111 replies to this topic

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I have similar concerns about blood clotting. And I have stupidly repeated the "experiment" about 5 times over the past 4 years without really realising that K2 might be the problem. It very quickly gives me a feeling of getting blood clots. My worst symptoms the past 2 years are increased thirst, intolerance for alkaline stuff, and some swollen veins. Can it be reversed?

 

Any mechanistic ideas as to why this happens? It's either due to genetics or the physiological environment is some people... or both. Maybe we should look into how the clotting system works and what physiological/hormonal states cause it to be pushed into the pro-clotting direction?

Did you try a low dose mk4? A low dose after the first day did nothing bad. Low dose would be half of 500mcg tablets, so around 250mcg.

 

[Lufega]

I tested all my clotting factors like PT and PTT and all tested high, but within normal.  Meaning my blood takes a little longer to coagulate.  Also tested D-dimer and that was negative so i can eliminate any fears of clotting.  Accutane is known to lowers vitamin K.  Since accutane, all my joints snap, crackle and pop and I believe this is due to calcification.  I also developed petechias at a young age and schamberg's disease (leaky blood vessels).  If anything, I should alternate between supplementing K1 and K2.  I do not know why I reacted the way I did to that high dose of MK4 but I definitely wont try that much again  

[dazed1]

I tested all my clotting factors like PT and PTT and all tested high, but within normal.  Meaning my blood takes a little longer to coagulate.  Also tested D-dimer and that was negative so i can eliminate any fears of clotting.  Accutane is known to lowers vitamin K.  Since accutane, all my joints snap, crackle and pop and I believe this is due to calcification.  I also developed petechias at a young age and schamberg's disease (leaky blood vessels).  If anything, I should alternate between supplementing K1 and K2.  I do not know why I reacted the way I did to that high dose of MK4 but I definitely wont try that much again  

 

What do you use accutane for?

Edited by dazed1, 27 June 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[Lufega]

 

I tested all my clotting factors like PT and PTT and all tested high, but within normal.  Meaning my blood takes a little longer to coagulate.  Also tested D-dimer and that was negative so i can eliminate any fears of clotting.  Accutane is known to lowers vitamin K.  Since accutane, all my joints snap, crackle and pop and I believe this is due to calcification.  I also developed petechias at a young age and schamberg's disease (leaky blood vessels).  If anything, I should alternate between supplementing K1 and K2.  I do not know why I reacted the way I did to that high dose of MK4 but I definitely wont try that much again  

 

What do you use accutane for?

 

 

I was needlessly prescribed accutane years ago by my doctor for a very mild case of acne.  Really regret taking that stuff.

[Interactome]

 

I have similar concerns about blood clotting. And I have stupidly repeated the "experiment" about 5 times over the past 4 years without really realising that K2 might be the problem. It very quickly gives me a feeling of getting blood clots. My worst symptoms the past 2 years are increased thirst, intolerance for alkaline stuff, and some swollen veins. Can it be reversed?

 

Any mechanistic ideas as to why this happens? It's either due to genetics or the physiological environment is some people... or both. Maybe we should look into how the clotting system works and what physiological/hormonal states cause it to be pushed into the pro-clotting direction?

Did you try a low dose mk4? A low dose after the first day did nothing bad. Low dose would be half of 500mcg tablets, so around 250mcg.

 

 

2 years ago I was taking 90 or 2x90 mcg MK7 per day for about 3-4 weeks. I also did all kinds of tests looking for blood clots and found nothing. I cannot tolerate Aspirin as well. Gave me all kinds of strange symptoms of dizziness. I tried about 500mcg MK4 6 months ago on my skin and that night I felt pain in my chest and back when my heart was beating. Is it possible to get clots in the small capillaries that do not show up on tests? And if yes, can they get unclogged again somehow, preferably without Aspirin?

Edited by Interactome, 27 June 2017 - 05:03 PM.

[livingguy]

Let me add my two cents to this post, I too have had wierd reactions to Vitamin K. I started with life extension product that had K1,K2 (MK4 and MK7) and it gave me a wierd feeling and a nose bleed the second day ( had not had a nose bleed in 25 years). Stopped it. Started again after few weeks and another nose bleed on the third day. Stopped again thought it maybe K1 in the product. After few months Started MK 7 at 90 MCG product this time after a week noticed increased blood pressure, high pulse and wierd excitability. Stopped the product. Kept reading about all the benefits of K2 so gave MK4 a try at 5mg per day. Similar BP and pulse issues. Stopped it and gave the bottle to my mom just saying it's good for her and after few days she reported similar BP and pulse issues with it and she didn't know anything about what I had experienced because I had not shared it with anyone till then. Then after a few months tried a tincture product that had 1mg per drop of MK4 and faced again same high pulse rate and wierd feelings. I am sure K2 causes some kind of stimulation in me I don't know why....

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Let me add my two cents to this post, I too have had wierd reactions to Vitamin K. I started with life extension product that had K1,K2 (MK4 and MK7) and it gave me a wierd feeling and a nose bleed the second day ( had not had a nose bleed in 25 years). Stopped it. Started again after few weeks and another nose bleed on the third day. Stopped again thought it maybe K1 in the product. After few months Started MK 7 at 90 MCG product this time after a week noticed increased blood pressure, high pulse and wierd excitability. Stopped the product. Kept reading about all the benefits of K2 so gave MK4 a try at 5mg per day. Similar BP and pulse issues. Stopped it and gave the bottle to my mom just saying it's good for her and after few days she reported similar BP and pulse issues with it and she didn't know anything about what I had experienced because I had not shared it with anyone till then. Then after a few months tried a tincture product that had 1mg per drop of MK4 and faced again same high pulse rate and wierd feelings. I am sure K2 causes some kind of stimulation in me I don't know why....

The stimulation feeling is normal. K2 does more than just related to the arteries.

I'm thinking all of us who react weirdly to k2 may have some genetic mutation that makes k2 produce stronger pro-coagulatory effects in us than in others. Or something.

Don't discard your experiences as placebo just because studies don't reveal anything.
 

[Interactome]

I've been thinking about the genetic mutation thing too... some SNP of some kind. Any of you have 23andme data? It might not be among the usual ones though, but it's worth a try. And I'm sure that if the entire globe were to suddenly start taking K2 many would react adversely to it. It's not only a handfull of people.

 

If there are no studies and doctors know nothing about it, it's a bit difficult to find out. Doctors don't seem to know much about vitamins (I've asked many), which is kind of strange... or maybe no so strange, given that we still have heart disease and cancer. It's a research question, otherwise there'd be warnings about this. Any PubMed studies related to it?

 

Maybe a blood test of vitamin K levels... if such a thing exists and makes sense...?

Edited by Interactome, 01 July 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I know that genetic mutations can change the effects of vitamin E (I learned on this forum) and make vitamin E produce inflammatory or oxidative effects or whatever it is, completely opposite to its anti-inflammatory or anti-oxidant properties.

 

As for single nucleotide polymorphisms, they don't tell you a lot because they are a tiny fraction of mutations. And 23andme doesn't even sequence all the SNPs in people's genome, only a fraction. So don't bother wasting your valuable time on it. Get your full genome sequenced.

[Interactome]

I've been looking around for over 1 year trying to figure out what could be the problem, blaming various 23andme SNPs, different vitamins, Candida, microbiome, stress, electrolyte/pH imbalances. But it could all be caused by the K2.

 

What I don't understand is how could it lead to blood clots when my blood tests didn't show any clotting markers. The INR and D-dimer were normal too.

 

2 years ago the doctors suspected a blood clot in my heart because of elevated creatine kinase and some slight EKG deviation. I was training at the time. They also found a (partially) bicuspid aortic valve with a slight insufficiency. Could that skew things into a more clotting direction?

 

I do take a mixed tocopherols E topically now 1x/week. I won't play with K2 anymore. I threw the rest of my MK7 and MK4 out when I found this thread last week.

[dazed1]

 

 

I tested all my clotting factors like PT and PTT and all tested high, but within normal.  Meaning my blood takes a little longer to coagulate.  Also tested D-dimer and that was negative so i can eliminate any fears of clotting.  Accutane is known to lowers vitamin K.  Since accutane, all my joints snap, crackle and pop and I believe this is due to calcification.  I also developed petechias at a young age and schamberg's disease (leaky blood vessels).  If anything, I should alternate between supplementing K1 and K2.  I do not know why I reacted the way I did to that high dose of MK4 but I definitely wont try that much again  

 

What do you use accutane for?

 

 

I was needlessly prescribed accutane years ago by my doctor for a very mild case of acne.  Really regret taking that stuff.

 

 

If you got ANY skin issues, or anyone else - make sure you drop me a pm, 100% resolution of almost all of the issues.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

My old relative takes half of 500mcg of vitamin k2 mk4 and had no issues. As soon as he took the full 500mcg tablet then he started having various issues with his heart, breathing and such as experienced by others.

[Interactome]

I get issues with 90 mcg mk7 and also with 500mcg topical mk4. I don't get it. I hope they do more research on this because it can really mess some people up.

 

If it's blood clotting, how can one reverse it (without aspirin)? My internal organs and skin really need more circulation.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I get issues with 90 mcg mk7 and also with 500mcg topical mk4. I don't get it. I hope they do more research on this because it can really mess some people up.

 

If it's blood clotting, how can one reverse it (without aspirin)? My internal organs and skin really need more circulation.

What's the issue, can't you just take a lower dosage? Since MK4's halflife is so short you should be able to take it twice daily, a low dose morning and night.

[Interactome]

I threw them out now. The latest I tried was MK4 about 500mcg on my arm, and at night I felt some slight chest pain with every heart beat and had more palpitations. I'm probably in a weakened state after all the confused stuff that I've done trying to undo some of the previous symptoms, that's why I react so quickly. I still have the palpitations at night, i.e. the heart beats hard and I can feel it, but the pain went away after a few days without the K2. I've tried topical MK7 90 mcg 1-2x/week for a month, and there I didn't feel much... but it's probably a bad idea since if it's blood clotting that goes on, then I'm only making it worse or maintaining the situation.

 

Another problem is that some of my veins have dilated, especially in certain places where flow was partially restricted during a time that I took about 180 or 200mcg MK7 for several weeks, and I also have many more visible capillaries on the feet.

 

One reason that I can think of is that I'm just not super healthy in the first place, and my clotting system is already pro-clotting, so adding K2 will just increase the amount of clotting. I should have taken Warfarin probably instead of K2. Or fix the underlying problem, whatever that is.

Edited by Interactome, 13 July 2017 - 06:54 PM.

[Consequences]

I have been having some wierd effects with K2 mk4... but I am probably taking too much. I have the 100mcg tabs and have been taking 3-4 a day.

 

I invested in some Gouda cheese and am trying to source Natto packs, here in the UK they are hard to find.

[ad506]

I also have experienced issues.

I was taking 100mcg K2 mk-7 with 4000iu d3. Started to experience increased physiologic response to stress one day. Seemed weird. Carried on taking stack. The next day the sensation got even worse. Carried on taking stack. Then discontinued as I realised something was up.

Tried to go to bed that next day and slepped for an hour woke up sweating with 70/40 blood pressure and had palpitations for 30hours later that day my blood pressure spiked to 140/98 peak which is insane. I'm a skinny 28yr male with normal blood pressure of 95/68. Went to the A&E (that ER for US readers) and EKG and bloods were normal, liver, kidney, calcium etc. Had bleeding gums for a few days after, usually rarely bleeds.

Ceased taking supplents for a few days then took my d3 and K2 pill and things kicked off again. Took two weeks to feel a bit better but my blood pressure is still elevated from normal by 10-15pts tends to be 104/73 in the am with a high first reading of 111/78 due to stress. Afternoon readings are 124/82 first reading and drop to 111/78. Two weeks on.

I have blood shot eyes and my skin on my hands feels weird. Like it's thinned. The simplest explanation is the days following the long palpitations were so stressful that it affected my skin. Was regularly oiling face and hair during this period so they've fared better.

I have spoken to my GP who thinks it's stress but will do some blood tests and take a morning cortisol reading as the skin issue made me suggest some kind of pseudo cushings. Blood test is this Tuesday. Also have a appointment with an optician tomorrow. Noticed some changes in vision I can feel/see the blood vessel in my left eye. I think there are some artefacts.

Also feel quite thirsty and wake up at night with thirst. Have started experiencing palpitations again more recently in the last few days, hadn't experienced them apart from first two days.

Have noticed my palms are red sometimes and feel itchy. Random aches in joints in feet and fingers. Based on onyomis comments I wonder if there is some k2 induced vasculitis going on this would explain the elevated blood pressure compared to normal weeks on.

Have been taking 3% volatile oil black seed oil and theracumin for the last week or so along with some blueblerries and hibiscus tea to help lower bp. Something feels inflammed. Bso seems to have reduced my stress and calmed me somewhat.

As onyomi mentioned. This experience has put me off supplements for a long time will reduce my supps and try stick to food.

[Believer]

I also have experienced issues.

I was taking 100mcg K2 mk-7 with 4000iu d3. Started to experience increased physiologic response to stress one day. Seemed weird. Carried on taking stack. The next day the sensation got even worse. Carried on taking stack. Then discontinued as I realised something was up.

Tried to go to bed that next day and slepped for an hour woke up sweating with 70/40 blood pressure and had palpitations for 30hours later that day my blood pressure spiked to 140/98 peak which is insane. I'm a skinny 28yr male with normal blood pressure of 95/68. Went to the A&E (that ER for US readers) and EKG and bloods were normal, liver, kidney, calcium etc. Had bleeding gums for a few days after, usually rarely bleeds.

Ceased taking supplents for a few days then took my d3 and K2 pill and things kicked off again. Took two weeks to feel a bit better but my blood pressure is still elevated from normal by 10-15pts tends to be 104/73 in the am with a high first reading of 111/78 due to stress. Afternoon readings are 124/82 first reading and drop to 111/78. Two weeks on.

I have blood shot eyes and my skin on my hands feels weird. Like it's thinned. The simplest explanation is the days following the long palpitations were so stressful that it affected my skin. Was regularly oiling face and hair during this period so they've fared better.

I have spoken to my GP who thinks it's stress but will do some blood tests and take a morning cortisol reading as the skin issue made me suggest some kind of pseudo cushings. Blood test is this Tuesday. Also have a appointment with an optician tomorrow. Noticed some changes in vision I can feel/see the blood vessel in my left eye. I think there are some artefacts.

Also feel quite thirsty and wake up at night with thirst. Have started experiencing palpitations again more recently in the last few days, hadn't experienced them apart from first two days.

Have noticed my palms are red sometimes and feel itchy. Random aches in joints in feet and fingers. Based on onyomis comments I wonder if there is some k2 induced vasculitis going on this would explain the elevated blood pressure compared to normal weeks on.

Have been taking 3% volatile oil black seed oil and theracumin for the last week or so along with some blueblerries and hibiscus tea to help lower bp. Something feels inflammed. Bso seems to have reduced my stress and calmed me somewhat.

As onyomi mentioned. This experience has put me off supplements for a long time will reduce my supps and try stick to food.

Vitamin k increase the levels of the neurotransmitter glutamate, hence the increased stress.You must have reduced function of GAD enzyme like most others.

Increased propensity for bleeding is calcium deficiency as K vitamin lowers blood calcium levels.

[ad506]

Why were my serum calcium levels fine then?

[Believer]

Oh then I don't know. But others have stated their coagulation protein levels were normal

[ad506]

Hello all,

 

I am back with an update

 

tl;dr

 

1) mostly back to normal, but things K2 helped with have reappeared.

2) Onyomis side effects occured at dose that you'd get from 1-2 eggs?

3) I have found side effect data

4) lmao I might start again but at a much lower doseage/wider spacing of doses.

 

 

 

1)

 

I had a eye exam by optician and OCT scan results were good.

 

My body seems to have returned to normal with issues that K2 helped with reappearing after a few weeks.

 

1.  Teeth have yellowed somewhat, (back to normal) even a relative noticed
2.  Varicose vein has reappeared on my right leg, previously barely visible
3.  Sensitivity/ache in my right knee has reappeared
4. chilies seems to give me noticeable elevated heart rate, higher sympathetic activation then previous. I am going to lay off them for a while. (though on the night this all kicked off I did eat a stew with scotch bonnet perhaps the initial sweat and symptoms were due to that?)

2)

 

Onyomi took a 50mcg dose of K2 MK4. this is roughly the dose you would find in 1-2 eggs. The strength of his reaction is somewhat surprising. I am going to list some speculations on my part

• The pills contained more MK4 than listed
• There might of been a hotspot in the pill
• Pill might of contained mk7 instead of mk4
• previous mk7 supplementation may have meant he had plenty of vitamin k2 in his body, this + lower k2 metabolism could have caused some issues?
• perhaps the earlier posters were correct and its a nocebo/some other condition
• mk4 was not bio identical this is a controversy atm with mk7 the trans version exists in natto but some supplements contain a fraction of cis mk7

3)

 

Study/Trial data on K2 adverse events doesnt really exist (apart from one table I found) so we rely on anecdotes on the internet from here, amazon review, inspire.com osteoporosis (lots of anecdotes/discussion here)

The trial data I found was published in a packages insert for a high dose prescription k2 mk4 supplement used in Japan by Glakay. I found that this pdf document had the advesre events extracts published by people online but the document they linked to was no longer available. I did however find the data republished by a review article by UK gov body examining vitamin k for osteoporosis/fractures in women. They also commented on the lack of adverse events data and cited the glakay insert as the only example.

 

Its the first table here -> (pg37/174 https://journalslibrary.nihr.ac.uk/hta/hta13450/#/abstract, https://doi.org/10.3310/hta13450)

 

 

also available here reputable seems to be a medline but for asia https://www.mims.com...verse-reactions

 

I have also attached it below. fwiw onyomis and the commonly reported symptoms are all identified here but this is a 45mg dose....

 

4)

 

In view of the return of the knee sensitivity and the varicose vein prominence I think I want to try again but at much lower dosage apparently 1.5mg mk4 is enough for some to have seen benefits both anecdotally and a study found it maintained bmd in postmenopausal women https://pubmed.ncbi.....gov/23702931/ an relevant anecdote noting low dose benefits also noted iteractions with some supplements (https://www.inspire.com/groups/national-osteoporosis-foundation/discussion/k2-mk4-might-have-adverse-interactions-with-opc-and-other-bioflavonoids/)

 

 

Attached Files

•  glakay.png   59.29KB   0 downloads

[kurdishfella]

for me vitamin K caused delayed bleeding when I wound myself it takes few seconds for blood to come out if at all if its small one

Edited by kurdishfella, 07 February 2022 - 06:30 AM.