18 replies to this topic

[dunbar]

I got a trichogram and it seems like my hair follicles are damaged or degenerated.
My doc said it's related to hair loss even though I do not have hair loss. But it's still scary.
I have to do something about it but I dont want to take rogaine. I read that rogaine can cause
issues with collagen in the face.
Now I wonder are there any other topical solutions which are proven to work and protect the hair
follicles? I dont want to take finasteride either.

[Stefanovic]

Rogaine doesnt do anything bad for my skin.

[Heyman]

Well, Caffeine MIGHT help, Nizoral shampoo has some decent evidence that its working. If I had to chose I'd chose the latter.

[niner]

I suspect that the "rogaine causes collagen problems" thing is an internet myth, based on a misinterpretation of in vitro work. Like Heyman, I'd go with Nizoral a few times a week. Either that or just forget about it. Why did you get a trichogram, anyway?

[nowayout]

Why would you get a trichogram in the absence of hair loss? Are you looking for things to worry about?

I agree the collagen thing is an internet myth. People use Rogaine. People also get older. So it must be that Rogaine makes you get older.

[JohnD60]

There is no hair loss prevention product that is going to meet your safety requirements dunbar

[dunbar]

Hello,
I got the tricho because even though I do not have visible hairloss I have hair changes.
-twisted kinky hair which looks like pubic hair!
-many totally thin hairs

The tricho showed that I have a lot of atrophied hair follicles the doc said that this is concerning and then
asked me about wether I have signs of inflammation. I told him that my crp was normal and then he said I should
take minoxidil. Now I don't know what to do. I mean what if my hair follicle atrophy is a sign of something bigger?
This is worrying.

[MangekyōPeter]

Nizoral works very effectively for this, speaking from personal experience.

[dunbar]

I have been using ketoconazol shampoo already for years!

Doesnt seem to prevent my hair follicle changes.

[rwac]

If you want to thicken your hair, gelatin is great.

http://www.humanclin...g/Collagen.html

[Jeoshua]

Dunbar,

Have you considered that the Ketoconazole may actually be causing these changes, and/or other issues that you have recently posted about? For example, you posted in another thread about low testosterone levels that had you somewhat worried.

As an antiandrogen, ketoconazole operates through at least two mechanisms of action. First, and most notably, high oral doses of ketoconazole (e.g. 400 mg three times per day) block both testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis, leading to a reduction in circulating testosterone levels.^[11] It produces this effect through inhibition of cytochrome P450 isozyme 3A4 and 17,20-lyase, which are involved in the synthesis and degradation of steroids, including the precursors of testosterone. Due to its efficacy at reducing systemic androgen levels, ketoconazole has been used as a treatment for androgen-dependent prostate cancer.^[12] Second, ketoconazole is an androgen receptor antagonist, competing with androgens such as testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for androgen receptor binding. This effect is thought to be quite weak, even with high oral doses of ketoconazole.^[13]

Long story short, you don't have angrogenic allopecia, if you're worrying about low T. So Nizoral/Ketoconazole will not be effective for your situation, and may actually be causing other symptoms you have mentioned.

Edited by Jeoshua, 21 February 2014 - 04:49 PM.

[dunbar]

This is interesting. But what kind of gelatin do you need exactly?
I mean can you just use ordinary gelatin which you get in the supermarket?

I once asked a doc about using supplements for the joints which contain collagen
and he told me that this stuff cannot work cause in the stomach the collagen is broken
up into amino acids and then it's not different from any other protein which you eat.

@ jeoshua

Do you mean that topical ket shampoos could damage the hair follicles? I actually thought that ket was good against hair loss.
I read this a few times on forums that ket shampoo is good for the hair follicles.

I dont really think that topical ket shampoos can have a systemic influence on T levels. I mean my T levels are low because my LH
is low. In all my labs where I had LH measured it was almost always borderline. So I assume that my low T levels are caused by
secondary hypogonadism.
I also already had low T many years ago and at this time I wasn't even using ket shampoo.


Can I not have androgenic allopecia and low T at the same time?
I mean my hairline has receeded over the years. This is obvious. But I dont have hairloss anywhere else.
Only the kinky hair and the thin hairs.

This also worries me. I mean if I already have hair issues even though my T is low then what would happen if I went on TRT and raised my T levels? What if this made my hair issues even worse? :(

Edited by dunbar, 21 February 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Androgenic Allopecia is caused by excessive Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), or at least that is one of the mechanisms currently recognized. It is usually caused either by an excess of Testosterone, or a dysfunction of it's metabolism turning it more quickly into DHT.

Ketoconazole is not "good" for hair, in that it does not improve it's quality or have much effect on the growth process of the hair. Ketoconazole is good for Androgenic Allopecia, due to it's Androgenic Antagonism. As an androgenic antagonist, it inhibits the action of DHT. While taken systemically it can inhibit the synthesis of Androgens, taken topically it just stops the effects of excess DHT at the hair follicle, itself.

However, there are really no long-long term studies (measured in years) on how it might affect androgen synthesis when taken topically. An acute topical does does nothing in that respect, but having that on your scalp every day, maybe a bit seeping into your skin, a bit getting in your eyes, nose, mouth, or other mucous membranes, over a period of years, might actually have a systemic effect. For those who are using Ketoconazole for true androgenic allopecia, this would not be noticed and might help it's effects, but for this situation you are describing.

Reguardless of the source of your low T levels, they are not causing androgenic allopecia. If your DHT is low, too, then something else is at play, and Ketoconazole is not going to be your magic bullet.

Did you mention the Nizoral to the doctor? If so he may have assumed that you found it useful for hair loss, he drew some conclusions from that, and assumed you were self-medicating Androgenic Allopecia... hence the Rogaine suggestion.

Edited by Jeoshua, 21 February 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[dunbar]

I have been using the ket shampoo for years, maybe 1-2 times a week, because of seb eczema. The ket shampoo works really
well against this. I also apply the foam to the affected areas in the face.

The doc said I should use a different shampoo but didnt really get into detail why. But the issue is all the other shampoos dont really
work.I have tried many shampoos against dandruf and seb eczema and they simply dont work for me.

I dont know how high my DHT levels are since DHT usually doesnt get measured. Only 1 time when I was trying T gel I had my DHT
measured and back then it was really high most likely because of the T gel. But I only tried to gel for a few weeks and at this time I already had the issues with the kinky hair and the thin hairs.

My concern is that the kinky hair and the really thin hairs could be something genetical or that it could point to something more serious than simply alopecia.

Edited by dunbar, 21 February 2014 - 05:14 PM.

[rwac]

This is interesting. But what kind of gelatin do you need exactly?
I mean can you just use ordinary gelatin which you get in the supermarket?

I once asked a doc about using supplements for the joints which contain collagen
and he told me that this stuff cannot work cause in the stomach the collagen is broken
up into amino acids and then it's not different from any other protein which you eat.

I like Great Lakes gelatin. You can get the hydroxylated stuff (green can), its easy to mix.
The difference is that the composition of gelatin/collagen is different, there's lots of glycine, proline, hydroxyproline etc.
Some specific peptides generated by digestion of gelatin (PGP) are beneficial too.
Doctors in general are rather poorly informed about supplements. Collagen may not make it into the system intact, but it has its benefits.

[dunbar]

Hello,
not sure if this stuff is available where I'm at.

I have a collagen supplement at home which contains french collagen called Peptan but I havent used it.

http://www.peptan.co...lagen-peptides/

Do you think that this stuff is good? I also worry what if the collagen is derived from cows which have BSE?
This could be dangerous.

[1kgcoffee]

Nothing proven. You can make it look nicer with certain products, but I would think first about what the underlying cause is. Do you have poor circultion? Are you missing key nutrients in your diet? Are you eating a diet high in PUFA leading to excessive production of prostaglandins? Are you taking a supplement or drug that could be causing it? Has your scalp been exposed to any harsh chemicals or physical damage?

Low T is sometimes associated with metabolic syndrome, do you have any other symptoms for that?

How old are you and are you taking good care of yourself. Supplements and topicals are only icing on the cake of good health not miracle workers.

[dunbar]

Poor circulation - Not that I am aware of.

Missing key nutrients - I dont know. I mean I dont measure every nutrient there is. I know that I am rather low on vitamins like A and D.
I have to take D3 to bring my levels up. I dont really know why I am low on vitamins wether it's the diet or something else. A few months
ago I was low on zinc and B6. And now my zinc is improved even though I didnt really change anything. B6 is now also higher than before
but vitamin A is still low.

Are you eating a diet high in PUFA leading to excessive production of prostaglandins - I dont really know. Can prostaglandins be measured? I only know that my CRP is not elevated. I had it measured just last month.

No drug which could cause this. I am using ketoconazole shampoos because of seb eczema on the scalp have been using it for many years. But I dont know if this can cause this.

I dont have metabolic syndrome. I seem to have secondary hypogonadism (low LH).

[dunbar]

What I also see a problematic when it comes to topical scalp treatments is application and absorption.

I mean how are you supposed to apply a liquid or a foam to your scalp without losing most of it because it gets caught up in the hair?
I really dont know how this is supposed to work.
A liquid would probably be easiest but especially a foam or a gel seem very difficult to me. You would have to use much more than you
really need because most of it will be lost in their hair.

Imagine you have a beard and then try to apply a cream to your face which is supposed to touch the skin it won't work very well.

Edited by dunbar, 21 February 2014 - 06:41 PM.