4 replies to this topic

[caruga]

Is it compatible with the anatomy of a spleen that it could make a squirting sound? Or is it more likely the pancreas I'm hearing, even though that's not where the sound came from?

[xEva]

I also had an experience a few years ago that gave me the impression that spleen must have some ..passage? leading into the stomach. Initially I thought that I had overlooked this detail in my informal anatomy studies, and so I spent over a week googling around -- and found nothing in support of this idea. It did not dissuade me though. Instead, I became convinced that our knowledge of human anatomy is still incomplete -- as unbelievable as it sounds in the 21st C! (but actually this is supported by the fact that the mainstream still knows nothing about the primo-vascular system; and there may be other things we still do not know about).

Because of that experience, I came up with a hypothesis that old immune cells (such as old macrophages packed with pathogens they captured but could not destroy) are filtered out by the spleen and then this filtrate is squirted into the stomach where it is immediately doused with HCl and thus not only the pathogens it contains are neutralized but also all that protein is digested and utilized.

This normally happens only when the stomach is absolutely empty (presumably to prevent its content from backing up into this passage). These 2 events, squirting of the splenic filtrate and release of HCl, happen in such a quick succession that normally they perceived as one. Universally this is interpreted as a release of digestive juices in anticipation of a meal.

This reasonable at first glance interpretation does not make much sense though. Why would the stomach release HCl in advance? What if the 'anticipated' meal does not come? Even though some conditioning a la Pavlov's dog may take place in some settings, this does not fit Nature's usual economy.

According to the current state of knowledge, the filtered-out old macrophages are believed to be transferred via splenic vein to the liver where they are destroyed. Not much is said about how exactly this happens and nothing is said about the fate of the pathogens they harbor -- what happens to them and what destroys them, if original macrophages could not do that? Presumably, liver macrophages do that (a la 'turtles all the way down!').

In contrast, my hypothesis appears as a more efficient and direct way of dealing with this old immune cells problem. It also explains why spleen sits right on top of the stomach. I believe that the muscular spasm that immediately precedes the event squeezes the spleen filtrate into the stomach. And that the squirting that you sense.

BTW, according to the current state of knowledge, the lymphatic ducts surrounding the whole GI tract, including the stomach, have one-way valves and all drain in one direction (away). My 'studies of one' do not support this idea. I believe that the flow of the lymphatics surrounding the GI tract goes in both directions, in the manner of ocean tides. When we eat, the flow is away from the GI tract; and when we fast, the direction reverses and the content is drained into the GI tract -- Either this or there must be something else which we have overlooked. To me this explains how so much stuff accumulates in the GI tract during a fast just in a day or two after a thorough 4L saline purge that leaves the whole tube 'squeaky clean'.

I also believe that these 'lymphatic tides' is one of the reasons why fasting once a week has such universally positive effects on health. If we continuously eat, especially if we overindulge, this process is impeded and the lymphatic systems backs up.

And the reason for all these gaps in our knowledge, I believe, is because there are not enough studies of fasting beyond 'molecular pathways'. A lot goes on during a fast also on a gross level, but because of the assumption that we know all that already no one studies this.


I am very glad that you brought this up. I hope that more people will join in and this will spur an investigation.

(!!) Actually people with enlarged spleen or a similar condition, with enlarged stomach lymph nodes, both of which are quite fittingly accompanied by lack of appetite, could confirm this observation (that's how I got to notice this at first).

[caruga]

I also had an experience a few years ago that gave me the impression that spleen must have some ..passage? leading into the stomach. Initially I thought that I had overlooked this detail in my informal anatomy studies, and so I spent over a week googling around -- and found nothing in support of this idea. It did not dissuade me though. Instead, I became convinced that our knowledge of human anatomy is still incomplete -- as unbelievable as it sounds in the 21st C! (but actually this is supported by the fact that the mainstream still knows nothing about the primo-vascular system; and there may be other things we still do not know about).

Because of that experience, I came up with a hypothesis that old immune cells (such as old macrophages packed with pathogens they captured but could not destroy) are filtered out by the spleen and then this filtrate is squirted into the stomach where it is immediately doused with HCl and thus not only the pathogens it contains are neutralized but also all that protein is digested and utilized.

This normally happens only when the stomach is absolutely empty (presumably to prevent its content from backing up into this passage). These 2 events, squirting of the splenic filtrate and release of HCl, happen in such a quick succession that normally they perceived as one. Universally this is interpreted as a release of digestive juices in anticipation of a meal.

This reasonable at first glance interpretation does not make much sense though. Why would the stomach release HCl in advance? What if the 'anticipated' meal does not come? Even though some conditioning a la Pavlov's dog may take place in some settings, this does not fit Nature's usual economy.

According to the current state of knowledge, the filtered-out old macrophages are believed to be transferred via splenic vein to the liver where they are destroyed. Not much is said about how exactly this happens and nothing is said about the fate of the pathogens they harbor -- what happens to them and what destroys them, if original macrophages could not do that? Presumably, liver macrophages do that (a la 'turtles all the way down!').

In contrast, my hypothesis appears as a more efficient and direct way of dealing with this old immune cells problem. It also explains why spleen sits right on top of the stomach. I believe that the muscular spasm that immediately precedes the event squeezes the spleen filtrate into the stomach. And that the squirting that you sense.

BTW, according to the current state of knowledge, the lymphatic ducts surrounding the whole GI tract, including the stomach, have one-way valves and all drain in one direction (away). My 'studies of one' do not support this idea. I believe that the flow of the lymphatics surrounding the GI tract goes in both directions, in the manner of ocean tides. When we eat, the flow is away from the GI tract; and when we fast, the direction reverses and the content is drained into the GI tract -- Either this or there must be something else which we have overlooked. To me this explains how so much stuff accumulates in the GI tract during a fast just in a day or two after a thorough 4L saline purge that leaves the whole tube 'squeaky clean'.

I also believe that these 'lymphatic tides' is one of the reasons why fasting once a week has such universally positive effects on health. If we continuously eat, especially if we overindulge, this process is impeded and the lymphatic systems backs up.

And the reason for all these gaps in our knowledge, I believe, is because there are not enough studies of fasting beyond 'molecular pathways'. A lot goes on during a fast also on a gross level, but because of the assumption that we know all that already no one studies this.


I am very glad that you brought this up. I hope that more people will join in and this will spur an investigation.

(!!) Actually people with enlarged spleen or a similar condition, with enlarged stomach lymph nodes, both of which are quite fittingly accompanied by lack of appetite, could confirm this observation (that's how I got to notice this at first).

 

Sorry for the tardy reply.  That's certainly very interesting, but I find it a tall order to believe that nobody has observed a conduit between spleen and stomach that any simple dissection of an animal could reveal.

 

[xEva]

Yes, I had the same thoughts, and that's why I spent a long time googling everything on spleen and stomach. I came to this conclusion: Normally, the flow of the lymphatic channels (and there are many in stomach wall) is directed toward spleen. This is assured by the valves in the lymphatic vessels. However, under sufficient pressure the direction of this flow can be reversed. When stomach contracts --and it is essentially a muscle-- it can exert enough pressure for this. This is a short version. I hope to convince you with this longer description of the actual event:

That stomach is a very strong muscle, I discovered when those cramps began, after about a 24h fast. And btw, many people actually mean intestinal cramps when they say 'stomach cramps', but I mean precisely stomach cramps. They were unbearable. I had never experienced anything of the sort. Soon I discovered that even a small amount of water stopped this cramping cold. At once. And then it would resume only after the stomach was empty again. My thoughts then were, wow I fasted so many times yet only now I'm discovering what they must have meant by 'hunger pangs'.

My curiosity was piqued and I decided to wait out the next spasm and see what happens. And what happened was that the cramps intensified until something finally 'broke through' the stomach wall, from the left, I could sense it. It felt like a very thick paste, and the reason for pain and cramps must have been the difficulty this substance had getting through a thin channel.

But once this channel was established, the cramps ceased. Instead, there were regular, strong stomach contractions, about once in 30-45 min, as a result of which a small amount of some substance was squeezed into the lumen and then digested as usual. I could sense it clearly.

With time, that substance was getting less and less viscous, until, already on the third day of this, it turned into a very thin liquid that was easily squirted into the lumen by the stomach spasm. I recognized the familiar sensation one often experiences when lunch is delayed. There are 2 events: 1. the stomach churns and some liquid is squirted under pressure into the lumen; 2. this liquid is immediately doused by gastric juices. (I believe, this liquid is is old, filtered out macrophages and such.)

These 2 events happen so suddenly and in such a quick succession, that we perceive only that stomach churned and that gastric juices were released. We miss the bit about the liquid being squirted into the lumen from the side of the spleen. We say, oh that's a conditioned reflex; my usual lunch is delayed. Maybe, but I have an alternative explanation: the most important condition for this to occur is absolutely empty stomach, which is more likely when a meal is delayed. and! That squirted liquid is what causes gastric juices to be released.

In any rate, try and catch this when it happens before lunch. Though from my experience, it happens so unexpectedly and quickly, that by the time you say oh! it's already gone.


Regarding the apparently reversed lymphatic flow thing, I think the idea may be similar to cats' or dogs' anal gland, which is essentially an extension of the lymphatic system, with the direction of the flow dictated by the vessels' valves in. But a strong spasm of the surrounding muscles can empty this gland out, overrunning the valves.

A similar thing must happen with spleen empties its filtrate into the stomach. A strong spasm of the stomach allows this to happen, despite the valves. It also makes a perfect sense from the efficiency of the design point of view. What better way of getting rid of the old immune cells and pathogens they may harbr than eating them for lunch (well, actually, just before lunch).



PS And sorry for the long post. I just don't want to be misunderstood. I saw someone added 'alien race' tags to this thread. haha.

Edited by xEva, 01 November 2014 - 08:24 PM.

[xEva]

Forgot to mention that that incident happened about 4 years ago, when I had chronic hepatitis C and on top of it, just had had a flu. I did not know then that my spleen was enlarged; I surmised that after the fact, when, in the end of those 4 days of fasting I suddenly felt a pleasant lightness and emptiness under my left ribs. I began fasting then, because I had no appetite. Later I read that lack of appetite is a common symptom of enlarged spleen. (and yes, both chronic Hep.C and a flu can result in enlarged spleen).

The other strange thing about that fast was that in those 4 days I did not enter ketosis, which normally occurs no later than 48h after the last meal. I was aware of this strange fact at the time, and thought I must have been "eating" that.. ..don't know what to call it. ..but it must be rich in protein

And so yeah, that was a unique experience in my life, and I'm glad I had it, 'cause it gave me an invaluable insight about our physiology. And when I researched it, I found that, again, there is no convincing descriptions in science as to what happens to the old, spent immune cells. As I said above, the current idea is that they are destroyed by 'liver macrophages'. Then my question is: Who/what takes care of liver macrophages in turn?