260 replies to this topic

[neuralis]

I would like to offer couple of insights derived from my personal experience with anxiety disorders and Vorinostat. 

 

I've come to learn that anxiety is always an result of some old emotion or thought that hasn't been properly integrated. We may experience something that at the time is so overwhelmingly intense we just can not put it into it's proper perspective. So we set it on the side to be dealt with later. This doesn't change the content of what we have to experience and the thought of facing it may be as terrifying as it was actually to experience it. So we may postpone facing what we must indefinitely. So we create this small anxiety to keep us from venturing into this dangerous territory of our own minds. In effect we have become afraid of being afraid. Over time we are feeding this small anxiety that keeps on growing until it may even outgrow the original fear. So we start avoiding our anxiety. We have become afraid of the fear or being afraid. Though it doesn't necessarily have to be fear we are avoiding. It may as well be sadness, anger or even certain kind of happiness we are trying to avoid facing. This is what is in my mind is the essence of neuroticsism. Anxiety disorder can consist of hundreds of such unfelt emotions. The only way to recover is to go through all the protective layers we have created and feel what we have denied ourselves to feel.

 

Easier said than done.

 

And this is where Vorinostat may make all the difference. At least it has done it for me. It seems to remove all this unnecessary anxiety so that the underlying emotions can be dealt with and finally made peace with. The only way to beat your fear is to become best friends with it. When there's no anxiety about feeling fear, I find it is possible to stay present to the fact that at the moment I may be scared shitless at the prospect of doing something, acknowledge my fear in its totality and reassure myself that even though I'm feeling like I am about to die from anxiety I am actually safe. From this point it is possible to act despite being afraid and if you do it enough times with favorable results soon you will learn that there is no reason to be afraid of this particular thing. You will have your own experience to back it up. You can not grow if you are not willing to look your fear into its eyes.

 

There are of course many other layers and aspects to effective recovery work, but I believe that Vorinostat combined with deep analytical therapeutic process and balanced body work is as close to panacea for non organic mental disorders as we are going to get.

[Stephen Clark]

in 4 gb

PM MEH


 

Edited by Stephen Clark, 13 November 2016 - 01:44 AM.

[musicman4534]

Below is a collection of quotes from this thread with my comments in italics which show that there seem to be two divergent views: (1) that you need successful extinction therapy for HDACi to work (I've omitted the studies referred to in this thread that show that without successful extinction training, the fear memory may actually strengthen!), and (2) that attempting to be calm while taking HDACi may actually ruin the fear extinction process. Very confusing and somewhat risky.

 

 

Celebes: "In short, taking a HDAC-inhibitor (like CL-994) creates a window where it's possible to eradicate fear conditioning. My impression is this would only really be useful in a therapeutic setting."

 

Tree: "Depends on what you call therapeutic setting. Keep in mind the mice didn't need any therapy for it to work. Just recalling memories (for instance by confronting yourself with the anxiety inducing situations) while the window is open is clearly sufficient. GAD sufferers usually have a few things which causes more anxiety than the rest so those are points of confrontation. But if anxiety has gotten to the point were it remains continuous then I'm not sure any confrontation is even required. The anxiety/stress switch is forceably and permanently set to high through epigenetic means. Enter Cl-994 which is an epigenetic resetter."

 

 

Question: Why would an epigenetic resetter selectively resest the anxiety switch? What if it resets the "calmness" or some other useful switch as well? Does the same apply to vorinostat? The mice didn't need any therapy for it to work? They did receive extinction training whereby the foot shock was unpaired with the tone so the fear memory could be extinguished! 

 

...

 

Tree: In regard to the earlier question whether aversive memory wiping is the same as removing consistent anxiety/stress states, I recommend this popular science article. It explains the basics of epigenetic storage very well. Negative memories that are stored in the brain AND persistent anxiety are both the results from epigenetic switches being set. The process can be simplified by saying that methylation can be considered an off switch, and acetyl an on switch. While stress/fear causes genes to shut off due to methylation (including genes necessary to normalize stress responces) a compound like Cl-994 is very indiscriminate and hyper-acetylates proteins and genes. This causes them to become active again and effectively resets your entire epi-genome (to one degree or another, depending on dosage and accessibility in the body).

 

Same question: if it's so indiscriminate, will it hyper-acelate other genes, resulting in detrimental effects? Does the above information also apply to vorinostat?

 

...

 

Celebes: "TrkB and NMDA agonism are both fear extinctive in themselves (along with CB1, Mu, GABAB, 5-HT1A and H2). HDAC inhibition's upregulation of both (in the absence of therapy) is the most likely explanation for its effects. A big part of the phenotype of trauma or anxiety is just the direct consequence of diminished BDNF and NMDA activity (along with CB1, Mu, GABAB, 5-HT1A and H2). You would expect anything that corrected any of that to take a big chunk out of fear conditioning, which demonstrably it does. I think the 'window' was a misconception, an artifact of the design. What we're really doing here is disinhibiting the biological basis of 'resilience', As with anything involving changing the brain, that takes time.

And another thing: How many situations is exposure therapy actually useful in? Sure it works for phobias but those are pretty much defined by being irrational. How does it work with rational fear? Combat veterans: attack people who can't fight back? Assault victims: be the one doing the beating? Child abuse: become dependent on people who are nice to you? Bullying? Infidelity? Failure? Loss? Now all of those things are actually practiced by the people in those groups. But in an hour or two? What's more, the fear extinction studies exposed the rats to a single stressful event. How many people here have had exactly one stressful experience?"

 

If the first paragraph is correct, that is very encouraging. The second paragraph is what I was thinking: how do we replicate extinction learning in humans?

 

...

 

StevesPetRat: "Very interesting experiences, tree. I wonder if an HDACi could help with more general emotional / behavioral plasticity."

 

This is what I'm wondering also.

 

...

 

StevesPetRat: "But it sounds like one has to face the fear and then become unafraid during the treatment which if I could do I wouldn't really need the help..."

 

Exactly.

 

 

As I've investigated the use of HDAC inhibitors for fear extinction, I've also looked into how certain memories are formed, including fear, anxiety, negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, reward, love, attachment, etcetera. The way different memories are made in the brain and what controls them is very important. HDAC doesn't control all memory, and if the ones it does oversee it doesn't control them all equally. There are many other transcription factor targets, as well as many other epigenetic regulator targets that affect various kind of memory other than HDAC. For example, DNMT3a affects addiction and, to some extent, certain types of reward, as seen in this study:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2928863/

 

This is how I understand it from all I've read... Fear and anxiety has totally different mechanisms and pathways in the brain from regular memories, reward, love, and anything else. They build over time, even if the trigger is no longer directly linked to danger. This makes sense evolutionarily if you think about it. You want to make sure that whatever brought into danger brings up awful feelings so you don't even think about doing it again. The degree to which it brings up fear and the degree to which you can actively combat it probably depends on the person, hence some people are prone to anxiety, PTSD, etc. and some people are less prone. This is key to understanding how HDAC inhibitors work... the fears associated with certain memories and situations are often overblown by our brain compared to how we should actually be reacting to the memory/situation. This is a protective trait built up throughout evolution. If you did something and a lion came up out of nowhere, you're brain is making sure you never want to do that again, even if you never even see another lion in your life... walking to that part of the desert is always going to bring up that fear, and may even build over time, even if you never see another lion. This happens in different parts of the brain, too, with certain pathways dedicated specifically to fear, and there have been studies showing that HDAC is unregulated or downregulated in specific parts of the brain depending on whether there's been a fear-inducing situation that has taken place. I'll try to find that study.

 

To answer the first question, HDAC selectively resets the anxiety and fear switch because, 1, HDAC happens to have a built-in propensity toward acting on transcription factors and parts of the brain having to do with negative reinforcement, fear, anxiety, avoidance, etc... it just doesn't act towards other emotions, because these are handled by different pathways in the brain and perhaps might not even be regulated by epigenetics as much, as they evolved into lifeforms after fear (love, happiness, connection, empathy, etc.) 2, an HDAC inhibitor works so well at eradicating fear because fear is the most likely emotion to be naturally attributed to a situation and unnaturally built-up. An HDACi, even at a small dosage, increases the priority of the present, so no matter what you've felt about the present situation (brought up through meditation or an actual experience) in the past, what the situation is doing in the present moment will be given full priority, which is usually felt as "nothing". In real time, how an HDACi feels is like nothing. No extreme, built-up emotions from the past come up. You can remember them if you try, you can remember everything that happened, but unless you're about to be hit by a bus, there will be no tightness in your chest, no anxiety, etc. Even if you were hit by a bus on an HDACi, as long as you were on it still after being hit, or took it again a couple days later, the fear that was learned from being hit by the bus on the HDACi can also be eradicated, so there should be no fear in using an HDAC. It's getting at the root of memory formation, at the transcription level, so it's impossible to have a "bad trip" or anything like that. It doesn't effect cognition, because it doesn't directly effect neurotransmission or anything upstream of CREB, which is anything above what BDNF is actually doing to DNA. It's really incredible, and nothing else we've used acts like this, so it's hard to wrap your mind around at first. You just have to try it.

 

To answer your second question, yes, HDACi hyper-acetylate other genes as well, but they're not nearly as sensitive as the brain. If you take high amounts of HDACi for a long period of time, you will arrest the cell cycle even. This is how HDACi are used to kill cancer. Most healthy cells can handle this, however. At the dosages we'd be taking them at the cell cycle won't be arrested... not even close. We just need enough increase in transcription to prioritize the present when it comes to transcribing memories. This is how children are able to learn and adapt so quickly... one of the reasons HDACi are described as "turning back the clock" on memory, or "feeling like a kid again."

 

To address your third question... The first paragraph is actually wrong. HDAC indirectly affects many things, neurotransmitters and receptors included, but this is nowhere near how it works. This is part of why it's so hard to wrap your head around at first... trkb, nmdar, ca channels, whatever you wanna talk about neurotransmission-wise in a cell above CREB, this isn't how HDACi works. It works at the transcription level by holding open transcription. This is what heightens "resilience," as you say. This is also how exposure therapy is actually brought to work by using HDAC inhibitors. Without HDAC inhibitors, it can be extremely hard for exposure therapy to work for a lot of things, especially PTSD. Even if it does work, the chance of relapse is incredibly high. This is because our fear centers in our brain and fear memories were built to keep fears alive for our protection. They're incredibly hard to overcome, and the only way to do so is to hold open the window of transcription when a memory is reactivated long enough for the present to become stronger than the past. The past will still be remembered, technically, but when you bring the memory up after your HDAC session, the most recent, non-fear-inducing memory will be what you feel.

 

In my experience, since HDACi helps form long-term memories in general, it has helped me learn how to act socially very much so. Once it gets rid of the fears of the past that used to get in your way, you're free to act in the present however you please, and almost everything is remember in incredible detail because you're on the HDAC. It's really amazing, and I can't wait to get more vorinostat.

 

Last question of yours... I don't think StevesPetRat read enough of the anecdotes or my posts because HDAC inhibitors do not bring up the past. It's not therapy through normal cognitive pathways, it's therapy through physical changes in transcription, and to the watcher, you, consciousness, it looks like the fear disappeared and you're left with nothing. Not a bad feeling of nothingness felt with the shitty medications doctors use to blunt people's emotions, but an unencumbered state of being from no longer being controlled by your past negative emotions and having the room to feel other emotions in a situation  once again, as if you were a child.

[tolerant]

Hey musicman, 

 

I posted in your PRL thread on reddit under the name "namesure" (an acronym of username, couldn't think of anything better at the time). I am amazed at how you are take your time to answer every question in such great detail. Thank you very much for that! What neuralis said in the post previous to yours sounds like a combination of the theories proposed by Dr John Sarno, and Ashok Gupta. Although initially formulated as theories of chronic back pain and chronic fatigue syndrome, they have been later extended to included anxiety. According to Dr Sarno, when neuralis says "So we create this small anxiety to keep us from venturing into this dangerous territory of our own minds", the words "small anxiety" can be substituted by "pain" or any number of other functional illnesses, like depression, IBS, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, etc.

 

I will be waiting with interest should you guys wish to reveal your own stories with anxiety and vorinostat, including dosing, etc. My main concern was whether vorinostat can be applied, without therapy, to generalised anxiety, which has snowballed beyond recognition from an initial stressful situation and has become debilitating. And I think the answer that seems to glean through a number of posts in this thread is a resounding "yes". Or, put another way, the exposure therapy in this case begins by itself every day upon waking up, because the state of anxiety is almost continuous. 

 

 

Edited by tolerant, 13 November 2016 - 10:05 PM.

[StabMe]

So, ok, Vorinostat is capable of a lot of things. Can it be used to get rid of:

- fears of difficult conversations?

- fear of approaching women in clubs/bars?

- getting rid of anxiety/fear associated with talking to authorities inside the organization? (e.g. reporting to boss)

 

Trying to find practical applications  

[musicman4534]

So, ok, Vorinostat is capable of a lot of things. Can it be used to get rid of:

- fears of difficult conversations?

- fear of approaching women in clubs/bars?

- getting rid of anxiety/fear associated with talking to authorities inside the organization? (e.g. reporting to boss)

 

Trying to find practical applications

 

Yes, these are the types of things vorinostat can be used for. I have read of HDAc inhibitors getting rid of shyness. It doesn't change your personality, but it gets rid of the fears and anxieties that have built over a long time associated with certain events/situations.

[oolongmonkey]

Are the healing qualities a permanent result of administering the dosage or does on need to keep taking the dosage on a regular basis?

[musicman4534]

Pop over to the HDAC Discussion thread or Vorinostat Group Buy thread for more info, but to answer simply the effects from vorinostat become permanent either through repeated sessions of low dosages of 15mg to 50mg, or through one session of a regular dosage, which would be from 50mg to 150mg. This is because it acts through increasing transcription directly, independent of neurotransmitters, receptors, transporters, or any other pathways upstream of CREB in the cell. Never dose daily or in amounts above 150mg or you may arrest the cell cycle and increase the possibility of side-effects. 

[tolerant]

 

I would like to offer couple of insights derived from my personal experience with anxiety disorders and Vorinostat. 

 

I've come to learn that anxiety is always an result of some old emotion or thought that hasn't been properly integrated. We may experience something that at the time is so overwhelmingly intense we just can not put it into it's proper perspective. So we set it on the side to be dealt with later. This doesn't change the content of what we have to experience and the thought of facing it may be as terrifying as it was actually to experience it. So we may postpone facing what we must indefinitely. So we create this small anxiety to keep us from venturing into this dangerous territory of our own minds. In effect we have become afraid of being afraid. Over time we are feeding this small anxiety that keeps on growing until it may even outgrow the original fear. So we start avoiding our anxiety. We have become afraid of the fear or being afraid. Though it doesn't necessarily have to be fear we are avoiding. It may as well be sadness, anger or even certain kind of happiness we are trying to avoid facing. This is what is in my mind is the essence of neuroticsism. Anxiety disorder can consist of hundreds of such unfelt emotions. The only way to recover is to go through all the protective layers we have created and feel what we have denied ourselves to feel.

 

Easier said than done.

 

And this is where Vorinostat may make all the difference. At least it has done it for me. It seems to remove all this unnecessary anxiety so that the underlying emotions can be dealt with and finally made peace with. The only way to beat your fear is to become best friends with it. When there's no anxiety about feeling fear, I find it is possible to stay present to the fact that at the moment I may be scared shitless at the prospect of doing something, acknowledge my fear in its totality and reassure myself that even though I'm feeling like I am about to die from anxiety I am actually safe. From this point it is possible to act despite being afraid and if you do it enough times with favorable results soon you will learn that there is no reason to be afraid of this particular thing. You will have your own experience to back it up. You can not grow if you are not willing to look your fear into its eyes.

 

There are of course many other layers and aspects to effective recovery work, but I believe that Vorinostat combined with deep analytical therapeutic process and balanced body work is as close to panacea for non organic mental disorders as we are going to get.

 

 

Hi neuralis,

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. May I ask a few questions as follows:

 

 

1. Since you talk about "hundreds" of emotions, is it fair to assume that you did battle with a generalised type of anxiety, or at least an anxiety where you couldn't readily identify the triggers and the whole experience just morphed into a general type of discomfort?

 

2. How many times did you dose and what were your dosages?

 

3. Did you follow any cognitive or behavioural process before, during or after taking vorinostat and, if so, how did it affect the outcome?

 

Thanking you in advance.

 

tolerant

[oolongmonkey]

I would also like to know the answers to these questions. Also, did you experience any side-effects? Anything counterproductive?

 

 

I would like to offer couple of insights derived from my personal experience with anxiety disorders and Vorinostat. 

 

I've come to learn that anxiety is always an result of some old emotion or thought that hasn't been properly integrated. We may experience something that at the time is so overwhelmingly intense we just can not put it into it's proper perspective. So we set it on the side to be dealt with later. This doesn't change the content of what we have to experience and the thought of facing it may be as terrifying as it was actually to experience it. So we may postpone facing what we must indefinitely. So we create this small anxiety to keep us from venturing into this dangerous territory of our own minds. In effect we have become afraid of being afraid. Over time we are feeding this small anxiety that keeps on growing until it may even outgrow the original fear. So we start avoiding our anxiety. We have become afraid of the fear or being afraid. Though it doesn't necessarily have to be fear we are avoiding. It may as well be sadness, anger or even certain kind of happiness we are trying to avoid facing. This is what is in my mind is the essence of neuroticsism. Anxiety disorder can consist of hundreds of such unfelt emotions. The only way to recover is to go through all the protective layers we have created and feel what we have denied ourselves to feel.

 

Easier said than done.

 

And this is where Vorinostat may make all the difference. At least it has done it for me. It seems to remove all this unnecessary anxiety so that the underlying emotions can be dealt with and finally made peace with. The only way to beat your fear is to become best friends with it. When there's no anxiety about feeling fear, I find it is possible to stay present to the fact that at the moment I may be scared shitless at the prospect of doing something, acknowledge my fear in its totality and reassure myself that even though I'm feeling like I am about to die from anxiety I am actually safe. From this point it is possible to act despite being afraid and if you do it enough times with favorable results soon you will learn that there is no reason to be afraid of this particular thing. You will have your own experience to back it up. You can not grow if you are not willing to look your fear into its eyes.

 

There are of course many other layers and aspects to effective recovery work, but I believe that Vorinostat combined with deep analytical therapeutic process and balanced body work is as close to panacea for non organic mental disorders as we are going to get.

 

 

Hi neuralis,

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. May I ask a few questions as follows:

 

 

1. Since you talk about "hundreds" of emotions, is it fair to assume that you did battle with a generalised type of anxiety, or at least an anxiety where you couldn't readily identify the triggers and the whole experience just morphed into a general type of discomfort?

 

2. How many times did you dose and what were your dosages?

 

3. Did you follow any cognitive or behavioural process before, during or after taking vorinostat and, if so, how did it affect the outcome?

 

Thanking you in advance.

 

tolerant

 

 

[tolerant]

This is a question to everyone who has taken vorinostat for anxiety: did you at the same time as taking vorinostat take a GABA agonist (e.g. a benzodiazepine) or a calcium channel blocker (e.g. pregabalin) and, if so, did it effect your tolerance/dependence on these drugs?

[neuralis]

Hi, Tolerant! I will gladly share my experience with Vorinostat in more depth and by doing so, I hope to answer your questions.

 

I have been struggling with some kind of anxiety disorder ever since I was 14. These days I see 2 types of distinct anxieties in my life. Though they are not entirely exclusive, there is some overlap. The first type of anxiety rises out from unfelt emotions and traumatic experiences that haven't been properly integrated. An PTSD complex. The only way to recover is to feel these emotions and to give these experiences an meaning that fits into our coherent self-narrative in the present. This I believe fits the bill for the anxiety of most people.

 

The second type of anxiety is something more personal to me. It is the anxiety of living with schizoid personality disorder. It adds a whole another layer of anxiety perceived in interpersonal space and some very devious mechanisms for avoiding facing this anxiety. Dismantling this personality disorder is excruciatingly hard work. Though most people never have to know the anxiety that this disorder brings with it, I believe a lot that I have had to face in recovery so far is not unique at all. For instance I believe that the idea of reclaiming full self assertiveness can be as frightening to someone who is just slightly traumatised as it is to a schizoid. Only difference is that a schizoid first needs to cross a huge relational gap. This is where Vorinostat has helped me immensely by removing a lot of that superficial anxiety I talked about. So that I can be present to the fact of being scared to death on the prospect of doing something and still going through with it. These are the kind of experiences that make us grow, schizoid or not.

 

You were quite right in your assumption about how I used to feel my anxiety. It was just anxiety. The anxiety, singular, varying in strength, always there. I had an idea that it was composed of smaller anxieties for quite some time, but it wasn't until I had shaved off considerable amount of this anxiety using Vorinostat I could really see how it stemmed from all these past hurts. It's like the resolution got turned up. Over time I've learned to identify specific anxieties, to realise their original sources, to see what internal/external factor may trigger them in the present and most importantly how to heal them with the help of Vorinostat.

 

I have been involved in some kind of cognitive work ever since february. Amongst other things I worked with Dr. Nathaniel Branden-s sentence completion exercises for self-esteem. It's very simple yet incredibly powerful tool for deep psychological exploration. I believe that Vorinostat on it's own, dosed passively, can bring on a profound change. But coupled with deep level cognitive work it can do so much more. What seems to be the most beneficial is cognitively contrasting experiences. I will give you an example of what I mean by that:

 

Couple of months ago I bought myself a new pair of headphones. The kind you wear over your ears. And when I went into the public with them I got extremely uncomfortable wearing them. A silly thing to have an anxiety about, but there it was. I decided to dug into the anxiety to see why wearing these headphones had triggered me so badly. Soon I knew what was the event from my past that was bubbling up the surface like this. Knowing where it was coming from didn't do anything for lessening the anxiety though. So the next day I dosed 20mg of vorinostat sublingually and went out for a stroll with my earphones. By that time I had so accustomed to the effects of Vorinostat that I wasn't even surprised that this time I experienced none of that previous anxiety. It just wasn't there, I was free to enjoy the music as I pleased. Here I was in a identical situation that to the one that had one day earlier caused me great deal of distress, yet there was not a trace of that anxiety. To cognitively make that connection, to be present to the contrast between these two experiences and to see the fact that this anxiety had no basis in reality can be deeply healing. Not that vorinostat itself is healing you, just when the anxiety has been removed, the bodies innate capacity for healing is able to kick in.

 

I would like to share another experience with you which had profound repercussions for me. It happened after I smoked weed for the first time after taking a break for 6 months. It put me into a state of pure anxiety. It's not possible for me to put it into words how awful I felt. Just terrible anxiety. I had to take a trip outside in order to take care of something. Just seeing another person at a distance was enough to make me panic. When I had to pass someone, it got so bad, I just dissociated. My body became like a robot I was controlling using a remote control. Really nasty place to be. I was aware how this was all something from the past rushing to the surface and the next day I started thinking whether this kind of anxiety wouldn't be something vorinostat could take care of. Everything I had read about it and my own experiences pointed to to yes. Yet it didn't seem possible, this anxiety was too powerful. I was really afraid to test it out, I wasn't sure I could cope with the disappointment. One week later I decided to give it a go. I dosed 50mg sublingually and snorted another 50 mg. Half an hour later I smoked some weed. I just couldn't believe when there was no anxiety. Just me, being a little stoned, without a trace of anxiety. I had no idea that it was even possible to feel this kind of freedom within myself. This time I had to also take the same kind of trip outside I had done the week before. I saw people and I couldn't care less that they were there. They we're just going on about their own business, there was no reason why that should in any way effect me. I was awestruck by that difference to the point I couldn't help but shed a few tears, right there on the street, for all the times I used to feel so bad. I didn't think this kind of change was ever possible.

 

This experience changed something at a deep level in me. I could notice it in my internal dialogue as well as my interactions with others. Yet I wasn't quite able to put my finger on it. Only  few weeks later when I happened to do something humiliating I realised what had happened. My normal reaction at this situation would've been to relentlessly shame myself, but I was surprised to see I had automatically jumped on being compassionate to myself instead. Then it dawned on me. I used to be extremely ashamed of being me, of having all these problems. And all that shame was gone. A part of me had been healed.

 

After this I've had other similar profoundly healing experiences. In a very short time I've gone from experiencing myself as something coarse and harsh to something as soft as cotton wool. It is possible I would've gotten here on my own, but with the help of Vorinostat I've healed at a rate beyond any of my dreams.

 

I've used about 1.5-2 grams over the course of 5-6 months with doses ranging from 10-100mg. I have to concur with others on the point that it's best not taken on consecutive days. Not even every other day. It just doesn't work when taken too often. The only side effect I experienced was slight lightheadedness and wooziness with doses over 50mg or when I dosed too often. I'm not really literate of the science behind this drug, but I like to think that recovery is just something that cannot be rushed. The body and mind need time to adjust for these kinds of changes to take place. This seems like pushing the limits as it is.

 

If I were to never have another dose again it would be okay. I am now at a point where I am healing without it's assistance. My last dose was a month ago.

 

If anyone wants something clarified or has any further questions I would be happy to help! 

[tolerant]

neuralis,

 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I admire your bravery in facing your fears. I think you've answered many of the questions people may have about vorinostat and anxiety. The questions that come to mind which I would like to direct at you and all other people who have experience with vorinostat are the following:

 

1. Did every dose of vorinostat help in some way or were there doses that had no effect?

2. I understand that the transformative experiences preceded by doses of vorinostat which you described gave you relief by lowering your overall level of anxiety. What about other doses? Did they remove fear associated with a specific trigger or did they also provide overall relief?

 

Thanks,

 

tolerant

[neuralis]

I believe every dose is helping a little. Just some doses have more pronounced effects that others. In my experience it can get rid of all superficial anxiety present. If you are experiencing only slight level of anxiety, might be just a slight discomfort on the background, you will be free from it. But since the anxiety was quite low to begin with, this change might be only slightly noticeable. And at the same if you we're having an acute anxiety attack and you'd suddenly be free from the anxiety, this change would be really profound. Here I think cognitive work is really important. I've said it before, vorinostat seems to be the most beneficial if you are aware of the fact that right here used to be a substantial amount of anxiety that now just isn't there. This is awareness is necessary for removing specific anxieties. Further with cognitive work it is possible to devise these moments for yourself where this deep healing becomes a possibility. This allows to go in deep, to almost surgically remove the tumour of anxiety. I know this sounds unreal. I seriously considered my sanity when I first recognised the potential for this. It is something that shouldn't be possible. And yet it is.

 

What is more fascinating is that it deletes anxiety even if it is artificially boosted. Like the experience I had with weed. The anxiety was always there, weed just brought it to the foreground. And then vorinostat deleted it. Exactly the same happened when I took it alongside stimulants. It just removes all the uneccesary anxiety you would be feeling in the present. I think this could also bring relief to the anxiety brought on by something like benzo WD. That claim is entirely theoretical of course, but I really don't see why it shouldn't work.

 

And those doses that may not be so noticeable at first add up over time and can still create a noticeable change. Though this change will be much more subtle. With these profound experiences the distinction is very clear. You can look at your own experience and say this is how it used to be and this is how it is right now. And these are two very different worlds.

 

I believe at first it is necessary to shave of the top of the anxiety before the components start to separate out and more targeted approach becomes available. It is incredibly powerful substance, I think used this way, its benefits can be maximized.

[stillwater]

Thank you for relating your experience  @neuralis. It sounds like a pretty impressive and effective drug so far.  

 

I put myself into the current groupbuy and I hope I'm not derailing this thread at all , but I've had severe GAD for most of my life as well as panic disorder and ptsd, and the thought of eliminating all this somehow is exciting , yet strangely it also brings up a lot of fear in that when you've had something for so long that's a huge part of your life, personality and mannerisms,  who or what do you become when it's suddenly removed? Especially if you've had it from a pretty young age like I have.

 

What fills the void that gets created and where does all that nervous anxious energy move to? It's as though you may have to learn to retrain yourself to be a somewhat normal person. Kind of like a form of stockholm syndrome,  you've lived with the enemy known as anxiety for so long that you might not know what to do or be without it ?  

 

 

[musicman4534]

stillwater, this was one of the weirder, more interesting things during my experience, and something I read also in I think tree's? experience report. When it first hits you that this anxiety is gone there is a slight surprise and a feeling of sort of missing it, because you identified with it. I'd imagine the longer you've lived with a certain anxiety or fear the more it becomes a part of you and the harder it will be to adjust when it's all of a sudden gone. In my experience, and the way tree (i hope it was actually tree, someone in this thread in the past...) wrote about it, once it was actually gone, and once I realized it was actually gone, I actually welcomed it because there was so much room to fill that space with what I've always felt was "the real me" underneath the anxiety. It is similar to how neuralis said "I believe at first it is necessary to shave of the top of the anxiety before the components start to separate out and more targeted approach becomes available."

 

As HDAC inhibitors do not intrinsically change your mood or basic personality, and in fact enhance memory and memory formation while removing the anxieties and fears surrounding them, it seems, and I felt, that they are a very forgiving and overall helpful compound, not only for removing the fear and anxiety but creating a new life experience for yourself as well. The mechanism of vorinostat, I feel, really carries you safely from beginning to end, not dropping you somewhere in the middle. It is like neuralis said, remaining conscious of what you are doing, and trying to do mental work and being aware while you are doing vorinostat sessions is helpful and important. The vorinostat helps you remember and apply everything you try and learn during the session after the anxiety is stripped away, so the next time you're in that situation you have an entirely new mindframe you can work with in that situation without changing "who you are." Similarly to how neuralis said, you are the one doing the work and growing, and the HDAC inhibitor just gives you the tools you need to not only get past the anxiety and fear but really remember and solidifies what you learn while you do the work of navigating post-anxiety/post-fear space.

[musicman4534]

Accidental second post so I'll just edit it.

 

I was thinking earlier, though, that it could be very helpful in some instances to go to therapy while on vorinostat, because bringing up situations in the mind is just as effective as experiencing them in real life when it comes to vorinostat. A session where certain topics are explored more thoroughly with a psychologist, where they could ask questions or find solutions that you wouldn't even think of, could be very useful in reaching deep fears and anxieties, and, after vorinostat releases the fear/anxiety, quickening the process of resolution and repair after a sort of back and forth with a psychologist.

 

I plan on using meditation more with my next batch, and I suppose this could also be done with a trusted friend, where you have someone or some agent there to help you think of different perspectives/other avenues of thought. In my experience, vorinostat alone helped me do this in real life situations as well, sometimes without me even realizing it. I read of one person having his shyness disappear, and he realized it when he just started talking to people all of a sudden lol

Edited by musicman4534, 22 November 2016 - 02:54 PM.

[stillwater]

@musicman4534      Thank you for the well thought out reply. A day later and I think of my post as something someone with an anxiety disorder would post, anxiety over losing anxiety, haha.  I agree with using therapy to get through it and providing a solid base for the future.  I do look forward to this.

 

[musicman4534]

Hahaha that is the funny thing about this sometimes

 

I just nerd out over some compounds and think of all the ways you could use it, like what if we used vorinostat skydiving that would be beneficial right? Lol conquer fear of death

[tolerant]

Hahaha that is the funny thing about this sometimes

 

I just nerd out over some compounds and think of all the ways you could use it, like what if we used vorinostat skydiving that would be beneficial right? Lol conquer fear of death

 

I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but what you propose would be going to far. There are some very rational fears (like a healthy fear of death) that are given to us by evolution. I also read someone mention that they gave some vorinostat to a girl at around exam time which made her completely anxiety-free, either before or during her next exam. If it's anxiety which interferes with her preparation for the exam, that is fine. But if it's healthy anxiety that drives her on, that would also be excessive and counterproductive. 

 

I would also advocate that people begin dosing vorinostat with some sort of therapy lined up, and also start with small dosages (i.e. 10 mg) before they know how it affects them.

 

On another matter, I've got a question to those who have tried vorinostat (currently only musicman and neuralis are answering these, which I appreciate) : When you have taken vorinostat and then confront a situation which causes you fear/anxiety, does the fear/anxiety build up in a usual way, before it "disappears". That is, do you have to to endure it and push through it before you feel the liberating effects of vorinostat? Or does the "nothing" feeling come on as soon as you face your fear/anxiety?

Edited by tolerant, 23 November 2016 - 09:45 PM.

[p3x888]

So for the purposes of fear removal, would 50mg 3x per week be sufficient? I don't have anxiety but wouldn't mind a boost in confidence. Or am I expecting too much? The main reason I'm asking is so that I can decide how many grams to buy.

[Lunast]

So for the purposes of fear removal, would 50mg 3x per week be sufficient? I don't have anxiety but wouldn't mind a boost in confidence. Or am I expecting too much? The main reason I'm asking is so that I can decide how many grams to buy.

[Lunast]

As far as I know. There isn't any determined or specified regimen for this sort of thing. A couple people I have corresponded with have had success in anxiety cessation at dosages as small as 20mg. Others have used upwards of 100 mg.
I personally have used dosages ranging between these two numbers and only a dozen doses in all. It's too early to tell if my anxiety reducing benefits will be permanent. But I would like to reiterate what others have mentioned by saying that it is not something you need to dose all of the time, or take in any way similar to a prescribed medication.
There is probably some refined dosage somewhere that would optimize helpfulness of the compound to each individual. But we have nothing official here to go by. Just the blind experiments of internet lurkers like myself desperate for some kind of relief.
This said, my personal recommendation is based only on my experience.
Begin by taking a small dose. Perhaps 20mg. Buy at least two grams to begin. This stuff is unbelievably hard to come by (which still surprises me, considering how many more dangerous/less helpful substances are so readily available in places like this).
If you benefit from the Vorinostat, it would be nice to have a little extra lying around for a similar friend in need.

[musicman4534]

 

Hahaha that is the funny thing about this sometimes

 

I just nerd out over some compounds and think of all the ways you could use it, like what if we used vorinostat skydiving that would be beneficial right? Lol conquer fear of death

 

I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but what you propose would be going to far. There are some very rational fears (like a healthy fear of death) that are given to us by evolution. I also read someone mention that they gave some vorinostat to a girl at around exam time which made her completely anxiety-free, either before or during her next exam. If it's anxiety which interferes with her preparation for the exam, that is fine. But if it's healthy anxiety that drives her on, that would also be excessive and counterproductive. 

 

I would also advocate that people begin dosing vorinostat with some sort of therapy lined up, and also start with small dosages (i.e. 10 mg) before they know how it affects them.

 

On another matter, I've got a question to those who have tried vorinostat (currently only musicman and neuralis are answering these, which I appreciate) : When you have taken vorinostat and then confront a situation which causes you fear/anxiety, does the fear/anxiety build up in a usual way, before it "disappears". That is, do you have to to endure it and push through it before you feel the liberating effects of vorinostat? Or does the "nothing" feeling come on as soon as you face your fear/anxiety?

 

 

Hey tolerant,

 

According to the studies any anxiety or fear you may have in the present toward the situation at hand is not affected by vorinostat, just your past fears and anxieties tied to the memories that are built over time and brought up. This is seen in the fact that vorinostat and other HDAC inhibitors can also help someone learn a fear linked with a trigger, as in every time a mouse goes to eat it gets shocked, so it learns to fear eating (sad I know). The power in this for humans is that it gives us the power to live completely in the moment, and completely revise the feelings we have toward a situation. This is akin to how neuralis talked about vorinostat giving you the power or freedom to do the inner work necessary to complete a change in mindframe about a situation. The fear extinction happens, you are free in real-time to reassess the situation however you'd like, and then those are recorded using HDAC inhibitors' memory-enhancing effects. So, vorinostat doesn't blunt any emotions, even fear, it just prevents them from spiraling out of control or getting blowing out of proportion.

 

In my experience, the nothing feeling is instant. The fears don't have to surface to be hashed out, just the memory or experience. The interesting thing is that vorinostat helped me remember key moments in my last more vividly, but let me look at them deeper/in a new way due to there not being a lot of emotion tied to them. All the emotions didn't get dragged up with them, so I was able to kind of rethink through things. I did feel things about them, though, just not the same old feelings that always came up. New, fresh, workable feelings it felt like.

[Lunast]

So for the purposes of fear removal, would 50mg 3x per week be sufficient? I don't have anxiety but wouldn't mind a boost in confidence. Or am I expecting too much? The main reason I'm asking is so that I can decide how many grams to buy.

And it seems like my long-winded response totally ignored your question.
Despite an enormous decrease in anxiety, I'm still horrible at paying attention, sometimes.
I can't say wether or not someone without anxiety can really benefit from Vorinostat. That it in itself could give someone a confidence boost. But I can say that for me, it has vastly improved my life confidence by demolishing a pervasive, base-level of anxiety from the foreground of my mind.
I find my mind still wading toward catastrophic though sequences, out of 34 years of ingrained habit. But somehow, because of Vorinostat and an establishment of healthier living habits, I'm able to take a different path in my mind almost as soon as the fear-based thought sequences arrive. It's like my parasympathetic nervous system has a better ability to engage and I feel less threatened by thoughts of the future, and what others may or may not think of me. This has resulted in a definite increase in confidence and fulfillment of living.
But it's only a result of Vorinostat helping me to recover slowly from something I have always thought was "wrong" with me.

[StevesPetRat]

Below is a collection of quotes from this thread with my comments in italics which show that there seem to be two divergent views: (1) that you need successful extinction therapy for HDACi to work (I've omitted the studies referred to in this thread that show that without successful extinction training, the fear memory may actually strengthen!), and (2) that attempting to be calm while taking HDACi may actually ruin the fear extinction process. Very confusing and somewhat risky.
 
...
StevesPetRat: "But it sounds like one has to face the fear and then become unafraid during the treatment which if I could do I wouldn't really need the help..."
 
Exactly.

... 
Last question of yours... I don't think StevesPetRat read enough of the anecdotes or my posts because HDAC inhibitors do not bring up the past. It's not therapy through normal cognitive pathways, it's therapy through physical changes in transcription, and to the watcher, you, consciousness, it looks like the fear disappeared and you're left with nothing. Not a bad feeling of nothingness felt with the shitty medications doctors use to blunt people's emotions, but an unencumbered state of being from no longer being controlled by your past negative emotions and having the room to feel other emotions in a situation  once again, as if you were a child.

That was before I had tried it. It's definitely a lot easier to use than I had imagined.

[tolerant]

In my experience, the nothing feeling is instant. The fears don't have to surface to be hashed out, just the memory or experience. The interesting thing is that vorinostat helped me remember key moments in my last more vividly, but let me look at them deeper/in a new way due to there not being a lot of emotion tied to them. All the emotions didn't get dragged up with them, so I was able to kind of rethink through things. I did feel things about them, though, just not the same old feelings that always came up. New, fresh, workable feelings it felt like.

 

Hey musicman,

 

Thanks for replying. I don't want to labour this point too much, but earlier you wrote that you think it might be more effective to plunge yourself into a fear-provoking situation rather than just to meditate about it. And you gave an example of a fear of being in crowded places. Now you're saying that it's not the fear that has to be hashed out, but the memory. But surely someone who feels uncomfortable in crowded places would not have a memory of the first time they found themselves in a crowded place and what it was that made them feel uncomfortable, would they?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot, maybe most, people taking vorinostat will be taking it for anxiety relief, i.e. they will be taking it while experiencing anxiety. They will be taking it because they can't get rid of this anxiety and feel really bad. Sure, it is a bad idea to take vorinostat while experiencing some new traumatic situation. But short of that, according to the experiences shared here, vorinostat seems to get rid of anxiety like a benzo would, with the difference that with vorinostat the anxiety may disappear for good. This is not necessarily supported by science, but that seems to be the effect. 

 

Lunast, can you maybe weigh in? Haven't yet heard from you on this point?

Edited by tolerant, 26 November 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[musicman4534]

I touch on the mechanics of this in my original article on Reddit.

 

Essentially, every single bit of cognition in this case can be thought of as a memory... the fear, the trigger, and the original fear-provoking pains are all memories linked to each other in the brain, and also exist in different parts of the brain. When one is pulled up, the others are pulled up to varying degrees depending on the strengths of synapses connecting them. In some cases, even if the original event is muddied, buried or forgotten, what can remain are the fear memories and the triggers, which pop back up throughout life whenever the trigger is experienced, and can even be strengthened over time. When you experience this trigger on vorinostat, something that doesn't intrinsically hurt you but made you feel hurt in the past (something like childhood abandonment), every memory, the fear, the trigger, the pain-inducing events, all past experiences of it, whether you're conscious of them all or not in that moment, are brought up in your brain. Instead of transcription closing before the fear/anxiety can be re-analyzed, re-written and updated, vorinostat holds transcription open long enough for the present moment to be written in stronger than any past memories, including the past fear, trigger and event memories. When it comes to what we would call the actual memory of the event, the way we remember memories (separate pathways for every memory) allows us to still recall everything about the event after a vorinostat session, but fear goes through very specific pathways in the brain, and there can only be one memory high-lander when it comes to fear-inducing memories. When the current non-intrinsically-fear-inducing memory/experience is written in stronger than the past normally-fear-inducing memories, you don't get the fear from the past memories, or some of the past fear mixed with the current stillness... fear only listens to the strongest memory, this is how fear pathways work in the brain, so because vorinostat puts the present moment at the top, you will only feel the fear that might or might not be induced in the present moment, right there, while on vorinostat. Just like people have described in their experience reports.

 

There are people that have triggers and fears from deep memories they can't even remember, and this is the beauty of an HDAC inhibitor like vorinostat... It doesn't matter if you remember the original occurrence or not, because as long as you experience the trigger, every memory and fear that is associated with it does pop up to some degree or another in your brain, and any unnecessary fear that pops up with them is able to be overwritten. The updating of fear is under your consciousness, but the memories that pop up are still seen and can be evaluated by your consciousness. This is why I say that it is not necessary to "push through or learn through the fear" in order for it to disappear, it disappeared the moment it was brought up, but all the memories associated with the trigger and old fears are up for grabs to be seen fresh and learned from (in fact HDACis can help you remember fears long past). I'll try to draw a map of this on paper so it's easier to see. One doesn't have to reevaluate or try to look at the memories differently, but when you take vorinostat you'll see that it's kind of a natural thing to do when all of a sudden you're free of the fear and anxiety and you're left with this clear moment and memories. Like neuralis walking into the store not anxious of the people around him and he tears up... this is a very telling moment of the play between the fears having already been deleted, yet the mind and analysis of memories is just catching up.

 

I say to jump into a situation just because going directly into the situation will likely bring up more memories and bring them up more strongly and for longer compared to meditation, in my opinion. Also, the science does show the fear will stay away for good, and this is why researchers are so avidly studying HDACis for PTSD. I also wouldn't say vorinostat shouldn't be taken in a newly traumatic or fearful situation, because vorinostat will help you learn. What legitimately creates fears in adults is vastly different from what causes the beginnings of fears and anxieties in children and adolescents, first, and second, being on vorinostat during the situation will allow a more wholesome picture to be painted and remembered by your mind, not just a flash of fear and pain like usual. If you think back to the moment five minutes later, an hour later, two hours later and still feel fearful while on vorinostat, chances are there's some usefulness for that bit of fear. The different with being on an HDACi is that the fear will not balloon, and not become stronger than it needs to be. It enhances learning in general, so I'd say just about any situation, fear-inducing or not, can be enhanced by being on an HDACi. Like neuralis said about the anxieties that were present and then enhanced by marijuana, they were there to a degree before the pot all along, the pot just enhanced them, and then when he was on vorinostat they were taken care of even if the original moments or causes have not been outwardly remembered or identified.

 

Some of the persistent anxietes we have likely manifested through a combination of a couple weird experiences in infancy, being reinforced in subtle ways through childhood, and finally being reinforced simply through the trigger being experienced throughout time even after the original cause of the fear has been forgotten/buried. This ballooning is artificial and is meant to keep us safe from predators in the wild, but with us it just manifests as an annoying or even crippling anxiety, which can thankfully be taken care of by an HDACi.

[neuralis]

I had an incredibly busy week and therefore wasn't able to participate in this conversation. I will try to go through all the posts now and try to answer as many points as I can.

 

 

Stillwater, these are very important questions you have asked there. If you have lived with anxiety for the bigger part of your life it's easy to accept anxiety as something that is normal part of life. Even more, it becomes an integral part of yourself. And to have this part of you suddenly removed, is to experience an loss. And like every loss in life, it needs to be grieved. Every person grieves in their own way, but nothing is more effective than tears for grieving. You may shed a few compassionate tears over all the times you've felt just awful, or for the general unfairness of life that it had to be you who was "blessed" with something like this, that this anxiety may have pushed you to develop some harmful negative self images etc etc. But this is something you can't be sad about for too long and these tears will quickly morph into tears of joy and happiness. You are able to see that this anxiety never truly was a part of you and all that it brought with it has been unnecessary suffering. And that there is absolutely no reason why you should continue torturing yourself like that. The relief that having these kinds of epiphanies can bring is just wonderful. When you are not overwhelmed with the immediacy of anxiety, you may find that there is more space within yourself and in that space you may start finding new qualities and traits in yourself you never were acutely aware of. When you have disidentified from the anxiety, you can start to discover who you really are. It is a deeply rewarding experience.

 

I very strongly agree with the sentiment of Musicman, that the way Vorinostat carries you through all this incredibly gentle. It creates a sort of safe space where this deep work is possible without drowning in your own emotions. 

 

I imagine it could be quite beneficial with a good therapist. The hard thing is finding a really good therapist. I had been in therapy for about a year when I first started taking Vorinostat. By that time I had educated myself enough on my conditions to have a quite detailed roadmap for recovery. Vorinostat was like a jet fuel to this process and I started taking more and more steps every session. Finally I was ready to really get better. But my therapist was not. In the end she deeply hurt me and this fucked me up good for several months. Now in hindsight I see how her own unresolved fears became the obstacle. This is something I will never risk going through again. There are plenty of very good books out there that can help to instill a more favorable frame of mind. I am so much better off being my own therapist haha. But I am a schizoid, so your mileage may vary. A lot.

 

 

 

Vorinostat is very effective at relieving superficial, completely unnecessary suffering. Stuff like irrational anxieties, emotional charge of negative self-images, toxic shame etc. These things are purely creations of our own minds, they have no basis in reality. Lately I've been calling them pseudoemotions. The fear of death is an emotion that is very strongly rooted in reality. So unlike pseudoemotions, it cannot be deleted this way. But what can be deleted is the anxiety surrounding the fear of death. Stuff like having irrational fears about dying when there is no threat present. Or when you actually have to face the fear of death. As I said that in one of my previous posts that this superficial anxiety may even outgrow their original emotional source. Consider a hypothetical situation where you have to cross 5 meters on a narrow board at great hight. The moment you start crossing the board you feel this overwhelming fear taking you over. And then that fear makes you think about what would happen if you were to fall down. You start drasticizing and you lose your focus in the moment where you need it so much. When you loose your focus anything can happen, you may freeze, loose your balance and fall etc. At first glance it may seem like a singular emotional event - the experience of the emotion of fear of death. But in fact it is the emotion of fear that triggers anxiety that may cause us to freeze and fall down. When there is no anxiety present, you will still feel the fear. But that fear doesn't lead you to drasticize. Instead it grounds you more into the present moment and gives you the focus necessary to make it safely to the other side.

 

This all is only hypothetical of course. I haven't done any experiments with the fear of death just yet, but I did have an experience with very similar thematics last week. And since using Vorinostat for exams was brought up as well, I'd like to share that experience here as well. 

 

Since I am doing all this therapeutic work I have also spent a lot of time thinking about what kind of life I would like to create for myself for the years to come. In effect all my therapeutic efforts are done with specific goals in mind. My mindset these days is very strongly based on the thought of what can I do today to have the kind of life I want tomorrow. And a first big step for me, that was unmistakably in the direction I want to go, was taking this exam last saturday. To say that passing this exam had the utmost importance to me is an understatement. I was quite anxious on the days leading up to the exam. The ramifications of both succeeding and failing were very strongly in my mind. The morning of the exam I snorted 20mg of Vorinostat (snorting seems to be the most efficient way of using it in my experience). I was extremely nervous when the exam began. I don't think I've ever been so nervous before in my adult life. But this nervousness didn't become in any way overwhelming. It was very intense, but I was somehow able to tap into this intense nervous energy. It put me on the edge and I think thanks to this nervousness I was able to give my very best performance. I cannot imagine taking this exam and not experiencing this nervousness. It would be an experience completely devoid of meaning. It seems that if there is no anxiety present, not only can our emotions enhance our lives with meaning, they can also become an incredibly powerful resource. 

 

 

 

 

I can understand how there can be confusion about how this healing exactly happens with Vorinostat. All these different angles are true. Since anxieties come in many different forms, the path of healing is also different. 

 

First there are very specific anxieties that also have very specific triggers. These kind of anxieties need to have their triggers faced before they can be resolved. Only by seeing that there is no need for anxious response in the present, can a new kind of response develop. Think of my experience with headphones for instance. The fear of being in a crowd also belongs here. The fear of being in a crowd is a curious beast as there is no such thing as the fear or being in a crowd. The anxiety response is always triggered about something specific we experience while we are surrounded by other people. It may be something in peoples faces, something about having a lot of people around so we don't have much space etc etc. It may be any number of things that triggers us, but it is always very specific. This is a prime example of anxiety outgrowing it's original source. What started out as an one detail that causes us uneasiness has grown into something that encompasses the whole meaning of the word "crowd". This is where it is necessary to shave of the top of the anxiety before the individual components can be dealt with separately.

 

Secondly there are the anxieties that arise from old emotions that need to be integrated. For that we need all the components of the experience. We need to know what was the experience, how did it feel for us to experience it and what is the meaning of this experience to us here in the present day. This is the level where deep cognitive work is necessary. When we are able to look at a difficult experience from our past, without any of the surrounding anxiety, we can make a connection to the emotion of this experience. When we stay compassionately present to our past hurt it is possible to gain a new perspective on our suffering. And with this new perspective we can integrate this old experience into our present, coherent self-narrative. This process can also start with experiencing an old emotion. I've had this a lot lately that some old emotion comes up. By deciding to feel this emotion in the present I am able to remember what was the event where I felt this particular feeling and finally put it to rest.

 

And lastly there are anxieties that have absolutely no basis in reality. These are the anxieties about having anxieties. Anxieties we may have wrongly attached to situations that are only similar to anxiety causing situations. This is purely unnecessary suffering we have created for ourselves. These neurotic defenses consist the bulk of the anxiety most people feel, myself included. Here there is no extra work needed. Just taking a dose of vorinostat while experiencing this anxety is enough. This is the immediate relief that can be profoundly life changing.

 

EDIT: I just wanted to say that within my own experience and my limited understanding of the science behind HDACi-s, I am compelled to concur with everything Musicman has said so far. The idea that with every memory recall there are other experiences that piggyback up as well and can be dealt without even becoming acutely aware of them resonates very strongly with me.

Edited by neuralis, 26 November 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[gedanken]

As someone with OCD, I'm wondering if it'd be more effective to exterminate our fear of superstition in general rather than targeting specific triggers while on an HDACi. Would that be efficient?

 

Perhaps it'd address many problems at once, in theory it'd possibly be attacking the nature of the disorder itself?

Edited by gedanken, 28 November 2016 - 01:51 AM.