166 replies to this topic

[Sciencyst]

As to the idea that nicotine being directly carcinogenic, I would ask that you provide a study proving that. There are a few caveats to that request:

1) The study must be about nicotine only, pharmaceutical or reagent grade, and not tobacco.
2) The study must not burn this nicotine. Smoke causes cancer, on it's own.
3) The subject must not be cancerous in the first place. Using already cancerous cells to prove something is a carcinogen is cheating.

My guess is that you won't find one. Every study I have ever seen that supposedly proves that nicotine is a carcinogen has actually been either about smoke, tobacco extracts, or a study on human tumor cells implanted into rats.

Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases
http://www.wjgnet.co...12/i46/7428.htm

There are a lot of other studies on its indirect effects on promoting pre-existing cancers if you are interested.. In particular it appears to inhibit the induction of apoptosis of cancer cells.

Edited by katuskoti, 15 March 2014 - 02:18 AM.

[hathor]

a study on human tumor cells implanted into rats.

Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases
http://www.wjgnet.co...12/i46/7428.htm

this was the study on tumor cells implanted into rats that Jeoshua already mentioned. it doesn't compell me to quit puffing on my ecig, which helps a lot with focus and cognition.

[username]

I thought I'd make a little update
My stack has changed quite considerably. I threw out the ginkgo.
Not everything I take is for mental health. The black seed oil is for my stomach problems (GERD, stomach cramps) and I can only recommend it. Omeprazole for weeks didn't do anything for me. I also tried other stuff from the pharmacy.
I will also add amisulpride. I just took 25mg and I don't know which dosage I'll take (probably no more than 50mg). I'm a lot better, but it's still not enough. I still get the 'feeling': People talk/laugh about me and I get anxiety that leads to hallucinations. All of this is no comparison to a few months ago. I can laugh and enjoy life. I can focus and I got a lot better at dealing with crowds. I can go to the store, meet friends, and maybe - one day - I will feel comfortable at parties again.
I haven't drunk alocohol for 3 months now and will never drink again.
I meditate 30-40min a day and it has really helped with my anxiety. Meditation is pretty awesome!

morning
1 teaspoon nigella sativa oil
0.75g Sarcosine
400mg SAMe
800mg EPA + 96mg DHA
250mg Magnesium
5mg Lithium orotate
150mg L-theanine
600mg NAC
750mg Green tea extract
500mg Curcumin
(25mg amisulpride)

midday
0.75g Sarcosine
200mg SAMe
800mg EPA + 96mg DHA
10mg Zinc
1mg Methylfolate

evening
200mg SAMe
450mg Ashwagandha
150mg L-theanine
600mg NAC
500mg Curcumin

Edited by longschi, 15 March 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[Jeoshua]

(blah, blah) directly carcinogenic (blah blah)

1) (blah) nicotine only (blah)
2) (blah) not smoke (blah)
3) (blah) not already cancerous (blah)

Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases
http://www.wjgnet.co...12/i46/7428.htm

There are a lot of other studies on its indirect effects on promoting pre-existing cancers if you are interested.. In particular it appears to inhibit the induction of apoptosis of cancer cells.

That's one of the studies I was talking about, where already cancerous cells are implanted into a rat. That's cheating. Certainly it would be a bad idea to take nicotine if one were already inflicted with cancer, but if you think about it, much the same effect could be found by giving those rats something innocuous like food or water. Giving the rats anything which would cause cellular growth or support life in any way would cause growth of those tumor cells.

If anything, the only thing that study really proves is that Nicotine has an effect on MAP Kinase, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on what you're looking for.

Edited by Jeoshua, 15 March 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Olon]

MAPK/ERK activation (probably due to EGFR transactivation) is necessary for the antipsychotic effect of clozapine, so I agree, it's not an unwanted side effect, but depends on what you're looking for. Growth factor receptors and growth-promoting signal cascades also play a role in other psychiatric diseases and neurodegenerative diseases, so especially for the latter there will come the point where society will have to ask: How much risk of cancer are we going to accept?"

[YoungSchizo]

Everything causes cancer these days, let's all don't eat & drink see if we can beat cancer?

@ Jeoshua do you have some good articles about e-cigs/liquid on health? Can you please send them to me..?

@ Longschi what does SAMe do for you? Years ago I wanted to try it, back then all study's indicated it triggered positive symptoms.. Also, green-thee extract does that contain caffeine? I don't know bout you guys but caffeine has a direct effect on aggravating my some symptoms, positive, mania, DP/DR and anxiety. (However, now that I'm on Clona I'm able to drink a couple cups of thee without a problem, my wake-up coffee I just switched over to decaf)

Edited by YoungSchizo, 15 March 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[username]

I take it for depression and osteoarthritis. That's also why I take curcumin. I had to take pain meds all day. Stopping drinking, supplements etc. -> joint discomfort and pain has improved a lot.
SAMe causes digestive problems, but I don't really have a choice. Being in pain is worse.
I'm also pretty sure that I have or had a SAMe deficiency. Osteoarthritis and depression appeared at around the same time during my teenage years.
The green tea extract is decaffeinated (product from Life Extension)
I don't have any problems with caffeine.

[Jeoshua]

Unfortunately there are very few studies on the specific effects on e-cigarettes on long term health. They've only even been a "thing" since around 5 or 6 years ago. But, of course, that lack of evidence doesn't really prove anything. All the actual ingredients have been found to be safe and are approved for use as food additives without the need for special labeling by the FDA, the WHO, and other such advisory boards. Nicotine is the only outlier, and the science that has been done on Nicotine, alone, has to my knowledge never shown it to actually cause any disease, only to have various effects on already existing disorders (again, I have no studies to prove a negative, since science doesn't work very well in that direction).

Nicotine is addictive, yes, but we must also remember that one of the main reasons that it is so very addictive is that cigarettes are highly engineered, with many adjunct chemicals, MAOIs, and bronchiodialators, along with being treated with alkaline chemicals which would naturally draw Nicotine out into a sort of "freebase". Puffing on a cigarette is much more addictive than administration of pure nicotine in every way imaginable.

Additionally, we must remember that while addiction can be a serious problem for some, it's not what causes drugs to be harmful in the first place. All those "faces of meth" propaganda pictures that you see aren't caused by the effects of Methamphetamine on the brain or body, but rather are caused by years and years of sleep deprivation, lack of good personal hygiene, and violent attacks by the kind of desperate people who involve themselves with bathtub crank, in the first place. The chemical components are actually very similar to Adderall, and you don't see little ADHD kids in school having their teeth fall out or faces fall off, now do you?

Edited by Jeoshua, 16 March 2014 - 03:43 PM.

[Sciencyst]

(blah, blah) directly carcinogenic (blah blah)

1) (blah) nicotine only (blah)
2) (blah) not smoke (blah)
3) (blah) not already cancerous (blah)

Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases
http://www.wjgnet.co...12/i46/7428.htm

There are a lot of other studies on its indirect effects on promoting pre-existing cancers if you are interested.. In particular it appears to inhibit the induction of apoptosis of cancer cells.

That's one of the studies I was talking about, where already cancerous cells are implanted into a rat. That's cheating. Certainly it would be a bad idea to take nicotine if one were already inflicted with cancer, but if you think about it, much the same effect could be found by giving those rats something innocuous like food or water. Giving the rats anything which would cause cellular growth or support life in any way would cause growth of those tumor cells.

If anything, the only thing that study really proves is that Nicotine has an effect on MAP Kinase, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on what you're looking for.

touche, thank you for clarifying.

[Flex]

Edit

Edited by Flex, 23 March 2014 - 09:38 PM.

[Ron.Stone]

I hope its ok if i hijack this old thread... i am in the same situation. Prior to psychosis the only two substances i used regularly where THC + escitalopram.

Now i read that CB2-Agonism upregulates 5HT2A-receptors and i ask myself if the combination of THC + SSRI do synergistcly contribute to psychosis.

 

Further i read that in the promodal state of psychosis 5HT2A receptor binding gets lost in the prefrontal cortex (PFC), and i read the CB1-Antagonist Rimonabant elevates Serotonin levels in this brain region. So i thought: Why not elevate Serotonin in the PFC (Cb1-Antagonist), upregulate 5HT2A receptors (CB2 agonist like beta-caryophyllene), maybe add an SSRI again. Altogether this leads to higher 5HT2A transmission in the PFC which leads to higher dopaminetransmissions in this part of the brain. 

Additionally one could take amisulprid (D2-antagonist) to level down anadamidesignaling.

Does this makes sense? 

 

 

 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Fish oil, magnesium, lithium can exacerbate psychosis (lithium can) and cause depression.

Take l-theanine, it has potent antipsychotic effects (don't necessarily remove all positive symptoms but drastically reduce them).

[Ron.Stone]

PeaceAndProsperity, thanks for your input though it has nothing to do with what i asked. And the rest of the discussion is pretty old. Check the date.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

PeaceAndProsperity, thanks for your input though it has nothing to do with what i asked. And the rest of the discussion is pretty old. Check the date.

You said you had hot flashes. I have them too (and several things can cause them) together with a tighness in my forehead. Do you have that as well? I read on schizophrenia.com that the incompetent idiots regard head tightness as a psychosomatic symptom, a part of "psychosis".
 

[Ron.Stone]

I hope its ok if i hijack this old thread... i am in the same situation. Prior to psychosis the only two substances i used regularly where THC + escitalopram.

Now i read that CB2-Agonism upregulates 5HT2A-receptors and i ask myself if the combination of THC + SSRI do synergistcly contribute to psychosis.

 

Further i read that in the promodal state of psychosis 5HT2A receptor binding gets lost in the prefrontal cortex (PFC), and i read the CB1-Antagonist Rimonabant elevates Serotonin levels in this brain region. So i thought: Why not elevate Serotonin in the PFC (Cb1-Antagonist), upregulate 5HT2A receptors (CB2 agonist like beta-caryophyllene), maybe add an SSRI again. Altogether this leads to higher 5HT2A transmission in the PFC which leads to higher dopaminetransmissions in this part of the brain. 

Additionally one could take amisulprid (D2-antagonist) to level down anadamidesignaling.

Does this makes sense? 

 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Fuck's sake. My reply was meant for OP...

[Ron.Stone]

no problem life long a prosper... 

anyone else on my thoughts on cannabinoid-receptors and serotonin-transmissions?