49 replies to this topic

[Charles J. Daniels]

Well I'll let you know. I found out that forskolin was fat soluble and mentioned it on the monster thread since no one had, but since I hadn't originally classified it as fat soluble I kept forgetting. I eat tons of healthy fats, but take ciltep early on a mainly empty stomach ~except~ for some fat when I remember, which I haven't been lately. Perhaps some of my better effects earlier were from those days. I'm gonna go take my ciltep right now with 1/2 tablespoon each of olive oil and coconut.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Alright so, I took the same dosages as yesterday to give a better comparison with and without fat:

200mg luteolin/rutin mix, swanson brand
9.5mg forskolin (extrapolated by weight, same overall mgs today as yesterday (310mg))
1 jarrow's b-right b complex
1g ALCAR, roughly
500mg agmatine
10g organic extra virgin olive oil
at least 5g of coconut oil (felt like much more, but my scale has issues noticing removals from a heavy jar)

I also took a C3G complex since C3G which I take 3x daily is supposed to be synergistic with quercetin, and rutin is related
60ml of pomegranate juice, since ellagic acid synergizes with C3G as well.

Also, I still get a feeling that, while I haven't been feeling ciltep lately (as in psychoactively, like caffeine), or seeing results that betray its effects, last night my dreaming came across to me as better than it would have been without it.

[Jeoshua]

Well I'll let you know. I found out that forskolin was fat soluble and mentioned it on the monster thread since no one had, but since I hadn't originally classified it as fat soluble I kept forgetting.

Ah yes, you were the person who first noted that in the thread, weren't you. Well then I am happy to inform you that after a bit of research and searching for corroborating evidence, it seems that not only are you right, but there are anecdotal reports (n=6 at this point) that good, healthy fats definitely potentiate the effect of CILTEP when taken at the same time. So that's freaking great. You were right, and that should become part of the standard knowledge about CILTEP in my opinion. It's just circumstancial and anecdotal, but I haven't yet found anything to suggest the opposite, and the number of people who have been taking it with fat to excellent effect keeps growing.

In fact, this may explain why many of the people who have been attempting to mix CILTEP and Uridine/DHA have been reporting that the effects are too much for them and take them down a path of great overstimulation. They may have been taking far too much CILTEP on an empty stomach to get the effects they were looking for, then adding the DHA from Happystack allows all that to be absorbed much more efficiently, leading to that overstimulation. This is just a theory, but if anyone is reading this and has failed at combining CILTEP and Happystack, please speak up and tell us if you were taking the CILTEP on an empty stomach before adding the DHA.

Also, FWIW, I have always been taking 600mg DHA (and 200mg EPA) along with my stacks. That, and my standard breakfast includes 2 eggs, over easy, fried up with EVOO

Edited by Jeoshua, 11 March 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Yeah, it makes a world of sense. I would never take something fat soluble without a fat source. I have two whole rows of vitamins I don't take without fat:
bacopa,lycopene,turmeric,vinpocetine,e,resveratrol,lutein,benfotiamine,coq10,phosphatidylserine,rosemary,c3g

I'm not even sure about that last one. With some of those (like turmeric) you are for sure wasting time/money not co-administering with fat. I wasn't sure anyone else was even going to notice my terse post :-p

And perhaps after things get threshed out a bit more and it turns out to be essential, updating the first post of the monster thread would be a good thing to have happen.

Edited by Charles J. Daniels, 11 March 2014 - 06:18 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Well I certainly did notice, and led me to looking into it. All the posts on the monster thread which say that there was no effect share one quality: They never mention if they've taken it with food, or mention directly that they were taking it on an empty stomach in the morning to avoid any kind of interference with other supplements. Now, a good question is: Does coadministration of fats interfere with water soluable supplements?

As far as logic would indicate to me, if one took their fat soluable supplements with fat, and at the same time drank a glass of water with their water soluable supplements, the oil and water would not mix and their respective supplements would find their way into their respective solvents, and everything would absorb normally. On the other hand, not taking fat and downing fat soluable supplements would cause them to be very poorly absorbed (only when directly contacting the cell walls of the intestine), whereas not taking water with water soluable supplements would always lead them to be absorbed anyways, since our bodies are something like 90% aqueous solutions. I could be wrong, however.

Edited by Jeoshua, 11 March 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Yes, I tend to believe it's fine to take water soluble stuff with fat soluble stuff, per your general ideas stated. I don't avoid it ever, but perhaps there's a case for it.

The following page says luteolin is marginally water soluble, and is soluble in alkali: http://www.appliedhe...7072&Itemid=202

So it seems we could be helping out the luteolin as well.

And of all the people that may have glanced my post in the monster thread on fat, it does ~not~ suprise me that you Jeoshua would have taken note

[Jeoshua]

Another thing to think about: Humans have more than one circulatory system. Being mammals, we have both a Cardiovascular system and a Lymphatic system (along with possibly others, but not much is known about them and they're not important for this line of reasoning). Now, only one of these systems has a pump to move the fluids around. The Lymphatic system doesn't have any kind of forced circulation, but nonetheless is responsible for the transmission of a lot of fat soluable compounds throughout the body. So in a way, the blood can be seen as the water soluable compound distribution system, and the lymphatic system can be seen as the fat soluable compound distribution system.

The lack of any kind of pump like a "lymph heart" which dinosaurs and spiders have would point towards the need for fat soluable compounds to be forced into distribution through other means, like forced motion through Yoga or other Exercise. I make a point of doing some squats and pushups every morning whether I feel like it, or not, just to get the lymph flowing, and generally this is after my supplements... so that may be something too. Worst case scenario, it doesn't do anything but give you some better muscles. Best case, it helps the circulation of the fat soluable compounds.

[Charles J. Daniels]

makes sense for sure. I already run daily and do weights 3x a week, but some jumping jacks after ciltep sounds good to me. I have a hydrocele that gets better with running and weight training, so I see all too well just how effect motion is at cycling stagnant fluids

I know rutin isn't the ingredient we were looking for in that luteolin/rutin mix, but this paper says rutin hits max concentration in several hours, with a long ass half life (refer to the table a few pages in: http://li123-4.membe... Flavonoids.pdf ) . I'd still like to know the amount of luteolin in this mix. Perhaps I'll look for a different luteolin formulation. LEF (life extension foudnation) is all about having its members take luteolin, but as a vegan I will not buy any of their formulations that support animal research.

Edited by Charles J. Daniels, 11 March 2014 - 07:00 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So, I recall that with water soluble things, at times it is best to avoid taking with fat because fat causing gastric emptying to take longer, and this decreases the punch to the bloodstream sometime sought. In many cases this isn't necessary, but under certain circumstances, a fast pass through is desired.

And reporting in on today, having taken ciltep with fat, if I had to say, subjectively, yes, it is ever so marginally improved. When I "notice" my ciltep, it affects my vision, in that my visual field is more mobile, a trait I like. I almost don't even notice it at all, but at this moment I can also see it prettily easily when I look for it. However, my effects today are not at the level I achieved with higher artichoke doses. I'll have to try the artichoke again, which I may not ultimately go with due to tiredness affects I'd rather not have. Also, I must remind myself, the primary point of ciltep is long term memory, not to feel it. So I cannot abandon it until a long enough time has gone by. I study languages every day which really engages long term memory, so if there are benefits to get here, I would be a good candidate. Also, I must remind myself that while many people saw immediate benefits like better concentration/motivation/application, those also are outside of the original goal of long term memory, and that additionally I do not usually have any issues in those areas, so shouldn't expect to see marked improvements there.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So yesterday, again, my results, while highlighted, were extremely minimal, easily missed or denied. Today, I'm switching back to the artichoke, with fat, and the same higher forskolin I used the last two days. I've never used this much with forskolin with artichoke. I will be monitoring for sleepiness. I got 9.5 hours of sleep last night, so I also now have one of my first true/good/honest baselines for whether the artichoke combo was the cause of my slight and tolerable sleepiness before, or if it was my whack sleeping schedule and keeping up with the olympics.

I just took:

13g organic extra virgin olive oil, cold pressed
4 artichoke extract caps, solaray brand, 1200mg total, 60mg caffeioylquinnic acids and derivatives
9.5mg forskolin
1 jarrow brand b-right b complex
1g ALCAR, roughly
540mg agmatine


I was going to take a tyrosine, but haven't before so wanted a closer comparison with the inclusion of fat and upped forskolin with the artichoke.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Alright, so yesterday, with the higher forskolin, back on artichoke, and taken with fat -- no real effects for me. For today I'm not planning on taking ciltep.

I still have a couple other options. I could up my doses from yesterday, since I haven't hit a negative response yet. Maybe 6 artichoke pills and 12mg forskolin! I don't think I'll die. Also, I can give quercetin a try. Abelard was saying it lasts way too long, but I don't think that would be an issue for me

[Charles J. Daniels]

I'm taking ciltep today, with upped dosages. Here's what I'm taking:

1 tablespoon olive oil
200mg luteolin/rutin mix, swanson brand
12mg forskolin
1g ALCAR, roughly
500mg l-phenylalanine
1 jarrow's b-right b complex

I just took this a moment ago, and not that long ago before that I took 240mcg of methylene blue.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So today again, my experience was completely over-lookable. Do I qualify as a non-responder so far?

I did get more benefit before, so I'm going to try the last thing that seemed to work for me, but an ingredient in that may have been lack of sleep! It was definitely artichoke and not luteolin, so that may also cause some drowsiness. I guess I'll do that tomorrow.

Many people swear by ciltep so I assume that if there are indeed benefits to be gained for me, in all likeliness it will be from regular use that quietly exposes itself down the road as enhanced long term memory. But many people seem to point out immediate pluses like motivation, etc. that I do not generally note.

I also notice I still haven't maxed out my dosages to the point that I feel detracted from. Out of curiosity I may still bump them up just so I don't leave a corner without having peaked around.

[AmpleBeingdotcom]

Charles,

 

You definitely need to focus on getting adequate sleep. When we were running experiments and fine tuning our own Artichoke + Forskolin supplement we ran into this problem as well (it is easy to overlook).

 

On that note, your'e dosages of Forskolin IMO are far to high. I see you have worked your way up, but you start to get diminishing return after you exceed 7-8mg of Forskolin.

 

I may have overlooked the answer to this in a previous reply, but have you tried consuming on an empty stomach first thing in the morning or combining with high doses of caffeine?

[Charles J. Daniels]

my forskolin doses never got higher than 9.5mg, and I worked up to that because I wasn't getting the effect I wanted.

 

I have taken this on an empty stomach. I'll keep it in mind to throw that strategy into the mix again just to ensure, but currently I try to take it on an empty stomach upon waking, except for with a swig of olive oil for absorption. So, not entirely empty.

 

I've taken caffeine after about an hour after dosing, but not noticed anything stellar. What do you consider a high dose of caffeine?

 

I definitely agree that taking this when sleep deprived adds other issues, but then again, some of my best results seem to have actually been ~then~.

 

Lately, when I take ciltep at all, I've been taking just forskolin and a luteolin/rutin complex from swanson, without worry about supporting supps since I get a lot of that kind of stuff anyway, and always take ALCAR. This combo never causes me tiredness (due to luteolin over artichoke I'd say), and while not strong, gives me vague feelings that it is working. I've decided just to take ciltep for the cumulative effects, and not for the feel, and see where it takes me.

[AmpleBeingdotcom]

Charles,

 

Try taking caffeine with your dosage and see what results come from that.

 

Have you tried NALT with the stack?

[Charles J. Daniels]

I'll keep co-dosing in mind as a caffeine strategy. I've been purposely limiting my caffeine due to ventures into polyphasic sleeping.

 

I take l-tyrosine, but never have taken NALT. I assume that the purpose of these tyrosines (dopamine maintenance) doesn't require co-administration -- do you find a difference between dosing at the same time, vs. tyrosine later in the day?

[AmpleBeingdotcom]

I have experimented with both and have found that dosing at the same time seemed to be more effective for myself and several others.

 

Also, try different caffeine sources. I have had good success with high caffeine teas like green tea over a typical cup of coffee.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Were you answering my question on co-administration of tyrosine?? It sounds like you're talking about caffeine again, but maybe that was a separate point afterwards.

[AmpleBeingdotcom]

Sorry, to clarify the first part was in response to the tyrosine. 

 

Was a little confusing after re-reading it