693 replies to this topic

[Geoffrey1]

I am reluctant to buy and use Niagen because it is a chloride form of NR and may have different effects than the non-chloride form. Until I see more research I will simply use Niacin, because of its HDL increasing effects and because it is a precusor to NAD+ and becasue it is so much less expensive. I am withdrawing my group Niagen buy involvement.

Niacin is converted to nicotinamide in-vivo so no matter what you take you end up internally with nicotinamide which I think does inhibit SIRT1,

As far as a precursor to NAD+ i will let other wiser folks respond---it it a different pathway than NR so not directly comparable---i seem to remember a problem with Niacin to NAD+ but others will clarify I'm sure.

[Geoffrey1]

 

 

NR Cl becomes NR on contac5 with water, ad in your stomach. No difference chemically or biologically at that point. DrW worries to the contrary, it's a non-issue.

I wonder if Smithx and I are talking to the same company? My contact thinks ge can get ne a samplein a month, cos5 to be determined by the yield they get. If they improve the process, it voids the patent
...

 
If so that is good. However, does the released chloride have any action on the NR (perhaps breaking it up in some way and rendering it useless compared to the non-chloride form of NR?).
 
I still want to see more research.

It might help to read some basic chemistry textbooks first. NR freebase would at the least need to be sealed in a nitrogen atmosphere so as not to spoil before it reached your lips. But for that matter, Sinclair's paper that started us on this path did not actually use NR, but another link in the NAD cycle. We are assuming that because one converts to the other, roughly speaking, and both raise the NAD/NADH ratio, they are interchangeable. Heck, we are assuming because Sinclair et al. said it works in mice,when injected, it will work in humans, when swallowed. Wish us luck.

 

we do have the research  http://embomolmed.em....abstract#sec-2

 

that has been linked to in this thread---the mice were given NR orally not injected, with positive results

NR increased mitochondrial biogenesis in skeletal muscle and ameliorated hallmarks of mitochondrial myopathy

 

....something anyway----looking forward to the Niagen research someone mentioned but would not delay my purchase of a kilo waiting for such

 

Legend has a list of folks and probably noted potential amounts in terms of getting an idea of amount we would purchase---seems to me that it would not be quite 50 kilos-- but that is just based on memory.

[maxwatt]

We are talking about two different studies. I wasn't aware of this one, thanks. When I get back to my pc I'll try and post a link, hard to find on my phone.

[midas]

We are talking about two different studies. I wasn't aware of this one, thanks. When I get back to my pc I'll try and post a link, hard to find on my phone.

 

I posted it on the Sinclair thread posted about 4 weeks ago, here is the link http://embomolmed.em....abstract#sec-2

 

I don't know why it doesn't work but just copy and paste it into your search bar.

Edited by midas, 22 May 2014 - 12:22 AM.

[DrW]

 

 

NR Cl becomes NR on contac5 with water, ad in your stomach. No difference chemically or biologically at that point. DrW worries to the contrary, it's a non-issue.

I wonder if Smithx and I are talking to the same company? My contact thinks ge can get ne a samplein a month, cos5 to be determined by the yield they get. If they improve the process, it voids the patent
...

 
If so that is good. However, does the released chloride have any action on the NR (perhaps breaking it up in some way and rendering it useless compared to the non-chloride form of NR?).
 
I still want to see more research.

It might help to read some basic chemistry textbooks first. NR freebase would at the least need to be sealed in a nitrogen atmosphere so as not to spoil before it reached your lips. But for that matter, Sinclair's paper that started us on this path did not actually use NR, but another link in the NAD cycle. We are assuming that because one converts to the other, roughly speaking, and both raise the NAD/NADH ratio, they are interchangeable. Heck, we are assuming because Sinclair et al. said it works in mice,when injected, it will work in humans, when swallowed. Wish us luck.

 

 

If Sinclair did not use NR as everyone reports, what was used? Why call this other substance NR if it is not? Oral NR works to promote NAD+ - not injected form. I want that! Just because it works in mice doesn't mean it won't work in humans - the opposite is more likely true.

Edited by DrW, 22 May 2014 - 01:53 AM.

[PWAIN]

Sinclair used Nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN). NMN requires injecting so most people think that NR is a easier and possibly cheaper alternative. Sinclair reportedly indicated that NR would work just as well.

 

One company had some NMN available for a fairly cheap price but it was withdrawn due to purity issues. If it becomes available again, then maybe that would be an alternative for those brave enough to do injecting.

[midas]

 

 

If Sinclair did not use NR as everyone reports, what was used? Why call this other substance NR if it is not? Oral NR works to promote NAD+ - not injected form. I want that! Just because it works in mice doesn't mean it won't work in humans - the opposite is more likely true.

 

 

I think you maybe better reading this thread from the beginning and look up the "David Sinclair does it again" thread and read that also. Then you will know as much about this as we all do.

 

You are shooting from the hip with this, the rest of us have been involved for a few months now, you need to do some reading.

[DrW]

 

I am reluctant to buy and use Niagen because it is a chloride form of NR and may have different effects than the non-chloride form. Until I see more research I will simply use Niacin, because of its HDL increasing effects and because it is a precusor to NAD+ and becasue it is so much less expensive. I am withdrawing my group Niagen buy involvement.

Niacin is converted to nicotinamide in-vivo so no matter what you take you end up internally with nicotinamide which I think does inhibit SIRT1,

As far as a precursor to NAD+ i will let other wiser folks respond---it it a different pathway than NR so not directly comparable---i seem to remember a problem with Niacin to NAD+ but others will clarify I'm sure.

 

 

 

Yes, I stand corrected. Niacin is not a substitute for NR as a precuser to NAD+ 

[1thoughtMaze1]

Guys, no need to panic, what you so need is right here. We are talking about leaving all the average mortals behind. Open your wallet. http://www.biotivia...._antiaging.html

[DrW]

Guys, no need to panic, what you so need is right here. We are talking about leaving all the average mortals behind. Open your wallet. http://www.biotivia...._antiaging.html

 

Panic now subsided. Taking out a mortgage to buy. Asked them about a large quantity for a group buy.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Guys, no need to panic, what you so need is right here. We are talking about leaving all the average mortals behind. Open your wallet. http://www.biotivia...._antiaging.html[/url]

 
Panic now subsided. Taking out a mortgage to buy. Asked them about a large quantity for a group buy.

Heh heh heh, now you're speaking my language.

[PWAIN]

Important note: MitoTrans is purified, stabilized NAD+ in a patented Delayed Release UV protected tablet manufactured in a fully certified pharmaceutical facility. MitoTrans is Not Nicotinamide Riboside (NR), Niacin, NADH, or a NAD+ substitute or precursor. MitoTrans is the actual Coenzyme that was up regulated in the December 2013 Harvard, National Institutes of Health trial.

Not even NR so yawn....

[DrW]

 

Important note: MitoTrans is purified, stabilized NAD+ in a patented Delayed Release UV protected tablet manufactured in a fully certified pharmaceutical facility. MitoTrans is Not Nicotinamide Riboside (NR), Niacin, NADH, or a NAD+ substitute or precursor. MitoTrans is the actual Coenzyme that was up regulated in the December 2013 Harvard, National Institutes of Health trial.

Not even NR so yawn....

 

Better than NR. NAD+ is what NR hopes to become but may not. NAD+ is the real deal.

 

BTW I can get nicotinamide mononucleotide in liquid for injection.

 

 The price is expensive :it is 53USD/gram.7300USD for 1kg

[DrW]

 

Important note: MitoTrans is purified, stabilized NAD+ in a patented Delayed Release UV protected tablet manufactured in a fully certified pharmaceutical facility. MitoTrans is Not Nicotinamide Riboside (NR), Niacin, NADH, or a NAD+ substitute or precursor. MitoTrans is the actual Coenzyme that was up regulated in the December 2013 Harvard, National Institutes of Health trial.

Not even NR so yawn....

 

Better than NR. NAD+ is what NR hopes to become but may not. NAD+ is the real deal.

 

BTW I can get nicotinamide mononucleotide in liquid for injection.

 

 The price is expensive :it is 53USD/gram.7300USD for 1kg

[PWAIN]

My understanding of NAD+ is that is it hard to get it in the system without damaging it. NAD+ has been available as a supplement for years but has not had any known transformations lol.

 

It was 500mg/Kg in the mice. Using the HED (500mg x 3/37) it works out at approx 40mg/kg. Thats 3 grams per day.  $53/gram would be prohibitive but $7.30/gram on the 1Kg amount might work (but would anyone else come in with me? How hard would it be to inject 3 grams of the stuff and is in injected into the blood or muscle or subQ?)

 

If 3 grams of MNM is required to be injected, I can't help wondering if NR at a gram or less is a complete waste of time?

 

Edited by PWAIN, 22 May 2014 - 05:02 AM.

[mindpatch]

Some polarized views on the marketed product 

 

Anyone tried this version?

 

[nbourbaki]

Some polarized views on the marketed product 

 

Anyone tried this version?

 

 

I've been taking this for months.  The recommended dose on the bottle is way too low in my opinion.  I didn't notice any significant changes until I got above 2g per day.  If those people in the reviews were only taking the recommended dose, I can understand why they didn't notice any effects.

 

There are quite a few threads on Niagen including personal experience with this product.  Happy reading.

[Mr.No]

Some polarized views on the marketed product 

 

Anyone tried this version?

 

 

Nicotinic acid have many health benefits and increase NAD in many tissues (brain (most important in glial cells), liver, hart, kidneys, intestine...) but NR have only on laboratory rat muscle? No human trial, no negative effects?   And many of us are willing to spend XXX amount of money on "magic pill" ?

[Nattzor]

The "nicotinic acid is the only one who can increase in brain tissue" was wrong afaik.

 

This is the citation the study used: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18429699

 

 

Because current data suggest that nicotinamide riboside may be the only vitamin precursor that supports neuronal NAD+ synthesis, we present prospects for human nicotinamide riboside supplementation and propose areas for future research.

 

I've already posted this before (the table in the study you linked also supported this). Looks more like it was their sentence structure that threw you off, because NMR seems to be the only thing that can support neuronal NAD+ level directly, the rest needs to be transported there.

http://www.longecity...-16#entry659558

 

I however see no reason for not using boths.

 

[DrW]

Guys, no need to panic, what you so need is right here. We are talking about leaving all the average mortals behind. Open your wallet. http://www.biotivia...._antiaging.html

 

 

I looked at the price and my panic came back;

 

Each treatment of MitoTrans consists of a box of 30 100mg sealed blister packed, time release stabilised NAD+  tablets.  The recommended dosage is one tablet daily prior to bed time for one month.  Included with each order is also a box of time release Trans-resveratrol tablets. The reason for this combination approach is that Resveratrol and NAD+ operate interdependently with respect to the activation of the Sirtuins at the cellular and extra-cellular level. Both NAD+ and Resveratrol activate these enzymes, but in different manners, and within different organelles of the cell, including the mitochondria.    Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or concerns. 

 

The cost of the one month course, which consists of 30 MitoTrans delayed release NAD+ tablets and one Transmax TR 30 day supply is $479.  Clearly, this is not inexpensive, however it is the very best price we are able to offer, and we do not expect to realize a profit at this price for 6 months or more given our cost of raw material and processing

 

Bear in mind that one need not take MitoTrans indefinitely as is the case with most nutrient type supplements. Also, more is not better when it comes to the correct dosage of most polyphenols and natural compounds.  In the recent Harvard trials the effects at the DNA and Mitochondrial levels were fundamental in nature and not likely to be easily or quickly reversed. We recommend one 30 day course of MitoTrans every 3 to 4 months  because our scientists believe, based upon the scientific evidence in the public domain, that this schedule will be adequate to maintain the beneficial effects indefinitely.

 

 

Actually $479 every 3 or 4 months is not that bad.

[midas]

 

 

 

I looked at the price and my panic came back;

 

Each treatment of MitoTrans consists of a box of 30 100mg sealed blister packed, time release stabilised NAD+  tablets.  The recommended dosage is one tablet daily prior to bed time for one month.  Included with each order is also a box of time release Trans-resveratrol tablets. The reason for this combination approach is that Resveratrol and NAD+ operate interdependently with respect to the activation of the Sirtuins at the cellular and extra-cellular level. Both NAD+ and Resveratrol activate these enzymes, but in different manners, and within different organelles of the cell, including the mitochondria.    Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or concerns. 

 

The cost of the one month course, which consists of 30 MitoTrans delayed release NAD+ tablets and one Transmax TR 30 day supply is $479.  Clearly, this is not inexpensive, however it is the very best price we are able to offer, and we do not expect to realize a profit at this price for 6 months or more given our cost of raw material and processing

 

Bear in mind that one need not take MitoTrans indefinitely as is the case with most nutrient type supplements. Also, more is not better when it comes to the correct dosage of most polyphenols and natural compounds.  In the recent Harvard trials the effects at the DNA and Mitochondrial levels were fundamental in nature and not likely to be easily or quickly reversed. We recommend one 30 day course of MitoTrans every 3 to 4 months  because our scientists believe, based upon the scientific evidence in the public domain, that this schedule will be adequate to maintain the beneficial effects indefinitely.

 

 

Actually $479 every 3 or 4 months is not that bad.

 

 

I find it strange that you are impressed with this as there is no evidence at all that it does anything, yet you want more scientific evidence about Nicotinqmide Riboside Chloride. Evidence exists on the NR.

The Mitotrans however, is not backed up at all in any way and has not been used in any trials.

 

Read this article on James Betz and Botivia. If the link does not work copy and paste it into your browser search bar.

 

http://www.wired.co....ll-hype-machine

 

 

Edited by maxwatt, 22 May 2014 - 09:39 PM.

[Major Legend]

You know this has opened up some very interesting thoughts in my head, clearly there are those who are trying to trademark or patent certain formulations, masking research on what practically works on the way, and ultimately making a huge buck, and then we have the other group who basically wants to pay next to nothing for state of the art chemicals.

 

I am thinking there must be a middle ground somewhere. I think if you want state of the art medicine you are going to have to pay for it in some way, but on the other hand the companies providing the trademark products want to give you low dosage solutions to charge you a high price, or better yet steer you away from the real research, or offer weird interpretations of it. Companies do this for obvious reasons, you can make a shit load of money by selling trademarked pill forms, its just packaging.

 

There is nothing wrong with this, but clearly a lot of time this leads to people having to buy packaged pills because there is no incentive for companies to provide the raw form.

[DrW]

 

 

 

 

I looked at the price and my panic came back;

 

Each treatment of MitoTrans consists of a box of 30 100mg sealed blister packed, time release stabilised NAD+  tablets.  The recommended dosage is one tablet daily prior to bed time for one month.  Included with each order is also a box of time release Trans-resveratrol tablets. The reason for this combination approach is that Resveratrol and NAD+ operate interdependently with respect to the activation of the Sirtuins at the cellular and extra-cellular level. Both NAD+ and Resveratrol activate these enzymes, but in different manners, and within different organelles of the cell, including the mitochondria.    Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or concerns. 

 

The cost of the one month course, which consists of 30 MitoTrans delayed release NAD+ tablets and one Transmax TR 30 day supply is $479.  Clearly, this is not inexpensive, however it is the very best price we are able to offer, and we do not expect to realize a profit at this price for 6 months or more given our cost of raw material and processing

 

Bear in mind that one need not take MitoTrans indefinitely as is the case with most nutrient type supplements. Also, more is not better when it comes to the correct dosage of most polyphenols and natural compounds.  In the recent Harvard trials the effects at the DNA and Mitochondrial levels were fundamental in nature and not likely to be easily or quickly reversed. We recommend one 30 day course of MitoTrans every 3 to 4 months  because our scientists believe, based upon the scientific evidence in the public domain, that this schedule will be adequate to maintain the beneficial effects indefinitely.

 

 

Actually $479 every 3 or 4 months is not that bad.

 

 

I find it strange that you are impressed with this as there is no evidence at all that it does anything, yet you want more scientific evidence about Nicotinqmide Riboside Chloride. Evidence exists on the NR.

The Mitotrans however, is not backed up at all in any way and has not been used in any trials.

 

Read this article on James Betz and Botivia. If the link does not work copy and paste it into your browser search bar.

 

http://www.wired.co....ll-hype-machine

 

 

 

 

 

There is no evidence for me that oral ingested NR Chloride increases the NAD+ to NADH ratio, more like that found with youth as opposed to age. The evidence that this ratio is improved by adding NAD+ as absorbed intestinally is prima facie. Adding NAD+ through the intestines should increase the NAD+ to NADH ratio should it not? I put my money on Mitotrans instead of oral NR chloride at this point, but yes more research is needed.  

[pedr0vsky]

 

Guys, no need to panic, what you so need is right here. We are talking about leaving all the average mortals behind. Open your wallet. http://www.biotivia...._antiaging.html

 

 

I looked at the price and my panic came back;

 

Each treatment of MitoTrans consists of a box of 30 100mg sealed blister packed, time release stabilised NAD+  tablets.  The recommended dosage is one tablet daily prior to bed time for one month.  Included with each order is also a box of time release Trans-resveratrol tablets. The reason for this combination approach is that Resveratrol and NAD+ operate interdependently with respect to the activation of the Sirtuins at the cellular and extra-cellular level. Both NAD+ and Resveratrol activate these enzymes, but in different manners, and within different organelles of the cell, including the mitochondria.    Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or concerns. 

 

The cost of the one month course, which consists of 30 MitoTrans delayed release NAD+ tablets and one Transmax TR 30 day supply is $479.  Clearly, this is not inexpensive, however it is the very best price we are able to offer, and we do not expect to realize a profit at this price for 6 months or more given our cost of raw material and processing

 

Bear in mind that one need not take MitoTrans indefinitely as is the case with most nutrient type supplements. Also, more is not better when it comes to the correct dosage of most polyphenols and natural compounds.  In the recent Harvard trials the effects at the DNA and Mitochondrial levels were fundamental in nature and not likely to be easily or quickly reversed. We recommend one 30 day course of MitoTrans every 3 to 4 months  because our scientists believe, based upon the scientific evidence in the public domain, that this schedule will be adequate to maintain the beneficial effects indefinitely.

 

 

Actually $479 every 3 or 4 months is not that bad.

 

NAD itself won't work. MIT professor of biology:

http://www.youtube.c...UgyxDs1oc#t=302
 

[Geoffrey1]

 

 

Guys, no need to panic, what you so need is right here. We are talking about leaving all the average mortals behind. Open your wallet. http://www.biotivia...._antiaging.html

 

 

I looked at the price and my panic came back;

 

Each treatment of MitoTrans consists of a box of 30 100mg sealed blister packed, time release stabilised NAD+  tablets.  The recommended dosage is one tablet daily prior to bed time for one month.  Included with each order is also a box of time release Trans-resveratrol tablets. The reason for this combination approach is that Resveratrol and NAD+ operate interdependently with respect to the activation of the Sirtuins at the cellular and extra-cellular level. Both NAD+ and Resveratrol activate these enzymes, but in different manners, and within different organelles of the cell, including the mitochondria.    Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or concerns. 

 

The cost of the one month course, which consists of 30 MitoTrans delayed release NAD+ tablets and one Transmax TR 30 day supply is $479.  Clearly, this is not inexpensive, however it is the very best price we are able to offer, and we do not expect to realize a profit at this price for 6 months or more given our cost of raw material and processing

 

Bear in mind that one need not take MitoTrans indefinitely as is the case with most nutrient type supplements. Also, more is not better when it comes to the correct dosage of most polyphenols and natural compounds.  In the recent Harvard trials the effects at the DNA and Mitochondrial levels were fundamental in nature and not likely to be easily or quickly reversed. We recommend one 30 day course of MitoTrans every 3 to 4 months  because our scientists believe, based upon the scientific evidence in the public domain, that this schedule will be adequate to maintain the beneficial effects indefinitely.

 

 

Actually $479 every 3 or 4 months is not that bad.

 

NAD itself won't work. MIT professor of biology:

http://www.youtube.c...UgyxDs1oc#t=302
 

 

my understanding as well---that NAD itself will not work; good find thanks for the link.

[DrW]

So NAD+ only originates within the cell and can't be supplied externally but precursors can be supplied extra-cullularly to make more inside the cell?

 

If so injecting NMR may be the only solution - unless oral NR (or even NR chloride) can be shown to work to increase NAD+ in the cell. Right now only NMR injections have been shown to do this and study headlines that say NR does this are wrong since NMR was actually used in the NR headlined studies.

[midas]

 

 

 

 

I still want to see more research.

 

 

Copy and paste this link (for some reason we can no longer just click on links) and you will see a short talk from David Sinclair and at the bottom of the page you will see around 8 links to studies.

 

http://livecellresea...om/science.html

 

Also click on "How to use Niagen"  on that page and you will find this...

 

 

 

Don't Decide Now..
Try Niagen™
RISK-FREE For 90 Days!

 

"If you are not 100% satisfied with your purchase, we DON’T want your money! It’s as simple as that. If you do not experience renewed energy, sharper memory, and increased focus – among many other benefits – with Niagen™, we want you to contact us for a full refund of your purchase price. There will be no questions asked and we will refund your money immediately."

Edited by midas, 24 May 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[hav]

 

We are talking about two different studies. I wasn't aware of this one, thanks. When I get back to my pc I'll try and post a link, hard to find on my phone.

 

I posted it on the Sinclair thread posted about 4 weeks ago, here is the link http://embomolmed.em....abstract#sec-2

 

I don't know why it doesn't work but just copy and paste it into your search bar.

 

 

Although it was not a longevity study, the oral dosage they used looks workable:

 

Effective treatment of mitochondrial myopathy by nicotinamide riboside, a vitamin B3

 

We administered 400 mg/kg/day of NR, or chow diet (CD), for two groups of male Deletor and control mice

 

I think that translates to around 2.3 grams/day for a human.

 

Howard

[midas]

 

 

Although it was not a longevity study, the oral dosage they used looks workable:

 

Effective treatment of mitochondrial myopathy by nicotinamide riboside, a vitamin B3

 

I think that translates to around 2.3 grams/day for a human.

 

Howard

 

 

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on this can clarify, but from what I have read about sub-lingual dosing you need around a third of the dosage.

So, if a daily dose of 250mg was taken sub-lingually then that should get you 750mg per day from a 250mg oral dose.

 

[DrW]

 

 

We are talking about two different studies. I wasn't aware of this one, thanks. When I get back to my pc I'll try and post a link, hard to find on my phone.

 

I posted it on the Sinclair thread posted about 4 weeks ago, here is the link http://embomolmed.em....abstract#sec-2

 

I don't know why it doesn't work but just copy and paste it into your search bar.

 

 

Although it was not a longevity study, the oral dosage they used looks workable:

 

Effective treatment of mitochondrial myopathy by nicotinamide riboside, a vitamin B3

 

We administered 400 mg/kg/day of NR, or chow diet (CD), for two groups of male Deletor and control mice

 

I think that translates to around 2.3 grams/day for a human.

 

Howard

 

 

You would daily dose 40 grams (40,000 MG) of NR for a 220 pound human using the study dose of 400 MG per KG. 40 grams of NR is very expensive, but humans may not need the same dose as mice but they would still need a big dose..