63 replies to this topic

[agwoodliffe]

This is in response both to the ''Herbal Amphetamine Alternatives'' post and my own post on ''Inositol-the anti introvert drug''.

I want to clarify some findings. But first I must say that I am a little hesitant on this subject as I have no idea as to the potential of these herbs to cause addiction or psychotic-like symptoms.

2 herbs have been shown to enhance or augment the release of dopamine in various regions of the brain. This is NOT related to natural DRI's (Fructus Akebiae, Chaenomeles Speciosa). The herbs are: Salvia Miltiorrhiza, and Thunbergia Laurifolia.

Salvia Miltiorrhiza:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16521109
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16475004

Thunbergia Laurifolia:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23724461
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12165394
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16001121

Both herbs appear to increase overall 'signal intensity' in various brain regions, including the nucleus accumbens. Remember there was an earlier post which documented that dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens is necessary for social reward.
What appears promising about these herbs is that, in addition to their effects on dopamine, they are also quite potent antioxidants and toxin-antidotes. Also, although they appear to mimic cocaine/amphetamine to some degree, they take longer to have an effect, or have a longer-more prolonged release time. This suggests that may not have the same risk as synthetic forms.

So for treatment-resistant cases of behavioural inhibition, or even for street-drug stimulant addiction, these herbs may be a very promising treatment.

Open to discussion.

Edited by agwoodliffe, 13 March 2014 - 12:05 AM.

[Sciencyst]

Awesome. So long as they have mininal effects with norepinephrine

[truboy]

Anybody tried "Thunbergia Laurifolia"?

So far i've read only one experience by Flex:

So i´ve allready have Thunbergia laurifolia http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16001121 (causes strangely an increase in depression to me, but not 1 1/2 years ago! )

[Strelok]

If increased dopamine was my goal, I'd probably first seek substances to upregulated dopamine receptors (Uridine stack, e.g.) and then try to naturally increased dopamine levels (resistance exercise, no-fap, etc.).

[OneScrewLoose]

I have never seen any convincing evidence that no-fap/not masturbating, increases dopamine levels. Everything I've seen relating to no-fap seems to be broscience at its worst.

[Strelok]

I have never seen any convincing evidence that no-fap/not masturbating, increases dopamine levels. Everything I've seen relating to no-fap seems to be broscience at its worst.

I agree that there isn't any convincing evidence, i.e. scientific studies. Times that I have tried it, I noticed what seemed to be increased dopamine. Whether it actually increases dopamine, or upregulates receptors, or whatever, I don't know. But the effects are very similar to enhanced function of the dopamine system, IMO.

But just like some medications/supplements/etc. don't work for some people, that only way to find out if it affects you positively is to test it out yourself.

[Kevnzworld]

Deprenyl

[OneScrewLoose]

I tried it for a couple months and I saw no change in any aspects of myself related to dopamine. I am convinced that it is largely placebo for those who have had success. That is to say, it works, but if you were equally convinced that doing 20 jumping jacks per day would increase dopamine, that would work just as well.

Most people I've seen in forums who do no fap are looking for a shortcut to being an alpha male, and use studies correlating higher density of certain receptors (usually D2) in alpha primates to imply causation. They then use other studies "showing" that not wanking increase levels of these receptors. Even if it were true, causation in that direction has not been established. But I can see it working to some degree as a means of suppressing social anxiety (Hey, this must be working and I'm more outgoing, therefore I will be more outgoing). But once again this would be a placebo mediated response, and not a direct result of a change in certain receptor density cause you're keeping your hand off your dick.

Most of the broscience seems to come from a website called yourbrainonporn.com. Just check out any of their articles; almost everyone of them is rife with dubious extrapolation, poor establishment of causality, and a lack of sources for many of their claims.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 17 March 2014 - 09:42 PM.

[Flex]

Anybody tried "Thunbergia Laurifolia"?

So far i've read only one experience by Flex:

So i´ve allready have Thunbergia laurifolia http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16001121 (causes strangely an increase in depression to me, but not 1 1/2 years ago! )

1 1/2 years ago I didnt noticed any great effects, exept a little foggy state after 1-2 hours.
So, unfortunaetly it didnt work for me, but everybody reacts different. I would be glad to hear about your experiences.

[BioFreak]

Awesome. So long as they have mininal effects with norepinephrine

I wish they did. There are no plants I know that have an effect on dopamine and norephinephrine, but not ephinephrine. Kind of a lack of natural ritalin.

[normalizing]

I have never seen any convincing evidence that no-fap/not masturbating, increases dopamine levels. Everything I've seen relating to no-fap seems to be broscience at its worst.

what they refer to as dopamine high is actually high testosterone. your testosterone goes real high when you excercise regularly, do not have sex (or fap) but its not the dopamine. now, both of those in high enough doses feel similar so its understanding people confuse them. for example, i used to test high for dopamine when i was doing substances causing its rise and in seperate times i was tested with high testosterone and the high felt so similar, i couldnt be sure if its dopamine or testosterone doing it. but in seperate times as i said, i had just one or the other high and i was tested for it so i do know i had it high. now, the biggest kick is when you have both of them high at the same time! thats the rush and the glory, baby

[Sciencyst]

Well these aren't releasing agents but rather dopamine reuptake inhibitors:

• Psoralea corylifolia (also MAO-B inhibition)
  
  • Examine article: http://examine.com/s...ea corylifolia/
  • Petroleum extracts of the fruits of Psoralea (Fructus Psoraleae) have been found to be able to prevent dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake in neurons when incubated at 1-10ug/mL via inhibiting transporters, with lesser efficacy being apparent with water and ethanolic extracts; serotonin and GABA uptake being unaffected up to 100ug/mL.^[40] The IC₅₀ values of the petroleum extract were found to be 0.62ug/mL for dopamine and 0.79ug/mL for noradrenaline, with 100ug/mL being as effective as the active controls GBR12,935 (dopamine) at the same concentration and desipramine (noradrenaline) at 1ug/mL, underperforming at the same concentration.^[40] The isolated bioactive known as Delta-3,2-hydroxybakuchiol has been noted to act as a catecholamine reuptake inhibitor in vitro^[41] with IC₅₀ values in inhibiting the dopamine and noradrenaline transporters of 0.19ug/mL (190ng/mL) and 0.31ug/mL (310ng/mL) respectively.^[26] Injections of isolated Delta-3,2-hydroxybakuchiol was able to reduce dopamine and noradrenaline uptake in a dose-dependent manner in rats, with 16.32-48.96mg/kg being as effective in inhibiting dopamine uptake as 9.75mg/kg Vanoxerine and 16.32mg/kg being as effective at inhibiting noradrenaline reputake as 6.6mg/kg Desipramine (with 48.96mg/kg outperforming Desipramine).^[26]
    Aside from bakuchiol and Delta-3,2-hydroxybakuchiol, Hydroxybakuchiol and Delta-1,2-hydroxybakuchiol also have catecholamine reputake potential in vitro.^[26][40][41]
    After injections of the petroleum extract of Fructus Psoraleae at 20, 200, and 500mg/kg, spontaneous locomotion was increased in a dose-dependent manner over 105 minutes (trending to decline) with no dose being more effective than 10mg/kg cocaine; all locomotion was abolished with reserpine, establishing that they were mediated by monoamines.^[40]
    
    

    The Bakuchiol class of molecules appear to be catecholamine (dopamine and noradrenaline) reuptake inhibitors, with fairly high potencies (in the low micromolar and high nanomolar range). Although no oral studies exist, injections of either isolated Bakuchiols of a petroleum ether extract of the plant appear to have excitatory properties in rodents

    One study screening plant sources of MAO-B inhibitors noted that Psoralea was one of four (out of 905 plants) to have potential MAO-B inhibitory potential with an IC₅₀ below 70mcg/mL, alongside Phellodendron amurense, Licorice Root, and Cyamopsis psoralioides.^[42] This has been noted in vivo following oral ingestion of 30-50mg/kg furanocoumarins from Psoralea Corylifolia, where MAO-A and MAO-B activity was inhibited with more activity on MAO-B (47-63%) relative to MAO-A (15-47%).^[43]Potential Monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibiting potential, with preference for MAO-B; this may also contribute to catecholaminergic effects via reducing their rate of breakdown (causing a relative spike)
• Chaenomeles speciosa (flowering quince)
  
  • Study showing DRI effects: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18485464
  • Review of chemistry and pharmacology: http://www.spandidos...2?text=fulltext

This guy says they work: http://herbs.mxf.yuk...lea-corylifolia

Time for some sourcery! I will gladly try these guys out and report back.

Edited by katuskoti, 20 March 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[normalizing]

can you try Fructus psoraleæ and report back. seems interesting but it mentions of IV route only ? cant it be orally consumed ? also i dont like a petrolium based extract.....

btw i cant find any of those being sold ANYWHERE, HELP!

[Sciencyst]

I am not going to inject it though. Worst I will do is sublingual. If you want someone to inject it go over to bluelight... they would be happy to test it for you :P

The herbs can be found on amazon, with unknown quality.. Also on alibaba (yeah right!) and some questionable chinese suppliers.

I think these guys deserve threads of their own...

[Saffron]

ill have to look into the plants you posted, but as far as i know there is no natural dopamineric except for cocaine in coca leaves, which they of course banned.. and opioids duch as the kratom tree, which they are starting to ban. Remember, anything that works will be banned, anything that is bunk, "they" will either allow or promote....

and also things like Synephrine are selective toward adrenaline and have lower affinity for dopamine

The problem i have with abstracts and studies is that "things are said to be things" without specifying how strong. For example lets say Ginseng increases dopamine a thousand times less than cocaine does, then everyone will just run around saying "Ginseng increases dopamine"

Its sort of like the people who say exercise helps increase endorphins when it really doesnt, has the same effect as about 1/20th of one vicodin pill you culd shave of with a razor blade. Lots of supplements and things like exercise and meditation are said to have an impact on something, but the impact is so low it doesnt reduce pain & suffering at all.

need IC50 values & stuff like that.

[normalizing]

I am not going to inject it though. Worst I will do is sublingual. If you want someone to inject it go over to bluelight... they would be happy to test it for you :P

The herbs can be found on amazon, with unknown quality.. Also on alibaba (yeah right!) and some questionable chinese suppliers.

I think these guys deserve threads of their own...

fuck bluelight. they ban temporary for years now over the biggest bullshit there is. ill argue with someone, banned. ill ask a question, banned. ill rejoin after a ban, another ban claiming im evading wtf. as if i care to envade a ban on a forum that I RARELY EVEN VISIT FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS and i have been member there for 8 years and to this day ZERO HELP.

but back to topic, no i could not find them on amazon. i found some weird jing jong zan pan w/e chinese names supplements that costs a dozen i dont think those are good sources. i was hoping for poweders with actual scientific plant name on them.

[Sciencyst]

ill have to look into the plants you posted, but as far as i know there is no natural dopamineric except for cocaine in coca leaves, which they of course banned.. and opioids duch as the kratom tree, which they are starting to ban. Remember, anything that works will be banned, anything that is bunk, "they" will either allow or promote....

and also things like Synephrine are selective toward adrenaline and have lower affinity for dopamine

The problem i have with abstracts and studies is that "things are said to be things" without specifying how strong. For example lets say Ginseng increases dopamine a thousand times less than cocaine does, then everyone will just run around saying "Ginseng increases dopamine"

Its sort of like the people who say exercise helps increase endorphins when it really doesnt, has the same effect as about 1/20th of one vicodin pill you culd shave of with a razor blade. Lots of supplements and things like exercise and meditation are said to have an impact on something, but the impact is so low it doesnt reduce pain & suffering at all.

need IC50 values & stuff like that.

I completely agree. IC50 and especially specific binding affinities would be extremely nice. Until then the anecdotal report says they have some noticeable activity. More experiments need to be done.

[Bateau]

Bumping a very interesting thread

 

Any updates on experiences with these herbs?

[normalizing]

 

I am not going to inject it though. Worst I will do is sublingual. If you want someone to inject it go over to bluelight... they would be happy to test it for you :P

The herbs can be found on amazon, with unknown quality.. Also on alibaba (yeah right!) and some questionable chinese suppliers.

I think these guys deserve threads of their own...

fuck bluelight. they ban temporary for years now over the biggest bullshit there is. ill argue with someone, banned. ill ask a question, banned. ill rejoin after a ban, another ban claiming im evading wtf. as if i care to envade a ban on a forum that I RARELY EVEN VISIT FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS and i have been member there for 8 years and to this day ZERO HELP.

but back to topic, no i could not find them on amazon. i found some weird jing jong zan pan w/e chinese names supplements that costs a dozen i dont think those are good sources. i was hoping for poweders with actual scientific plant name on them.

 

 

that made me laugh. its funny but SOOO TRUE too!
 

[Junk Master]

BTW on the whole "fap" thing, I believe it has been established that T rises for 7 days post, then begins to fall.  So, "withholding," if that is NOT your regular thing, for 7 days WILL cause a slight rise in T.  

 

But in general, I have to agree...pseudo-science.

[Junk Master]

Again, all these herbs are, well, herbs.  How many of you have experienced true "drug-like" effects from herbs?  How much of your perceived effects from these herbs is placebo?

 

Do your first cycle of steroids, and do it correctly and tell me you've EVER had any herb that produces a remotely similar physical, mental, and libidinal effect!

 

Now, I'm NOT endorsing steroid cycles to boost dopamine!!!

 

If I were looking for a "relatively" safe and effective anti-introvert stack, I'd look to low dose Modafinil and 1/2 mg of Clonazepam "as needed," and certainly would not use this on a regular basis.  If that was not effective, I might add a low dose of Lexapro in conjunction with CBT.  I would also encourage regular meditation, at least 12-15 minutes, twice a day, for six weeks BEFORE trying any of those prescription medications.

 

I'f you are going the OTC route, I have had some luck with Myo-inositol, but feel like the effective doses can cause stomach upset.  Also, Resveratrol, after a few days, with the effect quickly falling off, has been effective for me at times. 

 

 

[nowayout]

Introversion is one thing, but reading between the lines here, people are looking for drugs to give them social skills, which is like expecting a drug to teach you math.  Social skills don't come from drugs.  They are learned behaviors - there is no easy shortcut to putting the effort into learning.  

Edited by nowayout, 11 May 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[Bateau]

Again, all these herbs are, well, herbs.  How many of you have experienced true "drug-like" effects from herbs?  How much of your perceived effects from these herbs is placebo?

 

Um, what?

 

Herbs come with potent actives all the time. Ever heard of cannabis? Ephedrine? the Coca plant? Opium? How many different plants have caffeine? coffee, cacao, yerba mate, tea, guarana, multiple species of holly.

 

It's not just recreational plants with significant effects. Go buy $3 of morning glory seeds and trip balls. Go buy some Kutaj and stay up for 2 days straight from the conessine.

 

There are potent actives in herbs everywhere, the idea that the effects will be minimal because it's an "herb" is, for lack of a better word, ignorant.

[OneScrewLoose]

There aren't really that many strong herbs that can directly help with social anxiety, unfortunately. However, there are quite a few that can help with focus. This can be a foundation for your meditation, which itself can go a long way for your social anxiety.

[Hebbeh]

Many pharmaceuticals were originally derived from plants, including:

• Aspirin
• Digoxin (used for congestive heart failure)
• Oral anticoagulants (blood thinners)
• Some antiparasitics (used to kill parasites) (Fugh-Berman, 1997).

In addition, about 25 percent of all pharmaceutical drugs still include some plant-derived constituents.

So it is not surprising that botanical medicines often work in the body in ways that are similar to pharmaceutical drugs.

http://www.takingcha...pharmaceuticals

[niner]

Introversion is one thing, but reading between the lines here, people are looking for drugs to give them social skills, which is like expecting a drug to teach you math.  Social skills don't come from drugs.  They are learned behaviors - there is no easy shortcut to putting the effort into learning.  

 

I don't think it's so much about getting social skills as it is about compensating for social anxiety.  That's a widespread problem. 

[OneScrewLoose]

 

Many pharmaceuticals were originally derived from plants, including:

• Aspirin
• Digoxin (used for congestive heart failure)
• Oral anticoagulants (blood thinners)
• Some antiparasitics (used to kill parasites) (Fugh-Berman, 1997).

In addition, about 25 percent of all pharmaceutical drugs still include some plant-derived constituents.

So it is not surprising that botanical medicines often work in the body in ways that are similar to pharmaceutical drugs.

http://www.takingcha...pharmaceuticals

 

 

That doesn't mean there's an analog for every synthetic substance. The only dopamine releasing agent I can think of is ephedrine, and it's mild in that regard. Even cocaine, a natural substance, is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, not a releasing agent.

[normalizing]

ephedrine is a dopamine releasing agent? you get your facts from where exactly? ephedrine is more like what i felt on high dose raspberry ketones, norepinephrine influx, felt shaky and sea sick.

[nowayout]

 

Introversion is one thing, but reading between the lines here, people are looking for drugs to give them social skills, which is like expecting a drug to teach you math.  Social skills don't come from drugs.  They are learned behaviors - there is no easy shortcut to putting the effort into learning.  

 

I don't think it's so much about getting social skills as it is about compensating for social anxiety.  That's a widespread problem. 

To an extent I agree, but social anxiety can often be related to a lack of social skills.  Also to some extent social anxiety can be unlearned via exposure - in this respect overcoming it is a learned skill, i.e., it is acquired through practice.  Self-confidence in social situations is also largely a learned behavior, which takes practice, attention to appearance (e.g., exercise), personal cultivation (e.g. reading and studying to become able to have interesting things to say), exposure to positive feedback from peers, effort to build stable friendships, and so on.  Pills don't do this for you. 

 

We have a whole generation now who interact largely via their cellphones and have very little real life social skills.  I deal with them every day in my role as an educator.  No pill is going to solve their social problems. 

Edited by nowayout, 12 May 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[Junk Master]

I was specifically referring to herbs that have anxiolytic effects.  I've tried everything from St. John's Wort, Lemon Balm, Green Tea...on and on...

 

I've also tripped "balls" off good ol' shrooms and gobbled enough Mau Hung to pop my eyeballs out of my head (metaphorically speaking, of course.)  Cannabis...sure...unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, it began to GIVE me anxiety attacks.

 

But let's take the Coca plant example.  Chewing leaf with lime doesn't resemble snorting Peruvian Pink in any way (again, thankfully.)