45 replies to this topic

[shifter]

Looking at the researchg done on rats, they got an equivalent dose of 8 or more bottles of pre mixed c60 in olive oil, every day for 24 days

So has anyone tried anything like that? Taking a small dose of a bottle every day could get a bit tedious, so anyone tried at least an entire pre mixed bottle once a month or per day?

I am just wondering with our bodies digestive system if taking such a small amount presents the chance that the c60 could be 'missed' by the digestive system and pass through untouched whereas taking a large amount all at once 'assures' the body wont end up missing out on at least some of the molecule.

I've ordered 3 bottles from Vaughter Wellness to see how I like it. Not sure on the 'optimal' way to take it.

So has anyone 'mega dosed' on this? I know there was a mega dose club for Resveratrol users, maybe a similar club could be done for this? Given its touted as 'anti toxic' it seems the only thing we have to lose is a bit of money.

[VP.]

Anthoney Loera did some mega dosing last year but he never said what the result was. He runs C60.net.

[niner]

The bioavailability of c60-oo is very high. It doesn't seem to matter if you take small quantities frequently or large quantities infrequently. I take about 30 mg once a month. There was a guy here who was taking 50 mg/day over a significant amount of time, which is the highest total dose I know of. Anthony took something like 140 mg at a time, trying to match the rat dose without scaling it to a human equivalent dose.

[JohnD60]

I take 10mg about every 10 days. I don't presume it to be non toxic, I just calculate the possible upside to out weigh the possible down side toxic risk for someone my age. If I were 25 I would not be taking it.

Edited by JohnD60, 18 February 2014 - 03:19 AM.

[MizTen]

I take about a teaspoon every 5-7 days. My dosages and frequency are probably even more random than that. This is mostly because I really can't figure out an optimal dose and it's stored in the fridge so it's too thick to measure in milliliters.

The exercise, strength, and endurance effect is definitely present. It also seems to last for several days after dosing.

[shifter]

It is usally difficult for me to 'feel' effects on things. I will have 3 bottles soon. I might down a full bottle (45mg in 50ml) and then take as recommended thereafter. The shipping cost of around $10 isn't prohibitive so I will order more when I need.

I am wondering, a big issue for me is the subluxed hip I have. It started when I was in my early 20's although my twin brother had it worse and all his life. Has anyone given any anecdotal accounts on what this is like for arthritis? Can anyone see how it may affect (or not affect) this problem?

[hav]

Looking at the researchg done on rats, they got an equivalent dose of 8 or more bottles of pre mixed c60 in olive oil, every day for 24 days

Not sure how OP figures that. Baati indicates they used the following the following:

Fig. 3. Animal survival and growth. Chronic effects of C60 in rats. (a) Survival and (b) growth of surviving animals, after treatment (oral gavages) at reiterated doses (1.7 mg/kg bw) with water, olive-oil or C60-olive oil.

If SV puts 45 mg of c60 in each 50 ml bottle, it should take slightly more than 2 to equal Baati, even without scaling which would indicate a smaller equivalent dose. If scaling is based on metabolic rates, my thinking is scaling might not be appropriate because c60 doesn't seem to be metabolized.

I aimed for the Baatt dosage myself but wasn't up to swallowing that much olive oil daily. So I went with 45ml/day (36 mg c60) for the first 6 weeks. And have cut back to the same amount once every other week. Don't have any particularly noteworthy results or effects to report other than I'm still alive and well.

Howard

Edited by hav, 19 February 2014 - 06:35 PM.

[shifter]

How much does a c60 molecule weigh? eg How many c60 molecules are there in 1mg c60
If you wanted every cell in your body that could benefit to take on a c60 molecule, how many mg do you need to ingest? (eg for a guy weighing 70-80kgs)

[hav]

How much does a c60 molecule weigh? eg How many c60 molecules are there in 1mg c60
If you wanted every cell in your body that could benefit to take on a c60 molecule, how many mg do you need to ingest? (eg for a guy weighing 70-80kgs)

If I recall my molar chemistry, weight = (weight of a mole x number of molecules) / Avagadro's Number

Avagadro's number is 6.022 x 10²³ . Weight oh a mole of c60 is 720.64 gr. Here's a study estimating the number of cells in a human but the abstract doesn't tell us the weight of that human but its probably 70 kg:

An estimation of the number of cells in the human body

A current estimation of human total cell number calculated for a variety of organs and cell types is presented. These partial data correspond to a total number of 3.72 × 10¹³ .
...
Knowing the total cell number of the human body as well as of individual organs is important from a cultural, biological, medical and comparative modelling point of view. The presented cell count could be a starting point for a common effort to complete the total calculation.

So if I got all that and then the math right... it would take around 445 × 10^-10 g of c60 to match the estimated cell count for a human. Seems like more than enough molecules to go around. Assuming it can get to every cell and doesn't get cleared too quickly.

Howard

Edited by hav, 20 February 2014 - 02:06 AM.

[niner]

Baati indicates they used the following the following:

Fig. 3. Animal survival and growth. Chronic effects of C60 in rats. (a) Survival and (b) growth of surviving animals, after treatment (oral gavages) at reiterated doses (1.7 mg/kg bw) with water, olive-oil or C60-olive oil.

If SV puts 45 mg of c60 in each 50 ml bottle, it should take slightly more than 2 to equal Baati, even without scaling which would indicate a smaller equivalent dose. If scaling is based on metabolic rates, my thinking is scaling might not be appropriate because c60 doesn't seem to be metabolized.

I aimed for the Baatt dosage myself but wasn't up to swallowing that much olive oil daily. So I went with 45ml/day (36 mg c60) for the first 6 weeks. And have cut back to the same amount once every other week.

Scaling is usually explained as relating to metabolic rate. Consider that if c60 is acting at the mitochondria, in the rat that mitochondria is running at a faster rate than in humans with their lower metabolism. Thus the fact that c60-oo isn't metabolized (other than the initial cleavage by a lipase) probably doesn't get it off the hook with respect to scaling. For us, that's a good thing, since it means we shouldn't need as much. My experience with dose-ranging of c60 was that a very small amount was needed to see effects, but with small doses the effects would wear off relatively quickly (e.g. in a few days). Larger doses didn't cause the effects to be bigger- they were either there or not there, but with larger doses, the effects would last a lot longer.

Baati's rats got a very large dose. In fact, they got a lot of very large doses. That was fortuitous, since they apparently had enough on board to last a couple years after dosing was stopped. I really don't think it's necessary for humans to take the dose the rats got, without scaling it. If you scale it by 1/6, the typical rat factor, then 1.7/6= 0.283mg/kg. For me (65 kg), that's something like 18mg, which the rats got every 2 weeks after the loading phase. At the moment, I'm using 30mg/month, taken once a month, so that's actually pretty close to the Baati maintenance dose.

[shifter]

Just had my first dose. On a light stomach. I did the entire bottle at once. Had an almost burn sensation at the back of the throat and needed to eat a rusk. Don't want to do that again! The oil was a nice burgandy/purple colour. But only when viewing a lot together. (the whole 50ml in a glass) in the dropper it was an olive green.

No laxative effect from taking 50ml of olive oil at once either. I'll be taking the standard dose for now on though.

I didn't 'feel' anything but I'm not an active person. Hopefully this could do something for my arthritis and active levels the way it has helped some members dogs. Or it simply won't be noticed until I'm old enough to surpass my own children's lives! I'll let you know if it helps my Subluxed arthritic hip. It's recently flared up again.

[niner]

Wow shifter, 50ml is a lot of olive oil to do in one shot. The burn is because it's a high polyphenol oil that has quite a bite to it, at least if you got if from Sarah Vaughter. Carbon60oliveoil.com uses a milder oil. Keep us posted on how you feel. That dose ought to last you for a couple months. (I dose once a month, using fewer mg of c60 than you, but in a slightly larger volume of oil (60ml) which I have over food; 15ml at a time for 4 consecutive meals.)

Edited by niner, 02 March 2014 - 03:19 AM.

[blood]

At the moment, I'm using 30mg/month, taken once a month, so that's actually pretty close to the Baati maintenance dose.

I'm guessing you mix up your own C60-EVOO - is there a post where you describe how you make up your mixture?

(Are you using magnetic stirrers, left on for weeks, etc).

Do you think it would be OK (safe) to dump the C60 powder into a bottle of olive oil, leave for a few weeks, then shake & consume (without straining/ filtering)?

[Hebbeh]

Do you think it would be OK (safe) to dump the C60 powder into a bottle of olive oil, leave for a few weeks, then shake & consume (without straining/ filtering)?

Works for me

[niner]

At the moment, I'm using 30mg/month, taken once a month, so that's actually pretty close to the Baati maintenance dose.

I'm guessing you mix up your own C60-EVOO - is there a post where you describe how you make up your mixture?

(Are you using magnetic stirrers, left on for weeks, etc).

Do you think it would be OK (safe) to dump the C60 powder into a bottle of olive oil, leave for a few weeks, then shake & consume (without straining/ filtering)?

This is pretty much what I did. I tried it first with high purity c60 (99.95%, from SES) and found that it took forever to dissolve. After about a month I had the idea of grinding the crystals, and made a second batch. Grinding did in fact speed things up hugely. I didn't bother to filter, since particulate forms should be eliminated in the GI tract. Since then, I've re-thought everything. It turns out that C60 is very air sensitive. It forms various oxidation products on the surface of the crystal, so grinding is not such a great idea unless you can do it in an O2-free atmosphere. For my next batch, I'm gearing up to use a magnetic stirrer in a sealed flask, without grinding. I'll vacuum filter to 220 nm, then store it in 60ml amber glass bottles with polyseal caps, which I'll freeze until use. I've found that the anti-eczema property of c60-oo is lost fairly rapidly when the c60-oo is stored in a large bottle with a big air space. The bottles that I had been using were olive oil bottles that were sealed with a cork, which is a terrible choice. I think the low-tech approach would still be ok if you use a good bottle and stopper system. If you don't want to grind the c60, you may find that the lower purity varieties dissolve a lot faster because the ellipsoidal c70, the major contaminant, disrupts and weakens the crystal lattice. Neither of the major commercial producers are using ultra-high purity c60. I'm going to filter my next batch because I really only have evidence (from a mouse paper) that large particles are eliminated. There may well be a class of particles that are big enough to filter out, but small enough to get into the bloodstream. Aggregated forms of c60 are pro-oxidant, so I'd rather not have them around. I don't know about the stuff that gets through the filter. I'm not sure how much there would be or if it might continue to react. One thing that I think is a complete waste of time is centrifugation. The centrifuge isn't going to catch anything that makes it through the filter, and everything the centrifuge is capable of removing would be stopped by the filter, so it adds nothing.

[APBT]

For my next batch, I'm gearing up to use a magnetic stirrer in a sealed flask, without grinding. I'll vacuum filter to 220 nm, then store it in 60ml amber glass bottles with polyseal caps, which I'll freeze until use..

Could you please provide links to the specific equipment and storage containers you'll be employing? Thanks.
Magnetic stirrer/sealed flask
Vacuum filter
Amber glass bottles w/polyseal caps
Any other items?

[trance]

Wow shifter, 50ml is a lot of olive oil to do in one shot. The burn is because it's a high polyphenol oil that has quite a bite to it, at least if you got if from Sarah Vaughter. Carbon60oliveoil.com uses a milder oil.

I've noticed the "burn" from my home-brew C60-oo solution weakens over time, possibly the phenol components are part of the reaction or are oxidized. However, the "burn" still exists full strength in the original olive oil, as a comparison.

[niner]

Could you please provide links to the specific equipment and storage containers you'll be employing? Thanks.
Magnetic stirrer/sealed flask
Vacuum filter
Amber glass bottles w/polyseal caps
Any other items?

Stirrer = Benchmark Scientific H4000, $210. Not cheap, but the cheaper ones burn out quickly when stirring viscous oils for long periods, according to hav. He's had good luck with this one.

Flask Just a plain Erlenmeyer, sealed with a silicone stopper from WidgetCo.

Filters Wow, I see the price just tripled... For some reason the ones I got were unusually cheap- $36.44. That's Amazon for ya. Never twice the same price. The cellulose nitrate filters are supposed to work with vegetable oils.

Amber glass bottles You have to call and ask for the polyseal lids. They're 15 cents each.

Low Budget Hand Vacuum pump I hope this works...

[Hebbeh]

Wow shifter, 50ml is a lot of olive oil to do in one shot. The burn is because it's a high polyphenol oil that has quite a bite to it, at least if you got if from Sarah Vaughter. Carbon60oliveoil.com uses a milder oil.

I've noticed the "burn" from my home-brew C60-oo solution weakens over time, possibly the phenol components are part of the reaction or are oxidized. However, the "burn" still exists full strength in the original olive oil, as a comparison.

I've noticed the same and wondered about this. The positive effects on exercise tolerance and endurance seem not to be affected though.

[niner]

I've noticed the "burn" from my home-brew C60-oo solution weakens over time, possibly the phenol components are part of the reaction or are oxidized. However, the "burn" still exists full strength in the original olive oil, as a comparison.

I've noticed the same and wondered about this. The positive effects on exercise tolerance and endurance seem not to be affected though.

This is pretty interesting. C60 forms epoxides relatively easily, from air oxidation, among other oxidants. Those epoxides are themselves relatively reactive toward a number of reactants, including phenols. To get a decent reaction rate, you'd need a Lewis acid catalyst, but in an agricultural product like olive oil, there probably is something that would do the job, like a bit of clay. It's possible that over time, we're using up the phenolic compounds in the olive oil. We would also be creating a bunch of weirdly substituted fullerenes. I use high polyphenol olive oil every day with lunch and dinner, but for my next batch of c60-oo, I think I'm going to use a low-poly oil. I think the active ingredient is the c60-fatty acid adduct, and that the polyphenols in the oil have little bearing on the results we're seeing with it. The phenomenon of disappearing burn suggests to me that a high poly oil might actually do more harm than good in this case.

[free10]

At the moment, I'm using 30mg/month, taken once a month, so that's actually pretty close to the Baati maintenance dose.

I'm guessing you mix up your own C60-EVOO - is there a post where you describe how you make up your mixture?

(Are you using magnetic stirrers, left on for weeks, etc).

Do you think it would be OK (safe) to dump the C60 powder into a bottle of olive oil, leave for a few weeks, then shake & consume (without straining/ filtering)?

This is pretty much what I did. I tried it first with high purity c60 (99.95%, from SES) and found that it took forever to dissolve. After about a month I had the idea of grinding the crystals, and made a second batch. Grinding did in fact speed things up hugely. I didn't bother to filter, since particulate forms should be eliminated in the GI tract. Since then, I've re-thought everything. It turns out that C60 is very air sensitive. It forms various oxidation products on the surface of the crystal, so grinding is not such a great idea unless you can do it in an O2-free atmosphere. For my next batch, I'm gearing up to use a magnetic stirrer in a sealed flask, without grinding. I'll vacuum filter to 220 nm, then store it in 60ml amber glass bottles with polyseal caps, which I'll freeze until use. I've found that the anti-eczema property of c60-oo is lost fairly rapidly when the c60-oo is stored in a large bottle with a big air space. The bottles that I had been using were olive oil bottles that were sealed with a cork, which is a terrible choice. I think the low-tech approach would still be ok if you use a good bottle and stopper system. If you don't want to grind the c60, you may find that the lower purity varieties dissolve a lot faster because the ellipsoidal c70, the major contaminant, disrupts and weakens the crystal lattice. Neither of the major commercial producers are using ultra-high purity c60. I'm going to filter my next batch because I really only have evidence (from a mouse paper) that large particles are eliminated. There may well be a class of particles that are big enough to filter out, but small enough to get into the bloodstream. Aggregated forms of c60 are pro-oxidant, so I'd rather not have them around. I don't know about the stuff that gets through the filter. I'm not sure how much there would be or if it might continue to react. One thing that I think is a complete waste of time is centrifugation. The centrifuge isn't going to catch anything that makes it through the filter, and everything the centrifuge is capable of removing would be stopped by the filter, so it adds nothing.

If you wanted pretty much air free grinding then a tiny amount of oil on top of the C60 I would think would do the trick, and then grind away. Just a thought

[hamishm00]

I tried that. Seems to dissolve almost as well as when grinding without oil.

Edited by hamishm00, 05 March 2014 - 05:05 AM.

[cuprous]

In my last batch I did not grind the c60 at all. A few days in a magnetic stirrer and it was fully dissolved.

[niner]

In my last batch I did not grind the c60 at all. A few days in a magnetic stirrer and it was fully dissolved.

What was the purity of the c60? Lower purity forms dissolve easier. I haven't started a batch under the new high tech (high cost...) regime, but hav said that he stirs for two weeks.

[xEva]

I found that temperature has a lot to do with it. I did my first batch in Feb, with typical temp in the kitchen ~16C (60F) and it took forever to dissolve (over a month). The second batch I did in June, with temps in the kitchen ~24C. Same C60 (the other half gram), same brand of oil, and in just a couple of days the color was deeper than after 3 weeks in Feb.

8 degrees C does not seem like big difference, and yet.

[mait]

Hello,

The possible pro-oxidant effects of aggregates from unfiltered C60 olive oil make me really worried. I have been using the following “protocol” for making and dosing C60 for 5 months now:

First I took 370ml air tight glass jar in which I dissolved 150mg of C60 in vacuum oven dried 99.95+ % purity grade. My glass jar has been continuously on the magnetic stirrer in dark room except for one day a week on which I turn off the stirrer on the morning and collect 50ml of olive oil from top of the jar to be used in following week. I have been using 4mg / 5 days a week dosing regime. Immediately after the collection of C60 I top out the jar with olive oil and add 20mg of C60 and the process continues. NB! I haven’t grinded my C60.

Here are the reasons I feel so worried about the aggregation problem now: firstly the colour of my C60 in EVOO solution is brown, which should imply heavy aggregation process. Secondly I have been seeing the accumulation of undissolved C60 on the bottom of my glass jar ( I would estimate that after going through around 0.8g of C60 I have 0.25-0.3g of undissolved c60 laying on the bottom of my glass jar. Thirdly Baati et al., 2012 have specially noted in their article that the solution the used was not in brown coloured and did not turn into brown colour (they interpreted the brown colour of C60 in EVOO solution as showing the level of aggregation).

Niner, do You have any option on my “protocol” and possible negative effects of pro-oxidant C60 aggregates. Could You please inform us the purity grade of C60 You have been using. I am thinking that maybe the Carbon 60, 99.9+ %, purified would dissolve better than Carbon 60, 99.95+ %, ultra pure Vacuum oven dried variety. Do You know the purity level of C60 that Baati et al., 2012 were using? They say 99.98% pure in the article so it would imply VOD variety of C60? Thank You in advance.

Edited by mait, 08 March 2014 - 10:02 AM.

[hamishm00]

With the grind and occasional stir method the oil turns red after a week or so. A month later it just gets a bit darker, still red.

I am wonder if all this stirring is increasing oxidisation of the c60-oo.

Are you stirring in a vacuum, or is there air in the vessel?

Edited by hamishm00, 08 March 2014 - 03:44 PM.

[mait]

With the grind and occasional stir method the oil turns red after a week or so. A month later it just gets a bit darker, still red.

I am wonder if all this stirring is increasing oxidisation of the c60-oo.

Are you stirring in a vacuum, or is there air in the vessel?

Hello. The jar is closed air thigh but there is around 3-5mm of free air space right above the olive oil solution.

[hav]

First I took 370ml air tight glass jar in which I dissolved 150mg of C60 in vacuum oven dried 99.95+ % purity grade. My glass jar has been continuously on the magnetic stirrer in dark room except for one day a week on which I turn off the stirrer on the morning and collect 50ml of olive oil from top of the jar to be used in following week. I have been using 4mg / 5 days a week dosing regime. Immediately after the collection of C60 I top out the jar with olive oil and add 20mg of C60 and the process continues. NB! I haven’t grinded my C60.

Here are the reasons I feel so worried about the aggregation problem now: firstly the colour of my C60 in EVOO solution is brown, which should imply heavy aggregation process. Secondly I have been seeing the accumulation of undissolved C60 on the bottom of my glass jar ( I would estimate that after going through around 0.8g of C60 I have 0.25-0.3g of undissolved c60 laying on the bottom of my glass jar. Thirdly Baati et al., 2012 have specially noted in their article that the solution the used was not in brown coloured and did not turn into brown colour (they interpreted the brown colour of C60 in EVOO solution as showing the level of aggregation).

That sounds different from what Baati did. They did not mention using an air tight jar, they stirred for 2 weeks, and they didn't mention reusing the leftovers from the bottom after drawing off supernatant. Also, your color determination may be lighting dependent. Try shining a white led-light through your solution and see if it lights up red. Baati actually used a laser and assessed the lack of aggregates in suspension by absence of beam deflection, but that was after centrifuging and filtering. But one of the researchers, Dr Moussa, questioned over concern with the presence of aggregates or c60 in suspension based on his belief that any undissolved material would simply pass through the digestive tract unabsorbed and be eliminated. It's probably only an issue with injection. Fwiw, out of an abundance of caution I filter my mix anyway but stopped centrifuging when I noticed nothing being removed if I filtered first.

Howard

[cuprous]

In my last batch I did not grind the c60 at all. A few days in a magnetic stirrer and it was fully dissolved.

What was the purity of the c60? Lower purity forms dissolve easier. I haven't started a batch under the new high tech (high cost...) regime, but hav said that he stirs for two weeks.

99.95%

The magnetic stir bar is bright white. It naturally sits against the side of the glass jar given the concavity at the bottom and is hexagonal in shape with a flat surface often presented to the top.

Stop the stirring, wait a day. Look at the white bar.. is there "dust" gathered on the top? If not you probably have full dissolution. If there is then get the bar back on the job and try again in a couple days.

Any problems with this approach?