28 replies to this topic

[seleukos]

I just read this study of medicinal mushrooms' effects on neurite outgrowth. I would be interested in what some others think:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3852280/

I, myself, have taken Paul Stamets' "Host Defense" brand of Lion's Mane (Hericium Erinaceus) mushroom extract in the past, in part informed by what I've read about Lion's Mane in longecity forums. The study I've cited above seems to suggest that Maitake (G. Frondosa) and Reishi (G. Lucidum) put Lion's Mane to shame in the neurite outgrowth department, which is the thing at which I believe Lion's Mane is claimed to excel (via stimulating NGF). Just take a look at some of the histological slides depicting the neurite growth (it's unfortunate that they don't have a slide of Lion's Mane for comparison).

Consider the following:

The positive control (NGF) recorded 26.4 ± 3.6% of neurite-bearing cells (Figure 2). The extraction yield of extracts from the mushrooms are summarised in Table 2. The percentage of neurite bearing cells after treatment with aqueous extracts of G. lucidum (38.4 ± 4.2%), L. rhinocerotis (38.1 ± 2.6%), and ethanol extract of C. militaris (35.8 ± 3.4%) were significantly higher (p < 0.01) than NGF control by approximately 1.45-, 1.44- and 1.35-fold, respectively. Aqueous extracts of G. frondosa (33.7 ± 1.5%) and P. giganteus (33.4 ± 4.6%) were also shown to induce significantly (p < 0.05) higher neurite bearing cells compared to the NGF control. Meanwhile, the aqueous extracts of L. rhinocerotismycelium, H. erinaceus, G. neo- japonicum, P. pulmonarius, as well as ethanol extracts of H. erinaceus,P. pulmonarius and P. giganteus showed varied neurite outgrowth stimulatory effects with average neurite bearing cells ranging from 26.4 ± 5.4% to 29.6 ± 2.2%. Further, these extracts showed no significant difference when compared to NGF control (p > 0.05). Among the plant extracts tested, wolfberry extract did not show any neurite outgrowth activity. The percentage of neurite bearing cells obtained after treatment with 20 μg/ml of ethanol extract of G. biloba (30.3 ± 2.5%) was better than curcumin which gave 26.4 ± 5.4% at 20 μg/ml. The five different mushroom extracts (G. lucidum, L. rhinocerotis, P. giganteus, G. frondosa and C. militaris) each at 20 μg/ml were selected for neurofilament staining.

Does this seem to indicate that Reishi and Maitake might be more useful in achieving some of the nootropic goals for which people have been suggesting the use of Lion's Mane? I'm aware that there are studies in which Lion's Mane has shown some capacity for encouraging other kinds of nervous system support (e.g. myelination: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12675022) Anyway, I'd like to hear anybody's thoughts.

[medicineman]

Lions mane is overhyped. Even if Reishi didn't exhibit CNS effects, it has stood the test of time as a weapon in a life extensionisnts arsenal.

the problem is finding good, concentrated brands. mushroom powder alone doesn't appeal to me.

[seleukos]

Lions mane is overhyped. Even if Reishi didn't exhibit CNS effects, it has stood the test of time as a weapon in a life extensionisnts arsenal.

the problem is finding good, concentrated brands. mushroom powder alone doesn't appeal to me.

Yes, I'd been aware of Reishi's host of well-researched effects that serve us life extensionists well, such as the anti-neoplastic, hypoglycemic, and cholesterolytic effects, etc.; what I wasn't aware of was its apparent superiority over Lion's Mane for the desired CNS effects.

I couldn't agree more with you concerning the problem of finding a decent source for medicinal mushroom products. Of the many mushroom extracts I've tried, I have only thus far used Stamets' "Host Defense" products, which many consider to be overpriced; I'd agree. Right now, I'm particularly interested in hunting down a good source of Reishi extract... or perhaps even putting the time into perfecting the optimal extraction methods myself. Any thoughts?

[medicineman]

I order from badmonkeybotanicals

I have yet to try their reishi. Looks good though, and somewhat more affordable. Will order it on my next pay and let you know

[seleukos]

I order from badmonkeybotanicals

I have yet to try their reishi. Looks good though, and somewhat more affordable. Will order it on my next pay and let you know

Thank you for that link, that's certainly more within the price range/quantity I'm looking for.

Now, that product indicates a 50% polysaccharide extract... I believe an alcohol extraction method is required to extract the triterpenes, of which there's no mention in the product description. I'm not entirely sure how involved the triterpenes are in the NGF-stimulating effects (I know they have been linked to antihistaminergic effects); numerous studies concerning the NGF-stimulating effects of G. Lucidum indicate an "aqueous extract" being used so I'm leaning toward interpreting this meaning the polysaccharides or some other water extraction method derived compound in the mushroom being responsible for the NGF-simulating effects. I'll have to do a little bit more reading into this, but 50 grams of reishi powder for $16 is surely worth it, if only for the immunity boosting effects from the beta glucans.

[trance]

Various organic mushroom powders and blends here:

http://www.mushroomh...ex.php?cPath=39

[seleukos]

Various organic mushroom powders and blends here:

http://www.mushroomh...ex.php?cPath=39

Thank you! Have you purchased/do you have any experience with any of the products from mushroom harvest? I've been trying to zero in on the best, most potent, and economical (preferably bulk) reishi source.

[trance]

Various organic mushroom powders and blends here:

http://www.mushroomh...ex.php?cPath=39

Thank you! Have you purchased/do you have any experience with any of the products from mushroom harvest? I've been trying to zero in on the best, most potent, and economical (preferably bulk) reishi source.

Yes, I've been a customer for a few years now. I mostly purchase their Lions Mane powder, but like you suggest, I have also tried their blended powder for the Reishi & other mushrooms reported myelination effects.

I've posted my experiences in the past here, but there's a clarity of mind, better overall cognitive feeling, slightly more vivid dreams & recall, after about 28-30 days of use. I just add a small scoop to my morning blended coffee/protein drink, a little gritty texture additive but not much of a mushroom flavor if it's masked with something a bit stronger in flavor.

[1337]

I have been using the Reishi (whole mushroom powder) in combination with the Lions Mane. I find the Reishi to be sedating though and I am forced to only take it right before bed. That is the best time for NGF stimulation anyway though so it works out just fine.

As far as effect, I have been at this for a little over a year with this source/combination and I can say for sure it has made a difference. Better recall and more focus for sure. Super saturated racetam-like visual effects are present (oh yeah!!) as well.

When combined with CILTeP and Phenylpiracetam after a while you get a bit of a "mad scientist"/crazy feeling...Not high-energy mania, but more of a "hyperthreading" feeling. Not anxiety per say but it is an interestingly uncomfortable sensation for sure. Like you are making connections and recalling data ALMOST too quickly for comfort. This effect is highly exaggerated if one doses too high or redoses during the day. I have also begun to loathe sleep, as the waste of time it is. I understand the need and the utility of good sleep but the irritation persists. There are times when even urination can seem like a hardly justifiable diversion

At the end of the day, I often remark to my partner that I feel "nuts". Not unpleasant enough to be avoided, but I certainly look and feel strange.

I for one believe CILTeP/Lions Mane (and now possibly Reishi) to be a FAR superior combination to even the strongest racetams. That is saying a lot for me. If it ends in 'tam I have had a love affair with it that is for sure. Ask Isochroma...we used to trade tips (In fact I am surprised he hasn't taken to CILTeP like I have. Too focused on his current experiments would be my guess. Freaking 'roids and spice (and IRDA-21) destroyed what was left of that man.) However I was at a loss to notice the effect of the Lions Mane until I had been on it for at least 3 months. And it was perhaps 6 months until the effects were easily separated from placebo. I can see that boring mean old Iso to death.

If you want to FEEL your stack, take racetams. If you want to LEARN...use CILTeP and or NGF/BDNF stimulators. I have even found the racetam state to a hindrance to the peak CILTeP effect. Not that I have given up my beloved Oxi. If I am looking to be "on" than Oxiracetam and Phenylpiracetam can hardly be beat. But if you want to watch online courses at double speed then PDE4 inhibition and cAMP are your allies.

Edited by 1337, 25 February 2014 - 03:07 AM.

[RicardoW]

this is slightly of topic but I hope I hope seleukos don't mind.

I must agree there are a lot of basically useless product out (and its a pity because reshi is of exceptional value) there and those suckers below are an excellent examples:

http://www.pharmaceu....org/index3.htm

they claim that they provide the best products on the market and that its scientifically proven (what ever that means). but in fact its complacently useless and that goes for all of there products. even the cordyseps is useless despite the fact that is a mushroom that can be cultivated with excellent results!

reshi other hand is due to its requirements hard to cultivate in a artificial environment and to be hones I don't thing any one has fully succeeded (although some are better than others). consequently all reshi sold by the general supplement suppliers are a huge waste of money!

now to the positive, a ray of light! by it here (It might be available at

amzon as well):

http://activeherb.ne...roducts_id=1018

this is a product or brand (Koda Pharmaceuticals) that are not intended for consumers in general but for practitioners of chines medicine that makes formulas out of the extracts (1:6). and this people knows what good herbs are and cant be fold.

I'm saying this because I think its sad that you don't get the real stuff. and acturly they provide the complete line of herbal extracts from Koda Pharmaceuticals. so have fun i recommend astragalus! its inexpensive as well.

also i used dragonherbs product and its not bad actually. know I'm trying reshi from:

www.rawforestfoods.com

I can get back and say if its good or not if any one is interested.

[Jeoshua]

I for one believe CILTeP/Lions Mane (and now possibly Reishi) to be a FAR superior combination to even the strongest racetams. That is saying a lot for me. If it ends in 'tam I have had a love affair with it that is for sure.

Lion's Mane contains a Kappa Opioid Agonist (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9918390), and as such would increase the activity of PDE. That is actually the opposite effect that CILTEP is attempting to create, in the brain. That increased turnover of cAMP may cause its own breed of effects. It seems from what research that I've done on CILTEP that the effect of the stack fundimentally increases early term protein synthesis independent LTP by increasing the cAMP activity in the neurons, but then inhibits the longer term potentiation from protein synthesis. Something that would increase this would be NGF/BDNF activity, which Lion's Mane certainly does provide.

Do you have any other information that led you to the determination that Lion's Mane + Forskoliin is good for LTP? It certainly does bear some good hallmarks of a profitable avenue of research.

[Sholrak]

I have been using the Reishi (whole mushroom powder) in combination with the Lions Mane. I find the Reishi to be sedating though and I am forced to only take it right before bed. That is the best time for NGF stimulation anyway though so it works out just fine.

As far as effect, I have been at this for a little over a year with this source/combination and I can say for sure it has made a difference. Better recall and more focus for sure. Super saturated racetam-like visual effects are present (oh yeah!!) as well.

When combined with CILTeP and Phenylpiracetam after a while you get a bit of a "mad scientist"/crazy feeling...Not high-energy mania, but more of a "hyperthreading" feeling. Not anxiety per say but it is an interestingly uncomfortable sensation for sure. Like you are making connections and recalling data ALMOST too quickly for comfort. This effect is highly exaggerated if one doses too high or redoses during the day. I have also begun to loathe sleep, as the waste of time it is. I understand the need and the utility of good sleep but the irritation persists. There are times when even urination can seem like a hardly justifiable diversion

At the end of the day, I often remark to my partner that I feel "nuts". Not unpleasant enough to be avoided, but I certainly look and feel strange.

I for one believe CILTeP/Lions Mane (and now possibly Reishi) to be a FAR superior combination to even the strongest racetams. That is saying a lot for me. If it ends in 'tam I have had a love affair with it that is for sure. Ask Isochroma...we used to trade tips (In fact I am surprised he hasn't taken to CILTeP like I have. Too focused on his current experiments would be my guess. Freaking 'roids and spice (and IRDA-21) destroyed what was left of that man.) However I was at a loss to notice the effect of the Lions Mane until I had been on it for at least 3 months. And it was perhaps 6 months until the effects were easily separated from placebo. I can see that boring mean old Iso to death.

If you want to FEEL your stack, take racetams. If you want to LEARN...use CILTeP and or NGF/BDNF stimulators. I have even found the racetam state to a hindrance to the peak CILTeP effect. Not that I have given up my beloved Oxi. If I am looking to be "on" than Oxiracetam and Phenylpiracetam can hardly be beat. But if you want to watch online courses at double speed then PDE4 inhibition and cAMP are your allies.

You are soo right. I have never tried Ciltep + a NGF/BDNF/etc enhancer except for the ALCAR included in the Ciltep. Hopefully, I will be able, in a few days to perform the experiment I'm seeking for long time: Ciltep + Cerebrolysin! It may sound silly, but I've actually found these two "meds" the most revolutionary in the learning and nootropic in general of what I've tried. I can't even imagine how that would feel but I'm sure I'm gonna perform a nice study/exams month.

My theory is quite simplist and based on intuition. If the Ciltep can power up the long-long term memory and Cerebrolysin powers up the short or working memory, it should mean these two thogether may be the best mind strenghtening combo of all. I'm excited to try these two together

I must try Lion's Mane too one day. It looks like a Cerebrolysin alternative and cheaper and oral, although a little weaker.

Edited by Sholrak, 25 February 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[seleukos]

I have been using the Reishi (whole mushroom powder) in combination with the Lions Mane. I find the Reishi to be sedating though and I am forced to only take it right before bed. That is the best time for NGF stimulation anyway though so it works out just fine.

As far as effect, I have been at this for a little over a year with this source/combination and I can say for sure it has made a difference. Better recall and more focus for sure. Super saturated racetam-like visual effects are present (oh yeah!!) as well.

When combined with CILTeP and Phenylpiracetam after a while you get a bit of a "mad scientist"/crazy feeling...Not high-energy mania, but more of a "hyperthreading" feeling. Not anxiety per say but it is an interestingly uncomfortable sensation for sure. Like you are making connections and recalling data ALMOST too quickly for comfort. This effect is highly exaggerated if one doses too high or redoses during the day. I have also begun to loathe sleep, as the waste of time it is. I understand the need and the utility of good sleep but the irritation persists. There are times when even urination can seem like a hardly justifiable diversion

At the end of the day, I often remark to my partner that I feel "nuts". Not unpleasant enough to be avoided, but I certainly look and feel strange.

I for one believe CILTeP/Lions Mane (and now possibly Reishi) to be a FAR superior combination to even the strongest racetams. That is saying a lot for me. If it ends in 'tam I have had a love affair with it that is for sure. Ask Isochroma...we used to trade tips (In fact I am surprised he hasn't taken to CILTeP like I have. Too focused on his current experiments would be my guess. Freaking 'roids and spice (and IRDA-21) destroyed what was left of that man.) However I was at a loss to notice the effect of the Lions Mane until I had been on it for at least 3 months. And it was perhaps 6 months until the effects were easily separated from placebo. I can see that boring mean old Iso to death.

If you want to FEEL your stack, take racetams. If you want to LEARN...use CILTeP and or NGF/BDNF stimulators. I have even found the racetam state to a hindrance to the peak CILTeP effect. Not that I have given up my beloved Oxi. If I am looking to be "on" than Oxiracetam and Phenylpiracetam can hardly be beat. But if you want to watch online courses at double speed then PDE4 inhibition and cAMP are your allies.

You are soo right. I have never tried Ciltep + a NGF/BDNF/etc enhancer except for the ALCAR included in the Ciltep. Hopefully, I will be able, in a few days to perform the experiment I'm seeking for long time: Ciltep + Cerebrolysin! It may sound silly, but I've actually found these two "meds" the most revolutionary in the learning and nootropic in general of what I've tried. I can't even imagine how that would feel but I'm sure I'm gonna perform a nice study/exams month.

My theory is quite simplist and based on intuition. If the Ciltep can power up the long-long term memory and Cerebrolysin powers up the short or working memory, it should mean these two thogether may be the best mind strenghtening combo of all. I'm excited to try these two together

I must try Lion's Mane too one day. It looks like a Cerebrolysin alternative and cheaper and oral, although a little weaker.

What about Reishi apropos of the study I posted?

[1337]

Just as an Update:

Further experimentation has made it clear to me that the CILTeP effect is somewhat dampened by concurrent administration of Lions Mane. And there is ZERO doubt that peak CILTeP effects are dampened in myself with the co-administration of racetams.

Cambridge Brain Sciences testing confirms this.

I have recently begun to cycle the CILTeP with my usual racetam cocktail, 5 days CILTeP, two days Piracetam/Oxiracetam or perhaps Phenylpiracetam. This seems like the best of both worlds for the time being.

I had been on the Lions Mane since long before the CILTeP and had not given much thought to its discontinuation; but upon further reflection there has been some variability in my responses to the CILTeP that is not accounted for in other experiments.

The benefits of the lions mane are undeniable, in myself at least, as are those of the CILTeP stack. They are going to have to find a way to play nicely together

AM dosing with Standard CILTeP stack
Early PM dosing with Lions Mane
PM dosing with Lions Mane and Reishi

We'll see how that works...

[Nootropic Milk Hotel]

I have been taking about 2 grams of Reishi daily for several weeks, and it has more noticeable positive effects than Lion's Mane, which I have been taking continuously for a year. It feels mildly sedative (it is a benzodiazepine receptor agonist); not to a distracting degree. I feel subjectively "cleaner" on this stuff, and I would recommend it over Lion's Mane for most people. Reishi has a very impressive array of apparent benefits.

[ron45]

It is my understanding that Lion's Mane is in the myelination business, [not sure if that's really a term] but it is supposed to repair myelin sheaths that protect neurons and possible other constituents of the synaptic area. I have been taking it for two weeks maybe. I was not aware that we should feel the results of that repair. Especially if we are taking things you do feel. I like the above poster's distinction between a learning stack and a feeling stack. I am a fan of both and hope they are not mutually exclusive. This has been a very informative thread. Thanks to all who post here.

Ron

[ron45]

Hello fellow seekers. So it that it? There is nothing more to say on the subject of neurite growth. What about did the neurites go on to become neurons and axons? That would be good to know.

What about some people at Nobel prize headquarters thinking that the scientist who discovered lion's mane's ability to cross the brain barrier and induce myelin repair should and did receive a the nobel prize in his field that year?

I don't sell lion's mane, and I don't have any interest in it being more popular. But are we supposed to ignore lion's mane and go running over to the reishi store because of some comments in a thread saying essentially, lions mane is not flashy. I haven't yet seen anything about lions mane not repairing myelin sheaths in brains.

I may even be one of the one's running to the reishi store if it's found that lion's mane is useless….. but there's these guys in Sweden I think, who thought lion's mane was pretty cool for a while there.

I did not learn from wading thru parts of that abstract that the reishi did a better job of myelin repair. But it's possible, I don't always read abstracts with enough comprehension to come away with the big picture. Did any of you? It was my understanding that these mushrooms were doing something unrelated to myelin repair. But again I'm just a guy who want's to spend his money on useful useful substances for enhancing brain and body performance.

That would be a good reason to jump on the reishi rush wagon. So I for one would like to know more. I'm not saying you guys are wrong about lions mane I just would like to know more. Hence the questions. I hope there is more to come on these subjects.

Ron

[1337]

Lions Mane is far from useless. A few weeks experimentation usually will make that clear.
Lions mane has the added benifit of not affecting the blood so much. Too much Reishi can very clearly be a bad thing. I have however consumed the extracted equivalent of over 120g of mushrooms a day for over a week with no ill effect.

Neurochemical testing aside, empirical evidence backs up the efficacy of lions mane.

I think both have their place

[1337]

I meant to say "120g equivalent of LIONS MANE MUSHROOMS." Sorry for the ambiguity.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Which of the mushrooms enhance ngf production/release/activity the most? I don't care about one effect of ngf, I care about the totality of effects of ngf. I want to increase ngf itself.

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

What does everyone think of alcohol based tinctures of Lion's Mane and Reishi? I have some made at a 1:2 ratio, bought from here: http://herbies-herbs.com. Most herbalists use a 1:5 ratio. Anyone know if extracts are better than powder?

[Oakman]

I've formulated, encapsulated in "000" vegie caps, this mix. For the last 10 days, pre-bedtime, I've taken 2-3 caps. I've noticed better, deeper sleep, less bathroom breaks, and some dream enhancement, plus a sharp, fully awake feeling in the morning upon arising.

 

 

 

PRODUCT              SOURCE                                                      DESCRIPTION                                                               RATIO

Lion's Mane            Organic Mushroom Nutrition                         Hericfiumerinaceus, mycelial Biomass & fruit body              20

Red Reishi**           Hangzhou JohncanBio-Technology Co, Ltd. Ganoderma lucidum shell-broken spore powder                  20

Schisandra              Bulk Supplementa                                         3% Rosavin, 3% Salidrosides                                                9

Rhodiola Rosea       Bulk Supplementa                                        100% pure powder                                                                 8

Capsicum                Solaray                                                          100,000 heat-unit Cayenne                                                   8

Clove                                                                                              organic powder                                                                     3

 

** The spores are of very significant medicinal and tonic value, very rich in triterpenes. The spores are far more potent

than even the fruiting body, and are are widely used in cancer therapeutics and longevity programs.

Edited by Oakman, 06 July 2017 - 01:50 PM.

[Oakman]

Really cool brain detail and what we'd like to encourage growth in...

 

"The Human Brain in Stunning Detail"

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

 Can someone help me out understanding the results of this study https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26058418
 

Neurometabolic Effect of Altaian Fungus Ganoderma lucidum (Reishi Mushroom) in Rats Under Moderate Alcohol Consumption.

Shevelev OB1, Akulov AE1, Dotsenko AS2, Kontsevaya GV1, Zolotykh MA2, Gerlinskaya LA1, Veprev SG1, Goryachkovskaya TN1, Zhukova NA3, Kolchanov NA1,3, Pel'tek SE1, Moshkin MP1,2,4.

Author information

 

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

The medications produced from natural products are widely used as prophylactics for sickness induced by alcohol consumption. One such prophylactic is produced from the Reishi mushroom, Ganoderma lucidum. Because of the antioxidant properties of these preparations, we expect neuroprotective prophylactic effects of Reishi-based medications in alcohol-treated animals.

METHODS:

The Reishi ® suspension was produced as water extract from Altaian mushrooms. Sprague-Dawley male rats were separated into the following 3 experimental groups: Group A + R received R (6 days per week) starting 1 week before alcohol exposure, and during the next 3 weeks, they received both R and alcohol; group A received alcohol; and group C received water. At the end of experiment, we determined the metabolic profile using proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy ((1) H MRS) of the brain cortex and phosphorus magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the liver. Additionally, the blood cells were collected, and the serum biochemistry and liver histology were performed after euthanasia.

RESULTS:

Partial least squares discriminant analysis processing of the brain (1) H MRS gave 2 axes, the Y1 axis positively correlated with the level of taurine and negatively correlated with the level of lactate, and the Y2 axis positively correlated with the content of GABA and glycine and negatively correlated with the sum of the excitatory neurotransmitters, glutamate and glutamine. The Y1 values reflecting the brain energetics for the A + R group exceeded the corresponding values for groups C and A. The maximal level of Y2 reflecting the prevalence of inhibitory metabolites in the brain was observed in the rats exposed to alcohol. Moderate alcohol consumption did not cause significant pathological changes in the livers of the experimental animals. However, 20 days of alcohol consumption significantly increased the number of binuclear hepatocytes compared to the control. This effect was mitigated in the rats that received the Reishi extract.

CONCLUSIONS:

Regular administration of the Reishi suspension improved the energy supply to the brain cortex and decreased the prevalence of inhibitory neurotransmitters that are characteristic of alcohol consumption. The alcohol-induced increase in liver proliferation was significantly suppressed by regular administration of the G. lucidum water suspension."


.... positively correlated with GABA and negatively with glutamate, but then the conclusion is that Reishi decreased the prevalance of inhibitory nts (I'm assuming GABA?). Sorry I suck at science and am probably just reading it wrong. 

 

[airplanepeanuts]

Your first highlighted part just states what the two the axes measure without implying how the groups score on those.

[normalizing]

ive never noticed GABA influence from reishi after alcohol use problems. i didnt notice any improvement in any way. perhaps as most studies it just works on rats and maybe the dose equivalent to humans is mega high as expected

[chris85]

The only problem with reishi is it can give you too much energy when taken over several weeks. I started waking up in the middle of the night after 3 weeks when I was taking 2g in the morning.

[normalizing]

could be to other things you are taking. reishi is known to be more sedative like than energy booster hence why people take it before bed time and report dizzyness during the day. perhaps thats why one of the products that was hot back then offering coffee with reishi failed, coffee and reishi work opposite of each other

[chris85]

Ah I see, no I wasn't taking anything else at the time. I have the same problem with quite a few things even like melatonin and magnesium they cause insomnia because my nervous system is very sensitive you see. Even ashwagandha starts interfering with sleep for me at certain doses. Low doses of adaptogens in the morning combined with the nervines morning and evening works well for me. Just about all the adaptogens have a stimulating as well as sedating property, the nervines just sedate.