38 replies to this topic

[Galaxyshock]

And benzos aren't?

 

Good point, but I think they are lesser evil given the information we have these days. Something like Codeine for pain or something. GHB I think has a sneaky nature, people report "God-like" euphorias from the stuff and think it's a free rewarding lunch until shit hits the fan really badly. Calling it a "sleep supplement" is like calling benzos candy. I mean Phenibut is still a "supplement" in the US I believe, even though it puts people into withdrawals that even cocktails of tranquilizers don't treat.

[Daniel Cooper]

Good point, but I think they are lesser evil given the information we have these days. Something like Codeine for pain or something. GHB I think has a sneaky nature, people report "God-like" euphorias from the stuff and think it's a free rewarding lunch until shit hits the fan really badly. Calling it a "sleep supplement" is like calling benzos candy. I mean Phenibut is still a "supplement" in the US I believe, even though it puts people into withdrawals that even cocktails of tranquilizers don't treat.

 

I'm going to disagree with you. Benzos are notorious for difficult and protracted withdrawals. And doctors have in the past passed them out like candy (they are tightening up now). 

 

There are people that suffer years long withdrawal issues with benzos. You don't even get that with heroin. Maybe people suffer those sorts of withdrawal syndromes with GHB, but I haven't heard of them.

 

I know people that have spent years unsuccessfully trying to get off benzos and who have ended up resigning themselves to the fact they will be on these drugs for the rest of their life. Frankly, I think they are worse than any opioid with any sort of chronic use.

[Galaxyshock]

I'm going to disagree with you. Benzos are notorious for difficult and protracted withdrawals. And doctors have in the past passed them out like candy (they are tightening up now). 

 

There are people that suffer years long withdrawal issues with benzos. You don't even get that with heroin. Maybe people suffer those sorts of withdrawal syndromes with GHB, but I haven't heard of them.

 

I know people that have spent years unsuccessfully trying to get off benzos and who have ended up resigning themselves to the fact they will be on these drugs for the rest of their life. Frankly, I think they are worse than any opioid with any sort of chronic use.

 

My view on benzos is perhaps "watered down" due to my personal experience with them that's true. But heroin is something that can easily kill you, and GHB withdrawal according to some reports can make you wish you were dead. Some people are on opioid replacement therapy programs seemingly for years if not forever. But yeah, best to stay away from both benzos and GHB unless it's absolutely necessary. Just made an excessively snappish point that GHB is no good for sleep either in a thread talking about "nootropics for sleep quality". 

[Daniel Cooper]

Opioids can definitely cause death in high acute doses. Benzos on the other hand are hard to kill yourself on, but are well known to make you wish you were dead if you try to get off them.

 

GHB back when it was on the market as a supplement put dozens of people in the hospital after they consumed "tablespoons" of the stuff. But if you take enough it will probably kill you as well.

 

However, GHB is probably fine used occasionally for sleep in reasonable doses.

 

I'm of the opinion that screwing around with GABA A receptors is generally a bad idea. Benzos are normally strong positive allosteric modulators of the GABA A receptor at various sites. Occasionally they can either be strong or weak agonists of that receptor as well.

 

GHB primarily acts on the GHB receptor but is also a weak agonist at GABA B. My suspicion is that this is inherently less risky than acting as a PAM at GABA A. But, I'll admit that I don't have a lot to back that up with other than a long history of drugs that work on GABA A being enormously problematic - barbiturates, benzodiazepines, and z-drugs in particular.  

 

As I've said numerous times - chronically taking almost any drug that works on neurotransmitter systems is probably a fool's errand due to the drive to homeostasis and the resulting tolerance. But put an exclamation point on that for anything that works on GABA A.

[Galaxyshock]

However, GHB is probably fine used occasionally for sleep in reasonable doses.

 

What is reasonable dose? In low doses it's neurotoxic and in higher doses recreational/addictive. 

 

I think our personal experiences reflect in our viewpoints on GABA-A and GABA-B drugs. You, and people you know, have had terrible experiences coming off benzos/z-drugs whereas I've done my own damage with GABA-B drug, Phenibut. 

 

Maybe ScienceGuy was right leaving the GABA-system alone - when it comes to man-made chemicals.

[gamesguru]

The only things more delicate than GABA are dopamine and glutamate.  And that's not a fact.  That only reflects our ignorance of the potentially vast array of undiscovered receptor systems.

 

No one here wants to take magnesium or tryptophan, natural substances with proven benefits.  Magnesium decreases sleep latency and improves multiple other measures of sleep quality.  Even Kava reduces sleep latency and improves some measures of sleep.  Tryptophan gets converted to serotonin and then to melatonin (both great for sleep) in the body and is safer on heart valves than 5-HTP, but too much of it can cause irritability in the mornings; it's best to use it on an as-needed basis.  The absence of stimulating triggers before bed (loud music, reading stressful material, lights, exercise, stimulant supplements/medications) is hugely important.  I have a bedtime/dark mode/nightlight timer on my computers and phones to help reduce blue light exposure late in the day.  I also like the 100% light-blocking curtains in my bedroom!  There are lots of ways to improve sleep.  It likely also helps to use bright light therapy early in the morning and exercise in the afternoon.

 

GHB's short duration of action also makes it a poor candidate for therapeutic use.  However, I do feel it's safer than benzos.  I would agree with that.  Just like Phenibut, GHB is likely safer than benzos or alcohol when used regularly.  But GHB, as far as I've heard, occupies that weird chemical-feeling niche of not being as "good" as alcohol without being as safe as Kava.

 

The effect of magnesium supplementation on primary insomnia in elderly: A double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial - PMC

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3703169/

 

Supplementation of magnesium appears to improve subjective measures of insomnia such as ISI score, sleep efficiency, sleep time and sleep onset latency, early morning awakening, and likewise, insomnia objective measures such as concentration of serum renin, melatonin, and serum cortisol, in elderly people.

 

Effects of kava-kava extract on the sleep-wake cycle in sleep-disturbed rats - PubMed

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/15700178/

 

A significant shortening of the sleep latency in sleep-disturbed rats was observed following the administration of kava-kava extract at a dose of 300 mg/kg, while no effects were observed on the total waking and non-REM sleep time.

 

Kava-kava extract showed a significant increase in delta activity during non-REM sleep in sleep-disturbed rats.

 

 

[Daniel Cooper]

 

The only things more delicate than GABA are dopamine and glutamate.  And that's not a fact.  That only reflects our ignorance of the potentially vast array of undiscovered receptor systems.

 

No one here wants to take magnesium or tryptophan, natural substances with proven benefits.  Magnesium decreases sleep latency and improves multiple other measures of sleep quality.  Even Kava reduces sleep latency and improves some measures of sleep.  Tryptophan gets converted to serotonin and then to melatonin (both great for sleep) in the body and is safer on heart valves than 5-HTP, but too much of it can cause irritability in the mornings; it's best to use it on an as-needed basis.  The absence of stimulating triggers before bed (loud music, reading stressful material, lights, exercise, stimulant supplements/medications) is hugely important.  I have a bedtime/dark mode/nightlight timer on my computers and phones to help reduce blue light exposure late in the day.  I also like the 100% light-blocking curtains in my bedroom!  There are lots of ways to improve sleep.  It likely also helps to use bright light therapy early in the morning and exercise in the afternoon.

 

GHB's short duration of action also makes it a poor candidate for therapeutic use.  However, I do feel it's safer than benzos.  I would agree with that.  Just like Phenibut, GHB is likely safer than benzos or alcohol when used regularly.  But GHB, as far as I've heard, occupies that weird chemical-feeling niche of not being as "good" as alcohol without being as safe as Kava.

 

 

 

 

Believe me, I've tried every natural substance known to man. Neither magnesium or tryptophan do a thing for me.

 

I'm an unfortunate bastard that was prescribed benzodiazepines after an automobile accident created some chronic pain that made sleep almost impossible. After many years the chronic injury resolved and I tapered and discontinued the benzo. My sleep never returned to normal even many years later. The benzo use seems to have created some long lasting (perhaps permanent) changes that have created problems with sleep and chronic muscle spasms. Might be an epigenetic mechanism which we've discussed in other threads.

 

Something that could help induce sleep used infrequently when I really get in a bad state that also doesn't impact GABA A receptors would be of use to me I think. Hence the interest in GHB. But of course, anything that actually works if used frequently is likely to cause problems.

[hotnerds26]

Taking GHB for sleep is like taking heroin as cough medicine. It will not end well.

 

It's a crazy highly addictive and purely recreational drug that puts you on a flip-flopping roller coaster every 3 hours, where you shift between psychotic panic attacks, then redosing, then a stimulant-alike buzz, then being extremely sedated and then sleep-comatose for 1-2 hours.

 

It's like a supercharged version of alcohol and benzos on 5x speedup, and the withdrawal is exactly the same as well in reverse. Worse than alcohol, worse than benzos. Just totally psychotic anxiety that escalates into delirium which feels like having indefinite panic attacks while tripping on nightshades and having Alzheimer's. But on the flipside it tends to be much shorter.

 

Think of alcohol as smoking a cigarette, then GHB is like smoking crack.

[fall]

Opioids can definitely cause death in high acute doses. Benzos on the other hand are hard to kill yourself on, but are well known to make you wish you were dead if you try to get off them.

GHB back when it was on the market as a supplement put dozens of people in the hospital after they consumed "tablespoons" of the stuff. But if you take enough it will probably kill you as well.

However, GHB is probably fine used occasionally for sleep in reasonable doses.

I'm of the opinion that screwing around with GABA A receptors is generally a bad idea. Benzos are normally strong positive allosteric modulators of the GABA A receptor at various sites. Occasionally they can either be strong or weak agonists of that receptor as well.

GHB primarily acts on the GHB receptor but is also a weak agonist at GABA B. My suspicion is that this is inherently less risky than acting as a PAM at GABA A. But, I'll admit that I don't have a lot to back that up with other than a long history of drugs that work on GABA A being enormously problematic - barbiturates, benzodiazepines, and z-drugs in particular.

As I've said numerous times - chronically taking almost any drug that works on neurotransmitter systems is probably a fool's errand due to the drive to homeostasis and the resulting tolerance. But put an exclamation point on that for anything that works on GABA A.

Benzos IMO are the exact opposite- very easy to kill yourself on, for so many reasons.
Benzos are notoriously known to cause disinhibited behavior and is associated engaging in criminal and otherwise risky behaviors. People prescribed benzos are often times also prescribed other meds as well. People using benzos not prescribed often times use other illicit substances. People in either one of those to categories as well as those who only use benzos may also drink alcohol. What does matter is that benzos+other prescribed depressant, benzos+illicit depressant, or benzo+alcohol can suppress breathing to the point of death. Several of my friends past away in this manner (far too young.) Additionally, reported cases of polydrug OD deaths very often show presence of benzos in the system.

With that said, benzos are usually safe and benefits can easily outweigh the risks if used wisely.

I would advice against benzo as a sleep-aid mostly due to side-effects and to broad effects which is really unnecessary when all you need is to target sleep. Both short and long-term memory impairment was considerate in my case. People with severe anxiety, PTSD, and muscle problems may be better suited for benzos. The addiction liability is real, however, often times overstated. I have used and abused benzos and never had an issue to stop cold turkey. I believe certain populations who depend on this type of drug find it more addictive YMMV