693 replies to this topic

[PWAIN]

Firstly, thanks to parmatrix!!!!!
Secondly if Maxwatt would be kind enough to provide parmatrix with his doctor friends source maybe we could have that tested.

[midas]

@ ParMatrix

 

OK buddy....Big thanks for your efforts anyway...

Edited by midas, 22 April 2014 - 12:36 AM.

[borg389]

Really sorry to hear you got burned, Par. Is there any chance you can get your money back?

[ParMatrix]

LOL I'm not even going to waste my time trying to get my money back. I expected it. And I expect it will happen once or twice more before I get legitimate product. It's no big deal. I'll keep looking.

[nbourbaki]

ParMatrix, thank you very much for taking this on.  I recognize it's a waste of time to try to get your money back, but selling you something completely different from what you ordered needs to be addressed with this vendor.

[ParMatrix]

Oh it definitely is. I'm taking it up with Alibaba. Beyond that all I can do is let people know they are sending mislabeled product.

[midas]

Oh it definitely is. I'm taking it up with Alibaba. Beyond that all I can do is let people know they are sending mislabeled product.

 

What you see below is a google satellite pic (letter A ) of that company (Pioneer Biotech), doesn't really look like you would expect to be honest, considering all the pictures on there website of a chemical plant..  (No. 11, Daqing Road, Lianhu District, Xi'an, Shaanxi, China)

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[maxwatt]

 

Oh it definitely is. I'm taking it up with Alibaba. Beyond that all I can do is let people know they are sending mislabeled product.

 

What you see below is a google satellite pic (letter A ) of that company (Pioneer Biotech), doesn't really look like you would expect to be honest, considering all the pictures on there website of a chemical plant..  (No. 11, Daqing Road, Lianhu District, Xi'an, Shaanxi, China)

 

 

Not necessarily. Offices are often some distance from the factory.   I've been to factories in China  that showed as empty farm fields on Google.  And been at landmarks that were half a mile from where google maps showed them. 

 

A purchaser of several kilos from another source is awaiting testing results, perhaps in a week.  I submitted a sample of his batch separately for MS testing.  I am not optimistic.

 

I do have a contact from Xi'an calling around to various factories and traders there, and so far none of them really have it.  A fellow in another Province who has always been reliable quoted a price of $17,000 a kilogram.  Mind you, he doesn't have it and would have to do a lot of work to get it or make it, if he can.

 

I sent the synthesis procedure - the inexpensive one, to which Chromadex holds the patent - to a pharmaceutical house interested in making it.  They worry that since Chromadex owns the patent, they cannot sell it in the US, or maybe even make it in China.  The patent is linked to on Chromadex' site, along with another patent for using a GMO fungus to produce it, and another (pending) using a strain of yeast to make it.  This I don't think would stand up if you bred a different strain of yeast by trial and error, but Chromadex could still sue and mess you up.  They have also patented or are patenting various therapeutic applications.

 

Resveratrol, anyone?  Some botanical products people made a fortune producing resveratrol, and would like to try the same thing with NR, if it becomes a craze.  Likewise some people selling powder, or capsules they filled with it.  

 

Patience.  If anything develops, I'll share.

Edited by maxwatt, 23 April 2014 - 02:48 AM.

[Geoffrey1]

 

 

Oh it definitely is. I'm taking it up with Alibaba. Beyond that all I can do is let people know they are sending mislabeled product.

 

What you see below is a google satellite pic (letter A ) of that company (Pioneer Biotech), doesn't really look like you would expect to be honest, considering all the pictures on there website of a chemical plant..  (No. 11, Daqing Road, Lianhu District, Xi'an, Shaanxi, China)

 

 

Not necessarily. Offices are often some distance from the factory.   I've been to factories in China  that showed as empty farm fields on Google.  And been at landmarks that were half a mile from where google maps showed them. 

 

A purchaser of several kilos from another source is awaiting testing results, perhaps in a week.  I submitted a sample of his batch separately for MS testing.  I am not optimistic.

 

I do have a contact from Xi'an calling around to various factories and traders there, and so far none of them really have it.  A fellow in another Province who has always been reliable quoted a price of $17,000 a kilogram.  Mind you, he doesn't have it and would have to do a lot of work to get it or make it, if he can.

 

I sent the synthesis procedure - the inexpensive one, to which Chromadex holds the patent - to a pharmaceutical house interested in making it.  They worry that since Chromadex owns the patent, they cannot sell it in the US, or maybe even make it in China.  The patent is linked to on Chromadex' site, along with another patent for using a GMO fungus to produce it, and another (pending) using a strain of yeast to make it.  This I don't think would stand up if you bred a different strain of yeast by trial and error, but Chromadex could still sue and mess you up.  They have also patented or are patenting various therapeutic applications.

 

Resveratrol, anyone?  Some botanical products people made a fortune producing resveratrol, and would like to try the same thing with NR, if it becomes a craze.  Likewise some people selling powder, or capsules they filled with it.  

 

Patience.  If anything develops, I'll share.

 

muchas gracias. appreciate your time and knowledge. I emailed hpn regarding selling a powder----Sean seems like a good guy-----i really dislike taking a capsule that is more silicon dioxide, stearates etc. than actual substance and the jury on silicon dioxide (all this is the amorphous stuff so nano-scale s.d.) is still out among some i respect.(Peat is a little crazy but intelligent). 4 caps a day easy 500 mg additional excipients plus what is in other capsules one may be taking; in this case more actual excipients than NR. Maybe my concern is misplaced. 

 

But does not look like that is going to happen; only the capsules through them at least.

[Dstein]

 

 

I sent the synthesis procedure - the inexpensive one, to which Chromadex holds the patent - to a pharmaceutical house interested in making it.  They worry that since Chromadex owns the patent, they cannot sell it in the US, or maybe even make it in China.  The patent is linked to on Chromadex' site, along with another patent for using a GMO fungus to produce it, and another (pending) using a strain of yeast to make it.  This I don't think would stand up if you bred a different strain of yeast by trial and error, but Chromadex could still sue and mess you up.

 

I've brought this up in the past without any apparent interest from the group. The yeast in question is simply a strain of saccharomyces cerevisiae. You can by it here http://www.atcc.org/...ll/4021847.aspx for $185. I've been thinking of getting a vial and trying to culture it but I don't really have the skills. Perhaps, instead of trying to find somebody that is willing to  synthesize NR, we should be looking for someone that is willing to culture the yeast for us -- maybe a college student majoring in biology.

[maxwatt]

 

 

 

I sent the synthesis procedure - the inexpensive one, to which Chromadex holds the patent - to a pharmaceutical house interested in making it.  They worry that since Chromadex owns the patent, they cannot sell it in the US, or maybe even make it in China.  The patent is linked to on Chromadex' site, along with another patent for using a GMO fungus to produce it, and another (pending) using a strain of yeast to make it.  This I don't think would stand up if you bred a different strain of yeast by trial and error, but Chromadex could still sue and mess you up.

 

I've brought this up in the past without any apparent interest from the group. The yeast in question is simply a strain of saccharomyces cerevisiae. You can by it here http://www.atcc.org/...ll/4021847.aspx for $185. I've been thinking of getting a vial and trying to culture it but I don't really have the skills. Perhaps, instead of trying to find somebody that is willing to  synthesize NR, we should be looking for someone that is willing to culture the yeast for us -- maybe a college student majoring in biology.

 

 

 

That's a knockout strain ... does it thus overproduce nicotinamide riboside without breaking it down?  

I could make a starter with it and bake loaves of bread.  We could start a bakery.  Problem solved, unless you're gluten intolerant.

 

Kidding aside, this is the strain that produces nicotinamide riboside?  Because I know of two facilities in China that produce resveratrol from cultured yeast.  I could visit them with a little giftie.  Or setsomeone else up in the business.

 

One problem, Chromadex has a patent pending on using yeast to product N.R.  How enforceable it would be if granted, I do not know, and if it can be proved your yeast is the same or not.... but I am getting ahead of myself. 

[maxwatt]

Just an update, more negative results.  The sample is not NR, but seems to be 98% niacinamide.  Molar mass 123, less than half of NR.

 

...

A purchaser of several kilos from another source is awaiting testing results, perhaps in a week.  I submitted a sample of his batch separately for MS testing.  I am not optimistic.

 

...

 

[PWAIN]

Not sure, but here are some patents describing the method of using fungus/yeast to get Nr.

 

http://www.google.co...tents/US8114626

 

Comment from this one: In a specific embodiment, the fungus is Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

 

 

 

http://www.google.co...0111111A1?cl=en

 

Comment from this one: In particular embodiments, the fungus is Saccharomyces cerevisiae . [00012] Unexpectedly, by blocking NR uptake and salvage, the strain of this invention secretes at least 4.0 μM or 8 mg/L of nicotinamide riboside into the culture medium; a 40 -fold increase over production of nicotinamide riboside in a wild-type strain. Furthermore, supplementation of the culture medium with either nicotinic acid or nicotinamide increases nicotinamide riboside production to as much as 7- 8 μM, wherein even higher amounts of nicotinamide riboside are produced when the cells are cultured to extremely high densities. For example, S. cerevisiae grown to an optical density (600 nm) of 60 in 2X YPD + 5 mM NA was capable of producing 28 μM nicotinamide riboside.

 

It seems that there are a number of strains to get this from with differing yields. Someone who understands this stuff a bit better could probably elaborate???

[PWAIN]

Not sure if this pdf showing the process to sysntesize Nr is any use?

 

http://www.cctec.cor...tvf12/Sauve.pdf

 

 

According to this page, the synthesis above (post #434) is what ChromaDex is using.

 

http://nicotinamideriboside.org/

 

Dr. Suave invented a straightforward methodology to synthesize NR so that it could be studied on a much larger scale. This method of synthezization is patented by Cornell’s Center for Technology Enterprise and Commercialization and is licensed to ChromaDex Corportation.

 

[PWAIN]

I note here: http://www.faqs.org/...app/20120164270

 

That they say: All Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains used in this study were derivatives of the common wild-type strain, BY4742.

 

The supplier link : http://www.atcc.org/...eralinformation

 

is for BY4743

Not sure how much that matters. Also looks like they hack the genome but not quite sure.

 

They do refer to the "YOR071C gene" in example 2 which is in the supplier link so maybe...

Edited by PWAIN, 24 April 2014 - 01:32 AM.

[Dstein]

 

 

 

 

I sent the synthesis procedure - the inexpensive one, to which Chromadex holds the patent - to a pharmaceutical house interested in making it.  They worry that since Chromadex owns the patent, they cannot sell it in the US, or maybe even make it in China.  The patent is linked to on Chromadex' site, along with another patent for using a GMO fungus to produce it, and another (pending) using a strain of yeast to make it.  This I don't think would stand up if you bred a different strain of yeast by trial and error, but Chromadex could still sue and mess you up.

 

I've brought this up in the past without any apparent interest from the group. The yeast in question is simply a strain of saccharomyces cerevisiae. You can by it here http://www.atcc.org/...ll/4021847.aspx for $185. I've been thinking of getting a vial and trying to culture it but I don't really have the skills. Perhaps, instead of trying to find somebody that is willing to  synthesize NR, we should be looking for someone that is willing to culture the yeast for us -- maybe a college student majoring in biology.

 

 

 

That's a knockout strain ... does it thus overproduce nicotinamide riboside without breaking it down?  

I could make a starter with it and bake loaves of bread.  We could start a bakery.  Problem solved, unless you're gluten intolerant.

 

My understanding is that the gene knockout makes the yeast incapble of breaking down the NR, but it does not effect the yeasts ability to produce it.

 

[PWAIN]

 

 

 

 

 

I sent the synthesis procedure - the inexpensive one, to which Chromadex holds the patent - to a pharmaceutical house interested in making it.  They worry that since Chromadex owns the patent, they cannot sell it in the US, or maybe even make it in China.  The patent is linked to on Chromadex' site, along with another patent for using a GMO fungus to produce it, and another (pending) using a strain of yeast to make it.  This I don't think would stand up if you bred a different strain of yeast by trial and error, but Chromadex could still sue and mess you up.

 

I've brought this up in the past without any apparent interest from the group. The yeast in question is simply a strain of saccharomyces cerevisiae. You can by it here http://www.atcc.org/...ll/4021847.aspx for $185. I've been thinking of getting a vial and trying to culture it but I don't really have the skills. Perhaps, instead of trying to find somebody that is willing to  synthesize NR, we should be looking for someone that is willing to culture the yeast for us -- maybe a college student majoring in biology.

 

 

 

That's a knockout strain ... does it thus overproduce nicotinamide riboside without breaking it down?  

I could make a starter with it and bake loaves of bread.  We could start a bakery.  Problem solved, unless you're gluten intolerant.

 

My understanding is that the gene knockout makes the yeast incapble of breaking down the NR, but it does not effect the yeasts ability to produce it.

 

 

 

Thats my understanding too but my question is does this strain have the gene knockout? If it does, then MaxWatt can indeed send this to his contacts and get them growing it.
 

[Dstein]

Thats my understanding too but my question is does this strain have the gene knockout? If it does, then MaxWatt can indeed send this to his contacts and get them growing it.
 

 

 

Yes - it does have the appropriate gene removed. But before anybody moves forward they should double check to make sure that I'm not hallucinating.
 

[PWAIN]

 

Thats my understanding too but my question is does this strain have the gene knockout? If it does, then MaxWatt can indeed send this to his contacts and get them growing it.
 

 

 

Yes - it does have the appropriate gene removed. But before anybody moves forward they should double check to make sure that I'm not hallucinating.
 

 

 

That just seems too easy, doesn't it? Maybe they won't sell to us....

 

Max do you want us all to chip in and see if you can order some to give to your contacts?
 

[maxwatt]

I'll see if they want it, or have other sources.

 

It is shipped frozen, and unlike dry yeast from the supermarket, you have to keep it that way, or else keep feeding it or it will die.

Rather hard to bring your sealed dry ice cooled container through Chinese customs.  If it can be dried in a form that can be reconstituted and reproduce, possible to bring it along, otherwise have to get permits to ship.  Still, doable.

 

A reluctance to invest without a definite market may stop manufacturers from proceeding.  Another fly in the ointment is Chromadex, applied for a patent using yeast to manufacture NR. 

What quantity of NR per month will Americans buy?  If it's 50 kilos a month, we're in business.  If it can reach that, and their gambling luck has been good, they may make a bet.

[PWAIN]

Going by the recent Niagen group buy, over 200 bottles were sold at $33 a bottle - that's more than $6600 worth. Considering that that is an expensive way to buy Nr and many held off for that reason, I think 50kg a month is quite doable. Of course it depends on if it can be made for a reasonably price. I see similar demand to Resveratrol if that is any guide.

[YOLF]

Put me down for a Kilo depending on price and date available.

[pedr0vsky]

I have found some suppliers, if someone wants to try and talk to them...

https://www.chemexpe.../1341-23-7.html

[Major Legend]

I'll see if they want it, or have other sources.

 

It is shipped frozen, and unlike dry yeast from the supermarket, you have to keep it that way, or else keep feeding it or it will die.

Rather hard to bring your sealed dry ice cooled container through Chinese customs.  If it can be dried in a form that can be reconstituted and reproduce, possible to bring it along, otherwise have to get permits to ship.  Still, doable.

 

A reluctance to invest without a definite market may stop manufacturers from proceeding.  Another fly in the ointment is Chromadex, applied for a patent using yeast to manufacture NR. 

What quantity of NR per month will Americans buy?  If it's 50 kilos a month, we're in business.  If it can reach that, and their gambling luck has been good, they may make a bet.

 

http://www.longecity...the-group-buys/

 

Let me know if I can help out in any way.

[maxwatt]

Thanks, Major, we may take you up on this.

 

Here are the questions a manufacturer who deals in bacterial fermentation would want answered:

 

"If ChromaDex has the patent, is there any problems of the production?

And may I know the quantity of whole year? And what is your target price?"

 

WRT the patent, until it is granted, no impediment, but it presents a risk for selling material in stock.  It is alos possible that prior art would void any patent.  Also, a patent does not prohibit one from making something for one's own use.

 

Quantity for a year?  I think they would not be interested in any less than 50,000 kilos.  Target price... as low as possible? 

 

We could form a club, charge membership, and we could make the material for members use only.  Might get around the patent.  But if we were to finance the manufacturer, club or otherwise, we could pay to have a batch brewed from the bacteria.  Having read the process, it takes a liter of liquid medium to produce 8 mg of NR>  one will need a big tank, or a continuous feed process.... this is not a kitchen counter oeration.

[jCole]

Interested as well, as long as we get a independent CoA.

 

:edit:

n/m read the rest of the thread.... bummer.

Edited by jCole, 26 April 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Major Legend]

 

Thanks, Major, we may take you up on this.

 

Here are the questions a manufacturer who deals in bacterial fermentation would want answered:

 

"If ChromaDex has the patent, is there any problems of the production?

And may I know the quantity of whole year? And what is your target price?"

 

WRT the patent, until it is granted, no impediment, but it presents a risk for selling material in stock.  It is alos possible that prior art would void any patent.  Also, a patent does not prohibit one from making something for one's own use.

 

Quantity for a year?  I think they would not be interested in any less than 50,000 kilos.  Target price... as low as possible? 

 

We could form a club, charge membership, and we could make the material for members use only.  Might get around the patent.  But if we were to finance the manufacturer, club or otherwise, we could pay to have a batch brewed from the bacteria.  Having read the process, it takes a liter of liquid medium to produce 8 mg of NR>  one will need a big tank, or a continuous feed process.... this is not a kitchen counter oeration.

 

 

Max, sorry I am a bit lost, so basically these companies that are selling it (Niagen, Thorne) are buying it directly from Chromadex? So are you basically saying no chinese supplier would have this readily available. 

 

In the case of that the logistics would be more sophisticated but not undoable, I would have to in a sense supervise and micromanage the whole process in China. Can you explain the year fermentation process to me? So the synth route is biological? In what way is this patented?

 

As for the frozen transport thing, its not too hard with dry ice packs, but the problem with those is they don't last too long (I think they stay cold about 24 hours), I could store the stuff in Hong Kong and my office in China.

 

Also I am too busy to read the whole thread, the jist I get is you guys bought nicotinamide from pioneer which turned out to be a dud, after analysis by parmatrix. I also understand that you could buy bottles of this already available, so why the group buy?

 

are the dosage offered in the bottles insufficient?

 

Are we sure its the David Sinclair Nicotinamid Riboside in Thorne or Niagen by HNP?

 

I like the club membership idea, this could be a good idea for group buys in general. I think if I get started on this, I would start another thread regarding that. 

Edited by Major Legend, 26 April 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[sthira]

We could form a club, charge membership, and we could make the material for members use only.  Might get around the patent.  But if we were to finance the manufacturer, club or otherwise, we could pay to have a batch brewed from the bacteria.  Having read the process, it takes a liter of liquid medium to produce 8 mg of NR>  one will need a big tank, or a continuous feed process.... this is not a kitchen counter oeration.

I like the club membership idea, too, but how do we know this stuff is worth the efforts or not potentially harmful? Or is this another leap of faith based upon scant mouse study data?

[midas]

 

Thanks, Major, we may take you up on this.

 

Here are the questions a manufacturer who deals in bacterial fermentation would want answered:

 

"If ChromaDex has the patent, is there any problems of the production?

And may I know the quantity of whole year? And what is your target price?"

 

WRT the patent, until it is granted, no impediment, but it presents a risk for selling material in stock.  It is alos possible that prior art would void any patent.  Also, a patent does not prohibit one from making something for one's own use.

 

Quantity for a year?  I think they would not be interested in any less than 50,000 kilos.  Target price... as low as possible? 

 

We could form a club, charge membership, and we could make the material for members use only.  Might get around the patent.  But if we were to finance the manufacturer, club or otherwise, we could pay to have a batch brewed from the bacteria.  Having read the process, it takes a liter of liquid medium to produce 8 mg of NR>  one will need a big tank, or a continuous feed process.... this is not a kitchen counter oeration.

 

 

You lost me!....

 

What's with the the big thing about the yeast side of things all of a sudden?

As far as I know Major Legend was just going to see if he could find us a reputable supplier of genuine NR?

[Dstein]

 

 Can you explain the year fermentation process to me? So the synth route is biological? In what way is this patented?

 

 

Also I am too busy to read the whole thread, the jist I get is you guys bought nicotinamide from pioneer which turned out to be a dud, after analysis by parmatrix. I also understand that you could buy bottles of this already available, so why the group buy?

 

 

 

It's a quick fermentation process; it doesn't take a year. The patent comes in to play because the yeast has been genetically modified. The patent also discusses the optimal growth media and the extraction process for Nicotinamide Riboside. 

 

Nicotinamide, and Nicotinamide Riboside are not the same; the former is readily available, the latter is what this group is looking for.

 

The currently available source for Nicotinamide Riboside is extremely expensive when used at the dosage levels that people on this group would like to use.

Edited by Dstein, 27 April 2014 - 12:40 AM.