693 replies to this topic

[Geoffrey1]

Do we have an estimate? I'd still like to know how much of this stuff I need to take.

At this point (figure you are not interested in weight-loss but rather the life-extension exhibited by the mouse studies) i do not think anyone can say with certainty. Some very intelligent folks on this forum though and i think there has been 2 extrapolations during the long (17 pages) life of this thread). So if you go all the way back you should be able to find--- from memory and my brain i came up with a minimum of 1.5 grams ----i think one of the mouse extrapolators came up with that 1.5-2 grams in terms of correspondence to human. If someone who has knowledge regarding could jump in here would be great. I plan on starting with 1 gram minimum a day divided in the earlier part of the day (there has been a post re the time of day to take as well that was informative) and probably level off at 1.5 grams a day max.

Hopefully this poor response will invite a better one with the mathematics of conversion from mouse to......us.

[pinemarten]

I'd also like to be on the list if possible.

I'd also like to be on the list if possible.

[pedr0vsky]

 

 

Chromadex sells it for $1,400/kg.

 

 

$1400/kg sounds pretty good to me. 100g would cost $140. That's reasonable for me. I am in for 100g. More 9 persons like me and we are up to 1 kg!

[gnappi]

 

 

 

Chromadex sells it for $1,400/kg.

 

 

$1400/kg sounds pretty good to me. 100g would cost $140. That's reasonable for me. I am in for 100g. More 9 persons like me and we are up to 1 kg!

 

I want 250g please.

[borg389]

If the final price is $100-200 a kg, I'm definitely in for 1kg. If the price is higher, then I'd be in for $100-$200 worth.

[mikey]

$1400/kg sounds pretty expensive. How long would that much last a person?

 

If one took 125 mg twice a day - so 250 mg/day, as per instructions on the products currently available, 1 kg would provide 4,000 days worth of NR.

 

So a daily dose would cost 35 cents.
 

Then there are people who might want to take higher doses, so the math for a higher dose would have to be done,

 

One things is clear, if it is purchased from Chromadex, it is the real thing.

[mikey]

 

 

 

Chromadex sells it for $1,400/kg.

 

 

$1400/kg sounds pretty good to me. 100g would cost $140. That's reasonable for me. I am in for 100g. More 9 persons like me and we are up to 1 kg!

 

 

I'd buy 250 g and freeze a lot of it.

 

Does anyone know how stable the molecule is - especially how long it will last in a freezer?

[YOLF]

 

Do we have an estimate? I'd still like to know how much of this stuff I need to take.

At this point (figure you are not interested in weight-loss but rather the life-extension exhibited by the mouse studies) i do not think anyone can say with certainty. Some very intelligent folks on this forum though and i think there has been 2 extrapolations during the long (17 pages) life of this thread). So if you go all the way back you should be able to find--- from memory and my brain i came up with a minimum of 1.5 grams ----i think one of the mouse extrapolators came up with that 1.5-2 grams in terms of correspondence to human. If someone who has knowledge regarding could jump in here would be great. I plan on starting with 1 gram minimum a day divided in the earlier part of the day (there has been a post re the time of day to take as well that was informative) and probably level off at 1.5 grams a day max.

Hopefully this poor response will invite a better one with the mathematics of conversion from mouse to......us.

 

Sounds reasonable.

[Dstein]

What do we suppose the shelf life of this stuff is?

 

Two years when stored in a cool & dry place.
 

[Dstein]

 

Does anyone know how stable the molecule is - especially how long it will last in a freezer?

 

 

I don't have the reference handy, but it is not supposed to be frozen. It has a 2 year shelf life.

[Plasticperson]

I'd be interested in the group buy however idk how useful NAR would be? its directly converted into niacinamide.

 

http://web.expasy.or...s/show_image?J1  < btw this biochemical pathway map is seriously one of the best things I've stumbled upon.. U should see the full wall poster its insanely intricate but in a sense beautiful. Ive never seen a biochemical pathway map as complete as this one. 

 

niacinamide has honestly been the best nootropic/anxiolytic i have ever used hands down. I was so interested in niacinamide that i contacted my biochem professor about it. To my surprise he actually takes niacin-flush form daily along with a host of other vitamins. 

 

Has anyone else noticed the profound euphoric/anxiolytic effect of niacinamide?

[PWAIN]

Any idea where I can get the whole wall poster? be nice to have it all together to look at.

[maxwatt]

@plastic person: lovely as it is, the chart is incomplete. NR is also converted into NAD+, unlike nicotinamide. This is what is thought responsible for the life extending effects we are hoping for. Cross fingers.

An update on synthesis. Until the yield can be determined, they don't know pricing. Tests are underway.

On group buys: to make it doable, our volunteer prefers to distribute in one kilogram quantities. Otherwise we would have to pay someone to weigh and package from the kilogram bags from the manufacturer. Or Groups can subdivide a kilo to share.

It will help if we can determine the demand curve. Can a volunteer make one of those surveys where people can tell us how much they would buy at what price? ONe that turns into a spread sheet? Hard to do on my cellphone.

Dosage: to obtain the effects Sinclair saw in mice, human equivalent estimates have ranged from 2 to 7.5 grams daily. My calculation is about four grams.

[Fima Kachinski]

Can I please be added to the group buy? I'd be willing to spend about $1000/Kg. If it's more expensive, I'd consider getting a smaller amount, depending on the price. Of course, if it isn't much better than what HPN sells it for, it probably doesn't make sense given that you have to weigh and cap it yourself. I also agree with everyone regarding it being tested by an independent lab to confirm purity.

[hav]

Dosage: to obtain the effects Sinclair saw in mice, human equivalent estimates have ranged from 2 to 7.5 grams daily. My calculation is about four grams.

 

I would be interested in at least one kg.

 

Howard

[mikey]

1 kg for me too

[slotrite]

count me in for a kilo

 

[smithx]

I'm interested in a Kg, if someone is able to find a supplier with a reasonable cost and a pure product.

 

Here is some information I've gathered:

 

- Chromadex is not selling to anyone but a few partners with whom they want to make exclusive deals. They feel they are in a great position to keep this an high-priced product because of their patent position. So I don't think we are likely to be getting anything from Chromadex in bulk, based on that.

- Nicotinamide riboside is extremely hygroscopic, so it's not really usable material for putting into capsules. This is why they are selling NR chloride.

- NR chnloride is best made through fermentation. It's apparently difficult to make through synthesis.

- The wholesale price of Niagen is actually $24.95 per bottle in quantity. This makes it $3333/Kg packaged.

 

So based on all the above, I really doubt anyone is about to be supplying real, usable NR cl at $200/Kg. "My" supplier is still working on the process, and if there is still interest when they have something to say about it, I will post the pricing and purity which they have available. I am not wedded to them, but believe them to be reliable based on my past experience with them.

 

If Maxwatt or Legend or anyone else is able to make this material available at 98% purity or better, and in a chloride form so it isn't crazy hygroscopic, then I am definitely interested.

 

By the way, my offer of having a sample analyzed is still in effect. It would be by a university lab, but would not be "on the books" so to speak, so I wouldn't be able to put the university's name on it.

 

 

 

 

[Major Legend]

I'm interested in a Kg, if someone is able to find a supplier with a reasonable cost and a pure product.

 

Here is some information I've gathered:

 

- Chromadex is not selling to anyone but a few partners with whom they want to make exclusive deals. They feel they are in a great position to keep this an high-priced product because of their patent position. So I don't think we are likely to be getting anything from Chromadex in bulk, based on that.

- Nicotinamide riboside is extremely hygroscopic, so it's not really usable material for putting into capsules. This is why they are selling NR chloride.

- NR chnloride is best made through fermentation. It's apparently difficult to make through synthesis.

- The wholesale price of Niagen is actually $24.95 per bottle in quantity. This makes it $3333/Kg packaged.

 

So based on all the above, I really doubt anyone is about to be supplying real, usable NR cl at $200/Kg. "My" supplier is still working on the process, and if there is still interest when they have something to say about it, I will post the pricing and purity which they have available. I am not wedded to them, but believe them to be reliable based on my past experience with them.

 

If Maxwatt or Legend or anyone else is able to make this material available at 98% purity or better, and in a chloride form so it isn't crazy hygroscopic, then I am definitely interested.

 

By the way, my offer of having a sample analyzed is still in effect. It would be by a university lab, but would not be "on the books" so to speak, so I wouldn't be able to put the university's name on it.

 

 

 

 

I've been asked by a promising supplier, that is asking if we either want the freebase form, or the chloride form? So chloride it is?

 

It doesn't give me much confidence that Chinese firms will be able to jump from usual organic synthesis into fermentation.

 

Phytochemicals & Botanicals - ChromaDex

https://www.chromade...US_All_reduc...

•  
•  

 

blend; PURENERGY™, a powerful fusion of caffeine and pTeroPure and in the process of developing Nicotinamide. Riboside (NR), a novel next-generation ...

https://www.chromade...uced_secure.pdf

 

^ pTeroPure, wonder whats that?

 

 

[mikey]

pTeroPure is pterostilbene, a cousin of resveratrol, but with a much longer half-life.

14 minutes for resveratrol, while 105 minutes for pterostilbene.

http://www.pteropure...ptero/resv.html

 

[mikey]

I'm interested in a Kg, if someone is able to find a supplier with a reasonable cost and a pure product.

 

Here is some information I've gathered:

 

- Chromadex is not selling to anyone but a few partners with whom they want to make exclusive deals. They feel they are in a great position to keep this an high-priced product because of their patent position. So I don't think we are likely to be getting anything from Chromadex in bulk, based on that.

- Nicotinamide riboside is extremely hygroscopic, so it's not really usable material for putting into capsules. This is why they are selling NR chloride.

- NR chnloride is best made through fermentation. It's apparently difficult to make through synthesis.

- The wholesale price of Niagen is actually $24.95 per bottle in quantity. This makes it $3333/Kg packaged.

 

So based on all the above, I really doubt anyone is about to be supplying real, usable NR cl at $200/Kg. "My" supplier is still working on the process, and if there is still interest when they have something to say about it, I will post the pricing and purity which they have available. I am not wedded to them, but believe them to be reliable based on my past experience with them.

 

If Maxwatt or Legend or anyone else is able to make this material available at 98% purity or better, and in a chloride form so it isn't crazy hygroscopic, then I am definitely interested.

 

By the way, my offer of having a sample analyzed is still in effect. It would be by a university lab, but would not be "on the books" so to speak, so I wouldn't be able to put the university's name on it.

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely correct.

 

Chomadex is in the enviable position of only talking with the big boys and maintaining exclusivity and a high price. So, any company saying that they can supply NR is likely pulling our chain.

[smithx]

Chomadex is in the enviable position of only talking with the big boys and maintaining exclusivity and a high price. So, any company saying that they can supply NR is likely pulling our chain.

 

 

That's not exactly true. I'm confident that the manufacturer I've been talking to will be able to supply it at the pricing I was quoting earlier. They are looking at how to produce it in a non-infringing way. If they find a method, as they think they can, they will probably get down to about $1000/Kg in quantities of 100Kg or more. But I don't think anyone can supply it for $200/Kg. Production cost is going to be a lot higher than that, from what I can gather.

[ADD-PI-Infection]

I would be interested in 250 grams

[APBT]

 

Do we have an estimate? I'd still like to know how much of this stuff I need to take.

At this point (figure you are not interested in weight-loss but rather the life-extension exhibited by the mouse studies) i do not think anyone can say with certainty. Some very intelligent folks on this forum though and i think there has been 2 extrapolations during the long (17 pages) life of this thread). So if you go all the way back you should be able to find--- from memory and my brain i came up with a minimum of 1.5 grams ----i think one of the mouse extrapolators came up with that 1.5-2 grams in terms of correspondence to human. If someone who has knowledge regarding could jump in here would be great. I plan on starting with 1 gram minimum a day divided in the earlier part of the day (there has been a post re the time of day to take as well that was informative) and probably level off at 1.5 grams a day max.

Hopefully this poor response will invite a better one with the mathematics of conversion from mouse to......us.

 

 

 

 

FULL TEXT:  http://embomolmed.em....abstract#sec-2

 

 

Results We administered 400 mg/kg/day of NR, or chow diet (CD), for two groups of male Deletor and control mice (Yang et al, 2007; Canto et al, 2012): �pre manifestation� (12 months at initiation, 16 months at termination), to test whether early NR treatment can prevent MM, and �post manifestation� (17 months at initiation, 21 months at termination), to test whether NR can affect the progression of an already manifested disease. The control groups received similar chow diet without NR. The dose and study protocol were exactly as published
previously (Canto et al, 2012), because they showed that this dose of NR efficiently increased NAD⁺ in skeletal muscle.
 

 

This was not the Sinclair study.  In this work, they administered NR orally (not 500 mg/kg NMN injected, as in Sinclair) with chow at 400 mg/kg daily.  Additionally, the study was over four months, not eight days as with the Sinclair study.

 

Based on that, the HED dose of NR for a 70 kg (154 lb) human, would be 2270 mg daily.
(mouse mg/kg dose) x 5.675 = 70kg human dose

[Dstein]

 

... they will probably get down to about $1000/Kg in quantities of 100Kg or more. But I don't think anyone can supply it for $200/Kg. Production cost is going to be a lot higher than that, from what I can gather.

 

 

At that price, I will probably just buy the yeast, and start brewing homemade high NR beer.

 

If they are talking about producing it from yeast then start up cost may be high, but the actual production is not. The most difficult step in the yeast production is extracting the NR after the fermentation process is complete. And as far as I'm concerned they can skip this step and just sell me a few kilos of high NR nutritional yeast, instead of the refined product.
 

[smithx]

They NR appears to be excreted into the medium, not retained in the yeast.

[Dstein]

They NR appears to be excreted into the medium, not retained in the yeast.

 

So beer made with this yeast would be high in NR?

[borg389]

&nbsp;

They NR appears to be excreted into the medium, not retained in the yeast.

 
So beer made with this yeast would be high in NR?

&nbsp;

genius! Beer that extends your life! Is there anything beer can't do?

[maxwatt]

You could take the beer and pass it through an HPLC column to concentrate the NR.

 

NR occurs naturally in milk.  Get those genetically modified cows ready.

 

From what I have gathered, the patents are not a problem in China.  Following the model of internet pharmacies, I suppose an overseas website could be set up, and smaller quantities  shipped to the US for "personal use".  If someone wanted to set up such a business.  

 

"Beer is God's proof that he loves us and wants us to be happy."

     - Benjamin Franklin

[M-K]

APBT: "Based on that, the HED dose of NR for a 70 kg (154 lb) human, would be 2270 mg daily.

(mouse mg/kg dose) x 5.675 = 70kg human dose."

 

For seven days?  If the point is to fIll up the NAD reservoirs, wouldn't smaller amounts (say 250 mg) over a much longer time accomplish the same thing?  And probably with less risk?