111 replies to this topic

[nameless]

I have been taking 5mg K2 Carlson Labs brand for 1 week. One day I took 10mg. Now that he mentions it I have noticed eye floaters starting after about 4 days of taking it and getting progressively more noticeable. I am stopping this supplement. Like him I noticed an increase in energy. I'm not sure humans are made to take that much of this at once.

I can't comment on the eye issue, but 5-10mg MK-4 isn't an amount that humans normally consume via diet. As a medication in Japan, they have used higher doses though... but if you want to take a more reasonable dose mimicking diet, I believe somewhere around 40-50mcg would be about right. Or perhaps 100-150mcg if going high-ish (equivalent to eating a lot of goose liver). Natto people may get 100-200mcg of MK-7/daily (forget exact amounts, but we sort of estimated this here ages ago... forget the number).

While doing a quick look for goose liver and MK-4 (out of curiosity), ran across an article stating ratties given the equivalent to 1g/MK-4 daily for 5 weeks showed an increase in testosterone. Just wondered about it, after seeing comments here about boosts in energy and such. I suspect it only matters if deficient in K2 to begin with, and wouldn't think the OP's baby doses would do a whole lot ... but figured I'd mention it. And of course we aren't rats, so who knows...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21914161
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16844298

[onyomi]

I have been taking 5mg K2 Carlson Labs brand for 1 week. One day I took 10mg. Now that he mentions it I have noticed eye floaters starting after about 4 days of taking it and getting progressively more noticeable. I am stopping this supplement. Like him I noticed an increase in energy. I'm not sure humans are made to take that much of this at once.

I can't comment on the eye issue, but 5-10mg MK-4 isn't an amount that humans normally consume via diet. As a medication in Japan, they have used higher doses though... but if you want to take a more reasonable dose mimicking diet, I believe somewhere around 40-50mcg would be about right. Or perhaps 100-150mcg if going high-ish (equivalent to eating a lot of goose liver). Natto people may get 100-200mcg of MK-7/daily (forget exact amounts, but we sort of estimated this here ages ago... forget the number).

While doing a quick look for goose liver and MK-4 (out of curiosity), ran across an article stating ratties given the equivalent to 1g/MK-4 daily for 5 weeks showed an increase in testosterone. Just wondered about it, after seeing comments here about boosts in energy and such. I suspect it only matters if deficient in K2 to begin with, and wouldn't think the OP's baby doses would do a whole lot ... but figured I'd mention it. And of course we aren't rats, so who knows...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21914161
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16844298

It might have increased my testosterone. I think it also had some effect on neurotransmitters, like maybe serotonin. I didn't know that serotonin was involved in blood vessel function, but apparently it is, so that might be one reason it made me feel great mentally, but did something weird to my circulation of blood, and possibly of intraocular fluid.

Milligram-level dosages, especially of 15, 45, or 90 mg/day are definitely way beyond anything prehistoric man would have gotten out of food, no matter how nutrient-dense his soil and no matter how many fermented products he ate. Why not just eat more fermented and grass-fed products? That's what I should have done, though I tried some "high-vitamin butter oil" before the pills and noticed basically no effect. I understand megadoses may be needed for some with a serious problem like osteoporosis, but to take that much just for prevention or general good health seems pretty risky to me.

As for why I had this reaction to such a tiny dose of the nutrient in tablet form--a dose I should have theoretically been able to get just by eating a little liver--that's what still mystifies and frustrates me. I thought I was being very careful and yet...

Edited by onyomi, 18 January 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[nameless]

As for why I had this reaction to such a tiny dose of the nutrient in tablet form--a dose I should have theoretically been able to get just by eating a little liver--that's what still mystifies and frustrates me. I thought I was being very careful and yet...

That's what doesn't make any sense. If you were taking a high dose, for several weeks or more, in theory we could say the K2 may not be agreeing with you. Or if you never tried natto before, swallowed a MK-7 pill, then commented on odd symptoms (especially allergic ones), then it'd make some sense.

But at the doses you took, I can't come up with a reasonable explanation. I guess one way K2 could cause a problem is if a person had a clotting disorder (more prone to clotting), was deficient in K, so possibly in theory such a deficiency would mask the issue... and it became unmasked via supplementation? Again, just guessing and no idea if that even makes sense.

The MK-4 you tried had stevia in it, which I guess could cause some issues with some people... but again, your dose would have been very small. I wouldn't necessarily just rule out pure coincidence.

[onyomi]

As for why I had this reaction to such a tiny dose of the nutrient in tablet form--a dose I should have theoretically been able to get just by eating a little liver--that's what still mystifies and frustrates me. I thought I was being very careful and yet...

That's what doesn't make any sense. If you were taking a high dose, for several weeks or more, in theory we could say the K2 may not be agreeing with you. Or if you never tried natto before, swallowed a MK-7 pill, then commented on odd symptoms (especially allergic ones), then it'd make some sense.

But at the doses you took, I can't come up with a reasonable explanation. I guess one way K2 could cause a problem is if a person had a clotting disorder (more prone to clotting), was deficient in K, so possibly in theory such a deficiency would mask the issue... and it became unmasked via supplementation? Again, just guessing and no idea if that even makes sense.

The MK-4 you tried had stevia in it, which I guess could cause some issues with some people... but again, your dose would have been very small. I wouldn't necessarily just rule out pure coincidence.

This is my best guess. I probably had a pre-existing clotting issue and possible K deficiency. Though it was a small dose, I guess it still would have amounted to at least doubling what I'd normally get through food, which might have been enough to exacerbate some underlying issue. I am curious if others who have had the heart palpitation and/or eye reactions to K2 can give more of their history, especially in regards to blood clotting and the like, as that might help us figure out the underlying mechanism and therefore better predict who will have a good or bad reaction.

The only thing I know is unusual about my case is low-ish platelets due to higher-than-average platelet destruction. I've had this ever since taking accutane for a few months about ten years ago (as I think accutane is like a mega-dose of fat-soluble vitamin A, it might have screwed up my processing of fat-soluble vitamins more generally). I am going to see a hematologist this week, so I may learn more details. I wonder if there is a correlation between accutane users and a bad reaction to vitamin K?

It is possible the eye thing was a coincidence, given that I have pretty high myopia and am therefore predisposed to this kind of thing, though I don't think it was a true coincidence. I'm quite sure the blood pressure and other vascular symptoms were not a coincidence.

Edited by onyomi, 18 January 2014 - 10:48 PM.

[onyomi]

The plot thickens:

Accutane users are not supposed to take St. John's Wort (which raises serotonin) because it is reported to cause excess bleeding...

[hav]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ar side effects

Howard

[onyomi]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ar side effects

Howard

I don't think Accutane is the direct cause, since I haven't taken it in ten years, and I didn't experience any ocular or vascular symptoms then, but it might have created lasting imbalances in my clotting and fat-soluble vitamin processing that led to the strange reaction to K2. Now if only I could figure out the nature of those changes and whether there's anything that can reverse them...

Interestingly, I went to an acupuncturist for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and, on the basis of my tongue, she diagnosed me with liver yin (blood) insufficiency and spleen qi insufficiency. In Chinese medicine, the liver is responsible for blood production, and is directly connected to the eyes, which are nourished by the blood. In Chinese medicine, floaters are considered a symptom of insufficient "lubrication" of the eyes by the blood, which also results in dry eye.

Now obviously Chinese medicine is very heuristic and inexact from the perspective of modern medical science, but I do think it draws interesting and real connections between systems and their interactions which Western medicine sometimes may not understand yet. For example, everyone knows Accutane can hurt your liver, and it also causes dry eyes (and it did have that effect on me). I know not everyone may believe in the validity of acupuncture, but I am going to try several more sessions to see if it can't help get things back in balance. I doubt it can cure the floaters, but maybe it can undo some of the lingering accutane weirdness and, maybe, just maybe, help me develop a more normal metabolism of K2.

Edited by onyomi, 19 January 2014 - 12:15 AM.

[joelcairo]

I just reread this thread and I don't believe ANY of the effects you are talking about are due to K2. Your retinal specialist told you point-blank that it's not the cause of your eye problems. I'm sure you won't let go of this idea, but that's my two cents.

[onyomi]

I just reread this thread and I don't believe ANY of the effects you are talking about are due to K2. Your retinal specialist told you point-blank that it's not the cause of your eye problems. I'm sure you won't let go of this idea, but that's my two cents.

What is your reasoning, other than the fact that the retina specialist, who didn't even know what K2 is, and who probably hasn't seen anyone who ever took it, said it "was unlikely to be any vitamin you took"? I think he just sees a highly myopic eye and finds it relatively unremarkable that it should develop a retinal break, and I don't dispute I was predisposed to this problem, but why did it happen exactly then? Furthermore, I've had a photopsia in my right eye ever since then that appears when changing positions (probably due to orthostatic hypotension). How could it be such a coincidence that I developed weird symptoms in both eyes at the same time?

We already have one other member here reporting a sudden increase in floaters after taking MK4, and there are many reports all over of people having vascular symptoms similar to my own.

Edited by onyomi, 19 January 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[xks201]

Experiencing eye floaters myself after around 50mg of Vitamin K2 spread out in one week was enough for me to stop. I have not experienced eye floaters like this in some time. I will continue to take it but perhaps more like 5mg per week.

[onyomi]

Experiencing eye floaters myself after around 50mg of Vitamin K2 spread out in one week was enough for me to stop. I have not experienced eye floaters like this in some time. I will continue to take it but perhaps more like 5mg per week.

You did not experience any other side effects, I take it? So your eye floaters went away? How long after discontinuing the K2? I will be curious to see how your floaters do--if they are transient or stick around. Definitely see an ophthalmologist if you begin to see flashing lights, as this can be a sign of a retinal break.

Personally, I would stop taking it altogether, since it seems some of the effects can linger quite a while even after stopping, but it's your choice.

Edited by onyomi, 19 January 2014 - 04:32 PM.

[hav]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ar side effects

I don't think Accutane is the direct cause, since I haven't taken it in ten years, and I didn't experience any ocular or vascular symptoms then, but it might have created lasting imbalances in my clotting and fat-soluble vitamin processing that led to the strange reaction to K2. Now if only I could figure out the nature of those changes and whether there's anything that can reverse them...

You might not be the best person to evaluate whether eye-effects cited in the link I gave you about symptoms persisting for eight years might possibly continue 2 years longer, as in your situation. With so many lawsuits on the drug, it should not be hard to locate someone with ready access to medical experts intimately familiar with the drug. A starting point might be researching case participants using FindLaw and/or Cmecf. Here's just one of many examples to choose from:

http://caselaw.findl...on/1608406.html

Hopefully you can plead ignorance if own speculations about K2 come back to haunt you.

Howard

[onyomi]

Another interesting tidbit:

My acupuncturist recommended goji berries as being good for the liver yin and eyes, and as it so happens, patients are warned not to take goji berries while on warfarin, because it can lead to excessive bleeding...

Therefore, a berry traditionally viewed as very good for the eyes (also has vitamin A and zeaxanthin), counteracts the effects of vitamin K...

I may hold off on the berries till I get a more comprehensive view of my clotting situation, but I am just amazed at the connections Chinese medicine makes sometimes.

Edited by onyomi, 19 January 2014 - 08:18 PM.

[joelcairo]

I just reread this thread and I don't believe ANY of the effects you are talking about are due to K2. Your retinal specialist told you point-blank that it's not the cause of your eye problems. I'm sure you won't let go of this idea, but that's my two cents.

What is your reasoning, other than the fact that the retina specialist, who didn't even know what K2 is, and who probably hasn't seen anyone who ever took it, said it "was unlikely to be any vitamin you took"? I think he just sees a highly myopic eye and finds it relatively unremarkable that it should develop a retinal break, and I don't dispute I was predisposed to this problem, but why did it happen exactly then? Furthermore, I've had a photopsia in my right eye ever since then that appears when changing positions (probably due to orthostatic hypotension). How could it be such a coincidence that I developed weird symptoms in both eyes at the same time?

We already have one other member here reporting a sudden increase in floaters after taking MK4, and there are many reports all over of people having vascular symptoms similar to my own.

I'm just saying I tend to trust the retinal expert's opinion over any acupuncturist's, and it seems like the floaters and any effects on ocular pressure are much more likely to be due to the retinal hole or to the laser surgery you had to fix it.

[onyomi]

I just reread this thread and I don't believe ANY of the effects you are talking about are due to K2. Your retinal specialist told you point-blank that it's not the cause of your eye problems. I'm sure you won't let go of this idea, but that's my two cents.

What is your reasoning, other than the fact that the retina specialist, who didn't even know what K2 is, and who probably hasn't seen anyone who ever took it, said it "was unlikely to be any vitamin you took"? I think he just sees a highly myopic eye and finds it relatively unremarkable that it should develop a retinal break, and I don't dispute I was predisposed to this problem, but why did it happen exactly then? Furthermore, I've had a photopsia in my right eye ever since then that appears when changing positions (probably due to orthostatic hypotension). How could it be such a coincidence that I developed weird symptoms in both eyes at the same time?

We already have one other member here reporting a sudden increase in floaters after taking MK4, and there are many reports all over of people having vascular symptoms similar to my own.

I'm just saying I tend to trust the retinal expert's opinion over any acupuncturist's, and it seems like the floaters and any effects on ocular pressure are much more likely to be due to the retinal hole or to the laser surgery you had to fix it.

The floaters are definitely a result of the retinal hole. In fact, they ARE the dead pieces of the retina floating around in front of it. On this the ophthalmologist and I agree. The question is: what caused the retinal hole? Yes, I was predisposed to it by being near-sighted, but I don't think it was a coincidence it happened right during a period of high blood pressure and subjective sensation of fullness in the head brought on by taking the K2.

[HaloTeK]

Honestly, I think most of the negative effects mentioned were because it was the MK-7 form. Many people seem to react badly and I seem more than a few mentions of opposite effects on teeth and other areas. Personally MK-7 seemed to make my teeth worse.

I think the solution here is to take MK-4. The form that your body makes. I have had nothing but positive effects from it.

[Strelok]

I have taken a vitamin K supplement almost daily for the past year or so that contains:
100 mcg MK7
1300 mcg MK4
1000 mcg K1

and have experienced no negative side effects from it. I mainly take it for dental and bone health, and to help balance any vitamin D3 supplementation I may do.

[Godof Smallthings]

Strelok: Have you noticed any positives?

[onyomi]

Honestly, I think most of the negative effects mentioned were because it was the MK-7 form. Many people seem to react badly and I seem more than a few mentions of opposite effects on teeth and other areas. Personally MK-7 seemed to make my teeth worse.

I think the solution here is to take MK-4. The form that your body makes. I have had nothing but positive effects from it.

I did take the MK4 form. I only tried MK7 once, and a tiny, tiny amount. MK4 is the one I took for a week, having heard, like you describe, that it was more "natural" and less likely to cause side effects. It had the same effects as MK7 on me.

[timar]

Please do not take this personally. but there is no way in which a tiny dose of K2 could physiologically produce such symptoms. We have been through this for almost every single nutrient, recently for vitamin D. People experience the weirdest placebo responses.

[onyomi]

Please do not take this personally. but there is no way in which a tiny dose of K2 could physiologically produce such symptoms. We have been through this for almost every single nutrient, recently for vitamin D. People experience the weirdest placebo responses.

Or could it be that every single nutrient has the potential to create a weird, negative reaction in a small subset of users?

[wiserd]

I get symptoms from Carlson's labs K2 that include floaters and lowered sex drive. The symptoms mimic when I'm exposed to mold, which I'm pretty sensitive to.
I wonder if there's aflatoxin contamination in any of these pills.

I don't get the energy burst that some others have described.

[Darryl]

This is the only report of an averse reaction I've found in the literature.

Teperikidis, Eleftherios. "Hypotension associated with menaquinone." American Journal of Health-System Pharmacy 69.15 (2012).

A 62-year-old white man with a medical history of hyperlipidemia, coronary artery disease, and benign prostatic hyperplasia was started on a regimen of menaquinone 100 μg daily as a supplement to his medications for coronary artery disease. Approximately two hours after taking the first dose of menaquinone, the patient experienced sudden weakness and dizziness. At that time, his blood pressure was 110/55 mm Hg. On day 2 of treatment, his blood pressure was 105/50 mm Hg two hours after taking menaquinone; however the patient was asymptomatic. On day 3, the patient's blood pressure was 100/50 mm Hg two hours after menaquinone ingestion, with symptoms of generalized weakness and dizziness, at which point menaquinone was discontinued. All of the patient's heart rate measurements were within normal limits during this time. The day after discontinuing menaquinone, the patient's blood pressure was 115/65 mm Hg, after which his readings were within normal limits on subsequent days. After a 10-day menaquinone-free period, the patient was rechallenged. On rechallenge day 1, the patient's blood pressure was 115/60 mm Hg two hours after menaquinone ingestion; on rechallenge day 2, his blood pressure was 100/55 mm Hg. The patient was asymptomatic on both days of the rechallenge. The Naranjo et al. adverse drug reaction probability scale score was 7, indicating a probable adverse reaction to menaquinone. The drug interaction probability scale score for this case was 6, indicating that a drug interaction was probable. Conclusion: A 62-year-old white man developed mild symptomatic hypotension while receiving menaquinone therapy.

In my estimate, and despite this single case, K2 mk7 remains one of the supplements most likely to have favorable benefit / risk ratio. Past surveys have concluded, "when taken orally, natural K vitamins seem free of toxic side effects."

[Godof Smallthings]

You should carefully consider whether the side effects are worth it. If you do not experience concrete benefits, ditching the supps that cause the undesirable symptoms is the way to go.

[StevesPetRat]

Vitamin k affects glutamate, not serotonin, and not that anyone is still reading this thread

[Luminosity]

I had a weird reaction to vitamin K as well.  I tried a bunch of them and ended up with one that was high quality, I think it was called Triple Play by Future Biotics.  I believe it had different types of Vitamin K.  It worked well for months, but then I started to get burst blood vessels, bruising, and other stuff.  Red eyes?  It was bad.  When I stopped taking it the problems went away.  I did not take a high dose.

 

I took Accutane in the past, and regret it.  I did not get dry eyes on Accutane.  I have lowish blood pressure, myopia and astigmatism.   

 

I took a break from vitamin K and now take only food sources like steamed greens, Green Magma or Swanson's Fermented Prairie Grass supplements, or I drink green tea or put matcha tea in room temperature water.  

 

Below is a link to  my thread on Chinese Medicine, which some sensitive people really get into because it lacks the side effects and invasiveness of Western Medicine:

 

http://www.longecity...inese-medicine/

 

  

Edited by Luminosity, 07 January 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[cas123]

Hi guys,

I also had this strange strong reaction to K2. In my case it was Swanson K2 MK-7 200mcg (Menaquinone-7 from Natto). At the beginning I felt better with more energy (I thought that this is what was missing), but I also felt faster heart rate and had higher blood pressure (i am nomally low like 100/65). I was harder for me to fall asleep with this higher values. I continued for few days until i developed few floaters in my left eye. I stopped taking it. In total i took 8x 200mcg (in about 2 weeks time frame). It's more than month after and i still occasionally see floaters in my eye beside this i am fine.

 

More details about my case and why i began on vitamin K:

I suffer from Hashimoto's disease (autoimmune hypothyroid) and also Gilbert's Syndrome (genetic liver disorder with increased level of bilirubin). I take thyroid meds and betablocker for high heart rate. I decided to take vitamin D after my blood test showed about 22 ng/mL (my goal was 50 ng/mL). I started with 5000 IU/day for about month and in the beginning i felt much more up and go energy, it was great. But then i gradually felt more and more anxious, tense, thirst, more joint cracking and my libido gone to zero (i couldn't get hard which is strange for me - 25 years old). I checked my total calcium and it was on high border but in range. I lowered vitamin D to 2000 IU/day and kept going for few months. I also took a lot of magnesium all the time. I need to add that i also used sun a lot. After about 6 months of this vitamin d, magnesium and sun regimen i took next vitamin d test and it was 24 ng/mL (i thought what the hell is going on, how to raise this measure if i can't handle this vit D properly at all and how to be healthy with sun only..., thanks god i didn't take this attack doses of 50000 IU or something...). I must admit that i didn't felt any relive from magnesium, actually when i take more magnesium like teaspoon of magnesium chloride i fell bad (shaky, shaky/weak muscles and can't sleep at night, taurine helps me a little - wiki says "In cells, taurine keeps potassium and magnesium inside the cell, while keeping excessive sodium out. In this sense, it works like a diuretic. Because it aids the movement of potassium, sodium, and calcium in and out of the cell").

 

So i started researching vitamin D cofactors a lot and vitamin K was this that i thought i need (and maybe a little of boron?, because i took some zinc and vitamin A in the past which are also cofactors). I read that calcium and magnesium compete in some way with each other in body and magnesium can help with too much calcium from vitamin D but i think it's vitamin K that guide calcium where it really should be. I still think that i need vitamin K (my teeth gums bleed often, and i had many nose bleedings when i was younger) but maybe in small dose and definitely not MK-7 form, i really would like to try K1 form. When i eat kale which is rich in K1 i am OK. I didn't try natto ever and i love cheese which has some K in it.

 

Questions:

 

Do any of you with this strange reaction to K2 (high blood pressure, eye floaters etc.) have any experience with vitamin K1 supplements?

 

Did your eye floaters dissapered and how long did it take, is there something that helps for them?

 

What was the reason you started Vitamin K2?

 

What diseases you suffer from (i would really like to find some similarities)?

[Pangea]

Hi onyomi:

 

Did you ever figure out what the problem was?  One thing that sticks out to me is that in food forms -such as cod liver oil or high vitamin butter oil- vitamin K2 will be balanced with vitamin D, bioavailable form of vitamin A, and vitamin E, and other quinones/components.  The processes that vitamin K2 helps in the body require vitamin A.  I can't post links since I'm a new member, but a quick search on calcium metabolism and vitamin A will turn up papers.

 

Relevant search:  "vitamin A protects against the toxicity of vitamin D by decreasing the expression of vitamin K-dependent proteins."

 

My guess would be you had a hormone spike from the K2, or were deficient in K2 for a long time and had a detox reaction from body processes put off for a long time, or were deficient in a different cofactor.  One example:  When I started pantethine, it used to give me a huge rush of energy.  After I was on it for weeks, it made me sleepy to the point of passing out, and was very calming.  I am wondering if this change in reaction was because I was deficient before.  But you may be right and it may be a genetic disposition making it hard for your body to process the K2.  

 

Last point:  I have severe reactions to biotin supplements, to the point I had to go to the ER (they think it was a sulfite sensitivity reaction), but most of the time I don't react to foods with biotin.  When the vitamins are bounded to proteins, the body can choose what to absorb.  Also, MK-4 is derived from tobacco plants, and I hear they use questionable methods of extraction.  Impurities could be a problem across multiple brands. 

 

Edit:  forgot to mention.  I think vitamin A is closely involved with the retina, so it could have something to do with your eye symptoms.

Edited by Vivian Nicole, 30 June 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[Anthropositor]

I tend to be an idealist.  When I see something has gone astray, I always think it can be fixed.  An individual might be misguided and only needs a nudge in the right direction.  Simple logic and a little studious thought should put things right.  I was somehow conditioned to believe that there is always a silver lining.  Tomorrow will be a better day.  The good guys always win in the end. Twelve average people will always come up in a magical way with a sound  and just verdict.  

 

So I want to thank the diverse folks on this thread for showing me that I am still spectacularly wrong in this idealism.  I look, for instance at how many of these entries have been edited by the posters.  That means that they have worked to polish their thoughts. And I believe that most of them really believe in the merit of their position.  Thankfully, I found a post which I could applaud.  And within some of the other posts were little chunks of probable truths or at least idealistic possibilities of verities to savor.  

 

"Weird Reaction" in the title might have given me a heads up.  Instead I was hypnotized by curiosity and struck by the importance of K-2 in its' several forms.  The history is a fascinating and convoluted one going back a century.

 

So let me Quixotically try to fix the unfixable, not by the exhaustive detailed exposition of error, but by establishing the importance of K-2 in its' several forms, and a few of the reasons it should not be misunderstood.  But first, I must beg the muses of reason to inspire me on the morrow to illuminate this critically important subject in the way it deserves.  At this moment I am in a flooding rain, intermittently knocking out my satellite.  The gods are enjoining me not to screw this up with wind, thunder, lightning and flood.  I retire to my troubled coma... but I shall return. 

Edited by Anthropositor, 03 July 2015 - 12:37 PM.