399 replies to this topic

[socialpiranha]

Yeah i planned on making a new thread once everyone receives theirs so we can all report on it.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

I would speculate if it is having such a profoundly pronounced effect on depression in under a week's time there must be a relatively significant contribution from improvement upon other neurobiological pathways other than simply enhanced TrkB/BDNF expression.

Perhaps I missed some prior conjectures. Perhaps it is dopaminergic tone?

[Puppeteer]

Any updates SP?

[socialpiranha]

I would speculate if it is having such a profoundly pronounced effect on depression in under a week's time there must be a relatively significant contribution from improvement upon other neurobiological pathways other than simply enhanced TrkB/BDNF expression.

Perhaps I missed some prior conjectures. Perhaps it is dopaminergic tone?

There are several factors at play including protection of dopamine neurons and increased dopamine release

Any updates SP?

In terms of delivery still waiting on the full shipment

in terms of personal experience with the sample i feel great, i've been able to keep up on my personal hygiene, keep my living space clean and organized and workout.That may not sound like much but i had been just laying around in my own filth basically ha

[Puppeteer]

Great to hear dude. I'm seeking to improve similarly dysfunctional aspects of my lifestyle, so hopefully I'll have a similar experience. Have you described your personal experience and what you're looking to improve in more detail anywhere on here that I could read?

[socialpiranha]

Not really in depth no just bits and pieces here and there. My core symptoms are pretty common around here though, anhedonia, cognitive problems, social anxiety and dp/dr

[Puppeteer]

Did anything trigger the development of your symptoms?

[neuroatypicow]

yeah me too, i'm in the same lifeboat as you guys. intractable depression and GAD/SA, with anhedonia, cognitive impairment, with tics that are more pronounced the stressier i get. i'm glad to hear SP, that you've been elevated enough to function at that level; it's a good sign.

is the mechanism through which this operates likely to be permanent (barring further stressors/disasters/crises), or will this just yield relief only for as long as it's taken? the papers i've read further back in these threads didn't clarify that (at least not to my jell-O-ified brain)?

[celebes]

Really good to hear man.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

I would speculate if it is having such a profoundly pronounced effect on depression in under a week's time there must be a relatively significant contribution from improvement upon other neurobiological pathways other than simply enhanced TrkB/BDNF expression.

Perhaps I missed some prior conjectures. Perhaps it is dopaminergic tone?

There are several factors at play including protection of dopamine neurons and increased dopamine release

Thanks SP
I have not had the opportunity to thoroughly examine the studies relates to this substrate and the related cogeners. I did not catch anything speciific to dopamine release that i recall.
Protection of dopamine neurons usually is a good long term benefit, but very insignificantly involved in any significant rapid initial onset of effects. Notably, a nice little dopaminergic boost usually never hurts mood, lol ...If you have the opportunity, please post the excerpt(s) you have seen regarding the dopamine releaser properties. It would as well be appreciated to do so for any other pathways within the research that would potentially account in a significant manner toward an initial rapid onset 'mood/functional enhancement'. I'll try to make time to do so myself as well

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 01 March 2014 - 06:00 PM.

[celebes]

Sleep is very significantly involved in significant rapid initial onset of effects via protection of dopamine neurons (among others). 7,8-DHF's MOA is similar: neurotrophic.

Edited by celebes, 01 March 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

Sleep is very significantly involved in significant rapid initial onset of effects via protection of dopamine neurons (among others). 7,8-DHF's MOA is similar: neurotrophic.

While a good night's sleep never hurts, I have never heard of a few good night's sleep creating some highly significant change in a challenged mental state as to any extent so attributable to this compound. There are so many other substrates that have a relatively significant pro-neurotrophic/pro-dopamingeric capacity; some of which are very common and have been used in various psychoneurobiological manners for several years. Many as well have some effect on enhanced mood and function, but it is generally not that profound. Selegiline comes most immediately to mind. Certainly a worthwhile substrate, however, I do believe we are affording the potential capacity of 7,8-DHF to encompass far more profound effects perhaps; or we would all go with that which is so readily available.

If it were as simple as sleep we would all be searching for the latest, greatest sleep enhancement aid with minimally adverse side effects Such are certainly worthwhile and I have R&D'd quite a few myself, however, they are not going to foster any revolution in regards to rapid onset mental health enhancement, lol This agent was primarily being investigated for its anticipated profound and rapid effect on mental health.

It is as such quite well-known and obvious that substrates with a neurotrophic capacity can be of some substantial aid, but I would not see the effect being of such a rapid, pronounced nature. Perhaps this pathways and manner of 'BDNFergicity' augmentation in general can be such, but I would certainly think this all warrants further speculation and investigation.

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 01 March 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[socialpiranha]

Probing the ability of presynaptic tyrosine kinase receptors to regulate striatal dopamine dynamics

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23642472

Edited by socialpiranha, 02 March 2014 - 01:04 AM.

[socialpiranha]

Sleep is very significantly involved in significant rapid initial onset of effects via protection of dopamine neurons (among others). 7,8-DHF's MOA is similar: neurotrophic.

sleep is definitely key in preventing neuronal death, a big part of why amphetamines do so much damage is because they inhibit sleep so glutamatergic excitotoxicity is left unchecked for long periods of time. During sleep the body switches from glutamate dominated to gaba dominated signalling iirc. Also certain psychological states(and resulting neurochemistry) can act in the same way as amphetamines. Interestingly body temperature also plays a huge part in neuronal death, if the body temperature is low enough amphetamines will not induce neurotoxicity.

Edited by socialpiranha, 02 March 2014 - 01:28 AM.

[celebes]

If it were as simple as sleep we would all be searching for the latest, greatest sleep enhancement aid with minimally adverse side effects :-) however, they are not going to foster any revolution in regards to rapid onset mental health enhancement, lol This agent was primarily being investigated for its anticipated profound and rapid effect on mental health.

If there was a compound that safely stimulated or simulated significantly increased BDNF, GDNF, NGF, melatonin, n-acetylserotononin, neurosteroid, endocannabinoid, endorphin, SOD, GSH, GH, IGF and testosterone production, CSF outflow, phosphatide synthesis and receptor resensitization, then I have no doubt my, your, and almost all humans', mental problems would disappear in short order. The problem is you're hearing 'sleep' and thinking 'hypnotics'.

[socialpiranha]

The only times in my life where i have felt happy and stable my sleep has also been stable and good quality, interestingly n-acetylserotonin and 7,8 dhf act very similarly in the brain they are both predominantly trkb agonists and two of only a handful that i know of. deoxygedunin is one that is not well known i just updated the trkb wiki page with it.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

If it were as simple as sleep we would all be searching for the latest, greatest sleep enhancement aid with minimally adverse side effects :-) however, they are not going to foster any revolution in regards to rapid onset mental health enhancement, lol This agent was primarily being investigated for its anticipated profound and rapid effect on mental health.

If there was a compound that safely stimulated or simulated significantly increased BDNF, GDNF, NGF, melatonin, n-acetylserotononin, neurosteroid, endocannabinoid, endorphin, SOD, GSH, GH, IGF and testosterone production, CSF outflow, phosphatide synthesis and receptor resensitization, then I have no doubt my, your, and almost all humans', mental problems would disappear in short order. The problem is you're hearing 'sleep' and thinking 'hypnotics'.

Actually, no, I am not at all thinking hypnotics; they are poor drugs as a whole. I have been privy to private, unpublished research on sleep-inducing non-hypnotics that improve overall sleep architecture. Yet, I still do not believe anyone will see a miracle here as to some form of overall mental health panacea.\

Indeed positive regulation in a safe manner of many of those pathways and chemical/neurochemical is favorable. However, I believe your thought process as a whole in general is a bit misguided at the core level.

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 02 March 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

The only times in my life where i have felt happy and stable my sleep has also been stable and good quality, interestingly n-acetylserotonin and 7,8 dhf act very similarly in the brain they are both predominantly trkb agonists and two of only a handful that i know of. deoxygedunin is one that is not well known i just updated the trkb wiki page with it.

Cause or effect?
A superior underlying mental health state itself will always equate to superior sleep

Note most all syndromes/state have some nature of a negative reinforcing cycle (vicious cycle) or positive reinforcing cycle ('avicious' cycle, lol; surely some good terminology for such may exist, or should, lol)

[Jbac]

Did you get the full batch yet?
edit: nvm didn't see there was a new page

Edited by Jbac, 03 March 2014 - 12:58 AM.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

As I recall the research displayed an oral efficacy, however SAR oral bioavailability predictions would denote an extremely low oral bioavailability that I would have hypothesized precludes oral viability - therein a contradiction. Just wished to indicate as it seems so profoundly innate. Note, all research, as professional and thorough as such may seem to be, does not always seem to pan out to seem as credible within further evaluations.
So just tossing this out there to digest lol

[socialpiranha]

What a disgusting display of meaningless word salad. There is no question as to it's bioavailability. ugh the arrogance and b.s in that post makes me want to puke no wonder you got banned.

[ElixirOfLife]

What a disgusting display of meaningless word salad. There is no question as to it's bioavailability. ugh the arrogance and b.s in that post makes me want to puke no wonder you got banned.

I'd have to disagree. His wording made sense to me. It's grammatically correct english.

His SAR predictions don't mean shit though.

Edited by ElixirOfLife, 04 March 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[Jbac]

Is that guy a bot?

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

What a disgusting display of meaningless word salad. There is no question as to it's bioavailability. ugh the arrogance and b.s in that post makes me want to puke no wonder you got banned.

My apologies to have so offended your sensibiilities, but I have witnessed prior compounds noted to appear to have oral bioavailability/oral efficacy in animal studies to appear to not to display oral efficacy in human trials (interspecies variance). I should have noted I was specifically referring to human oral bioavailability/efficacy and species variance. I did not note such distinctly as I assumed one would be aware I was referring to practical application as implied herein (oral human use). Variance of this nature is somewhat rare, but not something perhaps to be totally ignored.

I was only compelled to note such for this instance, as the oral bioavailabilities of structurally related compounds are so strikingly low. Hence, I just wanted to note such to create the awareness of what I believed may be a relevant issue. Perhaps the effective dosing of 7,8-DHF is of nM efficacy and as such may allow for oral effectiveness even with a very low absolute oral bioavailabiity.

Note, within the study of the given link below, the difference in what appears to be interspecies variability in oral effectiveness of a highly structurally related flavonoid, chrysin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19732493
Plasma concentrations of nitrofurantoin were increased in rats, but not mice, treated with oral chrysin, compared with untreated controls.

As 7,8-DHF appears to have very strong potential, I was making the conjecture to be prudent not to make ANY assumptions too hastily as to the actual manner of effect it will provide within human use. I do have high hopes here; hopefully there will be valid human bio-assays to indicate it indeed displays effectiveness within real world human use.
I'll try to think more positively

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 04 March 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[Jbac]

Clearly a bot, it's feeding off your posts and gathering facts from pubmed to generate a wall of text of semi-cogent crap. If enough people call it a bot it'll get mad and rant about how it's not a bot

[lourdaud]

Veritas: are you part of the group buy? If not, GTFO.

[tritium]

I would have to respectfully acquiesce that Veritas provides a valid argument in this instance. In previous group buys, such as the jdtic group buy, it is agreed that socialpiranha has been cherry picking evidence to support his group buys while ignoring important evidence, such as the safety of said compound brought up by others, which may impede the completion of his group buys.

[Jbac]

Well I guess now we know who's pulling the strings on the VI bot, don't we?

[socialpiranha]

I would have to respectfully acquiesce that Veritas provides a valid argument in this instance. In previous group buys, such as the jdtic group buy, it is agreed that socialpiranha has been cherry picking evidence to support his group buys while ignoring important evidence, such as the safety of said compound brought up by others, which may impede the completion of his group buys.

I actually almost stopped the jdtic group buy because of the information you brought up, other group members convinced me it was in fact safe. I do my best to play the devils advocate in terms of safety and potential benefit of a substance. I can be a bit paranoid at times and you were affected by that and i apologize but don't mistake your dislike for me for evidence that i'm wrong. Veritas is great with words but what he said doesn't actually say anything definitive he is just skilled at making his opinion sound like fact.

There is no evidence of a bioavalability issue. There is no innate contradiction to be aware of. Everyone already knows about the placebo response,

[socialpiranha]

As I recall the research displayed an oral efficacy, however SAR oral bioavailability predictions would denote an extremely low oral bioavailability that I would have hypothesized precludes oral viability - therein a contradiction. Just wished to indicate as it seems so profoundly innate. Note, all research, as professional and thorough as such may seem to be, does not always seem to pan out to seem as credible within further evaluations.
So just tossing this out there to digest lol

let me rephrase this in plain english.

As i recall research displays oral bioavailability, however i predict that it has low bioavailibility so thats an obvious contradiction. Things don't always work out how you think they might.