64 replies to this topic

[katzenjammer]

I'm very interested in hearing from people who have been taking C60 for some time.

1. Presumably, if you're taking c60, you have assessed the risks, whether short term or long term, in some manner. Or are you just guinea-pigging yourself?

NB: I'm not making a judgement, I've been known to do the same, just wondering about your thought processes. I'm assuming you're seeing some benefits from it; or expect to.

2. Have any of you who are taking C60 also taken Nr at some point? Nr = NIAGEN™ Nicotinamide Riboside, http://hpnformula1.c.../products/nr/

I am asking this because there are possibly some overlap in its (theoretical) physiological effects; and so I am wondering how you would compare/contrast them? Either from a personal use perspective or a theoretical one? Do you consider them synergistic or not?

Thanks & cheers to all,

~katz

Edited by katzenjammer, 05 January 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[katzenjammer]

Sorry, perhaps I shouldn't have included the link to the product. That might be perceived as marketing - I have zero financial interest in the above compound. I couldn't possibly be a marketer - too clumsy with my words, lol.

[niner]

My risk assessment of c60 involved studying the Baati paper, going into the literature to find the results of other c60 compounds in various species, and carefully keeping track of all the reports here from people who were using it. I also looked into the chemistry of c60 and its reaction with triglycerides, and got a sense of what the active species was. I read a lot of c60 toxicology papers. Given the totality of this, I ultimately came to the conclusion that it was something I wanted to try. I didn't feel like a Guinea Pig, because so many people had gone before me. Maybe I felt more like a participant in a Phase II trial, but "without a net", since I wasn't being carefully monitored by clinicians or getting lab work done. I haven't tried NR yet. It will be interesting to see how it combines with c60. Mechanistically, I think they are different.

[katzenjammer]

Thanks Niner, that's very helpful. Btw, I really like your posts - always highly informative and thoughtful.

[tintinet]

Just guinea pigging myself, again. Life is one big experiment! I'm only slightly kidding, unfortunately, but I've already taken megadose resveratrol, vitamin C, and tried many other supplements, so something comprised mostly of olive oil seemed like a decent bet. I just started taking Niagen this very morning. I feel well, energetic, alert, but that could just be normal variation and/or placebo effect. I've been taking C60 EVOO for about a year and a half, but I don't think I've gotten any younger during that period. I like the taste, though, and, as I've remarked in other threads, it seems to enhance my sleep.

[Volcanic]

Just guinea pigging myself, again. Life is one big experiment! I'm only slightly kidding, unfortunately, but I've already taken megadose resveratrol, vitamin C, and tried many other supplements, so something comprised mostly of olive oil seemed like a decent bet. I just started taking Niagen this very morning. I feel well, energetic, alert, but that could just be normal variation and/or placebo effect. I've been taking C60 EVOO for about a year and a half, but I don't think I've gotten any younger during that period. I like the taste, though, and, as I've remarked in other threads, it seems to enhance my sleep.

Just want to say to all the "guinea pigs" out there - thanks! I doubt you're doing this for purely altruistic reasons, but we're all learning something. I haven't tried C60oo myself, but I'm slowly getting comfortable with the idea of putting an industrial carbon nanoparticle into my body for health reasons. I wouldn't have said that a year ago.

I hope you get great results from NR. And that the price comes down a bit.

[katzenjammer]

Two more questions....and I hope they aren't the "we've-answered-this-a-million-times" type questions.

1. Do we know - in rats at least - if all the buckyballs are excreted? Do we know how long this takes?

2. Has anyone on this board done a pre and post-comparision via a hormone panel, metabolic panel, BP/vitals, etc?

[niner]

Two more questions....and I hope they aren't the "we've-answered-this-a-million-times" type questions.

1. Do we know - in rats at least - if all the buckyballs are excreted? Do we know how long this takes?

2. Has anyone on this board done a pre and post-comparision via a hormone panel, metabolic panel, BP/vitals, etc?

The ultimate metabolic fate of any compound is a lot of work to determine, and as far as I know it hasn't been done for c60-oo. Moussa's group did some basic pharmacokinetics, in which the concentration of c60-oo in blood was monitored over time (in rats). It decreases on a time scale of hours. The question is, where is it going? At least some of it is likely to partition into membranes, as the c60-fatty acid adduct is the right shape, size, and hydrophobicity to become part of a membrane, where it would be quite stable and would be expected to reside for a long time. This is consistent with observations that c60-oo effects last a long time, although they do eventually recede if you don't take more. A lot of people take advantage of this by stretching out the dosing interval to anywhere from a week to a month. Obviously, the longer the interval, the larger the dose should be.

There's been some pre/post blood work; I don't recall anything startling. One of the best comparisons was done by MikefromNaples, who carefully monitored his performance on a lifting + cardio workout routine over a number of days pre- and post-c60. He saw a large positive effect.

[hav]

Still hoping for some sort of post mortem Baati supplemental report that might clarify how much c60, if any, was found in tissues of the treated animals after they eventually died. So far all we've heard was Dr Moussa mentioning in Anthony's video interview that all 6 treated animals died tumor-free compared to all 12 controls dying with tumors present.

That circumstance suggests a c60 protective effect due to its continued presence from month 15 (or is it 17?), when treatment ceased, until the last treated animal died in month 66. More than 4 years. Which might also represent only the minimum for guessing retention in an animal with a longer lifespan and/or slower metabolism.

Howard

[katzenjammer]

Two more questions....and I hope they aren't the "we've-answered-this-a-million-times" type questions.

1. Do we know - in rats at least - if all the buckyballs are excreted? Do we know how long this takes?

2. Has anyone on this board done a pre and post-comparision via a hormone panel, metabolic panel, BP/vitals, etc?

The ultimate metabolic fate of any compound is a lot of work to determine, and as far as I know it hasn't been done for c60-oo. Moussa's group did some basic pharmacokinetics, in which the concentration of c60-oo in blood was monitored over time (in rats). It decreases on a time scale of hours. The question is, where is it going? At least some of it is likely to partition into membranes, as the c60-fatty acid adduct is the right shape, size, and hydrophobicity to become part of a membrane, where it would be quite stable and would be expected to reside for a long time. This is consistent with observations that c60-oo effects last a long time, although they do eventually recede if you don't take more. A lot of people take advantage of this by stretching out the dosing interval to anywhere from a week to a month. Obviously, the longer the interval, the larger the dose should be.

There's been some pre/post blood work; I don't recall anything startling. One of the best comparisons was done by MikefromNaples, who carefully monitored his performance on a lifting + cardio workout routine over a number of days pre- and post-c60. He saw a large positive effect.

Thanks ever so much Niner.

I also am reading people putting the olive oil preparation on the skin - isn't olive oil a very poor vehicle for the skin in terms of 1. penetration and that it's 2. moderately comedogenic, which is a concern for the face particularly?

[DaveyP]

Hi, i have been taking c60 for just over a week. From Vaughtner wellnes, so high quality i assume.

I have experienced some noticeable benefits in the gym- lifting 10 % heavier. Also mental clarity. and sleeping much less, although not sure if I am happy about this as completley positive yet.

although one big problem- it has given me extreme erectile dysfunction which I have never had an issue with before. And by extrme i mean i cannot get a full erection at any time now. Also libido isnt very high on this, although I thought it was supposed to increase from other reposrts. So obviosuly I will be taking a bit of a break now, until all the machinery is working again. But I would like to know if anyone can explain this, and if it is likely to be a temporary thing that my body will adjust to the c60, or if just c60 is not for me?

thanks

[resting]

I have taken C60 for many months and have not had ED or any loss of libido but have had the other positive responses reported.
Have you completed the poll as your experience needs to be added.

[niner]

although one big problem- it has given me extreme erectile dysfunction which I have never had an issue with before. And by extrme i mean i cannot get a full erection at any time now. Also libido isnt very high on this, although I thought it was supposed to increase from other reposrts. So obviosuly I will be taking a bit of a break now, until all the machinery is working again. But I would like to know if anyone can explain this, and if it is likely to be a temporary thing that my body will adjust to the c60, or if just c60 is not for me?

This is the first report of extreme erectile dysfunction. 57 males answered this poll on c60 effects, and one reported weaker erections. One (different) person reported reduced libido.

[aribadabar]

If mumijo/shilajit allegedly has some C60 in it, how can we find out what is the C60 content /percentage in shilajit?

[niner]

If mumijo/shilajit allegedly has some C60 in it, how can we find out what is the C60 content /percentage in shilajit?

It's an analytical chemistry problem. It sounds like shilajit is a messy complex mixture. Probably contains both soluble and insoluble fractions. Laser desorption mass spec would probably work, but that's not something that people tend to have around the house. It would be interesting if the active ingredient in shilajit were c60, but there's probably other active components as well.

[DaveyP]

I have been off the c60 for a week now, and am still having significant erectile dysfunction issues. Im m 33, in good health nd train weight- just or some background. It isn't as bad a s the last few days when was on c60,but I cant get a full hard erection, maintain one for very long. I now c0 is out of the blood after 4 days,but it remains in the tissues for uh longer- how long is the chemical effect, that is causing my likey to last- when will the c60 dissipate enough to not have a significant effect anymore (I ok 1.5mg per day for 10ays). So after 1month should it al be gone? see some people take monthly doses s assume it is because it can last in the body having significant effects for a month?
Please give detailed answers as obviously this is a stressful ocurrence for me

Edited by DaveyP, 14 February 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[platypus]

I have been off the c60 for a week now, and am still having significant erectile dysfunction issues. Im m 33, in good health nd train weight- just or some background. It isn't as bad a s the last few days when was on c60,but I cant get a full hard erection, maintain one for very long. I now c0 is out of the blood after 4 days,but it remains in the tissues for uh longer- how long is the chemical effect, that is causing my likey to last- when will the c60 dissipate enough to not have a significant effect anymore (I ok 1.5mg per day for 10ays). So after 1month should it al be gone? see some people take monthly doses s assume it is because it can last in the body having significant effects for a month?
Please give detailed answers as obviously this is a stressful ocurrence for me

Troll.

[markymark]

snip

"Troll"


Aye, this came into my mind as well.

[DaveyP]

I'm not a troll. You can verify with Sara Vaughter that I have contacted her about this problem. If someone reports a problem with your magic bullet cure al product, an you immediately accuse them of being a troll you need to wake up and join the real world.Why don't you google c60 vasomotor dysfunction and you will see there is a rat study relating to issues of this nature. its a real problem d want real advice as to how long I can expect it to last.

[niner]

Sorry DaveyP. We've had a troll frequenting this site for about a year. His M.O. is to report some horrible outcome from a compound that people are taking. This sort of fit the pattern, but only sort of. I don't think you are a troll.

The vasomotor effects that I saw from a brief search are different fullerene analogs than the one that we're using, but it's been seen in several c60 compounds, so it's certainly not something I could dismiss out of hand. I don't remember anyone reporting any pressor effects from c60-oo, either positive or negative, but I might be forgetting something.

You could try a little Viagra or other boner meds to tide you over until it wears off, if it's being caused by the c60. Assuming it is, and considering the dose you used, you might have a few weeks until the tentpole reappears. Hang in there...

[markymark]

Hm, DaveyP
I think it is understandable to think of the possibility of a Troll, if somebody comes in here, with only two Posts and an alarmistic style....
And if something spontaniously comes into your mind, you cannot do something against it ;-).
However, I have no Problem to apologize. But again, I did not call you a Troll. It was just a mental-automatic Troll-alert;-).

I wish you that your issue clears up
mm

PS:

http://www.longecity...ealth-benefits/
#24: "Noticing better erections, and an over all feeling of better health, more optimistic, lighter on my feet. (combining with low dose MB)"

[stephen_b]

For men's health I can recommend arginine + pycnogenol (taken before bed to improve circulation during the night). Works like a charm. Helps with general vasolidation, so exercise recovery gets benefited too. See PMID 21618639.

[Turnbuckle]

Why don't you google c60 vasomotor dysfunction and you will see there is a rat study relating to issues of this nature. its a real problem d want real advice as to how long I can expect it to last.

If the paper you found was this one, it doesn't seem all that relevant, as the C60 was in the form of large particles (typically >1 micron) in water, given by injection. That said, the authors point to oxidative stress as the likely cause of the observed dysfunction, and oxidative stress is also associated with ED. Since C60 is known to locate in the mitochondria and is believed to enhance its function (thereby creating more ROS), you might try supplementing with the main mitochondrial antioxidant--glutathione. I take a gram of reduced glutathione and 3 grams of C every day with good results (though I'm not taking it for ED).

The reduced form of glutathione (GSH) is the most important cell antioxidant and is also an essential cofactor for nitric oxide (NO) synthase that synthesizes NO from l-arginine. Reduced levels of GSH, due both to a hyperglycaemia-induced increase of free radical production and to a decrease of NADPH levels [like in diabetes mellitus (DM)], can hamper the endothelial cell functions. This condition may play an important role in the aetiology of some clinical signs, like erectile dysfunction (ED).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15910541

[DaveyP]

I thought c60 was supposed to be an ROS scavenger, not increase ROS. Most of you don't seem to think it is possible that the c60 could cause this problem. The only other possibility is that it is an accumulation of something else I have been taking over a tipping point. I have been on 1200mg of caprylic acid, and 10 undecenoic acid for 2-3 months to clear out candida and did lufenuron a few weeks before that). I have also been on forskolin with tyrosine and glutamine (5mg) for those 2-3 months. I cant find anything saying any of these things could cause erectile dysfunction, plus it was very sudden and very dramatic, not gradual, so ?I believe the c60 has interefered with some type of hormone pathway.

[niner]

C60 in the form of large particles is completely different than the form it has in c60-oo. In the latter, it's not only dissolved down to the level of individual molecules, but it also reacts with the fatty acids in the olive oil, forming an entirely new compound. The large particle version is pro-oxidant and causes all sorts of problems.

Davey, you have a lot of polypharmacy going on. Maybe there was a reaction between c60 and something else you're taking. I'm particularly suspicious of the undecenoic acid, which would be expected to react with c60, although TBH I don't see why the product of that reaction, should it occur, would cause ED. At any rate, there are a lot of variables and unknowns here. Maybe try again down the line after the candida therapy is over?

[xEva]

I also find this statement strange:

Since C60 is known to locate in the mitochondria and is believed to enhance its function (thereby creating more ROS), ...

improved mitochondrial function is supposed to generate less ROS. Old, dysfunctional mitochondria are known for their ROS reneration. To say that enhanced mitos function equates more ROS is very strange indeed. Was is a typo?

[markymark]

@ DaveyP
well at least the hydrated C60formula was able to protect rats' reproductive systems against Streptozotocin-induced (diabetes) damage :-).
best
MM


Toxicology. 2011 Apr 11;282(3):69-81. doi: 10.1016/j.tox.2010.12.003. Epub 2010 Dec 14.
Protective effects of nanostructures of hydrated C(60) fullerene on reproductive function in streptozotocin-diabetic male rats.

Bal R, Türk G, Tuzcu M, Yilmaz O, Ozercan I, Kuloglu T, Gür S, Nedzvetsky VS, Tykhomyrov AA, Andrievsky GV, Baydas G, Naziroglu M.

Author information

Abstract

Diabetes mellitus is a well-recognized cause of male sexual dysfunction and impairments of male fertility. Streptozotocin (STZ) is used for medical treatment of neoplastic islet β-cells of pancreas and producing of animal model of diabetes mellitus type 1 that is characterized by suppression of reproductive activity due to the hyperglycaemia-induced oxidative stress and histopathological alterations in testes. Seeking for the agents that could alleviate diabetes-induced damage to reproductive system is yet the important area of inquiry. The present study was designed to evaluate whether hydrated C(60) fullerene (C(60)HyFn), which is known to be powerful bioantioxidant, eliminate testicular dysfunction induced by STZ-diabetes in rats. Wistar strain male albino rats were divided into four groups of six animals each: (1) control group, (2) C(60)HyFn-treated nondiabetic group, (3) STZ-diabetic group and (4) C(60)HyFn-treated diabetic group. Once hyperglycaemia was induced by STZ, rats in the second and fourth groups were treated with C(60)HyFn (in the form of drinking water) at the dose of 4μg/kg daily for 5 weeks. In diabetic rats, relative weights of right cauda epididymis, seminal vesicles, prostate, sperm motility and epididymal sperm concentration were significantly less than those of control group, but which were restored in the fourth group treated with C(60)HyFn (p<0.001). In hematoxylin and eosin staining, marked histopathological changes including degeneration, desquamation, disorganisation and reduction in germinal cells, interstitial oedema and congestion were evident in the testis of diabetic rats, but C(60)HyFn treatment resulted in recovery of histopathological changes and an increase in Johnsen's testicular score significantly (p<0.001). C(60)HyFn treatment restores the increased apoptosis induced by STZ-diabetes. In diabetic rats, levels of serum testosterone, testicular reduced glutathione (GSH) and alpha-tocopherol were significantly reduced and testicular lipid peroxidation level was increased (p<0.001). Nevertheless, treatment of diabetic rats with C(60)HyFn resulted in significant corrective effects on these parameters towards the control levels. C(60)HyFn, applied alone, did not exert any toxic effects in testicular tissues. Furthermore, C(60)HyFn treatment in diabetic and nondiabetic rats resulted in considerable elevations of some important polyunsaturated fatty acids. In conclusion, we have presented for the first time substantial evidence that administration of C(60)HyFn significantly reduces diabetes-induced oxidative stress and associated complications such as testicular dysfunction and spermatogenic disruption.

[Turnbuckle]

I also find this statement strange:

Since C60 is known to locate in the mitochondria and is believed to enhance its function (thereby creating more ROS), ...

improved mitochondrial function is supposed to generate less ROS. Old, dysfunctional mitochondria are known for their ROS reneration. To say that enhanced mitos function equates more ROS is very strange indeed. Was is a typo?

Mitochondria produce ROS in producing ATP, and both tend to decrease with age while the ratio stays the more or less the same.

In this study, ATP synthesis was significantly decreased in older subjects, supporting the concept that aging is associated with a decrease in mitochondrial function...In fact, the ROS/ATP production ratio, which reflects the number of ROS molecules generated during the production of one ATP molecule, were similar in younger and older individuals, indicating that differences in ROS production between groups are a function of the decreased ATP synthesis rate.

http://diabetes.diab.../60/8/2051.full

So if you boost the ATP production, you will likely also boost the ROS production.

In fact, reducing ROS without also reducing ATP has not yet been accomplished (as of 2010)--

Remarkably, we know very little about the specific mechanisms and sites of ROS production in mitochondria. There has been much recent interest, but there is controversy and disagreement, with different research groups favoring different sites (center 'o' in complex III, the Q-binding site in complex I, the flavin in complex I, or upstream dehydrogenases of the citric acid cycle). In this study we will identify the specific mitochondrial sites that produce ROS in cells.

There are currently no successful strategies to decrease ROS production at these sites without also compromising ATP production.

http://www.ellisonfo...synthesis-cells

So if you are using a protocol to increase ATP you will also likely increase ROS, and there's not much you can do about it except boost your mitochondria's primary anti-oxidant defenses, and that's why I take reduced glutathione and C, as noted in my previous post.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 February 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[niner]

So if you boost the ATP production, you will likely also boost the ROS production.

In fact, reducing ROS without also reducing ATP has not yet been accomplished (as of 2010)--

Remarkably, we know very little about the specific mechanisms and sites of ROS production in mitochondria. There has been much recent interest, but there is controversy and disagreement, with different research groups favoring different sites (center 'o' in complex III, the Q-binding site in complex I, the flavin in complex I, or upstream dehydrogenases of the citric acid cycle). In this study we will identify the specific mitochondrial sites that produce ROS in cells.

There are currently no successful strategies to decrease ROS production at these sites without also compromising ATP production.

http://www.ellisonfo...synthesis-cells

This is where I think c60 is different than everything that has come before. It appears to be improving mitochondrial function, based on the way people respond to exercise or hypoxic conditions. This presumably means more ATP. It also appears to be decreasing the level of ROS, based on its effect on muscle fatigue, along with its in vitro chemistry as a SOD mimetic and ability to accept and stabilize multiple electrons ("free radical sponge").

[Turnbuckle]

Another thought--the problem DaveyP has might be magnesium related. Magnesium is needed for ATP and magnesium deficiency is involved in some cases of ED. So if he was borderline already from taking caprylic acid without magnesium, then C60 might have pushed him over the edge by spurring ATP production. In which case something like magnesium malate ought to fix it.