31 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

So I noticed the newsletter gets sent to 12,000 active users and that the price of a KrioRus neuro was $12,000! If we could get everyone on it we could give away 12 neuros a year. I'd like to add the cryonics support subscription to the LC store as a $1 subscription (buyers would be able to buy more than one if they wanted to pay more towards the cryonics support and we've have it be a $12 annual subscription. We could also offer monthly subscriptions starting at $5 and $10 for those wishing to support more. Those enrolled in the subscription would have a tag added to their name similar to what F@H, something like Cryonics Supporter or CryoSupport.

If everyone gave $1 we'd have 12 KrioRus neuro suspensions to give away each year or 4 CI suspensions ($35000ea), or 2 Australian suspensions ($72,000ea), or 1 Alcor neuro 1 ($84000) 1 CI suspension ($32000), and 2 KrioRus neuros (@$14000). I've marked up the costs so we're not taking advantage of the minimum funding, but I'd also hope that the winner would help support the cryoproviders in some way seeing as they are getting something for free. Or we would have a ton of support to throw at Venturism campaigns. We would of course keep the success of the program secret so we could still benefit from individual cryonics support drives and let Venturism raise money from the person's relatives and loved ones as this raises awareness outside of our membership/industry.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 15 April 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[caliban]

Unfortunately, LongeCity is prohibited by Alabama law from holding raffles.

I'm sure there are ways around it but the complexities are a bit daunting.

The support for pooling funds for cryonics hardship cases was identified as the priority in this space.

Moving to 'ideas' forum if there are no objections.

[Droplet]

I'd pray for a giveaway for myself and I know I'd never be able to fund even just a neuro suspension on the wage I'm on. However $1 a month is even less than one go on National Lottery Thunderball so I'd be more than happy to pay that every month to be put into a draw. Even $12 a year is possible.

[YOLF]

I wasn't thinking this would be a raffle. More of an application kind of thing where you could apply for a free cryopreservation. Give some away at our discretion to the needy and hold contests to generate news buzz with the rest and of course always keep a few on hand for emergency cases. I would like for it to put us ahead of the need. I'd rather not worry about not having the funds to suspend people. In a sense it would also be a sort of cryonics slush fund. I know SfV only has $40k for their backup funds, so we could choose to help them out periodically or even choose to help get another cryoprovider up and running, or give away lifetime memberships to CI. The main thing is that it's just a $1 a month, so lots of people will do it and there is strength in numbers.This therefor supports the pooling of funds for cryonics.

I have in the past suggested a raffle, but have since realized that it won't work st present. This is a better idea anyways and it's easy to setup. Just add another item to the store and put a banner for it in the unused ad space rotation, then I'll put the "CryoSupporter" tag or icon in the subscriber's registered user/etc text box. I think I saw something to the effect of a post signature that can be enabled to which we could add tags and such for users.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 17 March 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Stella]

I can imagine a use for such a fund in terms of publicity if you open applications to the public or in providing preservations to important people in the field should they be needed. It will however be hard to decide exactly what happens with each application. How would you go about evaluating them, assuming you get more than the fund could handle (Which, given the unlikelihood of gaining maximum theoretical funding, is very likely)?

[YOLF]

For the charitable cases, I suppose we'd be looking to have similar criteria to what the Society for Venturism has but with a focus on our members, or the terminally ill, the disabled, and people who are important to the LE community obviously giving it to those who need it soonest. The funds would also be more for matching. If Joe Cryonics is approved for our cryosupport, we would then match donations from the community, the recipient's family and friends, and doing so would promote LongeCity and function as advocacy within the recipient's network and hopefully lead to additional memberships and cryonics support subscriptions as well as support among other initiatives and increased advertising revenue to match the membership growth. If demand exceeded what we could afford, I imagine we would stick to KrioRus neuros @ $14k plus some extra for final travel expenses until such time as fundraising exceeded demand. Fundraising beyond that would fall to other platforms. Our goal would be to reach maximum impact.

For the promotional events we'd be aiming to achieve maximum membership/user growth or substantial growth into new markets. promotional events would only occur when we had raised enough to fund all immediate charity patients and only when it would be expected that we would have a net benefit from doing so which would allow us more leverage.

All cryonics donations and support would be owned by LC until disbursed to a cryoprovider and be transferable only between cryonics charity organizations such as the Society for Venturism, the Church of Perpetual Life, etc. and not from the recipient to another party. This would allow for us to support someone to raise the initial funds for a KR neuro when demand is high, but allow other organizations to fund raise in excess of it for preservation at the Cryonics Institute, Alcor, or the Australian cryoprovider which is currently being founded.

[Stella]

I'd be on board with adding it as an option, but given the already low membership numbers and general low population, we probably wouldn't see much benefit until we hit more users.

[YOLF]

I'd like to take the reigns on a similar project which was previously discussed here:
http://www.longecity...nd/#entry651066

And here:
http://www.longecity...067#entry651067

This project would run an indiegogo campaign or similar to raise money for the cost of one neuro suspension at KrioRus and enough to transport the patient to Moscow. This preservation would be available in emergencies for LongeCity members

Under my plan, the IGG campaign would fund the first members only cryopreservation and monies collected in excess of this would be available for non members. Further a small percentage of subscription monies would be allocated for the member cryopreservation to expand the number of suspensions we can afford in dire circumstances. If a Member is preserved, all subscription funds would be used to refill the last number of cryosuspensions held for members. So if we've had as many as two, the funding would refill until we had two again, and then go back to the regular 80/20 (Anyone/Members) allocation. Further, we would run individual fundraisers on site before disbursing the funds. So if Anyone or Member needs to be cryopreserved, we would raise as much money for their cryopreservation as possible until the time of their deanimation before tapping the respective funds. If monies are raised in excess of the cost of a KR neuro, those funds may be passed on to other organizations who are raising money for preservation elsewhere, but will revert to the custody of LC if the goal is not reached. So if A/M needs cryopreservation and manages to raise $3k in excess of the cost of a KR neuro, succeeds in raising the $30k for whole body with CI, but fails to raise enough for an $80k suspension at Alcor, the $3k would be disbursed to CI. If they were to fail to raise the money necessary for CI and be preserved with KR, the $3k would go into the Anyone fund.

[caliban]

Good news 1: There is just under 1K in the kitty already for some kind of cryonics hardship initiative.

Just add another item to the store and put a banner for it in the unused ad space rotation, then I'll put the "CryoSupporter" tag or icon in the subscriber's registered user/etc text box. I think I saw something to the effect of a post signature that can be enabled to which we could add tags and such for users.

Good news 2: Such a 'pay points (or money) for badges' scheme should be quite doable.

However, there are quite a few challenges with a scheme like you suggest in your last post. Apart from the endorsement of a particular cryonics provider and the legal difficulties with fundraising for a members only benefit, the criticism that is often levelled at 'pooled'schemes is that contributors may be lulled into a sense of complacency, neglecting to make their own arrangement because they paid into some scheme (that could all to easily turn out to be of the Ponzi variety, even if that was never intended).

[YOLF]

Well, we could examine the program and get information from the cryonics life insurance agents and the providers as to the growth or slowing of signups and publish that to members. Eventually closing the program if it becomes necessary. We would of course not publish the funds raised for this project and always present it as a struggling and underfunded program and that's probably what it'll be when word gets out that and demand starts exceeding supply.

I also don't think we're endorsing a particular provider. Those we raise funds for are more than welcome to raise funds for other cryoproviders and if they get enough, we'll be contributing to them. But our goal is to serve as many people as possible and that means we have to buy them the cheap cryonics. Hopefully CI will see how much money they are losing and offer neurosuspension to compete with them. IMO, the whole body only reasoning is getting silly and we need to focus on serving as many patients as possible, even if it means swallowing our pride on a few things. I think we'll also see more companies offering low cost cryonics in the future at rates near KR. It's just a matter of seeing them get started.

In any case we can explain that we aren't endorsing KR somewhere in the programs documentation and the the choice of KR is to serve a maximum number of people. If we are later able to afford more through the program, we can start offering to pay more CI or Alcor services. As technology improves it could also be the case that it gets cheaper.

[Stella]

The program may indeed need to be closed at some point if the drain on funding exceeds the usefulness of the program, but it would probably be a good way of drawing interest and getting bodies through the door, some of whom may stick around. Given the relative lack of members and the unlikelihood of more than one preservation being needed every few years at this point, it should be more than doable at least until the sheer number of people makes the project unfeasible, at which point the funding could go towards advertising etc

It probably won't start gaining any traction until the first successful preservation from the fund, however. That event would be enough to warrant news items in various publications and possibly start the momentum building, which is what is really desirable. The biggest mid-long term goal would be to gain a critical mass of followers such that numbers grow noticeably through word of mouth and so on.

[YOLF]

The families of those seeking cryonics funding would also be notified and could possibly become members or start planning for cryonics for the rest of their families.

[Stella]

Point is until the fund has at least one beneficiary it will most likely stay low on the radar. Might be wise to actively look for an appropriate beneficiary once the fund has collected enough to preserve someone, for the first one anyway.

[YOLF]

We've already funded separate cases such as Kim Suozzi, Aaron Winborne, Will O'Rights, etc. I would see this as an expansion of that history under a different model.

[Shannon Vyff]

There are a lot of potential legal problems with funding a cryonics suspension. The Society for Venturism raises funds for an individual who on their own contracts with the cryonics organization of their choice. The funds are to be given to that organization for the individual when needed, but the individual has fully funded status till then (such as a person with life insurance set up is considered funded) if the charity recipient is not cryonically preserved then the donated money will go to another recipient or the donor (if it is requested back by the donor).

LongeCity has a cryonics charity already in place where it could be worded that it will benefit LongeCity members only, with at least one every five years or so being funded depending on how the projected numbers look. Five years seems reasonable. The money could be given to the Venturists to go through the tax deductible cryonics charity - or could go directly to the cryonics organization. It is not just 12k for KrioRus, it costs at least 10k or more for transport and the paperwork/red tape may not always be attainable. The Venturists have looked into this as well as Frontier Cryonics (a new organization that is looking to work with Oregon Cryonics or whomever else gets any low cost chemical or cryonic brain preservation going. No one is yet set up for brain only, for instance, that could possibly get the price down to around 5k). KrioRus may work for some countries but currently it looks to be too difficult from the States.

It would be great to see LongeCity promote their own cryonics charity more - and to work with other cryonics charities to get help with the legalities. There have to be guidelines on who would qualify as well, currently the Venturists only take on cases where they have verified the person not only does not have the funds but also does not have the ability to get life insurance or provide their own funding in the future.

[YOLF]

Looks very interesting. I've been working on some other things which I believe would push more would be cryonicists over the edge and to sign the papers. That's actually a great. I've begun contacting them to see what I can do. My only concern in their business model. I don't see the wealth of information published on their site about how they plan to survive the test of time. But if they pass that test, I think I could definitely help them drive their growth. Emergency cases like this could also drive fast growth for them.

I like that they also have chemical options too, though I'm not sure what exactly that is or how much I support that yet. Still need more info. We obviously don't want to start a company that will tank and take people with it. But the support I've been planning for the industry will help give their early clients more peace of mind.

What are the potential legal problems?

Edited by cryonicsculture, 24 March 2014 - 11:03 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

Contact who? Jordan is the best contact for Oregon Cryonics. I'm on the board of Frontier Cryonics, as well as Society for Venturism. Frontier Cryonics and Oregon Cryonics are working together, they are both new.

Legal problems in regards to who the money is for- or where it is going, what guarantees there are for the person, who is responsible for suspension etc. - potential litigation from family, potential jeopardization of non profit status.

[YOLF]

Where is Frontier Cryonics? The map makes it look like they are in the middle east or eastern europe.

I think we can fix the legal issues and make this a safer venture if we change our fundraising strategy. I don't see any legal issues with raising funds for John/Jane Cryonics if we state ahead of time that in the interest of successful future fundraisers, all funds not spent on John/Jane Cryonics will go into a separate cryonics support investment to be spent at the discretion of the LongeCity board on the next patient or in the interest of lowering the cost of cryonics/keeping it low. The more specific promises we want to make, the more legally entangled we may become. This money should be different from the regular budget and shouldn't count towards our total assets for the purpose of planning the budget as it could become quite large.

The subscription funds will go into a separate cryonics support investment account (CSIA) to be spent at the discretion of the LongeCity board on the next patient or in the interest of lowering the cost of cryonics/keeping it low. It will be from this fund that LongeCity does matching fundraisers or emergency disbursements to people receiving cryonics. Funds raised for a specific candidate for cryonics support where the donations are below a specified limit will be absorbed by the CSIA. Those above the limit may be refunded at the request of the donor if the request is received w/in 30 days of the death of the candidate for cryonics support where the funds are not used for their preservation. Chemical preservation is an acceptable form of preservation where cryonics funding is not reached and monies in excess of this and related costs will be considered over funding and will be moved to the CSIA. Monies raised in excess of the funding goal will go to towards the next cryonics goal if other organizations are fundraising for additional services or preservation at higher price point when that goal would be reached by the addition of the funds. Otherwise, excess funds will be moved to the CSIA.

Hows that look?

[caliban]

legal (and tax) difficulties arise if this were a scheme only for the benefit of Immortality Institute members or 'subscribers' of your scheme.

I'm still unclear about the aims. The current hardship fund is for hardship cases.
If you wanted to raise funds in support of "lowering the cost of cryonics" that seems a bit different.

[YOLF]

In that case, we just trim off anything that doesn't fit with the charitable objective.

[Shannon Vyff]

Frontier Cryonics has received its 501c non-profit corporation as of January 1st of this year, it is located in Arizona. Its legal business name is Frontier Life Extension Philanthropies. Trans Times may be getting started again, but will be in the same market with ACS and OC. Frontier Cryonics has the goal of low cost storage and of helping people who could not on their own get suspension. OC may soon be able to take brain storage and that will be a way to substantially lower the suspension costs.

We do already have our own LongeCity cryonics charity fund, so adding a subscription to donate to it would be easy to do. SfV has also tried to say chemical could be used, but many people don't want to try that and they want to have control (as well as they should have control) over what happens to them at their legal death. SfV lets the people make their own arrangements and will not force someone to do something they don't want to do. If anything, LongeCity needs to put more wording into what circumstances its cryonics charity fund will be used. I would recommend that we leave it as we have, where it is open to anyone and not specific to LongeCity members. The board should take into consideration individual cases that apply and then decide if the funds will go straight to the cryonics organization the hardship recipient contracts with, such as SfV does, or will do to another charitable cryonics organization such as SfV or Frontier Cryonics if the individual is also having funds raised by one of them.

[Layberinthius]

I will gladly subscribe to $20 per month if I can be guaranteed that my mind won't be uploaded to a computer (unless it is merely as a backup incase of my death or failure to rescuscitate).

 

I would like to have my current brain put into a jar and attached to a robotic body and/or reborn as a new person. I'm also in Australia which makes things a tad more difficult.

 

I believe death to be certian and that jumping across to a computer as a virtual cybernetic mind as being no-longer myself, no longer me and therefore undesirable.

 

There would also be other minor customizations which I would probably want or desire too.

 

There is also a "time of death" warning system which would be awesome to have, something which synchs to a wifi access point and keeps tabs on me at all times, and in the event of death immediatley notifies the closest hospital that there is a potential cryonics patient incoming.

 

Certianly becoming a complex issue. Another spanner in the works is the fact that you guys would basically have to own or operate as a cryonics corporation, either that or gather the financial, legal, and guiding support of one.

Edited by Layberinthius, 22 April 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[YOLF]

The monitoring software already exists though it isn't official. You wouldn't be getting cryonics for your subscription. The subscription would be going to pay for charity cases. If you'd like to apply once we get the cryonics subscriptions up and running you'd be more than welcome to.

 

 

Australia has a new cryonics company that will be doing the procedure for $70K USD IIRC for whole body. KrioRus in Moscow will do neuro for $12K and Oregon Cryonics in the US will do neuro for $14K.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 22 April 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Correct me if I am wrong, but...

 

Asuming that 1000 people will be in such a scheme, and assuming that each of them will need one and the same amounth of money (12 000 USD), and assuming, that they all have to be cryopreserved, then you will need 1000 x 12 000 = 12 000 000 USD for them all.

 

With 12 000 payed each year, you will need 1000 years to collect the necessary money to criopreserve all people in the list.

 

So, cryopreserving all the people in the list in these conditions is impossible.

 

This scheme will benefit only those, who will be criopreserved firstly. They will pay 1 USD for only several moths / years and will be criopreserved virtually for free with the money of the rest of the people in the list.

 

Then those, who are cryopreserved, will stop paying the 1 USD (since they will not be cappable to do so). The people, who will be stopping to pay (the cryopreserved) will be more and more each year, and the people, who will pay will be becomming fewer and fewer.

 

Those, who will have to be criopreserved the last, will not have enough money for their criopreservation. But they will have payed the criopreservation of the people before them.

 

Simmilar schemes exist for quite a long time, and they have won the reputation of an efficient way to steal money from naive people.

[Danail Bulgaria]

P.S. Calculations seem to be simmilar with 12 000 people in the list:

 

12 000 people x 12 000 USD needed for each in the list = 144 000 000 USD needed for all

 

12 months x 12 000 USD for a month = 144 000 gathered a year

 

144 000 000 / 144 000 gatherea for an year = 1000 years needed to be collected the money for all in the list

[YOLF]

In reference to a post that I removed so it wouldn't confuse anyone:

 

Subscriptions don't guarantee you a cryopreservation. You're subscribing to a donation level or making a one time payment and the money goes specifically to this project. Basically, pay $5, $8, or $12/yr so LongeCity can help needy people have a chance at cryopreservation. You'd also be able to make one time donations. It's not a pyramid scheme. 

 

What made you think that we were going to try to cryopreserve all subscribers? I guess I'll need to fix that part.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 26 June 2014 - 12:25 AM.

[Shannon Vyff]

In the initial wording it sounds a bit like anyone participating would be automatically entered in for a chance at a cryopreservation. It also isn't clear if only people who have supported the charity in the past will be able to apply for the charity. There should be clear guidelines there- who can apply and that all "supporters" are "donators" My editing is below.

 

____________________

 

The subscription funds will go into the LongeCity Cryonics Hardship Funds for cryonics charity to be spent at the discretion of the LongeCity board on the next recipient approved by the board. It will be from this fund that LongeCity does matching fundraisers or emergency disbursements to recipients receiving cryonics. Funds raised for a specific candidate for cryonics support where the donations are below a specified limit will be absorbed by the Hardship Cryonics Charity Fund. Those above the limit may be refunded at the request of the donor if the request is received w/in 30 days of the death of the candidate for cryonics support where the funds are not used for their preservation. Chemical preservation is an acceptable form of preservation where cryonics funding is not reached. Monies raised in excess of the funding goal will go to towards the next hardship charity case. 

 

LongeCity Cryonics Hardship Fund Applicant Criteria - 

• Anyone may apply for cryopreservation, you need not be a donor.
• Applicant must not be able to afford preservation on their own.
• People who are important to the RLE movement and those who are LongeCity members will be given preference when non-emergency patients are applying.
• Applicant must help to fundraise for their preservation to reduce costs in order to ensure a maximal amount of preservations can be funded.

 

Edited by Shannon Vyff, 06 July 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[YOLF]

Applicant Criteria - 

• Anyone may apply for cryopreservation, you need not be a donor.
• Applicant must not be able to afford preservation on their own.
• People who are important to the RLE movement and those who are LongeCity members will be given preference when non-emergency patients are applying.
• Applicant must help to fundraise for their preservation to reduce costs in order to ensure a maximal amount of preservations can be funded.

 

Prize Criteria -

• LongeCity, may where permitted by the project rules and permitted by law, hold contests and award the winner with a cryopreservation, lifetime membership to a cryonics organization, or other relevant prize of their choosing to be paid for from the CSIA.

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

"In reference to a post that I removed ... "

 

Was this my post?    

 

How did you removed it? Will you please tell me how, since I am not able to change or remove my posts. Since people, who are not authors of posts can remove them, there should be a way for the author to edit/remove.

 

Thanks ion advance for the answer!

 

[Shannon Vyff]

All members can edit their own posts for a short time, then it is closed off for editing by anyone but a member of leadership. This is done to keep the continuance of older posts, if anyone needs to have their own post edited they can ask one of our leadership to edit it. Anyone is welcome to help out in leadership as well