79 replies to this topic

[Jeoshua]

Do you have any affiliation with the company producing Chocamine, Jeoshua?

Speaking of unsubstantiated, how about you try to prove that I have any kind of ties with the company that makes the stuff. All you've been doing is accusing me of "parroting" phrases, and saying how Raw Cocoa is better than a Cocoa Extract. How about you prove that, and then we can revisit this whole accusation of me being a shill, eh?

Look at it like 500% dark chocolate, in comparison to the 70-80% you normally get with dark chocolate, or 100% with raw cocoa nibs.

Can you provice any source showing that Chocamine contains 5 times the concentration of polyphenols contained in plain cocoa powder (44 mg/g)

Chocamine is standardized to, among other things, 5% polyphenolic content by weight. That comes to 50 mg/g, to use your chosen units. And 500mg of Chocamine Plus contains 50mg of caffeine, that's 10% by weight, or, alternatively, roughly the equivallent of about 300 grams of raw cocoa. I wasn't meaning to imply that it IS a 500% extract of raw cocoa, just that one could roughly think of it as a higher than 100% Dark Chocolate, and admittedly I picked 500% out of my ass. But it is standardized. Some parts are standardized to high levels for raw cocoa. Other parts are standardized to far higher levels, like the caffeine.

Now, I'm sure you'll try to say "that's not evidence", but honestly, can you provide me a source that proves that your raw cocoa powder actually has 44 mg/g of polyphenols? Not something that states it, something that proves it. Or that your chosen raw cocoa source is actually 100% cocoa, and not adulterated with something? And I'm not saying that it doesn't, or that it isn't, I'm saying that you have to apply the same standards of evidence that you're trying to force on me. Prove it, or drop it, because I already fact checked your figure, and it's within a reasonable margin of error for unsweetened cocoa powder, which is technically an extract (missing the cocoa butter and not Raw Cocoa, nor particularly palatable without mixing with water at the very least.

And, true, neither is Chocamine, but it generally comes in a form factor you don't have to taste (although I did try CocoaWell before, which is 14g Raw Cocoa + 500mg Chocamine Plus (which really defeats the purpose and becomes just regular cocoa powder at the concentration they had), but it was pretty tasty with a little sweetener added, and they do make a stevia sweetened kind that I didn't try).

If you're looking for a source of Theobromine, Caffeine, or Polyphenols, and not a snack, I highly recommend it,

Isn't it wonderful that nature actually provides us with both in one?

You act as if I'm trying to say that Raw Cocoa is no good, which is pretty far from anything I actually did ever claim. I just prefer taking a pill, it's just more convenient.

TL;DR I don't work for them, but I've tried the products I've talked about.

Edited by Jeoshua, 03 February 2014 - 12:17 AM.

[dunbar]

Hello,
but the issue is what if commercial supermarket chocolates even if they have like 80% chocolate have been heated
so that the antioxidants have been destroyed? As far as I know they need to be processed carefully and I don't think that
ordinary chocolates companies care much about antioxidants.

That's why people are into raw chocolate. But I looked into it and became scared cause since it's raw it could contain
bacteria,fungus and stuff like that. Seems too risky to me.
And there are also people who saw raw cocoa isn't even healthy but that it's dangerous and can have drug like side effects.

[Jeoshua]

Any way you slice it, high quality raw or standardized cocoa products are going to be the best choices. If the cocoa is old, dutched, diluted, cooked, treated, mixed, or blanched, it will just kind of be chocolate: a different beast, altogether.

And just because it is "raw" doesn't mean it is "dirty". This isn't meat we're talking about, here.

Edited by Jeoshua, 03 February 2014 - 02:15 AM.

[dunbar]

But there are no real reputable companies which seel raw cocoa. If you want the stuff you have to buy it online from
"organic" shops who import it from somewhere. And I even read warnings on such shop websites that you must heat the beans
in the oven before eating them to kill bacteria. This is too scary for me.

And I'm also not sure if raw cocoa is really safe. I mean if this stuff is more potent than chocolate then how do we know if it's safe?
What if for example it has ingredients which are active psychic agents? What if it can cause hallucinations or what if it has MAOI qualities?
Especially when I'm taking an antidepressant I'd be worried of side effects. I mean if I ask my doc about raw chocolate he'll not have a clue what I'm talking
about and simply say not to eat it.

[Jeoshua]

What if for example it has ingredients which are active psychic agents? What if it can cause hallucinations or what if it has MAOI qualities?

It has some amino acids and caffeine, but on the whole nothing that you should ever have to worry about any more than a cup of coffee. And it doesn't cause hallucinations.

[dunbar]

Have you ever typed into google raw cocoa safety?
Lots of hits.

[timar]

Speaking of unsubstantiated, how about you try to prove that I have any kind of ties with the company that makes the stuff. All you've been doing is accusing me of "parroting" phrases, and saying how Raw Cocoa is better than a Cocoa Extract. How about you prove that, and then we can revisit this whole accusation of me being a shill, eh?

How could I possibly prove that, given that I don't even know your name? This is why I asked.

Can you provice any source showing that Chocamine contains 5 times the concentration of polyphenols contained in plain cocoa powder (44 mg/g)

Chocamine is standardized to, among other things, 5% polyphenolic content by weight. That comes to 50 mg/g, to use your chosen units.

So Chocamine has roughly the same polyphenol content as ordinary cocoa powder. I'm really impressed.

Some parts are standardized to high levels for raw cocoa. Other parts are standardized to far higher levels, like the caffeine.

Polyphenols are obviously not "standardized to high levels for raw cocoa" but to medium levels for ordinary, processed cocoa. The Polyphenol-Explorer (see the above link) gives medium values for processed cocoa powder: 4377 mg per 100 g for flavanols alone. If I want a caffeine-enriched cocoa, I can simply add some pure caffeine to my cocao powder. Costs me less then a thenth of Chocamine and I get all the healthy fiber.

Now, I'm sure you'll try to say "that's not evidence", but honestly, can you provide me a source that proves that your raw cocoa powder actually has 44 mg/g of polyphenols?

As I've said, that's just a medium value for processed cocoa powder. I never said that I'm using raw cocoa powder, I like the taste of roasted cocoa far better and the polyphenol content is high enough anyway, no need to know the exact amount or to buy raw cocoa.

You act as if I'm trying to say that Raw Cocoa is no good, which is pretty far from anything I actually did ever claim. I just prefer taking a pill, it's just more convenient.

And very expensive and ineffective. The only reason I could think of is if you absolutely can't stand the taste of cocoa...

TL;DR I don't work for them, but I've tried the products I've talked about.

Ok, sorry for accusing you to be a shill. But it is one thing to like a product and another thing make such nonsensical and indiscriminate statements about it like "just the good bits of cocao" or "500% dark chocolate", which sound like the fluffiest kind of marketing fluff.

Edited by timar, 03 February 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[timar]

Have you ever typed into google raw cocoa safety?
Lots of hits.

dunbar, have you ever typed "generalized anxiety disorder" into google?

Edited by timar, 03 February 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[timar]

This is another recent study, in which two different samples of ordinary cocao powder were independently analyzed by 12 different laboratories. The avarage measured content of flavanols was 60.4 mg/g, considerably more than the 43.7 mg/g from the Phenol-Explorer database. In summary, we have plenty of high quality sources showing that ordinary (non-dutch processed) cocao powder contains about 50 mg/g of flavanols.

A major reason for taking an extract would be that it is considerably more concentrated than the raw material it is made from. In this case I have shown that both CocoaVia and Chocamine provide about the same level of polyphenols found in ordinary cocoa powder on a gram by gram basis while being ten to twenty times as expensive. If you really hate the taste of chocolate, you could as well put raw cocoa powder into capsules.

[blood]

This is another recent study, in which two different samples of ordinary cocao powder were independently analyzed by 12 different laboratories. The avarage measured content of flavanols was 60.4 mg/g, considerably more than the 43.7 mg/g from the Phenol-Explorer database. In summary, we have plenty of high quality sources showing that ordinary (non-dutch processed) cocao powder contains about 50 mg/g of flavanols.

A major reason for taking an extract would be that it is considerably more concentrated than the raw material it is made from. In this case I have shown that both CocoaVia and Chocamine provide about the same level of polyphenols found in ordinary cocoa powder on a gram by gram basis while being ten to twenty times as expensive. If you really hate the taste of chocolate, you could as well put raw cocoa powder into capsules.

Interestingly, that study appears to have been funded by Mars (the company you were criticising earlier in the thread for profiteering wrt their cocoa flavanol extract products).

Looking at their Cocoapro resource page, it appears that Mars' scientists have led a rather extensive (and probably expensive) decades long investigation into the health benefits of cocoa flavonols. Here is their rationale for developing the cocoa flavanol extract drink (marketed as CocoaVia):

http://www.cocoaproc...l_research.html

During the late 1990s, research by Mars and its collaborators offered compelling evidence that flavanols present in cocoa could favorably influence levels of nitric oxide in the cardiovascular system... These results created a strong interest in understanding whether cocoa flavanols could have similar effects in the human body following consumption, and perhaps help support healthy cardiovascular function... Mars had to demonstrate that the in vitro findings could be translated in vivo (i.e., human clinicals). Specifically, could the consumption of products that contained high amounts of cocoa flavanols improve the nitric oxide-dependent cardiovascular function, and thus ultimately contribute to supporting overall cardiovascular health?
Mars' initial efforts used a bitter, astringent cocoa powder drink that research subjects found unpalatable. Later, a switch was made to using the Dove® dark chocolate bar. While certainly palatable, the chocolate bars were deemed unacceptable for continuing research for several reasons:

• Chocolate is a complex matrix creating many variables during absorption and metabolism following consumption by humans
• The chocolate bars were higher in calories than appropriate for most dietary intervention clinical studies, especially those that would be conducted for several weeks or months and would require daily consumption of cocoa flavanol-containing products.
• Mars was concerned that this research effort on cocoa flavanols might be incorrectly perceived as a way of promoting chocolate as a “health food.”

During this time, Mars scientists were developing the Cocoapro® process, which – unlike other cocoa processing techniques – preserves large amounts of flavanols in finished products. This became the basis for Mars cocoa flavanol-containing products, and also the basis for developing and supplying a clinical drink product that could enable precise clinical research with cocoa flavanols while minimizing potential concerns regarding taste, matrix complexity, caloric density and/or perception.

Throughout the years, we have used various clinical products in our research program. These products have ranged from simply high cocoa flavanol cocoa powder or chocolate, to easy-to-use and nutritionally-balanced beverage mixes. All the high-flavanol test products used in our research were made using the Cocoapro® process. Specially created low flavanol/zero-flavanol products that are indistinguishable in taste and appearance, as well as calorically- and nutritionally-matched, have also been produced. These low flavanol products serve as important controls in our research. The careful development of both the high flavanol and low flavanol/zero flavanol control products enables the blinding of product identities throughout the study - a critical point often overlooked in nutrition research - and allows for our studies to adhere to the highest standards in research.

Following this advance, a critical development step occurred when this clinical beverage product was matched by a control drink free of cocoa flavanols, which tastes the same and has the same nutritional values as the flavanol drink. (Having a well-matched control is often missing in nutrition research due to the natural variabilities in food.) These research tools made possible human clinical research at a high level of scientific quality, with publication of results in top peer-reviewed journals.

But even before these studies could be done, Mars, Incorporated invested in the development of methods of analysis. With these methods, Mars scientists were able to reliably characterize and quantify the unique mixture of flavanols in cocoa. It was this investment in analysis that enabled the study of cocoa flavanols from the farm to food. Additionally, it was this investment that made possible the development of the process, which – unlike common cocoa processing techniques – preserves more of the flavanols found naturally in cocoa.

Being able to analyze and process cocoa flavanols in such a way so as to retain more flavanols were critical steps enabling the research on the benefits of cocoa flavanol-containing products to human health. Furthermore, by understanding processing and having the appropriate analytical tools, it was possible to develop the appropriate controls needed for high caliber research.

With the proper analytical tools, the ability to make the needed materials for research, and the preliminary data on cocoa flavanols and nitric oxide, the next critical step in research could be taken. That is, the ability to conduct studies on the health benefits of cocoa flavanols in humans. This research program began over a decade ago, and has resulted in over 140 peer-reviewed scientific papers. For more information on this body of research, go to HealthyCocoa.com.

I don't blame them for trying to recoup some of the money they've spent on research.

Promotional blurb on the CocoaPro process:

http://www.cocoapro....t_cocoapro.html

Cocoapro®, a process developed and patented by Mars, Incorporated scientists, helps to preserve the cocoa flavanols that occur naturally and abundantly in cocoa beans. The Cocoapro® process begins from the moment the beans are harvested and continues through every step of the process from fresh beans to finished product.
In the typical processes for making cocoa or chocolate, the flavanols are easily destroyed by time, temperature and moisture. Though processing of cocoa beans into cocoa products can and often does destroy the flavanols in cocoa, it is important to recognize that the destruction of flavanols begins from the time that the cocoa beans are harvested. Mars’ Cocoapro® process is different. This patented process centers around a gentler, less harsh way of handling and processing cocoa beans from the time they are harvested through the time that they are made into finished products so that all products made using this Cocoapro® process deliver more of the flavanols found naturally in cocoa.

For over two decades, Mars has led the way in the development and use of analytical techniques to reliably identify and measure the flavanols in cocoa. This has allowed us to improve our understanding of which cocoa flavanols retained via the Cocoapro® process may impact human health. As a result of this commitment to research, Mars scientists have been able to develop processes that retain more of the naturally-occurring cocoa flavanols that matter.

We have extensively studied cocoa – from what happens within the bean to what happens within the body and we continue to study cocoa today. But what has been foundational to the program is our analytical expertise, and Cocoapro®. Since the beginning our research program, we have been collaborating with scientists at leading universities and research institutions around the world in the study of cocoa flavanols, publishing ground-breaking research in the field.

Cocoapro® is a patented process for preserving flavanols, but it is more than this. The Cocoapro® process has enabled an entire research program into the potential impact of cocoa flavanols on human health, a program that continues today.

To learn more about the clinical research conducted with products using the unique Mars Cocoapro® process, check here Cocoapro Clinical Research.

I was interested to see this on the Dove webpage:

http://www.dovechocolate.com/aboutDove

Mars' patented COCOAPRO^® process ensures that DOVE^®Dark Chocolate retains much of the healthy cocoa flavanols.

Edited by blood, 03 February 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[dunbar]

dunbar, have you ever typed "generalized anxiety disorder" into google?

So this means all people who say raw cocoa is risky have GAD?

[timar]

No, but people who are "stressing out over every single decision in life", as joelcairo put it.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that to bug you but to help you. You should think about seeking professional help with that condition. You seem to be ridden by a general anxiety that is most certainly much more damaging to your health and well-being than most of the things you are worried about could ever be (and you seem to be worried about pretty much everything).

Edited by timar, 04 February 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[nupi]

This is another recent study, in which two different samples of ordinary cocao powder were independently analyzed by 12 different laboratories. The avarage measured content of flavanols was 60.4 mg/g, considerably more than the 43.7 mg/g from the Phenol-Explorer database. In summary, we have plenty of high quality sources showing that ordinary (non-dutch processed) cocao powder contains about 50 mg/g of flavanols.

Thanks. So in sum, I will keep putting the aforementioned NOW cocoa powder into my Berry-Avocado-Whey-Xylitol (sometimes I also put coconut powder) smoothies.

Edited by nupi, 04 February 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Jeoshua]

This is another recent study, in which two different samples of ordinary cocao powder were independently analyzed by 12 different laboratories. The avarage measured content of flavanols was 60.4 mg/g, considerably more than the 43.7 mg/g from the Phenol-Explorer database. In summary, we have plenty of high quality sources showing that ordinary (non-dutch processed) cocao powder contains about 50 mg/g of flavanols.

Thanks. So in sum, I will keep putting the aforementioned NOW cocoa powder into my Berry-Avocado-Whey-Xylitol (sometimes I also put coconut powder) smoothies.

That sounds tasty. I'd substitute Coconut Cream or MCT oil, something from the Coconut fats family, instead of powder. Good mouth feel and lasting energy.

[nupi]

That sounds tasty. I'd substitute Coconut Cream or MCT oil, something from the Coconut fats family, instead of powder. Good mouth feel and lasting energy.

I once tried MCT oil (indeed, still have the bottle). Gave me some of the worst diarrhea ever. Also, it would require some sort of emulgator to mix. As for coconut cream, that has the nasty habit of becoming super hard when mixed with refrigerated (or frozen, in the case of the berries) stuff.

In the end, Coconut powder (or shredded coconut) is dirt cheap, easy to handle and stores well even if opened.

Edited by nupi, 04 February 2014 - 02:39 PM.

[dunbar]

No, but people who are "stressing out over every single decision in life", as joelcairo put it.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that to bug you but to help you. You should think about seeking professional help with that condition. You seem to be ridden by a general anxiety that is most certainly much more damaging to your health and well-being than most of the things you are worried about could ever be (and you seem to be worried about pretty much everything).

And how exactly is a professional supposed to help me with this?
Shall I simply be totally non-anxious and simply throw everything down my throat and simply assume it must be safe?
Is that the answer?
Even eating too much spinach can cause issues on the long run. There are many dangers out there.

[blood]

Even eating too much spinach can cause issues on the long run. There are many dangers out there.

Yes, but your assessment of the various risks is so unbalanced, that you risk doing yourself harm.
For example, your almost complete avoidance of fruit, vegetables, cocoa - from fear of pesticides, fungi, etc - means you are now subsisting on a diet of mostly animal products.

[dunbar]

I know, but what shall I do?
I really dont even dare to eat apples or tomatoes anymore cause then even if I wash them I still think that they
contain pesticides which simply cannot be removed and this then ruins all the "psychological benefit" which I get from
eating something healthy. For me this only works if I can actually feel like I'm doing something healthy. :(

[timar]

And how exactly is a professional supposed to help me with this?

The thirst thing is that you have to acknowledge that you suffer from GAD. I'm not a psychologist and anyway it's impossible to give a diagnose over the internet but from everything you have written here and elsewhere it seems pretty clear cut. A psychologist would either try to find to root cause for you anxiety or simply try to work out behavioral measures how not to indulge in those feelings of anxiety (I would prefer the behavioral approach). This would be supported by some anxiolytic prescription, e.g. Opipramol or an SSRI.

Edited by timar, 05 February 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[dunbar]

Finding a root cause doesn't change anything. This is just a myth. I can think of many root causes in my past but this changes nothing.

Just because I have GAD does this mean I should take no fear serious? What if it's a valid fear?
Other people also seem to worry about raw cacoa for example.

[nupi]

Finding a root cause doesn't change anything. This is just a myth. I can think of many root causes in my past but this changes nothing.

Just because I have GAD does this mean I should take no fear serious? What if it's a valid fear?
Other people also seem to worry about raw cacoa for example.

No, because you have GAD, you are taking ALL fears TOO serious - be it valid or invalid ones.

[timar]

Finding a root cause doesn't change anything. This is just a myth. I can think of many root causes in my past but this changes nothing.

I don't think that psychoanalysis is a myth. It just doesn't work very well for most poeple (although in some cases it can be very powerful). This is why I recommended behavioral therapy (CBT), actually.

[blood]

I've wondered why there are so few cocoa flavanol/polyphenol extracts on the market. Even LEF cancelled their cocoa gold product. Possible explanation?:

http://www.nutraingr...cocoa-flavanols

Mars sues over cocoa flavanols

By Shane Starling , 14-Apr-2010

Mars Inc is suing Nutraceuticals, Life Extension Foundation and Naturex for infringing nine patents covering the manufacture of its CirkuHealth cocoa flavanols.

Mars said the action, filed in the US District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, was in line with its commitment to, “vigorously enforce its patent portfolio”... Naturex manufacturers a cocoa flavanol extract called Cocoactiv while Nutraceuticals markets Solaray products and Life Extension has Cocoa Gold products. The Nutraceuticals and Life extension products both employ Naturex’s Cocoactiv.

The suit requests an injunction be granted to stop infringing sales and the promotion of the supplements for patented uses.
“This litigation follows the successful enforcement last year of some of the same patents. As standard practice, Mars watches for infringements of its cocoa flavanol patents and reacts appropriately,” Mars spokesperson Hugo Pérez told NutraIngredients-USA.com.
Mars has been researching cocoa flavanols for about 20 years and launched CirkuHealth [now CocoaVia] via its Mars Botanical division in 2009.

More:

http://www.law360.co...lavanol-patents

Naturex Agrees To Stop Violating Mars Flavanol Patents

New York (October 01, 2010, 7:27 PM ET) -- Naturex SA has agreed to recognize Mars Inc.’s patents related to cocoa flavanol and polyphenol and will stop making products that infringe them, marking a successful end to Mars’ defense of nine patents used in supplements that may boost coronary health…

The suit was dismissed as to Life Extension and Nutraceutical on Aug. 12, after those companies voluntarily agreed that the patents were valid and enforceable, according to court documents.

“For nearly two decades, Mars has been studying the process of measuring and maximizing the retention of cocoa flavanols and uncovering their related health benefits, resulting in over 100 scientific publications and a broad patent portfolio. This suit is consistent with the long-standing commitment at Mars to vigorously protect its intellectual property,” Mars said in a statement.

Naturex made the infringing extract and then sold it to Nutraceutical and LEF, which used it, respectively, in their Solaray- and Cocoa Gold-brand nutritional supplements, according to the suit.

Mars sells products using its polyphenol-rich preparations under the Cocoapro brand and also has a new line of flavanol-rich cocoa extract products marketed under the Cirku brand, including a dietary supplement beverage mix called CirkuHealth, according to the lawsuit.

The M&Ms maker said in the complaint that its polyphenol and flavanol-laden products can potentially prevent or treat cardiovascular disease, diabetes and dementia while generally promoting vascular health and blood flow.

The asserted patents, all issued between November 2002 and October 2006, cover processes for removing the cocoa polyphenol-rich extracts and turning them into products to help treat high blood pressure, atherosclerosis and other vascular-related conditions.

The patents were developed by Mars Symbioscience, a global health and life sciences division of the candy giant that “works on innovative solutions that change the way we care for ourselves and the natural world,” according to the statement.

Edited by blood, 06 February 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[timar]

Another explanation would be that the extracts simply don't offer many advantages compared to ordinary cocoa powder (less caloric but hardly more concentrated) but major disadvantages (expensive, lack of pleasure derived from chocolate) and the consumers are aware of that.

There are simply some cases where whole foods clearly trump extracts, and cocoa is probably the best one.

[nameless]

But how do I recognize good quality dark chocolate? I heard that all commerical chocolate sucks even dark chocolate cause the heat destroyed the antioxidants.

If you do decide to go with a cocoa, Navitas has really good numbers (or at least that's what they stated years ago). I won't go into safety stuff, as everything potentially has some risks. Personally I don't consume cocoa daily anymore due to oxalates, but that is just me (and my propensity for kidney stones).

I'm almost hesitant to mention it, but if you want to know what sorts of fats are healthy for you, get your Apo E tested. If you aren't 3/4 or 4/4, some saturated fats will probably be okay. If 3/4/ or 4/4, then you'll have to be pickier as to what types of fats you consume. Just don't dwell on it if you happen to come back with a 4 allele -- it's not the end of the world.

[dunbar]

Finding a root cause doesn't change anything. This is just a myth. I can think of many root causes in my past but this changes nothing.

I don't think that psychoanalysis is a myth. It just doesn't work very well for most poeple (although in some cases it can be very powerful). This is why I recommended behavioral therapy (CBT), actually.

But what shall a CBTist say to me to help me? Something like Hey bro, don't worry so much, kay? I have books about CBT. Reading them actually drags me down and scares me cause many of the issues and symptomsthey describe totally fit to me this makes me feel more hopeless. I simply don't feel like the CBT methods can be applied to my case. My issues are simply far too big. I mean the examples in these books are totally differentthan my case. I feel like my case is much more serious than any of the cases in the books which also doesn't makeme feel any better. For example there was an example of a woman who wanted to kill herself cause her BF hadn't calledher in 5 days and she was afraid he was cheating on her. This example is a joke. This is nothing like the REAL issues which I have. I simply don't see how a therapist could help me with a few smart advice. I mean if I cannot reason with myself and come to the conclusion that it's not as bad as I think it is then CBT can't work and I cannot convince myself otherwise.

[blood]

Another explanation would be that the extracts simply don't offer many advantages compared to ordinary cocoa powder (less caloric but hardly more concentrated) but major disadvantages (expensive, lack of pleasure derived from chocolate) and the consumers are aware of that.

I would like to be able to purchase a cocoa flavonol extract, providing a standardised amount of polyphenols, in a non-food format (capsules), at a reasonable price.

I'm pretty sure there are other consumers who would also want this.

Cocoa solids are cheap/ plentiful, it should be possible to make an inexpensive extract. But, it appears that Mars owns some key patents, which has allowed them to push manufacturers like Naturex out of the market.

The CocoaVia capsules provide 250 mg/day cocoa flavonals and occasionally can be had for ~$15 for a months supply, which to me seems closer to reasonable pricing (than the RRP of ~$30/month). If Mars wasn't aggressively asserting it's patents, perhaps we'd see Swanson selling e.g., Naturex standardised cocoa polyphenols for even less.

There are simply some cases where whole foods clearly trump extracts, and cocoa is probably the best one.

Something that strikes me about you, is that you appear to enjoy your food maybe just a little bit *too* much for your own good. Your descriptions of your diet & enjoyment of food are almost lascivious. Putting aside questions of what foods should be eaten, I would guess that a big risk faced by you, and many others, is simply the consumption of too many calories.

(This is rude of me - I'm tempted to ask what your BMI & body fatness are.)

Edited by blood, 07 February 2014 - 02:54 AM.

[timar]

But what shall a CBTist say to me to help me? [Blah blah blah] ...

Frankly, you should stop thinking and start acting, stop doubting and start trusting. If you think nobody can help you because you are smarter than everybody else, you are in trouble indeed. If you don't try to learn some humility by putting your trust in the professional ability of other people you'll probably end up learning it in a much harder and more protracted way. It's your decision.

Edited by timar, 07 February 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[nupi]

For example there was an example of a woman who wanted to kill herself cause her BF hadn't calledher in 5 days and she was afraid he was cheating on her. This example is a joke. This is nothing like the REAL issues which I have.

That actually sounds like more of a real issue than your deliberations on here...

I still have some doubts if you are not simply trolling, all you write is just SO text book.

[timar]

There are simply some cases where whole foods clearly trump extracts, and cocoa is probably the best one.

Something that strikes me about you, is that you appear to enjoy your food maybe just a little bit *too* much for your own good. Your descriptions of your diet & enjoyment of food are almost lascivious. Putting aside questions of what foods should be eaten, I would guess that a big risk faced by you, and many others, is simply the consumption of too many calories.

LOL, so advocating whole foods over supplements seems suspicious to you?

You seem to be possesed by the strange, Calvinist idea that sensual pleasure and well-being are antagonisms. That idea is completely foreign to Mediterranean culture. I would go so far as to say that this very idea is at least in part responsible for the sorry state of today's mainstream diet in the US and other countries influenced by Calvinist thought. In my opinion, any kind of puritan, anti-pleasure attitude inevitably turns what is good and natural into some dysfunctional evil. If you condemn sex or food for their sensual pleasures, people will develop a unhealthy attitute towards them: voilá, there you have the fast food and porn industries! Sex reduced to the mere act of penetration, food reduced to mere calories.

And yet people derive a perverted kind of pleasure from that because they are poeple and they don't know the real deal...

(This is rude of me - I'm tempted to ask what your BMI & body fatness are.)

Perhaps I should keep a BMI bar in my signature, like poeple do in those weight loss forums? That would probably be the only way to satisfy your inquisitiveness, as you have already asked for my BMI in another topic about a month ago and I actually answered that question (no, I haven't put on ten pounds since then because of eating too much chocolate)

Edited by timar, 07 February 2014 - 11:16 AM.