111 replies to this topic

[onyomi]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to figure out an extreme reaction I had to vitamin k2. I had been diagnosed with lowish D3 (29) and thought this might be contributing to some sleep difficulties I'd been having. I tried supplementing it, but weirdly it made me feel tense and anxious and gave me a stomachache, which it had not done in the past. I tried adding magnesium, but to no avail.

I read about how k2 was supposed to help the body "use" d3 more properly, so I decided to give it a try. I have had lowish platelets and lowish blood pressure all my life, so I figured that, if anything, I didn't need to worry about excessive clotting, since I was more of a "bleeder."

I tried MK7 first: a tiny, tiny dose. I broke up a 90 mcg tablet into about ten pieces and took one of them. Strange but interesting reaction. I felt full of a kind of euphoric energy and couldn't sleep all night. It seemed to me like K2 was doing something good--only it was very strong, and shouldn't be taken at night. I looked into it more and read that MK7 could cause heart palpitations and the like, while MK4 was more "natural," had a shorter half-life, and could be taken in larger doses (obviously I've eaten cheese, pepperoni, liver, etc. and never had a strange reaction. I've even had natto a few times a while back, and I don't remember any especially strange reaction), so I tried to switch to MK4 in the morning.

I bought a 500 mcg pill and again split it into about 10 pieces, so I was taking about 50 mcg each morning. It seemed to have a similar effect--made me feel very happy and energetic, a bit manic, even, and also horny. Seemed like a great thing, albeit surprisingly strong. But after about a week of this I started having frequent heart palpitations and noticed veins standing out on my body strangely. My blood pressure had gone way up, and, worst of all, I started noticing a big increase in vitreous floaters in my eye.

I quit the k2 altogether and went to an eye doctor to find I had an atrophic hole in my retina. They don't think it had anything to do with the K2, but I have a hard time believing it was just a coincidence. Moreover, I'm sure the palpitations and other cardiovascular symptoms were connected. Now it's been almost two months since I took K2 and I'm still suffering with the floaters (the hole was treated with a laser but there's not much they can do about the floaters), and occassional heart palpitations and chest pains, though those have gotten much better over time. It may be unconnected, but I also notice a weird symptom: it looks like my skin has lost its elasticity--the opposite of what K2 supposedly does in skin products. I could just have gotten older all of the sudden, but it seems weird to me. Also, connective tissue disorders can lead to ocular problems.

Anyway, this is in one sense just a warning to people about K2: some people seem to have extreme reactions to even a little bit of it, and I strongly advise against taking it.

On the other hand, I'm trying to figure out what caused my extreme reaction: it could have something to do with my low platelets, I suppose, but why the huge bursts of energy and libido when I took it? Why the weird blood pressure? Why the possible eye damage? It's quite a frustrating mystery.

[Godof Smallthings]

Thank you for sharing. Interesting.

Anyway, this is in one sense just a warning to people about K2: some people seem to have extreme reactions to even a little bit of it, and I strongly advise against taking it.

Do you have other examples of people with potentially extreme reactions to K2 in large or small amounts?

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 16 January 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[onyomi]

Thank you for sharing. Interesting.

Anyway, this is in one sense just a warning to people about K2: some people seem to have extreme reactions to even a little bit of it, and I strongly advise against taking it.

Do you have other examples of people with potentially extreme reactions to K2 in large or small amounts?

Well, after I had the problem, I started searching through Amazon product reviews and forum postings about K2 and found a number of people reporting strange, sometimes similar symptoms: burst blood vessels on the face, chest pains, sharply increased blood pressure, increased intraocular pressure, even deep vein thrombosis and "mini-stroke" have been attributed to it by some. Now these are just personal anecdotes, of course, but added together with my personal experience, there seems to be something to them.

I have the most extreme reaction I have read about in terms of dosing and duration. I literally only took about 50 mcg of MK4/day for about one week. Logically, it seems I should have been able to get this much MK4 just by eating a hunk of gouda cheese every day, so I really can't understand it. I would blame the supplement itself for some kind of additive, but that wouldn't explain how I had the same reaction to a different brand of MK4 as I did to MK7. One possibility is that either of these chemicals come with counter-balancing co-factors when found in food--the "nattokinase" in natto, for example, is a "clot-buster" which might counteract the clotting effect of K. Most people whose posts I've read notice these sorts of problems after taking a larger dose for a month or so. In Japan, it seems to be fairly common to prescribe 15 MILLIgrams of MK4 three times a day for osteoporosis, and while there are some side effects reported, they don't seem very severe.

Personally, based on my reactions to 50 mcg, if I had taken 45 mg in one day, I think I would have died. I think it is a matter of time before there is a lawsuit about vitamin K2 supplements. Someone with a hypersensitivity of some kind like myself is going to be less judicious and take a bigger dose and then who knows what will happen.

Edited by onyomi, 16 January 2014 - 08:13 PM.

[balance]

I have taken 45-90MG of K2 MK-4 for many months, never a single side effect, and MK-7 in the dose of 200mcg, K1 in dose of 1000mg. Sorry to hear you are having problems. Potentially trying a different brand and slowly building up might help you.

[onyomi]

Well, I will never take K2 in supplement form again. At some point I might try getting small bits through foods like natto and gouda, but I'd feel a lot better about it if I could figure out WHY I had such an extreme reaction, where others can take 100 times the dose I took and be fine. I was a bit low on vitamin D when I started it, but I don't think that alone could explain it.

My 23andMe test said I have a genetic sensitivity to Warfarin, which if I understand, is kind of like "anti-vitamin K." I would have thought that would mean I could take more vitamin K than average, but maybe it actually means that I just run on much less vitamin K than average, or something.

[1kgcoffee]

1. Where did you get a 500mcg pill of k2?
2. Are you sure it was mcg and not mg? 50mg of mk7 is dangerous
3. Are you sure is was k2 and not k3? can you get a certificate of analysis? k3 is dangerous

Activation of EGFR (epidermal growth factor receptor) might have something to do with the retina and skin issues. Some people report improvement in floaters and skin condition from OPC containing supplements such as pynogenol and grape seed extract--EGFR inhibitors. Not medical advice, just a random idea.

[niner]

Would you happen to have a link to the exact products that you used? 1kgcoffee's suspicions regarding the identity and purity of the supplement are reasonable.

Vitamin K is not a pro-clotting compound. A vitamin K deficiency will interfere with clotting, but once the deficiency is corrected, more K will not change your coagulation parameters. Warfarin works by inducing a vitamin K deficiency.

[onyomi]

This is the MK4 product I used:

http://www.amazon.co...keywords=mk4 k2

And this is the MK7 product I used:

http://www.amazon.co...oppe vitamin k2

Given that the two different brands and different types of K2 produced basically the same symptoms in me, I tend to believe the problem lies with K2 itself, and not with an adulterated batch or an additive.

I did think about the possibility of it being K3, which is illegal for sale as a vitamin in the US, because it is, as you say, toxic, but again, TWO different companies using the same, illegal version of the vitamin? I don't think my luck is that bad or the companies are that dishonest. I am not going to go to the trouble of getting the pills tested chemically, and I already threw the bottle of MK7 away.

Niner: you say it is not a pro-clotting compound, but I have read elsewhere that K2 can be used as K1 by the body, so while it might not function as a clot promoter in most people, the body might use it that way in unusual cases, such as a potential K deficiency. Also, if warfarin thins the blood by causing a K deficiency, then how could more K not have the potential to thicken the blood? Perhaps I have a longstanding K deficiency and my body has adjusted to that fact with the result that adding K back in causes excessive clotting?

That said, I'm not entirely sure my problems have been a result of excessive clotting. I did have some chest pains and occasional sudden, sharp pains, which made me think that perhaps clots were getting stuck or being dislodged. But on the other hand, I've had a couple of small cuts since having this problem, and if anything, they have taken longer to stop bleeding than usual (though apparently abnormal clotting can sometimes create a problem of both bleeding a lot and creating clots). I've got my platelets tested again and they are stable at the same, usual, low level. I haven't had other blood clotting tests done, but I'm seeing a hematologist next week.

But, in any case, while an increase in clotting activity would explain some of my problems (maybe chest pain, palpitations, and possibly blood pressure), it would not explain a lot of other effects. The eyes, for example: I've been assured multiple times by the retina specialist that a problem in the blood, such as with clotting, could not have caused the problem I had. A retinal vein occlusion, maybe, but not a retinal hole. Personally, I think it caused a spike in intraocular pressure, based on the fact that my readings have gone down since I first saw the ophthalmologist, and given that eyelid swelling is one of the listed side effects.

Increased clotting would also not explain the positive effects I experienced: a kind of manic, happy energy and libido boost. The only thought I have about that is that while I've never taken "poppers" (nitric oxide you inhale to create a sudden vasodilation which people find pleasurable), the effects of K2 seemed to me to be a little like what I've read about them. What's more poppers can cause retinal damage.

Added to this case is a strange reaction I had to l-arginine after the K2 problems. Where normally l-arginine has little effect on me, when I took it in the aftermath of the k2 problems it worsened the palpitations and made me feel faint, as if i wasn't getting enough oxygen or something. Since l-arginine is like a precursor to nitric oxide, it might stand to reason that my K2 effects somehow stem from too much nitric oxide. One of the lingering symptoms I've been dealing with is a heart palpitation upon changing positions and sometimes during exercise--a kind of postural hypotension, I guess. Seems like this might have to do too much vasodilation, but probably not with too much clotting.

I have taken 45-90MG of K2 MK-4 for many months, never a single side effect, and MK-7 in the dose of 200mcg, K1 in dose of 1000mg. Sorry to hear you are having problems. Potentially trying a different brand and slowly building up might help you.

What benefits do you get from MK4? Did you notice a boost in energy and libido like I did?

Edited by onyomi, 17 January 2014 - 12:57 AM.

[onyomi]

Activation of EGFR (epidermal growth factor receptor) might have something to do with the retina and skin issues. Some people report improvement in floaters and skin condition from OPC containing supplements such as pynogenol and grape seed extract--EGFR inhibitors. Not medical advice, just a random idea.

You mean the k2 activated my EGFR in an unusual way? Is that something it is known to do?

[nameless]

If you have eaten Natto with no odd symptoms, then it doesn't make any sense that K2 is causing your issues. If you had an allergy to natto, then perhaps it could make some sense, but if you can eat natto fine, no issues at all... neither K2 nor the natto content (from MK-7) would seem like likely culprits.

Contamination is a possibility, but I wouldn't think they'd cause all of the issues you are mentioning -- unless one of those companies accidentally included poison as filler. The Solaray MK-7 product is not 90mcg, nor even a tablet, so that couldn't be the one you mentioned breaking up into small pieces.

If you are getting chest pains, probably best to see a doctor to rule out serious causes.

You were also taking a baby dose of MK-4, which has a short half-life, so not quite sure what could be the issue.

[onyomi]

If you have eaten Natto with no odd symptoms, then it doesn't make any sense that K2 is causing your issues. If you had an allergy to natto, then perhaps it could make some sense, but if you can eat natto fine, no issues at all... neither K2 nor the natto content (from MK-7) would seem like likely culprits.

Contamination is a possibility, but I wouldn't think they'd cause all of the issues you are mentioning -- unless one of those companies accidentally included poison as filler. The Solaray MK-7 product is not 90mcg, nor even a tablet, so that couldn't be the one you mentioned breaking up into small pieces.

If you are getting chest pains, probably best to see a doctor to rule out serious causes.

You were also taking a baby dose of MK-4, which has a short half-life, so not quite sure what could be the issue.

It was the Solaray product. I was mistaken when I said 90 mcg. Which means my dosage of MK7 was even smaller than I thought.

I have eaten natto before, but it's been years. I kept meaning to try it again before trying the MK7 in pill form, since I prefer to get nutrients from food when possible, but I had trouble finding a good asian grocery nearby. Also, there could have been something different about my body chemistry now as compared to when I last ate natto. My only other thought is that natto the food might have co-factors that cancel out some of the effects--nattokinase, for example, is fibrinolytic, apparently. I also never ate natto on a regular basis, so it's also possible that I felt really energetic and had a mild spike in blood pressure on a few occasions after eating natto, but never put two and two together.

But you're right--it's very strange that such a small dose of MK4, with its short half-life, could cause such problems. I only tried it in the first place because it seemed so innocuous to take such a small dose of something I was theoretically already getting some of in cheese, egg yolks, etc. I do recall a period of what one might term "hypomania" that I experienced a few years ago, which was also accompanied by the appearance of a few new floaters, though no retinal problems according to an exam. I didn't correlate that with anything I ate or took at the time, but for all I know it could have been a week I ate a bunch of gouda cheese or pepperoni, or what have you. That said, the fact that I've previously experienced something similar, albeit to a lesser degree, does lead me to believe that it is something "in me," so to speak. K2 acted like a "trigger" for whatever manic/hypercoagulating/collagen breaking/retina damaging/floater producing state I already have a tendency toward.

I am quite sure, however, that it was the k2, and not just a coincidence. When I would take the K2 I would notice a kind of euphoric energy within minutes, and one of the symptoms was colors seeming brighter. Yes, I have previously had anxiety/depression and possible mild bipolar (though never the sorts of ups and downs lasting weeks typical of more serious bipolar), but I've never read anything about K2 affecting mood/neurotransmitters. And besides, even if the mania, heart palpitations, blood pressure, etc. were all a result of some kind of spike in epinephrine or cortisol or what have you, that wouldn't explain the eye thing.

It really doesn't make sense at all, which is why my doctor has told me she doesn't think it has anything to do with the K2. I'd believe her but the time correlation was just too tight, and I've read enough anecdotal stories from others reporting similar symptoms. I just wish I could figure out what was going on.

Edited by onyomi, 17 January 2014 - 04:08 AM.

[niner]

Niner: you say it is not a pro-clotting compound, but I have read elsewhere that K2 can be used as K1 by the body, so while it might not function as a clot promoter in most people, the body might use it that way in unusual cases, such as a potential K deficiency. Also, if warfarin thins the blood by causing a K deficiency, then how could more K not have the potential to thicken the blood? Perhaps I have a longstanding K deficiency and my body has adjusted to that fact with the result that adding K back in causes excessive clotting?

The way K works is by modifying certain proteins. Once all of these proteins have been modified, there's nothing left to do. More K will not matter, because the proteins are the rate limiting factor. If you were in a state where the proteins were not all modified, then more K would presumably help clotting, along with the other things it's involved in, like bone growth. I'm presuming that such a state would represent vitamin K deficiency.

[nameless]

Overlooking contamination or an allergic reaction, the only other thing that crossed my mind is that I have read K2 may act as a cyst-buster for Lyme and perhaps other bacterial infections. That said, I think I've only read it in relation to the MK-7 flavor of K2, and certainly not at baby doses. I wouldn't think 50mcg of MK-4 would do anything at all.

I have also seen the rare comment here and there regarding palpitations for K2 too, but again, only from the MK-7 version. It could be a reaction from the natto content, possibily.

The only thing I can suggest is seeing a doctor about the chest pain + eye issues, and if you want to try K2 again, at least get a better brand next time.

[onyomi]

Overlooking contamination or an allergic reaction, the only other thing that crossed my mind is that I have read K2 may act as a cyst-buster for Lyme and perhaps other bacterial infections. That said, I think I've only read it in relation to the MK-7 flavor of K2, and certainly not at baby doses. I wouldn't think 50mcg of MK-4 would do anything at all.

I have also seen the rare comment here and there regarding palpitations for K2 too, but again, only from the MK-7 version. It could be a reaction from the natto content, possibily.

The only thing I can suggest is seeing a doctor about the chest pain + eye issues, and if you want to try K2 again, at least get a better brand next time.

I have read about at least one other person having bad reactions to MK4 as well.

I'm pretty sure I don't have lyme disease (at least, I don't ever remember getting bitten by a tick or having a "bull's eye" rash), though I couldn't necessarily rule out some other infection. What makes you suspect lyme disease? I did have a bout of mild hyperthyroidism a few months before the K2 problem, which I think was caused by supplementing iodine (yes, I've experimented a lot these past several months, with sometimes bad results), though my doctor thought it could have been a virus of some sort (though I never felt "sick" per se).

I've had an EKG done, which came back normal. My blood pressure is back to normal now too. I'm going to see a hematologist to make sure there are no clotting issues. The eye doctor says the retinal hole is probably just a part of aging as a person with myopia, but I strongly suspect the MK4 due to the exact timing. I can't be 100% sure the eye thing wasn't a coincidence, though. The heart stuff was definitely not a coincidence.

I definitely won't be taking any K2 in supplement form ever again, which is a shame, because it seemed to have some really positive effects. I might consider trying to get it through food like natto, etc. in the future, but only if I can figure out what went wrong.

Edited by onyomi, 17 January 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[nameless]

I didn't suspect you had Lyme disease. I simply meant, that is the only other thing I've read that could potentially cause odd issues in some people w/ K2 supplementation. And I can't even say it's accurate or not. But if you came back and said you had several serious ongoing bacterial infections, I guess in theory, K2 could be acting as a cyst-buster and causing some symptoms.

Again, I don't see how 50mcg of MK-4 daily for one week would do a whole lot.

I do have a question though, and don't take this the wrong way. Did you read any Amazon reviews + comments before you started getting these odd symptoms? The placebo effect is a real one, and gets overlooked a lot. I'm not saying this is the reason, just throwing it out there as a possibility.

Edited by nameless, 17 January 2014 - 04:57 AM.

[onyomi]

I didn't suspect you had Lyme disease. I simply meant, that is the only other thing I've read that could potentially cause odd issues in some people w/ K2 supplementation. And I can't even say it's accurate or not. But if you came back and said you had several serious ongoing bacterial infections, I guess in theory, K2 could be acting as a cyst-buster and causing some symptoms.

Again, I don't see how 50mcg of MK-4 daily for one week would do a whole lot.

I do have a question though, and don't take this the wrong way. Did you read any Amazon reviews + comments before you started getting these odd symptoms? The placebo effect is a real one, and gets overlooked a lot. I'm not saying this is the reason, just throwing it out there as a possibility.

Do you have a link to any info on how people with Lyme Disease react to K2?

As for the psychosomatic thing, it's not something I could confirm or deny by its very nature, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. I do recall reading a few people mentioning an increase in blood pressure before taking K2, but I don't remember reading anything about mood, and certainly not about eyes, until after. I was really expecting K2 to be much, much milder than it was, and was actually quite taken aback when I tried my first tiny dose of MK7--almost like, "this can't be right." I was never expecting it to give me energy or anything like that. Also, like you, I had read that MK7 sometimes causes palpitations, etc., but that MK4 does not. Therefore, when I started taking MK4, I was fully expecting it not to give me those same symptoms, and yet it did. And certainly I had no inkling it might affect my eyes.

I guess the question I'm most interested in is: given that it's well-accepted that MK7 causes an increase in blood pressure and heart palpitations in some people, does anyone have any idea why that might be? I mean, what is the mechanism? I realize there are all kinds of drug/chemical reactions which are just something that happens to a certain %age of the population with little rhyme or reason, but given that K is involved in clotting, and the side effect we are talking about involves the circulatory system, it seems like it should be possible to figure out what those people who react in that way have common.

Edited by onyomi, 17 January 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[hav]

Hi,onyomi. Sorry to hear about all your woes. Haven't seen an increase or decrease in my blood pressure, which is normally high, since beginning to take K2. Biggest effect I noticed is less tartar on my teeth.

Not everyone gets them but floaters are not unusual in persons over 50. Mine appeared about 10 years before I ever took K2. And have not changed since. I get them examined annually, which you should also consider doing.

My opthamologist tells me that floaters can be stimulated into appearing earlier than usual by eye inflammation and/or infection. Their appearance in your case may be related to something you got on your fingers and later touched your eye with. Or if you wear contact lenses perhaps something got into the solution. Like a hot spice. Other common eye irritants are high chlorine pools or excessive amounts of things in the air like dust, mold, smoke, or other pollution. K2 doesn't have much to do with your eyes, unless you got some into your eyes unintentionally. Like when you cut your pills. I notice that the MK4 you initially took seems to be modified to enhance its water solubility by mixing with stevia. Which is probably not a good idea because that approach would be unlikely to result in absorption matching the recommended practice of mixing fat-soluble K2 in oil. But would surely enhance the ability of the K2/stevia mix to dissolve and disperse into the watery areas of your eye if any got in there.

It is unlikely that your blood is normally thin, btw, if you don't normally have clotting problems exhibited by excessive bleeding. Also, you didn't mention any blood in your eye associated with the hole found there.

Regarding your l-arginine reaction, you might want to monitor your blood pressure. If its normally low, have a talk with your doctor about things to avoid. I'm sure you would be advised not to take blood vessel dilators like l-arginine, l-cystiene, and spermidine. I imagine someone with low blood pressure might react badly to garlic too. As well as natural diuretics like dandelion, ginger, and juniper. I take some of those things, in addition to medication, to help lower mine.

Howard

[onyomi]

Hi,onyomi. Sorry to hear about all your woes. Haven't seen an increase or decrease in my blood pressure, which is normally high, since beginning to take K2. Biggest effect I noticed is less tartar on my teeth.

Not everyone gets them but floaters are not unusual in persons over 50. Mine appeared about 10 years before I ever took K2. And have not changed since. I get them examined annually, which you should also consider doing.

My opthamologist tells me that floaters can be stimulated into appearing earlier than usual by eye inflammation and/or infection. Their appearance in your case may be related to something you got on your fingers and later touched your eye with. Or if you wear contact lenses perhaps something got into the solution. Like a hot spice. Other common eye irritants are high chlorine pools or excessive amounts of things in the air like dust, mold, smoke, or other pollution. K2 doesn't have much to do with your eyes, unless you got some into your eyes unintentionally. Like when you cut your pills. I notice that the MK4 you initially took seems to be modified to enhance its water solubility by mixing with stevia. Which is probably not a good idea because that approach would be unlikely to result in absorption matching the recommended practice of mixing fat-soluble K2 in oil. But would surely enhance the ability of the K2/stevia mix to dissolve and disperse into the watery areas of your eye if any got in there.

Hi, well I am only 32, but I do have high myopia. In this case, I'm quite sure the new floaters are a result of the retinal hole which developed. The floaters are just the bits of dead retina floating around. One thing that makes me suspect the K2, rather than just normal aging, besides the timing, is the fact that the retinal hole had fluid under it, which is what necessitated the laser treatment. If there hadn't been fluid, they might have been able to just leave it alone. Apparently K2 can cause various types of edema, so I personally think it was causing ocular edema, which broke a hole in my admittedly already thinly stretched retina.

I do wonder about the way I took it. I did not mix the pills with fat, I just swallowed or chewed them. I don't think it was a result of getting any in my eye, but the fact that K2 wasn't combined with fat might have caused the absorption to be too rapid, rather than a gradual release sort of thing. I didn't think to do it, because I thought the purpose of the fat was to increase absorption, not slow it down, and I didn't want to try to increase the absorption till after I could tolerate a smaller dose.

Edited by onyomi, 17 January 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[hav]

I do wonder about the way I took it. I did not mix the pills with fat, I just swallowed or chewed them. I don't think it was a result of getting any in my eye, but the fact that K2 wasn't combined with fat might have caused the absorption to be too rapid, rather than a gradual release sort of thing. I didn't think to do it, because I thought the purpose of the fat was to increase absorption, not slow it down, and I didn't want to try to increase the absorption till after I could tolerate a smaller dose.

The K2 I take is in a gel cap with olive oil. That approach maximizes the amount of absorption for something that dissolves readily into the oil. Olive oil would likely be first absorbed and distributed via the lymphatic system which spreads the K2 around pretty slowly but steadily before peaking in the bloodstream maybe 8 hours later. I understand K2 sticks around for days while its being metabolized.

Howard

Edited by hav, 17 January 2014 - 05:27 PM.

[balance]

The only effect I've noticed, and that has been noticed by many others, especially as noted on Amazon, is shiny smooth skin. But the effect is subtle, and requires daily supplementation. For that purpose, I would recommend Jarrow Hyaluronic acid and Life Extension Pomegranate capsules, as they greatly enhance my skin.

[hav]

Hi, well I am only 32, but I do have high myopia. In this case, I'm quite sure the new floaters are a result of the retinal hole which developed. The floaters are just the bits of dead retina floating around. One thing that makes me suspect the K2, rather than just normal aging, besides the timing, is the fact that the retinal hole had fluid under it, which is what necessitated the laser treatment. If there hadn't been fluid, they might have been able to just leave it alone. Apparently K2 can cause various types of edema, so I personally think it was causing ocular edema, which broke a hole in my admittedly already thinly stretched retina.

Btw, your floaters sound pretty different from the ones I have. Age-related floaters are more commonly caused by posterior vitreous detachment. Which would be uncommon in someone your age. I think you are probably right in your case about them being the result of debris related to the hole.

The only references related to K2 and edemas found in Pubmed are all positive, with low K2 levels being associated with vascular degeneration and increased likelihood of edemas, particularly following eye surgery. I did find 2 references to K2 increasing the likelihood of edema... but they were talking about the mountain, not the vitamin. See for yourself:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../?term=K2 edema

You mentioned an increase in palpitations. I experienced something like that myself last summer. After spending a month running around between Durango and Silverton Colorado.

Howard

[onyomi]

The prescribing information for Glakay (15 mg MK-4) includes a rather non-specific "eye abnormalities" under the (admittedly rare) list of side effects:

http://www.eisai.jp/.../GLA_SC_EPI.pdf


This list of side effects is really scary, though obviously most of these patients were very old and sick and taking other medications to begin with:

http://patientsville...tm#.UtlydRAo7bg

[nameless]

Do you have a link to any info on how people with Lyme Disease react to K2?

I guess the question I'm most interested in is: given that it's well-accepted that MK7 causes an increase in blood pressure and heart palpitations in some people, does anyone have any idea why that might be? I mean, what is the mechanism? I realize there are all kinds of drug/chemical reactions which are just something that happens to a certain %age of the population with little rhyme or reason, but given that K is involved in clotting, and the side effect we are talking about involves the circulatory system, it seems like it should be possible to figure out what those people who react in that way have common.

I don't even recall exactly where I saw the K2/Lyme/Cyst Buster connection mentioned. I wouldn't worry about it if I was you. I didn't mention it to make you think you possibly have Lyme/bacterial infections ... I was just thinking aloud, on the rare off-chance at some point in the past you had a bacterial infection, etc.

As for why some people do seem to have negative reactions to K2, I have assumed it was a bad reaction to the natto content in MK-7 capsules, or those who go with prescription strength MK-4. I have never read of anyone having symptoms like you have experienced, at the doses you took ... especially for so short a period of time.

[onyomi]

I will add that I've been taking about 50 mg of B5 (pantothenic acid), 500 mcg of B12 (hydroxocobalamin), and 3-400 mg of l-theanine (amino acid found in tea), during most of the time all these problems were happening. All of these seem to help with sleep and anxiety.

I did read a few people online complaining that B vitamins (especially riboflavin, but someone does mention B5) increased their floaters. Does this seem plausible? I hate to stop taking B5, as it seems to help with both sleep and hair (hair looks fuller after taking it a few months), but maybe I should drop that too? I know the vascular symptoms were caused by the K2, but I wonder if there's any possibility the ocular symptoms were caused by B5?

[zorba990]

The prescribing information for Glakay (15 mg MK-4) includes a rather non-specific "eye abnormalities" under the (admittedly rare) list of side effects:

http://www.eisai.jp/.../GLA_SC_EPI.pdf


This list of side effects is really scary, though obviously most of these patients were very old and sick and taking other medications to begin with:

http://patientsville...tm#.UtlydRAo7bg

What would the proposed mechanism of action for K2 MK4 causing "eye abnormalities" be and are these seen in Weston Price populations?

[onyomi]

One other potentially interesting factor I am now calling to mind: I recall about ten years ago when I first went on the SSRI Zoloft for anxiety and depression (have been off it for over five years now, though), an episode where I got in a hot shower and suddenly felt very itchy. I scratched all over, and came out of the shower covered in petechiae, like this, albeit somewhat less severe:

http://www.tti.libra...mac/img0004.jpg

Interestingly this is, apparently, a reported side effect of SSRIs:

http://www.laborator...bi/D0507469.pdf

What's especially interesting to me is that this episode (which I didn't think much of, as it was basically an isolated incident) also corresponded to the point when the SSRI finally started to improve my mood--about one month after I started taking it. Therefore, in me, at least, there seems to be some weird connection between subcutaneous bleeding and... a good mood? High serotonin?

And the thing is, K2 definitely induced this state in me, and to some extent, it is ongoing. I just noticed some petechiae today from simply rubbing my arm against a rough wool sweater. My platelets, while on the low end, are stable at their usual, somewhat low level. I wonder what on earth could be the connection between neurotransmitters/mood and these vascular/clotting symptoms? One thing I don't think I've mentioned is that I actually feel pretty good lately, mood-wise. I've been very worried about my eyes and heart due to the symptoms, but otherwise I've felt pretty energetic, clear-headed, able to sleep, etc.

Actually, what I've been experiencing lately is quite similar to what this guy is reporting, though, unfortunately for both of us, no one seems to have any answers:

http://forums.webmd....ge/forum/2604/1

Edited by onyomi, 17 January 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[1kgcoffee]

Activation of EGFR (epidermal growth factor receptor) might have something to do with the retina and skin issues. Some people report improvement in floaters and skin condition from OPC containing supplements such as pynogenol and grape seed extract--EGFR inhibitors. Not medical advice, just a random idea.

You mean the k2 activated my EGFR in an unusual way? Is that something it is known to do?

k3 does, and can produce some nasty side effects including autoimmune. It is sometimes sold for animal feed. Did you buy a reputable brand? I've only used it in softgel form... I'm not too sure about k2 but maybe if you took a massive dose by mistake. I've never felt anything like those symptoms in years of taking k2.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 18 January 2014 - 12:09 AM.

[onyomi]

Activation of EGFR (epidermal growth factor receptor) might have something to do with the retina and skin issues. Some people report improvement in floaters and skin condition from OPC containing supplements such as pynogenol and grape seed extract--EGFR inhibitors. Not medical advice, just a random idea.

You mean the k2 activated my EGFR in an unusual way? Is that something it is known to do?

k3 does, and can produce some nasty side effects including autoimmune. It is sometimes sold for animal feed. Did you buy a reputable brand? I've only used it in softgel form... I'm not too sure about k2 but maybe if you took a massive dose by mistake. I've never felt anything like those symptoms in years of taking k2.

While I can't totally rule out the idea that both brands I tried were bad, the fact that both brands produced similar results, some of them positive and some of them negative, and in consonance with some of the other effects a few people have reported, leads me to believe that, most likely, it was legit K2, but I just have a bad reaction to it for some reason.

I'm sure it works fine for some, maybe most people, or it wouldn't be as popular as it seems to be lately.

I just wish I could figure out the mechanism that caused my extreme reaction in hopes of preventing any future damage to eyes or circulatory system.

Out of curiosity, why do you take K2 and what positive benefits do you get from it?

Edited by onyomi, 18 January 2014 - 12:17 AM.

[1kgcoffee]

Humans evolved before the time of refrigeration and so ate a large amount of vitamin K containing fermented foods. Vitamin K is for many biological functions, many that aren't understood and the only consistent food in my diet that contains a substantial amount is cheese so I take K complex every so often to boost my levels to what might be those of a paleo man. The main reason people take it is to prevent calcification and to maintain bones and teeth which there is some good evidence for. I have noticed a positive effect on teeth (anecdotal) and I don't bruise at all anymore (also anecdotal) despite getting banged up pretty bad. It may be one of several nutrients lacking in modern diets which leads to 'diseases of affluence' and general poor health expected in middle age. I am doing my best to avoid all that now in my 20's. I'm not advising anyone to take it, those are just my personal reasons.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 18 January 2014 - 01:04 AM.

[xks201]

I have been taking 5mg K2 Carlson Labs brand for 1 week. One day I took 10mg. Now that he mentions it I have noticed eye floaters starting after about 4 days of taking it and getting progressively more noticeable. I am stopping this supplement. Like him I noticed an increase in energy. I'm not sure humans are made to take that much of this at once.