49 replies to this topic

[Charles J. Daniels]

This thread is about my use of ciltep, which is threshed out on this monster thread: http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/

For the past 5 days I have taken:

900mg of artichoke extract totaling 45mg of caffeoylquinic acid and derivatives
more or less 4mg of forskohlin
a nice b-complex (jarrow's b-right)
500mg l-phenylalanine (which I suspect is unnecessary for me in most cases)
750mg ALCAR, plus another 1 to 2 grams throughout the day (which I always took anyway)

By and large, I've seen very slight results. At first I was getting an effect in my vision, much like you might get from starting a lutein regimen: sharp images, distinct/deep colors, etc.

On the second day I took it, I got a totally flushed feeling in my face -- I could like feel my pulse in my nose, and had a warmth like I was breaking a fever. Interesting, and not a negative thing, to me.

But that's about all for effect so far. I am starting this thread because I'm going to attempt to tweak what I'm taking to see if it has anything to offer me and thought others might have advice. To that end there are two things I think you should know.

1) I have no issues with learning. I learn all the time every day, I study multiple foreign languages, my IQ is high, I spend hours straight pouring through material without any lapses in focus or concentration, and I'm 99 percentile in everything on lumosity, by and large -- so I'm not expecting the cloud to burst open and shine down rays of light from above. The fact that what I'm taking has been in no way adverse, and ever so very very subtly positive indicates to me some potential.

2) I generally take a ~lot~ of other supplements, and I'm not aware of things that directly work against ciltep that I might be taking. Here are the things I take often, most daily, in no particular order:

bacopa
vitE complex
lycopene
CoQ10
vinpocetine
phosphotidylserine
cayenne
creatine
noopept
benfotiamine
turmeric
resveratrol (that includes grape skin and grape seed extract, as well as pine bark extract)
probiotic
ALCAR
TMG
citrulline malate
beta-alanine
cal/mag/zinc
extra zinc
green tea extract
inositol
DMAE

I often take:
garlic
melatonin
theanine (more recently)
NAC
ViraMax (half dose) that contains: catuaba, yohimbe, muira pauma, maca

lately I've been taking these mainly daily:
cissus quadrangularis
stinging nettle
6mg boron


Many of these things seem entirely fine with ciltep to me, and in most respects I did not bother to stop taking things. But I did almost completely stop the noopept and the viramax, nor have I taken melatonin or theanine. My vinpocetine has also been pretty light. But the rest I maintained, including my two doses of bacopa each day.

So my first strategy is simple: I'm just going to up my doses and see how it affects me until I either hit a sweet spot I'd like to maintain, or I see it beginning to turn sour on me and I know I've gone too far. Starting tomorrow I'm going to up my two main ciltep ingredients by 1/3, take 1200 of the extract, and around 5.33g of forskohlin.

Beyond simply increasing dosage I am considering:

a) Upping each of the two parts individually in case I have a different ratio need
b) taking multiple doses in a day rather than just a once a day dose
c) trying quercetin
d) adding agmatine to my stack
e) adding magnesium l-threonate to my stack


And that's about it for my current future tweaking ideas. Feel free to chime in if you have any suggestions.

--charlie

Edited by Charles J. Daniels, 16 February 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Ok, so today went much better. I had a noticeable effect sit with me through many hours. I'm 7 hours in and I still feel a difference at the moment. The most obvious change was, as usual, in my visual field. I watched Olympics most of the day after dosing, so I'm not sure how it would affect my foreign language flashcard studying, but the effect was better at this dosage, so for the next however long I'm going to sustain this same dose, see if the effects stick around, and then try to up it all again, to see if there is even better improvement or if I hit a wall. Quite possibly it is only one of the two main ingredients that I need boosted, so I may look into that later.

I took 1200mg of artichoke extract, totaling 60mg of caffeoylquinic acid and derivatives, along with about 5.33mg of forskohlin. I purposely skipped the following supps:

no bacopa
no resveratrol
no vinpocetine
about 3 hours in I did take 23mg of noopept

[Charles J. Daniels]

So, after that first day of nice results, I have had almost no results the next 3 days. On some of these days I refrained form some supps, on other days I took most of them. I avoided vinpocetine the whole time. I don't think I'm taking anything that would massively interfere.

And mind you, I'm very used to my body going through a phase where I feel different, just to eventually return to homeostasis and losing that "nice new sheen" I may get at first. But so many of the posts on the main ciltep thread describe a lack of acclimation to the effects, that I'm still curious to see if that exists for me. I did have a few moments where something felt uniquely processed, recalled when it wouldn't, and more 3D than it ever has been. The visual sharpness that was most prevalent has settled down to mainly nothingness as well.

I do not know if I should up my dose on one or both of the main ingredients, but that is my first idea on where to start. I'm thinking I may increase both until I see issues, and then bump one of the two down. Someone out there likely knows which of the two ingredients is most potent -- and I'm pretty sure that info can be gleaned from the thread, so I'll look into that too. I have agmatine on the way, so I'll add between 500mg and 1g to what I take in divided doses, and cycled that.

So, tomorrow I'm going to do a 1/3 more of the original dose, to be taking 166% of where I originally started at the standard dosages. That means 75mg of of caffeoylquinic acid and derivatives, along with about 6.66mg of forskohlin.

--charlie

[Zenfood]

Interesting! Keep on posting. This will help me save time

[Charles J. Daniels]

So, I just took my ciltep supps. I decided to only increase the forskolin and not the artichoke, since after increase I'm barely half the original dose that came in each pill I emptied out, but I'm already double the artichoke extract dose before increase. Also, I just looked it up and see that forskolin is fat soluble, so I took it with a teaspoon of olive oil.

And, for what it's worth I had some really vivid dreams last night and crossed partially into lucidity.

[Charles J. Daniels]

My results today seemed decent. Under the radar enough to feel like not much occurred, but significant enough I couldn't miss it. I see on the thread that people have taken much more forskolin than I'm currently taking (6.66mg today), as high as 50mg split over the day, but I also see they needed to scale back.

One thing worth noting is that I have yet to have a negative result. I'm kinda tired lately (one of the effects of ciltep not regulated properly), but seriously, circumstances are at play (like the olympics I watch every minute of and the sleep I'm not getting).

And Hi Jean, btw =)
--charlie

[Charles J. Daniels]

For the record, the past couple days I've gotten up very late (like 5pm) so haven't taken ciltep. I did however, feel like maybe there were positive effects spilling over into those days. However, I've also made a huge diet change recently that shouldn't could account for that, so. Nothing definitive.

[Neal Cullum]

5pm! Do you work nights or something? That's a long lay in bed!

[Charles J. Daniels]

I don't like living by schedules and I was busy. So sometimes it throws my patterns (which already vary) into a tailspin, which is fine by me.

So yesterday I took my stack again since a couple days off. I took agmatine with it for the first time too, 500mg. I forgot to take it with a fat source. I was a bit tired, which I keep thinking seems to be from the ciltep, but again, I'm not fully sure that's it because I'm not quite yet back to a sleep schedule I cannot blame. I took one dose of noopept with my stack, which I seem to feel goes well, and I had a cup of coffee, and then went to bed, lol, way early. I went to be at like 6pm, and just got up at 2am, so.

But, I had amazing lucid dreams last night. I'm thinking this ciltep is helping with my lucid dreaming. Or whatever it is. The lucid dreams weren't the longest I've had, by far, lasting only a minute or so each, but I had one after the other after the other, and the scenes in many ways were very stable or vivid.

I don't know what I'm going to do about this sleep pattern (the damn world that causes a need for adjustment mind you). Maybe I'll just get up for my day and take a decent nap in the middle.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So for various reasons I've decided to stop the bacopa, which I've been taking for like 4 months or so. I've also been avoiding other thing, like my vinpocetine and turmeric for the moment, all to leave more room for the effects of ciltep to be more obvious.

I started limited my artichoke to only 3 pills again today, 900mg total. I noted less tiredness today, but that could be for a few reasons, including my first good night of full normal sleep. However, there still was a moment when my eyes felt heavy earlier in the day than they should. And you know, today I didn't notice effects as much as I have on other days, so maybe that one artichoke pill makes a decent different -- that or the other things I'm skipping actually help. Also, I didn't take any noopept today, which I have a few times before whil on ciltep. But I did notice some really clear vision later when outside, which is often related to ciltep for me.

I am definitely interested in trying out luteolin for a replacement to artichoke, and quercetin as a replacement for forskolin. Perhaps I'll have better and/or more consistent results with those.

My sleep schedule is again a bit off, but the next time I take ciltep stack, I'm going to stick to 900mg of the artichoke extract, and try to fit in a couple noopept doses. The next few times after that, I'm gonna keep the artichoke where it's at and just scale the forskolin up and down, and see what I see.

--charlie

[Mr. Pink]

these modifications made the biggest difference for me: add about 150-200mg caffeine, up you alcar, reduce your artichoke and up your forskolin. how much is experimentation, but although most of the side effects int he thread are blamed on forkolin, i feel like it's the artichoke. also, alcar made a world of difference. all on an empty stomach.

also, caffeine is mentioned very early on in the thread. i wouldn't consider it ciltep without it.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Thanks for the feedback. I've heard conflicting things about caffeine on the main thread, but I guess when I'm forced to summarize, people theorize that it conflicts often enough, but people tend to say it goes well together when they do take it, so I'll give it a go.

[Jeoshua]

I am definitely interested in trying out luteolin for a replacement to artichoke, and quercetin as a replacement for forskolin. Perhaps I'll have better and/or more consistent results with those.

I personally take a supplement that is 50/50 Luteolin and Rutin (a glycoside of quercetin). It works good as a replacement for Artichoke, at around 100mg effective dose as opposed to nearly a gram of artichoke.

What I would like to ask is why you are considering Quercetin as a replacement for Forskolin? As far as I know, Quercetin does not have any direct cAMP increasing qualities, beyond the PDE inhibition that Luteolin is already offering.

And as far as Caffeine, do make sure to take any caffeine at least an hour separate from Forskolin. They WILL compete for Adenosine receptors, and will work in opposite ways. Once the Forskolin does its magic, however, the Caffeine adds greatly to the longevity of the effect.

Edited by Jeoshua, 28 February 2014 - 03:43 AM.

[Mr. Pink]

I am definitely interested in trying out luteolin for a replacement to artichoke, and quercetin as a replacement for forskolin. Perhaps I'll have better and/or more consistent results with those.

I personally take a supplement that is 50/50 Luteolin and Rutin (a glycoside of quercetin). It works good as a replacement for Artichoke, at around 100mg effective dose as opposed to nearly a gram of artichoke.

What I would like to ask is why you are considering Quercetin as a replacement for Forskolin? As far as I know, Quercetin does not have any direct cAMP increasing qualities, beyond the PDE inhibition that Luteolin is already offering.

And as far as Caffeine, do make sure to take any caffeine at least an hour separate from Forskolin. They WILL compete for Adenosine receptors, and will work in opposite ways. Once the Forskolin does its magic, however, the Caffeine adds greatly to the longevity of the effect.

I though quercetin is a replacement for artichoke (pde 4 inhibitor), not forskolin (cAMP booster). i take 100mg of quercetin instead of a gram of artichoke now. it's available in powder and much cheaper/longer lasting

[Charles J. Daniels]

Oh yes, you are right. I had mentally categorized quercetin as so distinct from luteolin that I ended up casually considering them replacements for different parts of the stacks. Right, right, both are for the PDE4 inhibition.

Hey Jeoshua, is that the swanson brand of that mix you take?

And I'll definitely wait on the caffeine for an hour.

[Charles J. Daniels]

I just took my ciltep:

900mg artichoke extract (45mg caffeoylquinnic acids and derivatives)
8mg of forskolin
500mg agmatine
a jarrow's b-right vitamin
around 1 gram of alcar, eyeballed

In a little over an hour I'm going to take 200mg of caffeine, in a capsule.
I specifically skipped the phenylalanine. I regularly get 80+ grams of protein.

[Jeoshua]

Oh yes, you are right. I had mentally categorized quercetin as so distinct from luteolin that I ended up casually considering them replacements for different parts of the stacks. Right, right, both are for the PDE4 inhibition.

Other replacements for Forskolin have been considered, tested, and ultimately dropped. Cordyceps is one, but given that it increases both cAMP and cGMP, mimics adenosine to a "t", and may therefore inhibit protein synthesis (as the longest term potentiation requires), it was ultimately found to not be ideal due to "NOS effects"... however it was an n=1 anecdotal study backed up by mostly in-vitro studies, so it might still have some validity or uses. And along with cAMP, nNOS is thought to be one of the catalysts for LTP, after all.

The main difference between Luteolin and Quercetin is the specificity of their PDE inhibition. Luteolin is fairly specific to PDE4, but does inhibit a wide range of PDE targets. Quercetin just scatterguns the PDE system and doesn't pick favorites.

Hey Jeoshua, is that the swanson brand of that mix you take?

It's this one:
http://www.swansonvi...-mg-30-veg-caps

Good for replacement of Artichoke in CILTEP, or to clear up congestion

Actually, after looking at the product again they seem to have changed the label. Originally it implied Luteolin + Rutin. Now it implies that it's actually an extract of two herbals. But it still seems to do the trick, even if at this point I'm no longer sure of the specific purity. It still at least seems to be a lot more potent, by weight, than Artichoke.

I think the reason for there not being a Luteolin only supplement out there is pretty well described in the Swanson Ultra description there, albeit in an oblique way. It's just not very bioavailable in the normal form that it is extremely easy and cheap to find it in (Peanut shells are rich in the stuff), and therefore there is not much demand for it. Whereas, the Glycosides of Luteolin are very hard to find in nature (found in many plants and a few very common veggies in extremely tiny amounts) and extremely variable in effect depending upon which Glycoside, which way it was attached to the Luteolin, what sugars are in play, etc.

Personally, I think it's the sugar molecules that make the Glycosides more bioavailable. "Just a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down", as they say.

Edited by Jeoshua, 28 February 2014 - 04:03 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

How is NOS related? I often taken things that affect nitric oxide in my system, like citrulline malate. Were the "bad effects" to NOS, to hinder or express it?

[Jeoshua]

How is NOS related? I often taken things that affect nitric oxide in my system, like citrulline malate. Were the "bad effects" to NOS, to hinder or express it?

NOS is thought to be one of the mechanisms that leads to late-phase LTP. Quick google searches pull up lots of opinions on the subject, tho.

I'm not sure, I think the effects reported were "Brain fog" and "Boners". So I think increase. I would take that with a grain of salt tho, since Agmatine does the opposite to NOS levels and didn't kill my sex drive at all.

[Charles J. Daniels]

how much forskolin to you currently take Jeoshua?

and I'm definitely doing to try that luteolin/rutin mix

[Jeoshua]

I take around 8-16 mg a day (8mg extract, sometimes a second booster dose late-afternoon)

[Charles J. Daniels]

Ok, so I did take that caffeine, about 1hr 10min later (around 8:40a). I'm about to eat 30g protein and take 23mg of noopept.

I've noticed an effect today that's new. I'm kinda hungry to do tasks, and doing things I had put off it seems. And with this, I'm sort of impatient, like i can't wait to shove the info in. The impatience is fairly mild and non-obtrusive, mostly, but the motivation is note noticeable, and a positive so far.

[Zenfood]

So you just took protein and noopept? I have done this several times and haven't noticed anything "amazing".

[Charles J. Daniels]

I'd have to say for the most part with ciltep I haven't noticed anything amazing. And it's funny you mention it, because today I swear I feel like I didn't take noopept at all, which is fairly odd. Even on previous ciltep days noopept seemed to make an obvious presence. I'm wondering if something about today made it seem not there, like the earlier caffeine. I'll take another noopept dose later today too.

Outside of ciltep, I usually notice my noopept, more or less. And I have seen protein highlight its effectiveness. I haven't been taking noopept regularly lately, maybe once a day on those days I even bother, and I always hear that it's most effective with regular use. I'm gonna get back to that.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So today I skipped ciltep, and took an "anipept" stack (30mg noopept, 750mg aniracetam, twice), and you know, in many ways I felt so much better than I have on ciltep, personally. I mean like, my level of tiredness was just so much more negligible throughout most of the day. I'm going to do this again tomorrow, and then go back to ciltep on monday. I purchased that luteolin/rutin mix. Perhaps it'll give me better results. This upcoming week before that arrives, I'm gonna factor in tiredness to how I tweak my ciltep, and try to avoid any of that. Mind you, it's often acceptable in intensitiy, it just comes in a few waves, some of which end in a nap.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So I got that luteolin/rutin complex yesterday. I also got some methylene blue (MB), which I dosed twice yesterday, without any ciltep yesterday or the previous few days.

Today, I am taking:

100mg luteolin/rutin complex (swanson brand)
8mg forskolin (extrapolated weight of powder that had been pilled)
1g ALCAR
one Jarrow's B-Right b complex
500mg agmatine (and likely another 750 pre workout much later today)
500mcgs of methylene blue, likely in 3 doses spread about 6 hours apart

plus all my supporting supplements, but specifically without bacopa, vinpocetine, or anything thought to interfere with ciltep, and without CoQ10 (which interferes with the MB).

I realize that today's results won't be specific to luteolin/rutin, what with the MB. That's fine with me for now, I can pull out the MB later.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Alright, so it's late enough in the day to report in. I've had a good day on what I'm taking, and definitely have had next to no sleepiness. Actually, at one point my eyes were suddenly heavy (after drinking a coke zero?) and within 30 seconds of noticing this, my eyes totally brightened and I felt awake, lol.

I didn't really get any effects I attribute to ciltep, at least, none that match the slight effects I obtained earlier on in my experimenting. However, as my experience lacks tiredness, and I believe these ciltep supps are good for me in multiple ways (including improved dreaming, perhaps), I'm going to keep taking them, "noticed" or not. I mean, I don't notice 95% of my supps, I just take them.

I got an order in today with some lutein and C3G (both work on the eyes, the reason I got them) and ciltep has always had the most dramatic impact on my vision, so perhaps these will play out well together.

The methylene blue was less obvious today than yesterday, which could be aclimation but would be rather quick. I've read from at least one other person that it stacks fine with ciltep, and I've read that if it affects dopamine, it's more as an increasor of that.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So today I am going to take ciltep again, and I'm not going to take any methylene blue. I'm shooting for a larger than noraml ciltep dose, but I'm still not sure how the luteolin/rutin mix translates. I just took:

200mg luteolin/rutin mix, swanson brand (so two capsules)
9.5mg forskolin (extrapolated by weight, larger amount taken at once so far)
1g+ ALCAR, very roughly eye-balled
1 Jarrow's B-Right b complex
500mg agamatine

In about an hour I'll take some caffeine. I'm expecting to have some sleepiness today, which the MB does not do ;-)

--charlie

[Charles J. Daniels]

Alright, so I'm reporting in. The good thing is I had no tiredness today. Mind you, I took more ALCAR, and some tyrosine, before my two mile run, and another tyrosine before my weights workout, but I had such a lack of tiredness that I find it hard to believe I would have had more without these things, but I know they can have quite an impact. So in terms of tiredness, no problems (and without ciltep I don't generally have such a problem either mind you, so). As for affects, I must say they were subliminal and subjective, if there at all. I feel like perhaps they were supporting my day, making my work a bit easier, etc. etc., but not in any way that was obvious or would cause me to recommend it to someone else. Still, I can't help but feel that there is some benefit to the combo involved. LEF always recommended luteolin, and artichokes are supposed to be powerhouses (and contain luteolin), so both those supps fit happy in my supp cabinet.

It was way back when I was taking 4 artichoke pills that I felt a marked difference. I will likely try down that road again. For the short term, I'm going to stick with the luteolin. Maybe I'll up what I take again tomorrow: 300mg luteolin/rutin mix, 12mg forskolin. Sounds like a good next step. I'd rather hit what it obviously too much than not test my boundaries.

[Jeoshua]

Are you taking this with fats?

I've been giving this some thought, and there have been more than a few reports of low or now effects with different parts of the stacks. It's kind of a mystery, but one thing holds all of these reports together: Nobody mentions if they took it with food or not.

Now, Forskoliin is fat soluable, and basic fats won't interfere with the absorbtion of any of the components, to my knowledge. Couple this with some of the latest reports in the CILTEP thread of Coconut Oil increasing the effects, me noticing that my coffee drink blend makes the effects almost too much to bear when I add Coconut Creme to my Coffee, and Dave Asprey using his Upgraded MCT Oil in his coffee and swearing by CILTEP, this all points to the necessity of some fats in order to properly absorb at least some of the important components of the stack.

The easy way to test this is to just make sure you're taking the stack with some food. Fried eggs or something fatty and heavy like that would be ideal. The more expensive way to test it would be to get a good high quality Omega 3 or MCT Oil, or something like that.

For now I'm considering CILTEP as having a "Take with Food" label on it.