693 replies to this topic

[Overman]

Will reply re niagen etc with more info later tonight. Until then: we need someone with experience (post count & (ideally) group buy experience). Dstein and I both have interest and ability (presumably) but do not have either qualifications.

If there is someone who is willing to assist in the initial process and if we can figure out a way to verify identity and protect everyone's investment then we are good to go (not the easiest thing ever). Obviously the op & scienceguy are proper candidates for the whole thing, and there are plenty of other appropriate people, so let's hope someone can step up the legitimacy factor here.

[BigPapaChakra]

Depending on all the variables I may be in.

I'd like to say that on another forum a bunch of people started using this compound and there are somethings to take into consideration:

Many had drastically increased 'mental energy' and mood, some of which were healthy, and some had problems like CFS. One user noted that after a few days, his energy instantly dropped for apparently no reason. He stopped taking the compound and after a few days his energy/cognition returned to the levels of when he was actually on NR (perhaps some cellular changes occurred?). He started up again and noticed great results from supplementing half or less of his original dose, and many other users did the same. If I'm not mistaken, these doses were in the low hundreds of milligrams. A lot of people seem to think that an increased need for both calories and carbs are needed due to its effects on cellular bioenergetics. Just something to keep in mind. It may be prudent to experiment with low doses first, and possibly increase your food consumption.

[OpaqueMind]

Thanks for the heads up BigPapa! Which forum are you referring to?.. I wouldn't mind checking their reports out.

I remember reading someones speculations that NAD+ might be recycled in the body, so if that's the case it shouldn't be necessary to supplement everyday and with such high doses as those suggested by scaling from rat dosages (~3.5g). The increased food consumption also makes a lot of sense.

I have some Niagen heading my way, couldn't resist testing the waters before making a heavier investment, at least in terms of weight... for the price of 2 bottles, which is a total of 120 capsules at 125mg per capsule, or ~$100 for 15 grams, you can get, assuming it is actually NR, 1000 grams. That is a mark-up of 6666%.

[Nattzor]

Thanks for the heads up BigPapa! Which forum are you referring to?.. I wouldn't mind checking their reports out.

Private forum with a focus on peptides.

I remember reading someones speculations that NAD+ might be recycled in the body, so if that's the case it shouldn't be necessary to supplement everyday and with such high doses as those suggested by scaling from rat dosages (~3.5g). The increased food consumption also makes a lot of sense.

NAD+ and NADH is like ATP and ADP afaik, so it should be recycled, or did you mean in some other way?

[OpaqueMind]

Private forum with a focus on peptides.

NAD+ and NADH is like ATP and ADP afaik, so it should be recycled, or did you mean in some other way?

Ah, damn. Is there a guest list?

Yeah I meant in that way... if it can be recycled once, does that mean it can theoretically be recycled indefinitely? Or does it randomly fall apart at some point?

[uralsky]

Count me in too, if the price is right

[bug]

Count me in too. Thanks

[OpaqueMind]

Hey guys, it would be helpful if you included the amount you want as well. The quoted price is around $100-$200 per kilo so far, providing we get enough buyers in. So far there seems to be quite a lot of interest, so I don't think that'll be a problem.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Here is a decent list of potential suppliers. How to tell the good from the bad I'm not sure.

I found a supplier that can deliver a 25kg drum of the stuff for a reasonable price. The problem is 25kg is waaaaay too much for me. Also they don’t accept PayPal. Furthermore I never done business with them so I don’t know if they are reliable. But I asked around a lot and it’s a real company with a good reputation. And lastly I never arranged a group buy so I wouldn't be the right person to arrange such a thing. Perhaps I can arrange to package the stuff in 1kg sealed bags so someone can send those to group buy participants. I think the price would be between 100$ and 150$ a kilo. BUt it might be cheaper. Also I received labanalysis that confirm a purity of 99%.

Hey rumpel, could you send us a link to your supplier so someone who is willing to lead this buy can get the ball rolling? Also, do they deliver anything less than 25kg, in case this thing doesn't go through?

Hey Opaque, I won't share suppliers on a public forum, it’s not discreet. As I’m having a long standing relationship with those suppliers; I cannot risk to damage it. I hope you understand this.
Furthermore they only deliver a minimum of 25kg. Which they call a “sample”. Most of their customers order larger quantities like 600 or a 1000kg. Cheers.

[OpaqueMind]

Hey Opaque, I won't share suppliers on a public forum, it’s not discreet. As I’m having a long standing relationship with those suppliers; I cannot risk to damage it. I hope you understand this.
Furthermore they only deliver a minimum of 25kg. Which they call a “sample”. Most of their customers order larger quantities like 600 or a 1000kg. Cheers.

Hey no problem man, I understand the need for discretion.

25kg, that's the biggest sample I ever heard of! They can't really call that a sample... like, if some guy says to you, 'do you wanna sample my wares?', then he goes off and backs up a lorry full of his 'wares' up to your house, you're gonna be like WTF dude, I just wanted a sample.

Anyway, so far I count approximately 28 buyers, maybe more with some on the fence currently. The general consensus seems to be in for a kg, so that's about 30kg so far. No doubt there are more people who will want to throw in. Now we just need someone to be the mediator. I'd ask you rumpel because they're your contact, but since you're a relatively new user here maybe it should be someone with more established credentials.

[megatron]

Are you willing to lead the group buy OpaqueMind? We should also check if the suppliers agree on weighing in and shipping each participant's part individually, so that one person doesn't get a massive workload of doing this himself. Otherwise, I think maybe we could have like three-four persons weighing it in and shipping it.

[Virtual Reality]

Nice that we get this group buy going

Are you willing to lead the group buy OpaqueMind? We should also check if the suppliers agree on weighing in and shipping each participant's part individually, so that one person doesn't get a massive workload of doing this himself. Otherwise, I think maybe we could have like three-four persons weighing it in and shipping it.

Yes , good points. But i dont think the company itself will ship to 30 people tbh.
It would be nice if they could ship to 3 or 4 people as you mentioned, in different regions of the world.
For example one memBer of this board volunteers to distribute, for example we would have a distributor in Europe and in the USA.


And also what is the minimum order quantity for a individual?

Edited by alex921, 15 January 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

Well I'm quite busy with finals at the moment, but if it came down to it I would be willing as long as it comes in separate 1 kilogram bags. Weighing out and bagging single kilos from an XXkg amount is a task I have neither the time nor the equipment for.

Maybe we could have someone from europe and someone from america receive separate packages? If I only had to deal with european distribution then I wouldn't mind doing that. I'm sure if they're willing to synthesise such a huge amount they would be fine with shipping it to various places.

[megatron]

Nice that we get this group buy going

Are you willing to lead the group buy OpaqueMind? We should also check if the suppliers agree on weighing in and shipping each participant's part individually, so that one person doesn't get a massive workload of doing this himself. Otherwise, I think maybe we could have like three-four persons weighing it in and shipping it.

Yes , good points. But i dont think the company itself will ship to 30 people tbh.
It would be nice if they could ship to 3 or 4 people as you mentioned, in different regions of the world.
For example one memBer of this board volunteers to distribute, for example we would have a distributor in Europe and in the USA.


And also what is the minimum order quantity for a individual?

Can't we just say 1kg standard? This would last for a long time, and the price is fairly cheap for such a promising compound. Like OpaqueMind says the manufacturer should be able to ship 1kg bags.

Edited by Megatrone, 15 January 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I just asked the supplier if they can package it in 1kg air sealed bags. I'm oke with Opaque leading the group buy.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

The supplier can pack it into 1kg bags and send it to different addresses. It costs around 100$ for 1kg. Shipping to Europe cost 75$ and US 70$. That makes it around 175$ for EUROPE and 170$ for US. They only accept T/T and Western Union. So if someone (Opaque) can arrange a group buy trough PayPal and then make the money transfer and mail the address list to the supplier. We're done. I prefer discussing this in a private group, because discretion is necessary. As I'm not yet a Longecity member, and I’m new to this, I cannot create such a group.

Edited by Rumpelstiltskin, 15 January 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[zen]

I understand that price will be around $200-$300/kg, if so please count me in for 1kg. Thanks.

[Nattzor]

I'm only interested in sub kg amounts if anyone want to share. (100-300g preferably if cost is $100 / kg).

[zen]

The supplier can pack it into 1kg bags and send it to different addresses. It costs around 100$ for 1kg. Shipping to Europe cost 75$ and US 70$. That makes it around 175$ for EUROPE and 170$ for US. They only accept T/T and Western Union. So if someone (Opaque) can arrange a group buy trough PayPal and then make the money transfer and mail the address list to the supplier. We're done. I prefer discussing this in a private group, because discretion is necessary. As I'm not yet a Longecity member, and I’m new to this, I cannot create such a group.

If the supplier is doing all the packaging and shipment the only method to test the content would be for each of us to do the separate testing I guess.

Edited by zen, 15 January 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[Nattzor]

Ah, damn. Is there a guest list?

Yeah I meant in that way... if it can be recycled once, does that mean it can theoretically be recycled indefinitely? Or does it randomly fall apart at some point?

From my basic understanding of everything:

Glycolysis (not the whole, just relevant part): glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate2- + Pi2- + NAD+ -> 1,3-bisphosphoglycerate4- + NADH + H+ x2 (assuming aerobic, if anaerobic it gets recylced directly.

Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Complex (not the whole, just relevant part): FADH2 + NAD+ -> NADH + H+

Citric acid cycle (not the whole, just relevant part): Isocitrate + CoA-SH + α-Ketoglutarate + L-Malate + 3NAD+ -> Oxalosuccinate + 3NADH + 3H+ + Succinyl-CoA + CO2 Oxaloacetate

But then it goes to the electron transport chain where NADH become NAD+ + H+ (through complex I (NADH dehydrogenase)) by reducing flavin mononucleotide.

The NAD+ is then recycled within the mitochondria, not sure about the cytoplasma. I'm guessing we have other electron-acceptors in the cytoplasma.

tl;dr, does get recycled, idk how many times. From memory, ATP is used about 30 times before becoming AMP and degraded more, I would guess the same thing goes for NAD+ (not sure at all, gonna get another mate to ask at his uni). But nicotinamide riboside is probably not only useful for that, but helps mithochondrial signaling.

Edited by Nattzor, 15 January 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[smithx]

I can do GC/MS testing, however there's nothing to prevent a supplier from sending a good sample for testing, then sending bad product.

By the way, what about getting nicotinamide mononucleotide (CAS 1094-61-7) instead? I don't think the price is much different, and it is far more potent (assuming it is not broken down when taken via the oral route).

[BigPapaChakra]

Ah, damn. Is there a guest list?

Yeah I meant in that way... if it can be recycled once, does that mean it can theoretically be recycled indefinitely? Or does it randomly fall apart at some point?

From my basic understanding of everything:

Glycolysis (not the whole, just relevant part): glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate2- + Pi2- + NAD+ -> 1,3-bisphosphoglycerate4- + NADH + H+ x2 (assuming aerobic, if anaerobic it gets recylced directly.

Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Complex (not the whole, just relevant part): FADH2 + NAD+ -> NADH + H+

Citric acid cycle (not the whole, just relevant part): Isocitrate + CoA-SH + α-Ketoglutarate + L-Malate + 3NAD+ -> Oxalosuccinate + 3NADH + 3H+ + Succinyl-CoA + CO2 Oxaloacetate

But then it goes to the electron transport chain where NADH become NAD+ + H+ (through complex I (NADH dehydrogenase)) by reducing flavin mononucleotide.

The NAD+ is then recycled within the mitochondria, not sure about the cytoplasma. I'm guessing we have other electron-acceptors in the cytoplasma.

tl;dr, does get recycled, idk how many times. From memory, ATP is used about 30 times before becoming AMP and degraded more, I would guess the same thing goes for NAD+. But nicotinamide riboside is probably not only useful for that, but helps mithochondrial signaling.

Nice synopsis - I can tell I'm starting to understand more biology since I'm understanding that for the most part. As you speculated, it does aid in mitochondrial signalling, particularly in a PGC-1a/b independent way, as well as fueling sirtuins, AND protecting against a so called "psuedohypoxic state" that occurs during aging (has something to do with HIF-1a, I'm not sure on the mechanisms, but LLLT affects HIF so that's interesting). This is why I was wondering if there were permanent/semi-permanent cellular bioenergetic changes in the users I was speaking about earlier (hence why when they stopped the supplement for a few days to regain energy, their energy increased even further while not taking any amount of NR).

I can do GC/MS testing, however there's nothing to prevent a supplier from sending a good sample for testing, then sending bad product.

By the way, what about getting nicotinamide mononucleotide (CAS 1094-61-7) instead? I don't think the price is much different, and it is far more potent (assuming it is not broken down when taken via the oral route).

If we could get nicotinamide mononucleotide it would be better - NR phosphorylates into NM, so we'd be skipping the whole phosphorylation step, which, if you think about it, probably consumes cellular energy in and of itself, thus we'd be "gaining" even more. Is it possible to obtain NM? As far as I know no dietary sources of NM have been found and it is often debated where/how it's found in the body, hence why NR was made because that's currently the best way to create NM. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to start understanding all this from a more objective, scientific point of view, and don't want to get ahead of myself, haha.

[OpaqueMind]

The supplier can pack it into 1kg bags and send it to different addresses. It costs around 100$ for 1kg. Shipping to Europe cost 75$ and US 70$. That makes it around 175$ for EUROPE and 170$ for US. They only accept T/T and Western Union. So if someone (Opaque) can arrange a group buy trough PayPal and then make the money transfer and mail the address list to the supplier. We're done. I prefer discussing this in a private group, because discretion is necessary. As I'm not yet a Longecity member, and I’m new to this, I cannot create such a group.

Nice job dude

When they say different addresses, do they mean 30+ different addresses or 3-4? To be honest, that's a decent price for international shipping of a kilogram, we'd be paying about the same for international delivery from our respective intermediate locations, except it would be more work for those involved in distribution. I'm down with that.

I'd need to see if I can set up a T/T and Western Union account and such, I'll be free on friday so I'll look into it then. I'm not a member, so I can't create a private group either.

Also, does anyone know the oral bioavailability of NR vs NMN? In the studies I've seen they always injected NMN directly into the brains of the test subjects.

Also, Nattzor, I don't speak Chemicalese, but thanks for trying. It doesn't really mean anything unless one has a solid grasp of Biochemistry

Edited by OpaqueMind, 15 January 2014 - 06:04 PM.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Nicotinamide mononucleotide (CAS 1094-61-7) is more unstable. It needs to be stored at -20 Celsius. Also its way more expensive. I don’t know much about this compound so I will look into this. But for now Nicotinamide Riboside seems more practical and less expensive.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

As I made a deal with the supplier I can only arrange 25kg at 80$/kg. Everybody also needs to pay 75$ for shipping. Which means 145$ for a kilo (shipping included). 145*25= $3625,- total.
When I order more than 25kg; the cost will be 100$/kg. So the first 24 (25 with me included) in this group buy will be paying 145$ for 1kg with shipping included. After that the price will be 175$ with shipping included. I’m still negotiating with the supplier. When Opaque takes the lead I will talk it through with him.

[Dstein]

I prefer discussing this in a private group, because discretion is necessary. As I'm not yet a Longecity member, and I’m new to this, I cannot create such a group.

Have you considered using Google groups, or Google+ as a place to set up up a private discussion; or is Google anathema around here?

[Izan]

is it too late for me to join this groupbuy? if not, then i would ike to join you guys.

Edited by izan82, 15 January 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[Iporuru]

As I made a deal with the supplier I can only arrange 25kg at 80$/kg. Everybody also needs to pay 75$ for shipping. Which means 145$ for a kilo (shipping included). 145*25= $3625,- total.
When I order more than 25kg; the cost will be 100$/kg. So the first 24 (25 with me included) in this group buy will be paying 145$ for 1kg with shipping included. After that the price will be 175$ with shipping included. I’m still negotiating with the supplier. When Opaque takes the lead I will talk it through with him.

I'm definitely in for 1 kg

[smithx]

nicotinamide mononucleotide is listed by everyone as requiring -20C, so that seems to make it unlikely to be stable at normal refrigerated temperatures.

Nicotinamide riboside is also listed as being "very very hygroscopic" and requiring refrigeration, however.

I would like to buy 1Kg, however I would like to see an analysis showing the purity beforehand.

Also, if it turns out to be the wrong compound or impure after I do an analysis, what recourse do we have?

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I never ordered from them but they seem a trust worthy company. It's one of the biggest in China with a good reputation. Everybody is taking a risk, that’s a fact. If the product is not pure enough than you've thrown away your money. That’s the risk you'll be taking (we all are). If you can find a supplier with no risk who can deliver for the same price, great; it's okay. I only found companies who ask for around 2000$ for a kilo, which is insane. As I see it; it’s a risk worth taking. I’m not selling anything here. I’m not making a profit if we do the group buy. And secondly the first 25kg will be for 80$ a kilo, which is the price they will give me. The normal price is 100$ a kilo. I’m not responsible for the way this group buy goes. I already invested a lot of time in finding a supplier and negotiating. I arranged that they weigh and pack it in ear sealed bags for free. I’ve done my part.