64 replies to this topic

[ambivalent]

free radical sponge

might this be an area of concern? From what I've been able to grasp, strictly from a layman's perspective, in recent times it seems increasingly questionable whether anti-oxidants are cast as unqualified heros and free-radicals the villains of aging - their roles seem uncertain.

If we were operating in the realm of c60 theory, without Baati, and anectdotal evidence supported here - would the recent research of Sinclair and its implicit challenge to the free radical theory of aging make us much more cautious of the benefits of introducing such a powerful anti-oxidant in to the cell?

Although the human experimentation of c60 is encouraging, approaching 2 years for some, with the unfolding science I feel less reassured by the idea of mass elimination of free radicals. I recall reading for example, that free-radicals might act to flag damaged cells.

Thanks in advance.

[niner]

Yes, it is an area of concern. If I had cancer, I wouldn't take it. Part of the reason that I dose monthly rather than more often is to give incipient cancer cells a chance to go apoptotic. I'm not sure what (if anything) Sinclair did to challenge the free radical theory of aging, but we've known more or less forever that free radicals weren't the only reason for aging. They are, however, still a non-trivial factor. There's been some recent work, much of it probably misinterpreted, that has led to claims that the free radical theory of aging was "dead". If anything has been overturned, it's an interpretation of the FRTA that no one in the know has held for many years. This is probably still worthwhile if it succeeds in putting a dent in the "antioxidant" craze that supermarket shelves are heavy with.

[ambivalent]

Thanks for the response niner; I was parroting somewhat Jim Watson's remark at anti-aging firewall:

"In my opinion, this was the “Top Anti-aging Story” of 2013 – The story of how mitochondrial dysfunction is not due to intrinsic mitochondrial degeneration (i.e. the Free Radical Theory of Aging or the Wear and Tear theory) but due to inadequate expression of mitochondrial encoded genes which are controlled by cell nuclear factors."

I also read on the blog this quote from VG:

"As these proximate determinants of aging become clearer, three key central interventions for drastically slowing aging appear to be a. upregulating expression of the SIRT1 protein expression (via Resveratrol, etc), b. upregulating nuclear expression of NAD+ (via NMN or certain dietary supplements), and c. taking a supplement that acts as a powerful mitochondrial antioxidant (quite possibly, C60-olive oil or MitoQ)."

If Niagen serves to upregulate NAD+ is there, given how it is theorised C60oo acts, likely to be additional benefit to taking c60oo? If say Niagen reverses the age of the mitochondria, where is the benefit in mopping up the mitochondrial free radicals? Admittedly, C60 might be operating in other ways which are beneficial and there is some sense in covering all bases but naturally there could be downside too in c60. If this recenty study had surfaced at the same time as Baati's et al's work would you have gone down the Niagen route and held back on c60oo to await further research?

Edited by ambivalent, 19 February 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[zen]

Yes, it is an area of concern. If I had cancer, I wouldn't take it.
...

What is your take on this study?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21956470

Edited by zen, 19 February 2014 - 11:37 PM.

[aribadabar]

Yes, it is an area of concern. If I had cancer, I wouldn't take it.
...

What is your take on this study?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21956470

Great find, zen!
If I may add a follow-up to this question to niner and the other experienced C60 users :

CONCLUSION:

It was found that water-soluble pristine C(60) fullerenes efficiently inhibit the transplanted malignant tumor growth and metastasis.

• Is this water-soluble C60 compound quoted in the study the same as this or that ?
• What is the difference in using SOL5162 vs SOL5163 product ?
• And are their water solutions supposed to act the same as C60-oo in humans?

Thanks!

[Turnbuckle]

• And are their water solutions supposed to act the same as C60-oo in humans?

I don't know if they're supposed to, but they very likely do. Reports from users here suggest that C60/EVOO is stimulating stem cells, and that is likely happening by the stimulation of mitochondria. If so, the same process would cause cancer cells to revert into normal cells since cancer cells in general shut down their mitochondria and thereby get some of the advantages of stem cells--eg, immortality.

[zen]

• And are their water solutions supposed to act the same as C60-oo in humans?

I don't know if they're supposed to, but they very likely do. Reports from users here suggest that C60/EVOO is stimulating stem cells, and that is likely happening by the stimulation of mitochondria. If so, the same process would cause cancer cells to revert into normal cells since cancer cells in general shut down their mitochondria and thereby get some of the advantages of stem cells--eg, immortality.

Another interesting angle - http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19786831

[Turnbuckle]

• And are their water solutions supposed to act the same as C60-oo in humans?

I don't know if they're supposed to, but they very likely do. Reports from users here suggest that C60/EVOO is stimulating stem cells, and that is likely happening by the stimulation of mitochondria. If so, the same process would cause cancer cells to revert into normal cells since cancer cells in general shut down their mitochondria and thereby get some of the advantages of stem cells--eg, immortality.

Another interesting angle - http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19786831

Yes. It can go either way, restoring the autophagic housekeeping function that is mediated by mitochondria, or by causing the cancer cell to revert to a non-cancerous somatic cell.
This is from my write-up on my profile page--

8. C60 and cancer

In some ways cancer cells are like stem cells, and sometimes are stem cells. They are immortal and achieve immortality by shutting down (or more precisely, decoupling) their mitochondria and resorting to glucose fermentation for energy (the Warburg Effect). They also become immune to apoptosis (cellular suicide) because active mitochondria are key to setting this housekeeping function into motion. So if C60 restores mitochondrial ATP production, it would also restore apoptosis and that would destroy the cancer cells. Thus C60 might provide a two pronged approach to neutralizing cancer. (See my remarks on "differentiation therapy" in the section above.)

So while niner said above that he wouldn't take C60 if he had cancer, I certainly would, as it appears to be an excellent treatment.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 20 February 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[niner]

Another interesting angle - http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19786831

These are fullerene nanocrystals, aka aggregates or nC60. In this form, c60 creates free radicals, instead of deactivating them, so in this sense, nC60 is the "anti-c60-oo". In the abstract, they say:

Here we show that the water-dispersed nanocrystal of underivatized fullerene C60 (Nano-C60) at noncytotoxic concentrations caused authentic autophagy and sensitized chemotherapeutic killing of both normal and drug-resistant cancer cells in a reactive oxygen species (ROS)-dependent and photo-enhanced fashion.

I wouldn't take this as evidence that c60-oo is a cancer cure. From Baati's results, it looks like c60-oo prevents carcinogenesis, at least in rats, but that's an entirely different thing from stopping cancer once it starts. It may turn out that c60-oo suppresses cancer as well, and that would be a fantastic outcome, but I'd rather be cautious until we see some evidence that it's safe.

[niner]

What is your take on this study?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21956470

This looks like it's using Andrievsky's hydrated fullerenes. (It's from Ukraine, although he's not on the paper) They used a fairly large dose, 5mg/kg, although they described it as low, in a mouse model with implanted lung tumor cells. They did see some suppression of metastasis in this model, which is a good sign. It's encouraging.

CONCLUSION:

It was found that water-soluble pristine C(60) fullerenes efficiently inhibit the transplanted malignant tumor growth and metastasis.

• Is this water-soluble C60 compound quoted in the study the same as this or that ?
• What is the difference in using SOL5162 vs SOL5163 product ?
• And are their water solutions supposed to act the same as C60-oo in humans?

It's not the same. Fullerene chemists use the word "pristine" to mean unsubstituted, while those analogs from Solaris (which are an order of magnitude more expensive than gold...) are attached to ionic groups.

Whether or not the hydrated pristine fullerene of Andrievsky et al. are the same as c60-oo or not is a matter of some disagreement. There's certainly some similarity in their effects, but they are different molecules.

Edited by niner, 20 February 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[robosapiens]

You might find something useful here http://www.nutriguar.../NADPHox-ED.pdf

[McQueen]

I thought I might throw a wild card in the mix. I have been taking c60 since late November approximating Turnbuckle's routine of 4 mg per week. I have had thinning hair for a couple of years now and I'm using minoxidil . Seems the minoxidil is working on the rear part of my head, don't know if it has slowed down or helped the loss on the front part of my head. Within the last 2 weeks,at most, I am noticing a sky rocketing loss of hair in front. At this rate I could be bald in front in a month. I don't get it. The only difference is being on the c60 regimen for a little over 2 months. It's freaking me out. Any thoughts? I don't think it is just me noticing the thinning more. It seems like I am going bald overnight.

[katzenjammer]

I thought I might throw a wild card in the mix. I have been taking c60 since late November approximating Turnbuckle's routine of 4 mg per week. I have had thinning hair for a couple of years now and I'm using minoxidil . Seems the minoxidil is working on the rear part of my head, don't know if it has slowed down or helped the loss on the front part of my head. Within the last 2 weeks,at most, I am noticing a sky rocketing loss of hair in front. At this rate I could be bald in front in a month. I don't get it. The only difference is being on the c60 regimen for a little over 2 months. It's freaking me out. Any thoughts? I don't think it is just me noticing the thinning more. It seems like I am going bald overnight.

Well, I suppose it could be a shed from the minox. That does happen. Also, some people for whatever reason don't seem to do well on minox, very much a minority though.

Whether c60 plays any role in optimizing your hormones - such as DHT - I cannot say.

I would stay away from systemic DHT inhibitors; I do belong to a private forum that is exploring various topical anti-androgens if you're interested.

[McQueen]

I could use any help offered. I'm not one of those people that would look ok bald. Some do. I am going to look pathetic. And, I'm a musician and,sad to say, appearance is part of the deal. KJ, pm me or post any info about this forum or salient info about it all. Thanks

Oh, what are systemic DHT inhibitors ?

[McQueen]

Ah, you probably mean Finisteride. (Sp?) Tried it for awhile but read too many bad things about it, so I stopped.

[katzenjammer]

I could use any help offered. I'm not one of those people that would look ok bald. Some do. I am going to look pathetic. And, I'm a musician and,sad to say, appearance is part of the deal. KJ, pm me or post any info about this forum or salient info about it all. Thanks

Oh, what are systemic DHT inhibitors ?

Yeah, I always wanted to be an orchestral conductor, but I just don't have the hair for it. Or, the talent, lol!!! :D

The connection between music and hair is a bit obscure to me, but it does seem to be true.

Anyway, I shall pm instructions to you.

Cheers,

~katz

p.s., yes I meant finasteride.

[hav]

One class of supplement often associated with hair loss are things with Nerve Growth Factor qualities. Wonder if c60 might have NGF effects. It does favor fatty tissues such as are found in nerve cells so it might be a possibility. Fwiw, hair loss effects of other NGF supplements like Lions Mane, Condonopsis, and ALCAR are reported to be temporary and mitigated by minoxidil. I've been occasionally using c60 in jojoba in my hair without any sign of hair loss. But I've also taken NGFs and didn't loose any hair from them either so that effect may depend on a predisposition to hair loss.

Howard

[thedarkbobo]

Bumping with new newbie questions:

- Do you know what kind of organs C60 enters? Every cell in every part of human body? What I have on mind is if it can for example reach and settle in brain(BBB)/liver/heart muscle/lungs?
- Are there any reports of reinforcing mechanism for example C60+ITTP(does that sound risky?), IP6, res?
[as noted on this page res+C60-OO+maybe niagen might work, is anyone testing such a combination?]

I am mainly interested in things that could possibly help to regenerate or slow degradation/aging of main organs...since failure of any results more or less in death. Since it improves muscle performance, and heart is kind of a muscle itself I was wondering what is effect on it, if any. I've seen some people tried it after reaching old age/critical health condition but honestly I'd rather do it before having a stroke etc.

Edited by thedarkbobo, 02 April 2014 - 02:24 PM.

[McQueen]

I wanted to let anyone know, who might be interested, I think I went over the top with former post about possible connection w C60 and seemingly expedited hair loss I seemed to have. I think a large part of what I saw was due to moving to a new house w new overhead lighting in the bathroom. Old bathroom had lighting mounted more forward. The new lighting exposed how thin my hair is getting. Or, in other words I'm an idiot.

[therein]

I have taken C60 for a week a couple of months ago and experienced erectile difficulties. I am posting it on this thread because this is the top thread that comes up when you Google c60 erectile problems. It seems someone on the first page brought his problems up and accused of being a troll but I can guarantee you that this is possible.

 

On the bright side, a week or two after stopping C60, ED disappears.

[niner]

I have taken C60 for a week a couple of months ago and experienced erectile difficulties. I am posting it on this thread because this is the top thread that comes up when you Google c60 erectile problems. It seems someone on the first page brought his problems up and accused of being a troll but I can guarantee you that this is possible.
 
On the bright side, a week or two after stopping C60, ED disappears.

 
Well, it's nice to hear that it disappears eventually.  I think that c60oo might be scavenging the free radical nitric oxide (NO), which is part of the signaling cascade that causes erections.  Viagra and other PDE5 inhibitors work by increasing the level of cGMP, the target of NO, presumably making low levels of NO more effective.  If your NO level were already on the edge, and you pulled it down further with c60oo, I could see that leading to temporary ED.  If this is in fact the mechanism, then a little Viagra should straighten things out. (ahem.)   Here's a paper about NO scavenging with a different fullerene molecule:
 

Nitric Oxide. 2004 Sep;11(2):201-7.
Nitric oxide-scavenging activity of polyhydroxylated fullerenol, C60(OH)24.
Mirkov SM1, Djordjevic AN, Andric NL, Andric SA, Kostic TS, Bogdanovic GM, Vojinovic-Miloradov MB, Kovacevic RZ.

Investigation of the possible nitric oxide-scavenging activity of hydroxylated derivative of fullerene, fullerenol C60(OH)24, demonstrated that it expressed direct scavenging activity toward nitric oxide radical (NO) liberated within solution of sodium nitroprusside (SNP), a well known NO donor. In parallel, pre-treatment (30') with intratesticular injection of fullerenol (60 microg/each testis) prevented NO-induced decrease of catalase, glutathione transferase and glutathione peroxidase activities in the denucleated fraction of interstitial testicular cells of adult rats 2 h after intratesticular injection of SNP (20 microg/each testis). In addition, fullerenol decreased formation of thiobarbituric acid-reactive substances (TBA-RS) with similar efficiency as butylated hydroxy toluen (BHT), a well known antioxidant. Also, fullerenol expressed certain scavenging activity toward superoxide anion (O2-) in xanthine/xanthine oxidase system. In summary, results obtained in this study confirmed free radical-scavenging activity of fullerenol, and according to our knowledge, it is the first evidence of direct NO-quenching activity of hydroxylated C60 derivative in different milieu.

PMID: 15491853

[therein]

 

I have taken C60 for a week a couple of months ago and experienced erectile difficulties. I am posting it on this thread because this is the top thread that comes up when you Google c60 erectile problems. It seems someone on the first page brought his problems up and accused of being a troll but I can guarantee you that this is possible.
 
On the bright side, a week or two after stopping C60, ED disappears.

 
Well, it's nice to hear that it disappears eventually.  I think that c60oo might be scavenging the free radical nitric oxide (NO), which is part of the signaling cascade that causes erections.  Viagra and other PDE5 inhibitors work by increasing the level of cGMP, the target of NO, presumably making low levels of NO more effective.  If your NO level were already on the edge, and you pulled it down further with c60oo, I could see that leading to temporary ED.  If this is in fact the mechanism, then a little Viagra should straighten things out. (ahem.)   Here's a paper about NO scavenging with a different fullerene molecule:
 

Nitric Oxide. 2004 Sep;11(2):201-7.
Nitric oxide-scavenging activity of polyhydroxylated fullerenol, C60(OH)24.
Mirkov SM1, Djordjevic AN, Andric NL, Andric SA, Kostic TS, Bogdanovic GM, Vojinovic-Miloradov MB, Kovacevic RZ.

Investigation of the possible nitric oxide-scavenging activity of hydroxylated derivative of fullerene, fullerenol C60(OH)24, demonstrated that it expressed direct scavenging activity toward nitric oxide radical (NO) liberated within solution of sodium nitroprusside (SNP), a well known NO donor. In parallel, pre-treatment (30') with intratesticular injection of fullerenol (60 microg/each testis) prevented NO-induced decrease of catalase, glutathione transferase and glutathione peroxidase activities in the denucleated fraction of interstitial testicular cells of adult rats 2 h after intratesticular injection of SNP (20 microg/each testis). In addition, fullerenol decreased formation of thiobarbituric acid-reactive substances (TBA-RS) with similar efficiency as butylated hydroxy toluen (BHT), a well known antioxidant. Also, fullerenol expressed certain scavenging activity toward superoxide anion (O2-) in xanthine/xanthine oxidase system. In summary, results obtained in this study confirmed free radical-scavenging activity of fullerenol, and according to our knowledge, it is the first evidence of direct NO-quenching activity of hydroxylated C60 derivative in different milieu.

PMID: 15491853

 

 

That makes perfect sense and it is similar to what I had been thinking as the mechanism behind the ED caused by C60oo. As far as I know NAC can also scavenge Nitric Oxide, causing ED.

 

This also would explain my hands getting colder more rapidly when walking outside in the cold. C60oo made it significantly worse and caused pain inside my palms when exposed to cold. C60oo scavenging NO probably caused limited adaptation to the cold since it indirectly limited vasodilation. 

 

It also explains Icariin fixing all my problems after a week of use, and its benefits continuing after cessation.

Edited by therein, 19 May 2014 - 01:11 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

On the bright side, a week or two after stopping C60, ED disappears.

 

More evidence that a week or two dosing schedule is appropriate.

[niner]

 

 

On the bright side, a week or two after stopping C60, ED disappears.

 

More evidence that a week or two dosing schedule is appropriate.

 

Well, that really depends on how much you take.  If you take a small enough dose, you could dose daily, if you want to.  (I don't know why one would, but some people see something they like in it)   In the two people who have reported an ED problem, it lasted long enough that it can't be blamed on free circulating c60oo.  The membrane-bound pool must be able to cause the problem.  I think this ED effect is similar to the muscle fatigue effect, which also involves free radical signaling molecules.  I found that when I stopped dosing, the muscle fatigue effect fell off more quickly than the endurance effect, suggesting that there is a dose that will provide at least some of the benefits of c60oo without ED. 

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

 

On the bright side, a week or two after stopping C60, ED disappears.

 

More evidence that a week or two dosing schedule is appropriate.

 

Well, that really depends on how much you take.  If you take a small enough dose, you could dose daily, if you want to.  (I don't know why one would, but some people see something they like in it)   In the two people who have reported an ED problem, it lasted long enough that it can't be blamed on free circulating c60oo.  The membrane-bound pool must be able to cause the problem.  I think this ED effect is similar to the muscle fatigue effect, which also involves free radical signaling molecules.  I found that when I stopped dosing, the muscle fatigue effect fell off more quickly than the endurance effect, suggesting that there is a dose that will provide at least some of the benefits of c60oo without ED. 

 

 

I haven't noticed any ED in 2 years, so perhaps this is a borderline effect with some people. Perhaps they have an elevated level of free hemoglobin as well, which scavenges NO. If so, donating blood might correct the problem.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 19 May 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[therein]

 

 

 

 

On the bright side, a week or two after stopping C60, ED disappears.

 

More evidence that a week or two dosing schedule is appropriate.

 

Well, that really depends on how much you take.  If you take a small enough dose, you could dose daily, if you want to.  (I don't know why one would, but some people see something they like in it)   In the two people who have reported an ED problem, it lasted long enough that it can't be blamed on free circulating c60oo.  The membrane-bound pool must be able to cause the problem.  I think this ED effect is similar to the muscle fatigue effect, which also involves free radical signaling molecules.  I found that when I stopped dosing, the muscle fatigue effect fell off more quickly than the endurance effect, suggesting that there is a dose that will provide at least some of the benefits of c60oo without ED. 

 

 

I haven't noticed any ED in 2 years, so perhaps this is a borderline effect with some people. Perhaps they have an elevated level of free hemoglobin as well, which scavenges NO. If so, donating blood might correct the problem.

 

 

Wouldn't elevated hemoglobin have desirable effects, though? Maybe it is an adaptation that the individual's body developed to fight lower lung capacity or just bad breathing habits.

Edited by therein, 19 May 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[katzenjammer]

I wanted to let anyone know, who might be interested, I think I went over the top with former post about possible connection w C60 and seemingly expedited hair loss I seemed to have. I think a large part of what I saw was due to moving to a new house w new overhead lighting in the bathroom. Old bathroom had lighting mounted more forward. The new lighting exposed how thin my hair is getting. Or, in other words I'm an idiot.

It is well established that harsh overhead lighting is a leading cause of MPB in men. Dim lighting is a very cost effective cure.

[tintinet]

 

I wanted to let anyone know, who might be interested, I think I went over the top with former post about possible connection w C60 and seemingly expedited hair loss I seemed to have. I think a large part of what I saw was due to moving to a new house w new overhead lighting in the bathroom. Old bathroom had lighting mounted more forward. The new lighting exposed how thin my hair is getting. Or, in other words I'm an idiot.

It is well established that harsh overhead lighting is a leading cause of MPB in men. Dim lighting is a very cost effective cure.

 

 

Or just wear a hat?

[katzenjammer]

 

I wanted to let anyone know, who might be interested, I think I went over the top with former post about possible connection w C60 and seemingly expedited hair loss I seemed to have. I think a large part of what I saw was due to moving to a new house w new overhead lighting in the bathroom. Old bathroom had lighting mounted more forward. The new lighting exposed how thin my hair is getting. Or, in other words I'm an idiot.

It is well established that harsh overhead lighting is a leading cause of MPB in men. Dim lighting is a very cost effective cure.
 

 
Or just wear a hat?

When i see peer reviewed studies supporting this, I'll consider this radical Hat Therapy concept. Until then its dim lights for moi.

[katzenjammer]

How do we interpret these sort of studies that apparently seem to suggest that increasing ROS within the mitochondria increased longevity?  

 

http://www.scienceda...40508121245.htm

 

http://www.nbr.co.nz...ustry-die-56623

 

etc..?