seems highly unlikely that elemental iodine has an active role in the human body. For one, elemental iodine itself can not be found in the world naturally, ever, because it is so reactive. So why should the body have metabolic processes in place to use elemental iodine, if it was not available in human evolution - at all?

Also, elemental iodine gets converted into iodide ion very quickly, and is the only way iodine on its own(meaning: not as a molecule such as potassium iodide) gets transported in the blood stream. The body simply does not want to have reactive substances floating around uncontrolled in it. So it is much more likely that iodide ion is the substance that is used, is it not? And this means it is extremely unlikely that elemental iodine from low doses(with low, I am talking about lets say 12,5mg) (therefore no oxidative effects) of lugols or iodoral get very far in the body before being converted into it's iodide ion form. So to have any effect from elemental iodine without it getting converted into iodide, high dosages would have to be used.

And this would mean that the body would have to deal with oxidative stress from excess elemental iodine. At the very least it would lower the bodies antioxidant capability, but we would also risk oxidative damage where we do not want to have it, because we can not control where it reacts.

Thoughts?

[SGKen]

Oh my god. 300mg of lugols per day. And from what I can tell, without an antioxidant like vitamin c... DON'T TRY THOSE CRAZY DOSAGES OF LUGOLS OR IODORAL! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry for my rant. But someone has to be the voice of sanity here and guide people who read this thread before they hurt themselves and fall into category 2.

I'm sorry you missed some things when you read my posts.

This was a thread about the value of iodine, not a users guide. There was a previous post that linked to essentially a user guide that covers just the bases you are concerned about.

I mentioned it two places about taking Companion Nutrients. Those includes Vitamin C, selenium, magnesium and sea salt. I take 4 grams of timed release C in divided doses.

I mentioned how I took Lugol's as high as 100mg in 12 oz of water over several hours. Undiluted, Lugol's would indeed be dangerous. Since it's Lugol's, a 100mg dose would have about 33mg of elemental iodine. At a total dose of 300mg/day, about 100mg of elemental iodine over the course of a day, not all at once and always diluted and always with the above mentioned companion nutrients.

For treating cancer, it is mentioned on several web sites that (done properly with all the precautions) that 50 to 300mg per day is not a problem.

For those that are interested, I do recommend that you look up iodine protocol to find the safe and correct methods of using iodine. (I mentioned that in a previous post as well...)

Ok? Hope that helps.

Ken