79 replies to this topic

[dunbar]

I am shocked. Now suddenly all fats are bad even nuts and olive oil.

http://www.betheheal...et-damaged.html

[zorba990]

Red wine plus green olive oil
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18978163
J Am Coll Nutr. 2008 Aug;27(4):448-53.
Postprandial improvement of endothelial function by red wine and olive oil antioxidants: a synergistic effect of components of the Mediterranean diet.

[niner]

dunbar, don't believe everything you read on the internet. The author of that blog is a vegetarian true believer who would like to convert you to her religion.

[dunbar]

So basically this study says the exact opposite. What now?

I wonder does it even make sense to deal with stuff like that? It seems so senseless to me
when you can't even know if the diet you follow or the stuff you take is really good or not. This is very discouraging.

dunbar, don't believe everything you read on the internet. The author of that blog is a vegetarian true believer who would like to convert you to her religion.

Okay, this may be true. But what about this doctor and his study?

Dr. Robert A. Vogel of the University of Maryland School of Medicine demonstrated the direct and immediate impact of fatty food on our endothelial cells in 1999

[zorba990]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18275619
Br J Nutr. 2008 Jul;100(1):159-65. doi: 10.1017/S0007114508888708. Epub 2008 Feb 14.
Chronic effects of a high-fat diet enriched with virgin olive oil and a low-fat diet enriched with alpha-linolenic acid on postprandial endothelial function in healthy men.

Fuentes F, López-Miranda J, Pérez-Martínez P, Jiménez Y, Marín C, Gómez P, Fernández JM, Caballero J, Delgado-Lista J, Pérez-Jiménez F.
Chronic ingestion of a Mediterranean diet avoids the postprandial deterioration of endothelial function associated with Westernised diets in healthy individuals.

high quality olive oil and take lots of antioxidants!

Edited by zorba990, 20 January 2014 - 02:49 AM.

[JohnD60]

Okay, this may be true. But what about this doctor and his study?

Dr. Robert A. Vogel of the University of Maryland School of Medicine demonstrated the direct and immediate impact of fatty food on our endothelial cells in 1999

Did you read the study, not just the summary, what did it say? Did you research the background of the doctor that published the study, is he an ideologue like the blog poster?

eta: funny how she includes a quote from Einstein on being a Vegetarian, but AE didn't start being a vegetarian until he was 75 years old and physically and mentally addled, and then he died a year later.

Edited by JohnD60, 20 January 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Always consider the source. An experiement doesn't give you answers, it gives you data. And that data can be skewed many different ways by someone with an agenda. That study was crap, written by someone who was setting out to prove fat was bad, and was re-reported on a militant vegetarian blog, then re-re-reported here by you. So... yeah I wouldn't buy that study.

[maxwatt]

IF we believed every study showing something is bad for you, we'd try to eliminate fats. And carbs, we all know carbs make you fat, cause insulin resistance and heart disease. And protein, it damages your kidneys and leads to cancer.. Once you have successfully eliminated these three deleterious food components, you will achieve immortality. But it has to be a successful elimination or you will surely die.

(Tongue firmly in cheek)

[timar]

niner is right. I recommend Breatharianism (but only if you live in the uplands of the Himalaya with its unpoluted mountain air).

(I just made the mistake of being ingenuous enough to try to rationally discuss dietary fats with some of the Esselstyn "true believer" crowd over at nutritionfacts.org. Futile endeavor. Those poeple are ardent cult followers for which their infallible Master's words are the dietary gospel...)

Edited by timar, 24 January 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Mind]

The longest-lived people in the world have all eaten fat. Some of them have eaten copious quantities of fat for their entire lives.

[dunbar]

But what kind of fats are healthy? Is animal fat healthy?

And what if the people which live long and eat a lot of fat eat animals which are naturally raised compared to animals which
are treated with hormones to make them grow faster?

[Castiel]

But what kind of fats are healthy? Is animal fat healthy?

And what if the people which live long and eat a lot of fat eat animals which are naturally raised compared to animals which
are treated with hormones to make them grow faster?

I think vegetable fat, particularly that found in chocolate can't be too detrimental as the lifespan record holder ate over 2 pounds of chocolate per week.

[dunbar]

Do we know what kind of chocolate? What if it was a special chocolate which cannot be compared to normal chocolate?

[joelcairo]

Do you know what's bad for you? Stressing out over every single decision in your life. Just eat some good quality dark chocolate. Your body will thank you and vice versa.

[dunbar]

But how do I recognize good quality dark chocolate? I heard that all commerical chocolate sucks even dark chocolate cause the heat destroyed the antioxidants.

[Mind]

But how do I recognize good quality dark chocolate? I heard that all commerical chocolate sucks even dark chocolate cause the heat destroyed the antioxidants.

A simple way is to just go with the higher priced bars that state the cocoa content on the front. I only buy the stuff that is 70% or higher cocoa.

[timar]

But how do I recognize good quality dark chocolate? I heard that all commerical chocolate sucks even dark chocolate cause the heat destroyed the antioxidants.

Go for the premium chocolates with at least 70% cocoa solids. You can actually taste the antioxidants in the chocolate. The bitterer and sourer the chocolate, the more antioxidants it contains. Contrarily, a bland tasting dark chocolate is probably rather low in antioxidants. From my experience the organic, fair trade varieties are not only preferable for ethical reasons but also tend to be made from less processed, stronger-tasting cocoa.

In general, I can only agree with what joelcairo wrote. You behave like a scaredy cat. Please try to heed the advice I have given you.

[mikela]

Cocoa Via, however, it's pricey

http://www.cocoavia.com/

[zorba990]

I find berries and cocoa go well together. e.g. blending blueberries and
http://www.iherb.com...63&sr=null&ic=2

[timar]

Cocoa Via, however, it's pricey

http://www.cocoavia.com/

Incredible that they actually manage to persuade people into buying their cocoa extract supplements. What a waste of money and what a waste of taste! Maybe it's because some people are concerned about the saturated fat content of cocoa butter. It it is mostly stearic acid though, most of which is converted to oleic acid in the liver and therefore is the most benign of all long chain saturated fatty acids. The effects of cocoa butter should be closer to olive oil than to any other vegetable fat.

[blood]

Incredible that they actually manage to persuade people into buying their cocoa extract supplements.

The standardised levels of polyphenols are appealing.

Edited by blood, 02 February 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[timar]

Incredible that they actually manage to persuade people into buying their cocoa extract supplements.

The standardised levels of polyphenols are appealing.

Well, certainly not to me. If you look at the ingredient list for the sachets, it actually lists "Cocoa Powder (Processed with Alkali), Maltodextrin, Natural Flavor, Carrageenan, Salt, Soy Lecithin" WTF? It is well known that alkali processing actually lowers the polyphenol levels in cocoa. This just seems to be ordinary, low-polyphenol cocoa powder sold ridiculously overpriced.

Let's crunch the numbers though. According to the Phenol-Explorer, ordinary, plain cocoa powder has a mean content of ~44 mg flavanols per gram. You would need 5.7 g of standard cocoa powder for the 250 mg flavanols contained in a sachet of CocoaVia. Given that a sachet is 7.7 g and contains some other ingredients, the alkali-processed cocao powder delivering those meagre 250 mg of flavonols is most certainly the ordinary variety the producer Mars Inc. uses for its entire range of confectionery products.

Now let's compare prices, assuming that each sachet contains 5.7 g ordinary cocao powder. A 30-sachet box is $35 which is about $20 for 100 g of cocoa compared to $1 for 100 g of bulk cocao powder. Seems like Mars Inc. cleverly found a way to sell their cocao powder for a premium of 2000% by marketing it to as a cardiovacular health supplement to those people which became sick in the first place by eating to many Mars, Snickers & co. You can say what you want, they know how to make a business, don't they?

Edited by timar, 02 February 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[blood]

According to the Phenol-Explorer, ordinary, plain cocoa powder has a mean content of ~44 mg flavanols per gram.

How did you derive that figure?

Look at this non-alkalized cocoa made by NOW:

http://www.iherb.com...2-oz-340-g/5023

... each serving of NOW non-alkalized Organic Cocoa Powder naturally contains 21.5 - 107.5 mg of cocoa flavanols (polyphenols) ...

A serving size is ~22 grams.

Edited by blood, 02 February 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[timar]

According to the Phenol-Explorer, ordinary, plain cocoa powder has a mean content of ~44 mg flavanols per gram.

How did you derive that figure?

Guess what! I added the values for all the flavanol fractions given in the table.

Look at this non-alkalized cocoa made by NOW:

Their very humble numbers probably only account for flavonol monomers, not for the oligomers and polymers which are more difficult to measure (and provide most of the health benefits of cocoa).

[Jeoshua]

If you're going for a good quality Cocoa extract, and you want it in powder form, unfortunately you only have one choice: Chocamine.

It is non-alkalized, and provides high amounts of Polyphenols, Monoamines, Amino Acids, Methylxanthines, and Minerals. It is also patented, so no one else has a product like it. You can find it in quite a few products, like CocoaWell (in which they really just add the Chocamine back into dark chocolate to give it a measurable kick), ChocoMind (which is a really good pill), and ChocoLife (which contains Chocamine Plus, which is just Chocamine plus more Caffeine).

As to the reasons why you might want an extract like this, it provides all the health benefits of Cocoa without any of the bulk of dark chocolate. No sugar, milk, or preservatives. Just the good bits of the Cocoa. It's the difference between taking 500mg of a powder and eating 5g of raw coffee-like bitterness.

Edited by Jeoshua, 02 February 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[timar]

As to the reasons why you might want an extract like this, it provides all the health benefits of Cocoa without any of the bulk of dark chocolate. No sugar, milk, or preservatives. Just the good bits of the Cocoa. It's the difference between taking 500mg of a powder and eating 5g of raw coffee-like bitterness.

There are no reasonable reasons, except for increasing the profits of the supplement companies holding the patents or selling those extracts. If you want "all the health benefits of Cocoa without any of the bulk of dark chocolate", simply go for plain organic, undutched cocao powder. "No sugar, milk, or preservatives. Just the good bits of the Cocoa." And there is much more goodness to the taste than just bitterness, as you imply. Just add a bit of oligofructose and/or xylitol if you desire some sweetness that doesn't affect your blood sugar or hurt your teeth and provides the additional health-benefits of a prebiotic.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of plant extracts worth taking, either because they are much more potent and economical or just because the raw material they are made from is not very enjoyable. This is certainly true for grape seed, pine bark and many medical plant extracts or isolated polyphenols like quercetin or resveratrol. Green tea and turmeric are rather enjoyable for most people, but the extracts at least provide the benefits of being highly concentrated and economical.

Cocoa and red wine extracts on the other hand are just a waste of money and culinary pleasure.

Edited by timar, 02 February 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[Debaser]

What about cacao nibs? They're relatively unprocessed compared to a bar of dark chocolate, and they don't have any sugar added.

[joelcairo]

Chocamine have an impressive sales pitch, but is it really any better than the organic cold-pressed cocoa powder I can get at my local health food store?

[Jeoshua]

Oh, it's upsetting to me that Chocamine is made and marketed under a restrictive patented process, but as far as it's effects go it is very well worth that initial insult. It's concentrated raw cocoa, so everything good about cocoa, including the flavor, is in there. Look at it like 500% dark chocolate, in comparison to the 70-80% you normally get with dark chocolate, or 100% with raw cocoa nibs.

If you're looking for a source of Theobromine, Caffeine, or Polyphenols, and not a snack, I highly recommend it,

Edited by Jeoshua, 02 February 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[timar]

Do you have any affiliation with the company producing Chocamine, Jeoshua?

The phrase "No sugar, milk, or preservatives. Just the good bits of the Cocoa" seems to be taken straight from the company's advertisement. Affiliation or not, it is pathetic to mindlessly parrot marketing phrases, especially if they are such BS. All those attributes of course apply to plain cocoa powder as well, which contains actually very modest amounts of fat and carbohydrates but lots of fiber and some high quality protein. The major "benefit" of Chocamine is that it strips the phytochemicals of the fiber.

Look at it like 500% dark chocolate, in comparison to the 70-80% you normally get with dark chocolate, or 100% with raw cocoa nibs.

Can you provice any source showing that Chocamine contains 5 times the concentration of polyphenols contained in plain cocoa powder (44 mg/g) or are you just parroting more completely unsubstantiated marketing hogwash?

If you're looking for a source of Theobromine, Caffeine, or Polyphenols, and not a snack, I highly recommend it,

Isn't it wonderful that nature actually provides us with both in one?

Edited by timar, 02 February 2014 - 11:08 PM.