693 replies to this topic

[maxwatt]

I do not know if Chromadex is making it, or having it made.  Their patent is not yet granted, but it is a sword of Damocles hanging over those who would dare make and import it. 

Yeast fermentation is many times cheaper than chemical synthesis by orders of magnitude.  If chromadex' patent holds (far from certain, if someone challenges - the deeper purse usually wins in court) then the investment in making the stuff can become a loss.

 

I've not found a legitimate supplier in China - we have one case of red rice yeast, another plain old nicotinamide being passed off as nicotinamide ribocide.  That doesn't mean there is not a source, but it is liable to be expensive.  I was quoted 17,000 a kilo by a trustworthy fellow I know, so his source was probably 9000 a kilo or so, if he really had a source yet. 

 

So my conclusion is we can pay to have it synthesized by yeast -- it doesn't have to be the organism dstein located, I suspect a Chinese University lab could breed one in a week, but the patent is so broad that any yeast with the appropriate genetic knockout would be covered.  There are legal arguments against the patent, and the Chinese might show prior art voiding the patent, but that doesn't encourage them to make it, though I will suggest it.   Companies often apply for patents, "patent pending", to discourage competition.  It's working.  I do not know how likely this patent is to be granted, or upheld if challenged  N.B. Chromadex has a patent for producing Pterostilbene, but the Chinese still make it and will ship it to you. 

 

So:  we can crowd source the funds to rent a suitable facility to produce NR in volume, and distribute to our own "club", circumventing any patent, but it requires investment. (I am guessing 25,000 would produce 25 to 50 kilos, but that is a guess).   And we would need micromanaging by Major Legend, and possibly myself.  Major Legend, 我假设你能说一口流利的普通话?  I do not, really, beyond basics.

 

As for whether this stuff is worth the effort, that is the question.  We take a lot of things on faith, the theory behind NR looks good, it's good for mice apparently.  Niagen hasn't hurt anyone yet.  Or it might make you grow horns and a tail.  

 

 

[midas]

I've not found a legitimate supplier in China - we have one case of red rice yeast, another plain old nicotinamide being passed off as nicotinamide ribocide.  That doesn't mean there is not a source, but it is liable to be expensive.  I was quoted 17,000 a kilo by a trustworthy fellow I know, so his source was probably 9000 a kilo or so, if he really had a source yet. 

 

 

 

 

I don't get how that works, even at $9,000 that is still $3,700 more expensive per Kg than if you bought a Kg of Niagen ($4400 a Kg........@ $33 a bottle @ 7.5 grams a bottle)

So who in their right mind would be asking $17,000 a kilo never mind $9,000 when you can buy it legitimately for a lot less?
 

I dont honestly thing they will be that bothered about method of manufacture patents in China, after all the end result cant be patented?

Edited by midas, 27 April 2014 - 09:22 PM.

[maxwatt]

I had despaired when I got some news from one of the contacts I'd been trying to get to produce NR.  It should be much less than the $17,000 joke estimate I quoted above. 

 

 

We plan to produce synthetic at first then the ferment item. Can you send some samples? We can sell ferment [later]. But the problem is that ferment requires huge quantity.

 

Please confirm the anion of nicotinamide riboside (such as -OMe, -OEt, -OPh, etc).

 

He says the patent worry is my problem.  Chinese patent law is different than US, they are not worried about it now. I think as a buying club we're home free.  One question is quantity.  How many kilos, at what price, were subscribed for last time?  Any thoughts on the anion?

 

 

 

 

[PWAIN]

Yadayada posted a link here:

 

http://www.longecity...e-report/page-6

 

to this company:

 

http://tht.co/index.html

 

This is an excellent site but of interest to this thread is this:

 

http://tht.co/Beta_n...nucleotide.html

 

Thats 30ml at 100mg/ml or 3grams for $30

 

That is seriously cheap, consider that 7.5 gams of Nicotinamode Riboside (Niagen) is $33 to $47.

 

Anyone going to try it, I guess injection is the route here. Very tempted...

 

Again, all credit to Yadayada for this link.

 

 

[Geoffrey1]

Yadayada posted a link here:

 

http://www.longecity...e-report/page-6

 

to this company:

 

http://tht.co/index.html

 

This is an excellent site but of interest to this thread is this:

 

http://tht.co/Beta_n...nucleotide.html

 

Thats 30ml at 100mg/ml or 3grams for $30

 

That is seriously cheap, consider that 7.5 gams of Nicotinamode Riboside (Niagen) is $33 to $47.

 

Anyone going to try it, I guess injection is the route here. Very tempted...

 

Again, all credit to Yadayada for this link.

 

 

if you hit >>test results<< on all their products it is a dead link

 

you do not want to inject i do not think without really really pure material; and i think NMR would need to be injected.  NMR should actually be a great deal more expensive per gram then NR so something does not seem to add up?? Someone correct if i am wrong please, but i believe NMR would be a good deal more expensive than NR by weight.

 

Is ParMatrix New Star ?? new star nootropics do independent testing on most of what they sell. Have a number of the same products and i think will be getting pitolisant soon (they emailed when i asked that they were looking into it.).

 

i emailed re no analysis or test results (all dead links) but no response from them 

[PWAIN]

 

if you hit >>test results<< on all their products it is a dead link

 

you do not want to inject i do not think without really really pure material; and i think NMR would need to be injected.  NMR should actually be a great deal more expensive per gram then NR so something does not seem to add up?? Someone correct if i am wrong please, but i believe NMR would be a good deal more expensive than NR by weight.

 

Is ParMatrix New Star ?? new star nootropics do independent testing on most of what they sell. Have a number of the same products and i think will be getting pitolisant soon (they emailed when i asked that they were looking into it.).

 

i emailed re no analysis or test results (all dead links) but no response from them 

 

 

Yeah but I don't think not having the website perfect is a reason to be too concerned esp if they have just started up. The links will no doubt be added later. When did you email them, I only posted the link about 2 hours ago.

 

BTW, it's NMN not NMR.

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't know if any of this stuff is real but I think it is worth investigation. I don't know what the process for synthing NMN is or how expensive it would be but it may well be cheaper that NR and I don't think any NMN synth processes are patented so it would be the more desirable option from the synth companies perspective.

 

Pretty sure new star do not do any of the following:

 

Alagebrium (ALT711)

Astragaloside

7,8-dihydroxyflavone

BPAP

Tianeptime

 

and as you say, they don't CURRENTLY have pitolisant.

 

They also have a lot of VERY interesting looking other stuff on there. Has anyone brought from them yet?

[midas]

 

Yadayada posted a link here:

 

http://www.longecity...e-report/page-6

 

to this company:

 

http://tht.co/index.html

 

This is an excellent site but of interest to this thread is this:

 

http://tht.co/Beta_n...nucleotide.html

 

Thats 30ml at 100mg/ml or 3grams for $30

 

That is seriously cheap, consider that 7.5 gams of Nicotinamode Riboside (Niagen) is $33 to $47.

 

Anyone going to try it, I guess injection is the route here. Very tempted...

 

Again, all credit to Yadayada for this link.

 

 

if you hit >>test results<< on all their products it is a dead link

 

you do not want to inject i do not think without really really pure material; and i think NMR would need to be injected.  NMR should actually be a great deal more expensive per gram then NR so something does not seem to add up?? Someone correct if i am wrong please, but i believe NMR would be a good deal more expensive than NR by weight.

 

Is ParMatrix New Star ?? new star nootropics do independent testing on most of what they sell. Have a number of the same products and i think will be getting pitolisant soon (they emailed when i asked that they were looking into it.).

 

i emailed re no analysis or test results (all dead links) but no response from them 

 

 

I also couldn't find an address or any information on that company on the website, maybe just me but I didn't find anything..

 

NMR is priced here at $604 for 500mg so I really dont think it would be possible to find 3 grams for $30 just yet. Maybe in a year or two.

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=GB
 

[PWAIN]

I also couldn't find an address or any information on that company on the website, maybe just me but I didn't find anything..

 

NMR is priced here at $604 for 500mg so I really dont think it would be possible to find 3 grams for $30 just yet. Maybe in a year or two.

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=GB
 

 

 

Resveratrol here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=AU

 

100mg - yours for just Aus $510 (about U$475)

 

They (research/reference chemical suppliers like Sigma Aldrich) are not a good guide to what retail price might be.

 

I suspect they are keeping their anonymity to keep out of trouble with some of what they sell. Much llike you can buy steroids/peptides or prescription drugs from websites that have no address details.

 

So yeah, a big risk but if they are serious, they will want to build a good reputation.

Edited by PWAIN, 30 April 2014 - 03:03 AM.

[typ3z3r0]

Is ParMatrix New Star ??

 

No, ParMatrix owns NootropicsDepot.

[Geoffrey1]

 

I also couldn't find an address or any information on that company on the website, maybe just me but I didn't find anything..

 

NMR is priced here at $604 for 500mg so I really dont think it would be possible to find 3 grams for $30 just yet. Maybe in a year or two.

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=GB
 

 

 

Resveratrol here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=AU

 

100mg - yours for just Aus $510 (about U$475)

 

They (research/reference chemical suppliers like Sigma Aldrich) are not a good guide to what retail price might be.

 

I suspect they are keeping their anonymity to keep out of trouble with some of what they sell. Much llike you can buy steroids/peptides or prescription drugs from websites that have no address details.

 

So yeah, a big risk but if they are serious, they will want to build a good reputation.

 

yes excuse NMN; and you are right some interesting  products. I have not seen NMN for less than $1,000 per gram.  2 people had already mentioned injecting---just in passing i am sure but their price does not compute i do not think. So if one thought that it really was NMN in the amount they are saying (i do not think feasible) then perhaps to think in terms of taking sublingually. And you are right newish site so we'll look for their hopefully independent analysis

 

You are great at finding material at good prices (MitoQ from Anne) Pwain and a valuable contributor to the forum. 

[midas]

 

I also couldn't find an address or any information on that company on the website, maybe just me but I didn't find anything..

 

NMR is priced here at $604 for 500mg so I really dont think it would be possible to find 3 grams for $30 just yet. Maybe in a year or two.

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=GB
 

 

 

Resveratrol here:

 

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=en&region=AU

 

100mg - yours for just Aus $510 (about U$475)

 

They (research/reference chemical suppliers like Sigma Aldrich) are not a good guide to what retail price might be.

 

I suspect they are keeping their anonymity to keep out of trouble with some of what they sell. Much llike you can buy steroids/peptides or prescription drugs from websites that have no address details.

 

So yeah, a big risk but if they are serious, they will want to build a good reputation.

 

 

PWAIN....Here is another source for NMN and it is on a par with Sigma price wise..

 

http://www.trc-canad...β-D-NMN; β-NMN;

 

I would be really careful with that 3 grams for $30 thing without any evidence that it is exactly what it should be especially if you were thinking of injecting it.
 

[dpaxton]

I have been grilling the guys in China.  I am curious if para can put up his ftir data. I got this from them.  I then had the company back checked through my friends in Qingdao.  It has been some time spent since we got the red rice result.  SO can we get the actualy scan from the ftir?

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[Geoffrey1]

I had despaired when I got some news from one of the contacts I'd been trying to get to produce NR.  It should be much less than the $17,000 joke estimate I quoted above. 

 

 

We plan to produce synthetic at first then the ferment item. Can you send some samples? We can sell ferment [later]. But the problem is that ferment requires huge quantity.

 

Please confirm the anion of nicotinamide riboside (such as -OMe, -OEt, -OPh, etc).

 

He says the patent worry is my problem.  Chinese patent law is different than US, they are not worried about it now. I think as a buying club we're home free.  One question is quantity.  How many kilos, at what price, were subscribed for last time?  Any thoughts on the anion?

 

 

 

 

price was $650 / kilo delivered -----i think we had 16-20 kilos we could have gotten together at that price---but that was for bogus material so price is going to be higher. Do not think actually feasible economically to start with the synthetic---the synthetic NR is very expensive to produce while making from yeast much cheaper once set up. Continuous (feed) fermentation process i think easiest and why huge quantity?? If some outfit is already set up doing fermentation they have the bio-reactors---- so an outfit that is already producing  material using fermentation is best bet. For some company to begin cold turkey without bio-reactors and expertise in fermentation (yeast is easiest micro-organism to grow so not extreme expertise) would be expensive but not for outfit already producing and selling material using a fermentation process. And certainly with all the buzz and how expensive it is currently here quantity will be there; think matter of finding the right company and pointing out the market potential. 

[YOLF]

What about adding the natural form of HA (hyaluranic acid (sp?) to the NR. Both make great anti aging therapies. The currently available HA supplements use a synthetic "small molecule" variant to be orally bioavailable. The stuff is great for your skin. IIRC Ray Kurzweil gets infusions of it. 1-2 punch?

[smithx]

OK I just got a reply back from a reliable supplier I have used for 10 years (for other compounds obviously), and who has been very consistent. I check everything with my own analysis and the worst that's happened with these guys was that one batch out of dozens was not quite as pure as stated, but they corrected that immediately. There have never been any problems with the material being the wrong compound, and the purity issue was quite minor.

 

The problem is that they need firm orders, and won't know the exact price until it's produced. So I'm not sure how this would work. I suppose I can get people here to state that they would take a kg if they want one, then have them produce some, and then whomever on the list who said they wanted them can get them on 1st come 1st served. If anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

 

I would handle the whole thing for a 20% mark-up of the costs shown here, which would cover me getting analysis done, repackaging everything and shipping it out to people (but not the postage). If someone else wants to do analysis too, that's fine of course. I'm not sure I want to get into the Nicotinamide Riboside biz, but it's going to be a lot of work to coordinate a group buy and I will need to get something for the time.

 

Here's what he sent:

 

 

 

As purity is an important factor for the production cost, we'd like to make following proposal :

 

Minimum 97% pure material (by HPLC):

1 kg:   USD3000 / kg, lead time 2 months (estimate).

10 kg: USD2000 / kg, lead time 3 months (estimate).

50 kg: USD1500 / kg, lead time 4 months (estimate).

100 kg: USD1000 / kg, lead time 5 months (estimate).

 

 

Minimum 98% pure material (by HPLC):

1 kg:   USD3300 / kg, lead time 2 months (estimate).

10 kg: USD2200 / kg, lead time 3 months (estimate).

50 kg: USD1650 / kg, lead time 4 months (estimate).

100 kg: USD1100 / kg, lead time 5 months (estimate).

 

Upon receiving your confirming order, we will assign 2 chemists and start R&D. If successful, we will make trial lot and ship 1 g free sample to you for your approval. After sample approval, we will start large scale production.

 

Based on real cost from large scale production, we will adjust price (lower or higher) accordingly.

 

Please reconfirm structure of nicotinamide riboside chloride (below).

Await your further comment.

 

Cl^-

Nicotinamide riboside

Other names：1-(β-D-Ribofuranosyl)nicotinamide; N-Ribosylnicotinamide

CAS number：1341-23-7  

 

 

What do people think? There's a lead time, prices are not super low, and we won't have a sample to test for probably a month, but as I said these guys have been super reliable for me for a long time, and I trust that they will produce the real stuff at the specified purity.

 

 

Edited by smithx, 30 April 2014 - 07:35 PM.

[Geoffrey1]

OK I just got a reply back from a reliable supplier I have used for 10 years (for other compounds obviously), and who has been very consistent. I check everything with my own analysis and the worst that's happened with these guys was that one batch out of dozens was not quite as pure as stated, but they corrected that immediately. There have never been any problems with the material being the wrong compound, and the purity issue was quite minor.

 

The problem is that they need firm orders, and won't know the exact price until it's produced. So I'm not sure how this would work. I suppose I can get people here to state that they would take a kg if they want one, then have them produce some, and then whomever on the list who said they wanted them can get them on 1st come 1st served. If anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

 

I would handle the whole thing for a 20% mark-up of the costs shown here, which would cover me getting analysis done, repackaging everything and shipping it out to people (but not the postage). If someone else wants to do analysis too, that's fine of course. I'm not sure I want to get into the Nicotinamide Riboside biz, but it's going to be a lot of work to coordinate a group buy and I will need to get something for the time.

 

Here's what he sent:

 

 

 

As purity is an important factor for the production cost, we'd like to make following proposal :

 

Minimum 97% pure material (by HPLC):

1 kg:   USD3000 / kg, lead time 2 months (estimate).

10 kg: USD2000 / kg, lead time 3 months (estimate).

50 kg: USD1500 / kg, lead time 4 months (estimate).

100 kg: USD1000 / kg, lead time 5 months (estimate).

 

 

Minimum 98% pure material (by HPLC):

1 kg:   USD3300 / kg, lead time 2 months (estimate).

10 kg: USD2200 / kg, lead time 3 months (estimate).

50 kg: USD1650 / kg, lead time 4 months (estimate).

100 kg: USD1100 / kg, lead time 5 months (estimate).

 

Upon receiving your confirming order, we will assign 2 chemists and start R&D. If successful, we will make trial lot and ship 1 g free sample to you for your approval. After sample approval, we will start large scale production.

 

Based on real cost from large scale production, we will adjust price (lower or higher) accordingly.

 

Please reconfirm structure of nicotinamide riboside chloride (below).

Await your further comment.

 

Cl^-

Nicotinamide riboside

Other names：1-(β-D-Ribofuranosyl)nicotinamide; N-Ribosylnicotinamide

CAS number：1341-23-7  

 

 

What do people think? There's a lead time, prices are not super low, and we won't have a sample to test for probably a month, but as I said these guys have been super reliable for me for a long time, and I trust that they will produce the real stuff at the specified purity.

 

 

Thanks for your efforts---no one wants to find a reliable source more than me but prices seem to high for China. We were able to do  a group buy for $33.00/bottle. Sean at HPN would do another similar for 100 bottles in x amount of time. So 33.00 for 7.5 grams---free shipping from HPN always (Sean seems a good guy) for $3300 better purity (>99% if their claims are true have not seen the analysis) that is 750 grams.  This with the 20% added (and you would deserve it certainly) would be about the same cost for less pure NR if my math is correct. Add on shipping and for sure I think not much better than the $33.00/bottle available to us now for less pure NR (nice to get without all the excipients granted)

Perhaps you can get back to them with the math and ask for a better price: $2400/kilo for 97% purity would be a start I think.

[Mr.No]

Maybe you dont need to buy NR. It seems that nicotinic acid is more effective (and probably more safe) in increasing NAD levels in neurons. Read this article and make your own conclusions... 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....nihms-96557.pdf

 

Some quotes:

 

"In all vertebrates, NAD can be synthesized by two pathways: de novo synthesis from tryptophan [3,4] and/or from vitamin precursors in the diet: NA, nicotinamide (NAM), and nicotinamide riboside (NAMR)."

 

"not every cell is capable of converting each precursor to NAD at all times although NAD is essential to survival."  

http://www.ncbi.nlm....51433/table/T1/

 

"Neuronal explant experiments performed by Sasaki et al. reveal neurons are inefficient at de novo and salvage NAD biosynthesis."

 

"In contrast to neurons, glial cells possess efficient de novo and salvage pathways. Glial cells use NA with more than a 250-fold greater efficiency than NAM or quinolinate"

 

"Current data strongly support the notion that glia serve important roles in both the synthesis of NAD from tryptophan, NA, or NAM, and the delivery of NAD to neurons (Fig. 3)."

 

"Given the divisions of labor reserved for glia, it makes sense that glia are likely more efficient at NAD biosynthesis than neurons and consequently serve critical functions as providers of NAD to neurons. Collectively experimental data supports the notion that glial may be required for the essential delivery of NAD to neurons starting from tryptophan, nicotinic acid/niacin, or nicotinamide/niacinamide, but not nicotinamide riboside [1]."

 

etc

 

There are many other health benefits with supplying body with niacinamide/nicotinic acid...

By the way, brain is composed of 90% of glial cells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroglia

[maxwatt]

I have registered as a company with Chromadex, inorder to see their pricing and perhaps order

At a minimum I could get one gram for HPLC testing, but perhaps I can see their pricing for 20 - 50 kilo amunts.

 

I assume they are suppliers to Niagen.  One interesting bit is they sell the sodium anion of NR.  But in the amounts some are considering using, that will be a lot of sodium.

[Nattzor]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18429699 (this is the first citation in the study you linked.

 

"Because current data suggest that nicotinamide riboside may be the only vitamin precursor that supports neuronal NAD+ synthesis, we present prospects for human nicotinamide riboside supplementation and propose areas for future research."

 

Nicotinamide Riboside seems to support neuronal synthesis (just as your table said, tryptophan too, but probably to a way lesser degree), so no idea why it's not possible to combine both.

 

If I understod what you cited correctly, they mean that tryptophan, nicotinic acid/niacin, or nicotinamide/niacinamide can't be made in the neurons so they have to be transported there, but nicotinamide riboside can.

[smithx]

Perhaps you can get back to them with the math and ask for a better price: $2400/kilo for 97% purity would be a start I think.

 

Thanks for your efforts---no one wants to find a reliable source more than me but prices seem to high for China. We were able to do  a group buy for $33.00/bottle. Sean at HPN would do another similar for 100 bottles in x amount of time. So 33.00 for 7.5 grams---free shipping from HPN always (Sean seems a good guy) for $3300 better purity (>99% if their claims are true have not seen the analysis) that is 750 grams.  This with the 20% added (and you would deserve it certainly) would be about the same cost for less pure NR if my math is correct. Add on shipping and for sure I think not much better than the $33.00/bottle available to us now for less pure NR (nice to get without all the excipients granted)

 

Not sure what you're looking at, but at a group buy quantity of 50Kg, it's $1500 a kilo for the 97% purity. This is not a per-user price, it's a group buy price.

 

 

 

 

[midas]

I would be interested in it if it was below $1000 Kg I just couldn't go beyond that, and to be honest I would be pushing it at $1000.

Another point for me is that it has not been proven to work in humans as of yet, so for someone in my financial position, that $1000 would be a massive gamble. It would be just my luck to buy a Kg and find out a few days later it did nothing.

 

I would 100% be in for 0.5 Kg at $500 though. Another problem for me over here is a 20% import charge plus the shipping.

 

Actually now I think about it with the shipping and that 20% plus your 20% (which would be $15,000 on 50Kg at $1500 per KG) I'm out. I'll just wait and see if something else comes along.

 

But thanks for making the effort.

 

[APBT]

 

Perhaps you can get back to them with the math and ask for a better price: $2400/kilo for 97% purity would be a start I think.

 

Thanks for your efforts---no one wants to find a reliable source more than me but prices seem to high for China. We were able to do  a group buy for $33.00/bottle. Sean at HPN would do another similar for 100 bottles in x amount of time. So 33.00 for 7.5 grams---free shipping from HPN always (Sean seems a good guy) for $3300 better purity (>99% if their claims are true have not seen the analysis) that is 750 grams.  This with the 20% added (and you would deserve it certainly) would be about the same cost for less pure NR if my math is correct. Add on shipping and for sure I think not much better than the $33.00/bottle available to us now for less pure NR (nice to get without all the excipients granted)

 

Not sure what you're looking at, but at a group buy quantity of 50Kg, it's $1500 a kilo for the 97% purity. This is not a per-user price, it's a group buy price.

 

 

 

 

 

Am I correct that to obtain that price, we'd need to generate $75,000 as a group, plus 20% for your efforts and pay up-front?

[midas]

I would be interested in it if it was below $1000 Kg I just couldn't go beyond that, and to be honest I would be pushing it at $1000.

Another point for me is that it has not been proven to work in humans as of yet, so for someone in my financial position, that $1000 would be a massive gamble. It would be just my luck to buy a Kg and find out a few days later it did nothing.

 

I would 100% be in for 0.5 Kg at $500 though. Another problem for me over here is a 20% import charge plus the shipping.

 

Actually now I think about it with the shipping and that 20% plus your 20% (which would be $15,000 on 50Kg at $1500 per KG) I'm out. I'll just wait and see if something else comes along.

 

But thanks for making the effort.

 

 

As an aside to my last post.....I am finding this all a little odd to be honest. My experience of forums prior to coming here have all been motorcycle related and everyone took part for the greater good of other members.

 

It seems to me that it doesn't quite work like that here. If for instance, I found a supplier of quality product I would not hesitate to pass that information on to the rest of you, but people sometimes on here don't seem to want to share information as to who they are talking about.

"I know someone", "My supplier", "A contact of mine"?.....All a little cloak and dagger to me. Seems as though this is being looked at as just another money spinner for some people, that's not what I'm used to on forums.

And by that I am not having a go at anyone, if that's the way things work around here then that's fine, but its new to me.

 

 

I have seen two people from China post on here that are supposed to represent a company and I blew this pic up from one of there websites (you know the ones, with the pic of the lab and factory!)....from a distance as it is on the website it looks OK'ish, but blown up I got this. Everything covered with a half inch of dust.

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[maxwatt]

well, posting contact information that is likely to lead to many small pain in the arse queries is not doing a company any favors. One I know has posted here, felt unwelcome, now lurks. If he wanted to be known he'd say so.

and there is a Cheaper synthesis process than the standard one, so we'll see where prices come in at. the yeast fermentation even with continuous feed is not that efficient, 8 mg per liter of feed stock. Setting up the equipmemt for a run, when there is something else you can make with it for a sure profit, is not going to happen without prospects for massive volume and sales.

As for the dust in the factory, it looks like feedstock that got loose: when working with tons of finely ground material, the dust can build up. unless it interferes with production they won't clean it up that often.

[PWAIN]

the yeast fermentation even with continuous feed is not that efficient, 8 mg per liter of feed stock. Setting up the equipmemt for a run, when there is something else you can make with it for a sure profit, is not going to happen without prospects for massive volume and sales.

that would require 125000 liters for a kg of product. that doesn't sound like something that is going to be cheap any time soon.

[smithx]

I do find it a bit odd that people are complaining about my saying I'd do a 20% mark-up which would make this about $1800/Kg and then are comparing this to someone else who is selling NR at $3300/Kg, not creating any complaints. I think it's a psycological issue: If I said "I am selling 97% NR for $1800/KG" everyone would say "OK", but if I say "I am getting NR at $1500/Kg and marking it up 20%" that's suddenly not a good thing. 

 

If you are interested in this deal, or if there's a realistic price at which you would be interested, please state it here. If there's not  enough interest I will just tell him that it's not happening.

 

This company is one I've worked with for years on totally unrelated compounds and if they do this it's because I'm convincing them to do it. That's why they are "my supplier" for this deal if it happens.

 

Since this is a new process for them the first batches will be a lot more expensive to get going.

 

Edited by smithx, 01 May 2014 - 07:23 AM.

[PWAIN]

smithx, I can buy smaller amounts of Niagen, it comes pre packaged and measured out into convenient caps. I am dealing with not the producer, not the wholesaler but the retailer and yet he can get it down to $4400 per Kg.

The whole idea of a group buy is to get a significant reduction in costs and usually when doing a bulk purchase like say 50Kgs the price drops right down. I would be looking at around $500 to $800 per Kg plus maybe $20 for shipping. If this is unreachable, then to be honest, I'm out, I'll stick to the Niagen where I don't have to make a nearly $2000 investment which may go wrong in so many ways.

As for your cut, well I hope you do realise that by taking a cut, you stop being an organiser and start being a retailer. This means that you have to pay tax on any profit and file the appropriate tax returns. Far more serious than that though is that you become liable for the product you sold so if someone gets ill because of the product, you can be held responsible and if someones order doesn't arrive, you can be taken to court as a business. Finally if Chromadex decides that their patents have been infringed, they can sue you as a business and penaltys for businesses are usually far worse than for an individual. I would not recommend taking any cut to anyone organising a buy of any patented product. As a non profiting organiser, you are nearly immune to all of the above.

Personally, despite being really keen to get this going, I would rather wait for someone like Maxwatt to organise a group buy and at a reasonable price than jump early for what is a fairly modest reduction in cost.

I'm not meaning to have a go at you, but just trying to explain my reluctance to go with the option you presented. Your efforts are appreciated but at $1800 + per Kg, I'm definitely out.

If however you decide to sell 45grams for $81 ie the same minimum order as the Niagen group buy but at your new price, then I'm in (and you don't even have to measure it out and cap and label and bottle it ).

Edited by PWAIN, 01 May 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[midas]

I have registered as a company with Chromadex, inorder to see their pricing and perhaps order

At a minimum I could get one gram for HPLC testing, but perhaps I can see their pricing for 20 - 50 kilo amunts.

 

I assume they are suppliers to Niagen.  One interesting bit is they sell the sodium anion of NR.  But in the amounts some are considering using, that will be a lot of sodium.

Good luck with that, I already tried that but ...1) they wouldnt sell it to me..... 2) I couldn't find it priced on the website even when I had signed up.

 

When PWAIN contacted HPN about the Niagen they sell the guy he was talking to said it was Nicotinamide Riboside Chloride that was in their product.

 

 

the yeast fermentation even with continuous feed is not that efficient, 8 mg per liter of feed stock. Setting up the equipmemt for a run, when there is something else you can make with it for a sure profit, is not going to happen without prospects for massive volume and sales.

that would require 125000 liters for a kg of product. that doesn't sound like something that is going to be cheap any time soon.

 

 

 

When you look here it seems that it is possible under the right circumstances to get as much as 56mg from 1 litre with the correct fermentation process..Unless I am getting confused.

 

http://www.google.co...tents/US8114626

 

"Unexpectedly, by blocking NR uptake and salvage, the strain of this invention secretes at least 4.0 uM or 8 mg/L of nicotinamide riboside into the culture medium; a 40-fold increase over production of nicotinamide riboside in a wild-type strain. Furthermore, supplementation of the culture medium with either nicotinic acid or nicotinamide increases nicotinamide riboside production to as much as 7-8 μM, wherein even higher amounts of nicotinamide riboside are produced when the cells are cultured to extremely high densities. For example, S. cerevisiae grown to an OD_600nm of 60 in 2×YPD+5 mM NA was capable of producing 28 uM nicotinamide riboside."

Edited by midas, 01 May 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Geoffrey1]

well, posting contact information that is likely to lead to many small pain in the arse queries is not doing a company any favors. One I know has posted here, felt unwelcome, now lurks. If he wanted to be known he'd say so.

and there is a Cheaper synthesis process than the standard one, so we'll see where prices come in at. the yeast fermentation even with continuous feed is not that efficient, 8 mg per liter of feed stock. Setting up the equipmemt for a run, when there is something else you can make with it for a sure profit, is not going to happen without prospects for massive volume and sales.

As for the dust in the factory, it looks like feedstock that got loose: when working with tons of finely ground material, the dust can build up. unless it interferes with production they won't clean it up that often.

Thanks for the clarifying; I checked with vosunchem.com  who makes the synthetic but the price was way high

Guess my idea of making it in the basement won't work {i did make a bio-reactor and culture this same type of yeast in college ---not changed genetically like this of course) 

 

Greatly appreciate your expertise and efforts on our behalf   This will happen eventually

Muchas Gracias

[smithx]

OK, so I wrote to the supplier again and asked if:

1) they could come down on the price

2) they could ship everything to each individual

3) they could do 500g quantities

 

If 1 can happen I think there will be more interest, and if 2 and 3 can happen, I won't need to mark anything up, because I won't be doing any work.

 

I don't think there will be any patent infringement, because I don't think they would use an identical process. But I'm not involved with how they would do it: I would only test the resulting material to verify whether it's what it's supposed to be at the promised purity. With regards to liability, that's a good point, and I would expect everyone to sign some kind of release stating that they take responsibility for whatever they do with the stuff.

 

My motivation here really is just to get some nicotinamide riboside for myself at a reasonable cost. I'm not interested in going into the business.