185 replies to this topic

[ScienceGuy]

As suggested by YADAYADA I have started a new thread for the open discussion of everything relating to BPAP, including the current Group Buy, and for participants to post feedback and details regarding their experiences.

[ZHMike]

Great thread, i was lurking the other thread but there is a password on it now? any details would be appreciated!

[ScienceGuy]

Great thread, i was lurking the other thread but there is a password on it now? any details would be appreciated!

I am sure that you are not the only one!

What does everyone think about the other thread becoming password protected? Good? Bad? Thoughts?

[sparkk51]

I just want to know the password. I am a member of the group buy.

[Metagene]

It's ultimately bad for a public forum such as this one. I understand that yada probably wants to ameliorate some friction within the BPAP thread but it's not a long term solution.

[ScienceGuy]

I just want to know the password. I am a member of the group buy.

You are a member of the Group Buy and haven't been told what the password is?

I recommend that you send a PM to YADAYADA asking him to tell you what is the password

It's ultimately bad for a public forum such as this one. I understand that yada probably wants to ameliorate some friction within the BPAP thread but it's not a long term solution.

In my opinion, some of the anger towards YADAYADA is somewhat misdirected and it is my understanding that his supplier has in fact let him down regards both quantity and purity of the BPAP; and as such he has been let down by the supplier just as much as everyone else, and this is something that was beyond his control. Whilst it is clear his people / communication skills could do with a bit of polishing, personally I do not think he is the 'bad guy' here... I think his intentions have been and are in the right place.

Even so, I do not think password locking the thread is the answer... IMO all the information and discussions contained therein should remain in the public domain and fully accessible by everyone... that is kind of the whole point of a public forum like this isn't it?

I hope after he cools down a bit, YADAYADA realizes that there are many people here who very much appreciate his efforts in organizing group buys and that he decides to remove the password off of the thread.

That's just my opinion.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 14 January 2014 - 07:09 PM.

[Multicultural Harmony]

Metabolic homeostasis is probably what regulates the shit we attempt to address via 'nootropics', antidepressants, cognitive decline, etc. It is pretty much the central regulator in all things and also tied to circadian rhythms. The only problem is the system is central to all the other gunk i dont have time to read about, nor is it known what is 'central' to this centralized system besides vague reference to chromatin..

p785/977 fukn reading

[Reformed-Redan]

I'll soon be giving selegiline+BPAP a combo. Might be a double whammy. I've been impressed by my results with BPAP so far, selegiline+BPAP will be my new amph substitute if it works out.

[Multicultural Harmony]

I'll soon be giving selegiline+BPAP a combo. Might be a double whammy. I've been impressed by my results with BPAP so far, selegiline+BPAP will be my new amph substitute if it works out.

eww

seems like a bad combo, esp if you've had to call the ambulance to pick you up from a panic attack before, if i remember correct?

[Reformed-Redan]

I'll soon be giving selegiline+BPAP a combo. Might be a double whammy. I've been impressed by my results with BPAP so far, selegiline+BPAP will be my new amph substitute if it works out.

eww

seems like a bad combo, esp if you've had to call the ambulance to pick you up from a panic attack before, if i remember correct?

Thank you for your concern. lol

[uralsky]

Today discovered that the original thread is password protected and restricted to the group buy members. I guess to get the password I have to PM yadayada. I dont like this as it would restrict discussion to a narrow group. Besides yadayada himself has switched to this new thread. So I post here to.
reporting my experiences.
I have received 23 mL of BPAP solution in DMSO at presumed concentration of 300 ug/mL, which makes total 7 mg BPAP.
Expected recommended dose is 100 ug or 333 uL.
Solution is supplied in a dropper bottle. Testing the dropper gives a weight of 10 drops = 258 mg. Considering density of DMSO is 1.1 this makes the volume of one drop = 23.5 uL thus containing ~7 ug BPAP. To dose 100 ug one needs 14 drops.
That was what I started with.
Dissolved it in small amount of water and swallowed.
Did not notice any particular effect other then bad smell persisting for couple days.
Following days tried reduced doses down up to 2 drops (14 ug). Smell was negligible but so other effects. One drop under the tong gave me not pleasant aftertaste for few hours potentially masking expected stimulating effect.
In retrospect I suspect the heated debate on the original thread could have contributed to my failing to experiencing of desired effects.
Unfortunately as I found I do not tolerate well DMSO. Pure DMSO is supposed to be odorless. Certain bacteria transform DMSO under hypoxic conditions into dimethyl sulfide (DMS) that has a strong disagreeable odor, similar to rotten cabbage.
So I decided to remove DMSO and replace it with other more tolerable solvent.
I was successful in drying out DMSO under vacuum in several smaller size vials. After drying there was a brown residue left supposedly BPAP. It is readily soluble in ethyl alcohol.
Ran RP HPLC. I cannot confirm the identity of the compound. But can say that I see more foreign contaminants by mass than the active compound itself. That is probably why it is brown in color. I am hesitant now whether I should continue with testing the BPAP I got.
Other than to test it by LC-MS one could compare it to other sourced BPAP. Vitaspace for example sells BPAP 8 mg for $150, which is cheaper than what I paid. I anyone buys there please let us know what is your experience with it. What form they provide it in, and how they deal with the stability issue?

[Multicultural Harmony]

Research chems are overrated. BEst to wait for clinical trials done by professionals.

[ScienceGuy]

Today discovered that the original thread is password protected and restricted to the group buy members. I guess to get the password I have to PM yadayada. I dont like this as it would restrict discussion to a narrow group. Besides yadayada himself has switched to this new thread. So I post here...

...I decided to remove DMSO and replace it with other more tolerable solvent.
I was successful in drying out DMSO under vacuum in several smaller size vials. After drying there was a brown residue left supposedly BPAP. It is readily soluble in ethyl alcohol.
Ran RP HPLC. I cannot confirm the identity of the compound. But can say that I see more foreign contaminants by mass than the active compound itself...

Personally I cannot fathom why on earth the supplier chose to firstly ship the product as a liquid as opposed to a powder; and secondly to use DMSO (of all things!) as a SOLVENT / PRESERVATIVE... utterly insane and nonsensical if you ask me... it's a potential NEUROTOXIN... see this for example:

Neurobiol Dis. 2009 Apr;34(1):1-10. doi: 10.1016/j.nbd.2008.11.006. Epub 2008 Dec 3.

Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) produces widespread apoptosis in the developing central nervous system.

Hanslick JL, Lau K, Noguchi KK, Olney JW, Zorumski CF, Mennerick S, Farber NB.
Author information

Abstract
Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a solvent that is routinely used as a cryopreservative in allogous bone marrow and organ transplantation. We exposed C57Bl/6 mice of varying postnatal ages (P0-P30) to DMSO in order to study whether DMSO could produce apoptotic degeneration in the developing CNS. DMSO produced widespread apoptosis in the developing mouse brain at all ages tested. Damage was greatest at P7. Significant elevations above the background rate of apoptosis occurred at the lowest dose tested, 0.3 ml/kg. In an in vitro rat hippocampal culture preparation, DMSO produced neuronal loss at concentrations of 0.5% and 1.0%. The ability of DMSO to damage neurons in dissociated cultures indicates that the toxicity likely results from a direct cellular effect. Because children, who undergo bone marrow transplantation, are routinely exposed to DMSO at doses higher than 0.3 ml/kg, there is concern that DMSO might be producing similar damage in human children.

PMID: 19100327

Edited by ScienceGuy, 15 January 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[Q did it!]

Today discovered that the original thread is password protected and restricted to the group buy members. I guess to get the password I have to PM yadayada. I dont like this as it would restrict discussion to a narrow group. Besides yadayada himself has switched to this new thread. So I post here...

...I decided to remove DMSO and replace it with other more tolerable solvent.
I was successful in drying out DMSO under vacuum in several smaller size vials. After drying there was a brown residue left supposedly BPAP. It is readily soluble in ethyl alcohol.
Ran RP HPLC. I cannot confirm the identity of the compound. But can say that I see more foreign contaminants by mass than the active compound itself...

Personally I cannot fathom why on earth the supplier chose to firstly ship the product as a liquid as opposed to a powder; and secondly to use DMSO (of all things!) as a SOLVENT / PRESERVATIVE... utterly insane and nonsensical if you ask me... it's a potential NEUROTOXIN... see this for example:

Neurobiol Dis. 2009 Apr;34(1):1-10. doi: 10.1016/j.nbd.2008.11.006. Epub 2008 Dec 3.

Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) produces widespread apoptosis in the developing central nervous system.

Hanslick JL, Lau K, Noguchi KK, Olney JW, Zorumski CF, Mennerick S, Farber NB.
Author information

Abstract
Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a solvent that is routinely used as a cryopreservative in allogous bone marrow and organ transplantation. We exposed C57Bl/6 mice of varying postnatal ages (P0-P30) to DMSO in order to study whether DMSO could produce apoptotic degeneration in the developing CNS. DMSO produced widespread apoptosis in the developing mouse brain at all ages tested. Damage was greatest at P7. Significant elevations above the background rate of apoptosis occurred at the lowest dose tested, 0.3 ml/kg. In an in vitro rat hippocampal culture preparation, DMSO produced neuronal loss at concentrations of 0.5% and 1.0%. The ability of DMSO to damage neurons in dissociated cultures indicates that the toxicity likely results from a direct cellular effect. Because children, who undergo bone marrow transplantation, are routinely exposed to DMSO at doses higher than 0.3 ml/kg, there is concern that DMSO might be producing similar damage in human children.

PMID: 19100327

When I originally agreed to help with the shipping (not a part of the buy) I was under the impression I was going to me re-mailing powder. Which is much eraser to get past customs then a brown amber bottle with fluid in it.

I did try the fluid twice 1 drop both times and noticed nothing particular. If it was stimulating my normal stack was by far overshadowing it. Other than that I don't have much to add to this discussion then whats already been said by everyone else...

[Citrus Bolt]

I was also in the group buy and never received the password. Please PM me yada

[lourdaud]

I just received my two vials and took 14 drops and god be damned but this seems to be working. I was playing some FPS games earlier and I was more in the zone than usual and also felt more confident when talking on the mic to the other players.
Placebo can't be ruled out of course BUT my pupils are dilated! I'm also on bupropion so there's probably some nice synergy going on (lol hope this is safe). Can't wait to try BPAP with modafinil as selegiline and moda always coupled nicely for me.

Edit: Also noticed increased anger while playing.

Edited by lourdaud, 15 January 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[Werper]

If anyone wants my Vial they can have it, I paid $200.00, I will let it go for $100.00. Many things I am not liking including the DMSO factor.


I took only small little bit for taste, probably not even a drop.

[lourdaud]

It's 6 h since I took it and I can still feel it. It's definitely dopaminergic.
Pupils still dilated.

[sparkk51]

Today discovered that the original thread is password protected and restricted to the group buy members. I guess to get the password I have to PM yadayada. I dont like this as it would restrict discussion to a narrow group. Besides yadayada himself has switched to this new thread. So I post here...

...I decided to remove DMSO and replace it with other more tolerable solvent.
I was successful in drying out DMSO under vacuum in several smaller size vials. After drying there was a brown residue left supposedly BPAP. It is readily soluble in ethyl alcohol.
Ran RP HPLC. I cannot confirm the identity of the compound. But can say that I see more foreign contaminants by mass than the active compound itself...

Personally I cannot fathom why on earth the supplier chose to firstly ship the product as a liquid as opposed to a powder; and secondly to use DMSO (of all things!) as a SOLVENT / PRESERVATIVE... utterly insane and nonsensical if you ask me... it's a potential NEUROTOXIN... see this for example:

Neurobiol Dis. 2009 Apr;34(1):1-10. doi: 10.1016/j.nbd.2008.11.006. Epub 2008 Dec 3.

Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) produces widespread apoptosis in the developing central nervous system.

Hanslick JL, Lau K, Noguchi KK, Olney JW, Zorumski CF, Mennerick S, Farber NB.
Author information

Abstract
Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a solvent that is routinely used as a cryopreservative in allogous bone marrow and organ transplantation. We exposed C57Bl/6 mice of varying postnatal ages (P0-P30) to DMSO in order to study whether DMSO could produce apoptotic degeneration in the developing CNS. DMSO produced widespread apoptosis in the developing mouse brain at all ages tested. Damage was greatest at P7. Significant elevations above the background rate of apoptosis occurred at the lowest dose tested, 0.3 ml/kg. In an in vitro rat hippocampal culture preparation, DMSO produced neuronal loss at concentrations of 0.5% and 1.0%. The ability of DMSO to damage neurons in dissociated cultures indicates that the toxicity likely results from a direct cellular effect. Because children, who undergo bone marrow transplantation, are routinely exposed to DMSO at doses higher than 0.3 ml/kg, there is concern that DMSO might be producing similar damage in human children.

PMID: 19100327

Though it is worrying, Isn't 6 drops per day waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less than .3 ml/kg?

[Reformed-Redan]

Glad you got the BPAP, lourdaud. The additional BPAP is on its way to Q did it!.

[Multicultural Harmony]

@891.. which is too much fukin reading. Only 100more to go then maybe a few articles to brush up and I'll have a new set of targets/compounds on my to-do list

[ScienceGuy]

I would like to suggest that instead of focusing on the negative, we all think positively about the way forward regards future Group Buys, learn from what has gone wrong with respect to this particular one, and take appropriate preemptive measures when managing other future Group Buys so as to avoid the same issues and pitfalls occurring.

With this in mind I have set up a new thread with the objective being to discuss, decide upon and establish GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL that are to be followed and adhered to when carrying out and organising future Group Buys within the LONGECITY community.

The intention here is that by adhering to said GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL the likelihood of the Group Buy proceeding to its conclusion smoothly and according to plan will be maximised; and it will also help to maintain good relations between everyone involved, throughout the Group Buy process.

See here: GROUP BUYS – RULES & PROTOCOL

[aarfai]

I don't particularly feel anything with 6 drops of BPAP. I'll try increasing the dosage and report back

[meatsauce]

Experience Report

15 drops of bpap solution was drunk on an empty stomach followed by a little coffee.

20 min later: Feeling mentally focused. No physical stimulation. My current "ADD" seems to be accentuated if I don't make a conscious effort to focus. I did not sleep well last night so that might have some influence on the effects I am feeling.

35 min later: The coffee possibly is having a synergistic effect. When listening to music it is easier to hear the details. More effortless concentration. No rewarding feeling from doing activities as would be experienced with an amphetamine.

Uralsky found that at least 50% of the dried powder out of the dmso solution was impurities and if his calculation is correct with 14 drops equating to 100ug then perhaps 28 drops would be an appropriate dose. Maybe the effects will be more pronounced at that amount.

[sparkk51]

Experience Report

15 drops of bpap solution was drunk on an empty stomach followed by a little coffee.

20 min later: Feeling mentally focused. No physical stimulation. My current "ADD" seems to be accentuated if I don't make a conscious effort to focus. I did not sleep well last night so that might have some influence on the effects I am feeling.

35 min later: The coffee possibly is having a synergistic effect. When listening to music it is easier to hear the details. More effortless concentration. No rewarding feeling from doing activities as would be experienced with an amphetamine.

Uralsky found that at least 50% of the dried powder out of the dmso solution was impurities and if his calculation is correct with 14 drops equating to 100ug then perhaps 28 drops would be an appropriate dose. Maybe the effects will be more pronounced at that amount.

What?...

[meatsauce]

Today discovered that the original thread is password protected and restricted to the group buy members. I guess to get the password I have to PM yadayada. I dont like this as it would restrict discussion to a narrow group. Besides yadayada himself has switched to this new thread. So I post here to.
reporting my experiences.
I have received 23 mL of BPAP solution in DMSO at presumed concentration of 300 ug/mL, which makes total 7 mg BPAP.
Expected recommended dose is 100 ug or 333 uL.
Solution is supplied in a dropper bottle. Testing the dropper gives a weight of 10 drops = 258 mg. Considering density of DMSO is 1.1 this makes the volume of one drop = 23.5 uL thus containing ~7 ug BPAP. To dose 100 ug one needs 14 drops.
That was what I started with.
Dissolved it in small amount of water and swallowed.
Did not notice any particular effect other then bad smell persisting for couple days.
Following days tried reduced doses down up to 2 drops (14 ug). Smell was negligible but so other effects. One drop under the tong gave me not pleasant aftertaste for few hours potentially masking expected stimulating effect.
In retrospect I suspect the heated debate on the original thread could have contributed to my failing to experiencing of desired effects.
Unfortunately as I found I do not tolerate well DMSO. Pure DMSO is supposed to be odorless. Certain bacteria transform DMSO under hypoxic conditions into dimethyl sulfide (DMS) that has a strong disagreeable odor, similar to rotten cabbage.
So I decided to remove DMSO and replace it with other more tolerable solvent.
I was successful in drying out DMSO under vacuum in several smaller size vials. After drying there was a brown residue left supposedly BPAP. It is readily soluble in ethyl alcohol.
Ran RP HPLC. I cannot confirm the identity of the compound. But can say that I see more foreign contaminants by mass than the active compound itself. That is probably why it is brown in color. I am hesitant now whether I should continue with testing the BPAP I got.
Other than to test it by LC-MS one could compare it to other sourced BPAP. Vitaspace for example sells BPAP 8 mg for $150, which is cheaper than what I paid. I anyone buys there please let us know what is your experience with it. What form they provide it in, and how they deal with the stability issue?

Edited by meatsauce, 16 January 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[protoject]

but how do we even know that the DMSO was pure and not industrial grade? the DMSO seems a big problem to me here. Not only might it itself carry its own contaminants but also helps deliver whatever possible active impurities are in the BPAP.

[meatsauce]

but how do we even know that the DMSO was pure and not industrial grade? the DMSO seems a big problem to me here. Not only might it itself carry its own contaminants but also helps deliver whatever possible active impurities are in the BPAP.

Yea that's true. Perhaps we could contact vitaspace and see if we could get a bulk discount from them.

[uralsky]

Experience Report

15 drops of bpap solution was drunk on an empty stomach followed by a little coffee.

20 min later: Feeling mentally focused. No physical stimulation. My current "ADD" seems to be accentuated if I don't make a conscious effort to focus. I did not sleep well last night so that might have some influence on the effects I am feeling.

35 min later: The coffee possibly is having a synergistic effect. When listening to music it is easier to hear the details. More effortless concentration. No rewarding feeling from doing activities as would be experienced with an amphetamine.

Uralsky found that at least 50% of the dried powder out of the dmso solution was impurities and if his calculation is correct with 14 drops equating to 100ug then perhaps 28 drops would be an appropriate dose. Maybe the effects will be more pronounced at that amount.

I did not imply that the presumed 300 ug/mL concentration is of all the solutes dissolved. I believe that (hopefully) it is the actual concentration of BPAP. With all the contaminants on the top of this. There is one major peak of some UV absorbing compound (presumably BPAP) and additional peaks of less UV absorbing, more polar material, which however has larger mass according to LS detector.
As I mentioned I dried out the DMSO and redissolved BPAP in ethyl alcohol.
2 drops under the tong gave me after all some stimulating effect. Did not sleep well after but woke up easily in the morning. The taste was weird, strong, and long lasting (few hours). Cannot exactly describe it, like something burnt. I am familiar with nootropics bitter taste which would be very mild at such a low concentration, and transient. This BPAP preparation is very different.

[xks201]

I don't think it is anyone's place to make rules for every group buy. I think that is up to the seller and buyers.