338 replies to this topic

[medievil]

"Some of us with ADHD, seem to have an excess of Glutamate instead!"

 

Indeed there are differened types, most types are "mini shizophrenia's" limited to one negative symtion without positives and simulary respond to stimulants. Another type is unrelated but "prefrontal hypoactivity" without falling under that catagory.

[Introspecta]

I appreciate your post Opaque Mind and I actually feel pretty much just like you. I was more of a nootropic junkie until I realized many wern't helping me. But this whole Upregulation of Gaba B really has me thinking because I just havn't had the courage to taper completely off phenibut and I hate benzos and ruined a few of my detox attemps using them and if I am to get off it will be tapering.  I also don'[t want to screw up my brain in the process. I wish this drug was more benign and the only thing it did was upregulate gaba B,lol but there seems to be much more involved than I can even comprehend.

 

Good diet, exercise and herbs are def the way to go. I used to be the one looking for the next nootropic to cure me. To make me feel ok... I actually feel ok today using nothing but my low dose phen, a few caps of Mucuna Pruriens 3-5 days a week off one week. Also making sure to keep caffiene intake Low to keep a level head, steady blood sugar.

[normalizing]

what is LLLT

[Nattzor]

what is LLLT

 

Low-Level Laser/Light/LED Therapy. You point a Laser/LED/Light source with the right wavelength onto something for an effect. Most people here on longecity do it on the head to get an effect on the brain.

[normalizing]

lol laser in the head.... great idea! doesnt laser or any light contain some radiation? also recently i read they used lasers to manipulate and even erase memories in rats. i mean, is this even a good idea. altering your brain with lasers!

[Major Legend]

Messing with glut and other NT ratios is like a weird version of russian roulette;6 chambers, ....

 

Nicely written as usual. Hardware cognitive enhancement is very interesting, however it remains to be applied in as wide scale as the vast amount of chemicals used in medicine so the evidence is limiting. I think they would probably coexist and support each other in the future. I don't think people are willing to give up "the chase" just yet, and :

 

1) neurofeedback is inaccesible for most compared to ordering chemicals,

 

2 ) it remains to be seen whether neurofeedback or brain stimulation works in a wider cohort. Stuff like this is worrisome ( I know you were talking about neurofeedback, but I think its a too early presumption in general that hardware is immune to side effects, especially we have zero long term studies vs chemicals):

 

 

I finally have the courage to share this. In January of 2013 I did a total of 3 anode on left DLPFC (fp1) attention montage sessions with an Activa Dose II with 3x3" armex electrodes in a saline solution with the cathode on the contralateral shoulder for 2ma x 20min each over 3 days (1 session at night each day). On the third day after doing a tdcs session I was drinking a few more cups of coffee than I normally do. I went to a coffee shop, the lights flickered, I thought that I was still seeing phosphenes and got anxiety. I decided to leave the coffee shop after about 35 mins. I went to a restaurant and there were too many appliances in the wall as well and the lights flickered. (I confirmed it from an individual who worked there that the lights were flickering.) I ended up going home with my togo order and ate it at home. Around 50 mins. from originally doing tdcs I was watching a documentary when my hands started to tingle for no reason. I looked down at my hands and then boom! Instant panic attack. I thought I was having a stroke and ran out of my apartment in the fight or flight fashion. I thought I was originally having a seizure or stroke or something. I felt like I was choking on air. I had experienced something that my coping mechanisms could not handle and my psyche would be damaged forever. I thought I was going to die for real. I ended up walking back home after searching my iphone on google my symptoms and realizing I had a full blown panic attack. For the next 3 days I didn't want to leave my covers, I had gastrointestinal stress through repeat toilet visits, I had crippling anxiety and depression. I stayed in my bed eating cheerios for a week, skipping class and friends. It didn't go away. I was diagnosed by a psychiatrist with panic disorder, GAD, and major depressive disorder. It's now been a year and a half since this happened. I have no panic attacks or constant anxiety, but I still have major depression. I did 35 sessions of CBT just to get over my traumatic event. I have to take 50mg Zoloft and 300mg Wellbutrin just to get by. My quality of life is almost ruined compared to how it was before. My brain is still young and plastic (22 years old) and I've had tremendous progress in going from not being able to leave my room and bed to going back to school, yes I dropped out of college with a medical emergency withdrawal from a psychologist written appeal. know I had genetic predispositions to anxiety and depression, but why was the tdcs and caffeine a trigger that unleashed this black dog. I always think about going back in time and never attempting tdcs. If anyone else had something like this, please chime in. Ask away... In my opinion, it is definitely invasive not noninvasive. /u/level6159 please join in as well with your panic attack experience. I still don't know what went wrong to this day. I had a theory of amygdala stimulation, but I've thrown that out based on the current path.

also: If any neurologists or tdcs specialists want to study me, contact me by sending me a pm. I'm in the Atlanta area near that Atlanta tdcs clinic.

edit1: I also have a friend who did the same montage over 60 times or so and had a panic attack and is now in the same situation. We don't know if we can attribute it to the tdcs, our genetics, our environment, or a combination of everything (the perfect storm of conditions).

edit 2: http://www.mrn.org/f...hole_Letter.pdf (1-in-500) adverse effects of a panic attack

edit 3: I forgot to mention, for the first 6 months after the panic attack I had the worst tension headaches and pressure behind my eyes.

edit 4: new speculation by talking with private individuals has come up with the possibility of stimulating my cns because of the contralateral cathode placement causing the hand tingling, also the possibilty of vagus nerve stimulation causing the gastrointestinal distress, and lastly and most important speculation of the panic attack and following anxiety through potential stimulation of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex which is known to operate in this realm. The only strange thing so far is the prolonged potentiated anxiety and anxiety-reaction of depression due to there being not much long-term potentiation (only 3 sessions over 3 days, yet the adverse effects remained.) With the contralateral shoulder cathode montage, it should be noted that we now know the current is gratest in the middle, which again reinforces the ventromedial prefrontal cortex stimulation hypothesis.

edit 5: I think another topic of discussion here would be: what are the consequences if something emotionally traumatic happens to you (such as a panic attack) within the first hour post tdcs session. Will the longterm potentiation have a greater long term effect since emotional events such as panic attacks cause a release of many different neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine, etc. If there is emotional trauma during this period of plasticity, is the plasticity a potential negative factor if the experience is a bad one?

 

3 ) Tolerance/homeostasis is a huge issue with chemicals, but if neurofeedback is similar to how I imagine it is, then there are probably limitations to how much it can shift the brain. I think of the comparison of exercise vs supplements/steroids.

 

4) Piracetam, caffeine, etc is instaneous. Neurofeedback, epigenetics and so on isn't. The feedback from chemical is generally very direct, if it doesn't work then ditch it and swap for something else.

 

Again as usual I just like to throw in the other side of the coin for discussion. I am VERY interested in neurofeedback, TDCS and light stimulation, but I think its too early to rule out pharms just yet.

[OpaqueMind]

Nicely written as usual. Hardware cognitive enhancement is very interesting....

 

Hey Major, I replied to your reply in the NFB thread to avoid taking this thread off topic - http://www.longecity...e-2#entry666859

[formergenius]

I mean, this chemical is completely untested in humans.

 

that's not true

[normalizing]

none of the stuff posted on here is untested in humans. each time something is discussed, offered and brought it is tested by someone on here, are you saying longecity people arent "human"? as far as i know, there are always new reports of people trying those research chems without negative effect.

[OpaqueMind]

that's not true

 

 

I didn't see that, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Though it doesn't really have any bearing on anything else I had to say, which stands apart from whether or not any individual chemical has had its pharmacokinetics partially investigated. We still have little idea of how it actually works in the brain, or what it's long term effects will be. But even that is beside the point... the gist of what I was saying is that these kinds of approaches are significantly and intrinsically limited, and there are much more effective and safer ways to go about augmenting and developing cognition.

[normalizing]

^ what do you mean by we still dont know how it works in the brain? we still dont know how piracetam works in the brain and its the oldest racetam. yet imagine if people were scared of it and never tried it for all those decades. what progress is there? hell, we still dont even know exactly how minerals and vitamins work in the brain still and it doesnt stop people from taking vitamins and minerals. in fact, we dont know anything for certain how it works exactly precisely at all and as philosophy goes, of what can i be certain? if we cant know for sure anything for real with total convinience it works or it doesnt work and what it does exactly, then we should just stay on the side and wait and idle until we do? so that means, not take supplements, vitamins and minerals are still research subject, why bother with them? in fact, why eat, we dont know still what food does precisely in our systems, though through the years we get bits of information on whats bad or good long term, nothing is conviencing, might as well wait more and more years to be exactly positively sure what it does before we continue eating?

Edited by normalizing, 07 June 2014 - 06:38 PM.

[Introspecta]

I think he was more saying playing with drugs that mess with neurotransmitters is dangerous and you can get healthy without them. I don't doubt people have imbalances but I personally believe we don't need drugs to correct our imbalances. We just want the shortcut. I thought it was just the American way but many people on here are from Europe so It seems to be just as bad around the world. Playing the guessing game of trying to correct imbalances with Drugs seems stupid when you can get on a super clean diet, get your ass to the gym, start meditating, read. Herbs can be powerful and work on neurotransmitters without causing dangerous side effects....

 

Even still I may try this drug and examine the effect on Gaba B while tapering Phenibut. If it does indeed upregulate B then I would think it would potentiate it. I am a little weary about doing this and will start low at first. I don't have the money yet and have way too much energy due to Celibicy and some sort of awakening that caused me to have tons of energy where I can't sleep. I can't really explain it. Maybe its from quitting most stimulants and harmful things in my life and now I have tons of energy I don't know but its def not the time to be messing with my brain when I'm feeling so good.

[Major Legend]

I think he was more saying playing with drugs that mess with neurotransmitters is dangerous and you can get healthy without them. I don't doubt people have imbalances but I personally believe we don't need drugs to correct our imbalances. We just want the shortcut. I thought it was just the American way but many people on here are from Europe so It seems to be just as bad around the world. Playing the guessing game of trying to correct imbalances with Drugs seems stupid when you can get on a super clean diet, get your ass to the gym, start meditating, read. Herbs can be powerful and work on neurotransmitters without causing dangerous side effects....

 

Even still I may try this drug and examine the effect on Gaba B while tapering Phenibut. If it does indeed upregulate B then I would think it would potentiate it. I am a little weary about doing this and will start low at first. I don't have the money yet and have way too much energy due to Celibicy and some sort of awakening that caused me to have tons of energy where I can't sleep. I can't really explain it. Maybe its from quitting most stimulants and harmful things in my life and now I have tons of energy I don't know but its def not the time to be messing with my brain when I'm feeling so good.

 

 

In my case drugs really did turn my life around, before drugs I had tried everything, was working out 4 times a week, was on a strictly controlled diet. (no amount of natural conditioning will get rid of the noise my brain naturally produces from autism) I think there are both sides to the argument :

 

1) don't fix what's not broken, and just focus on improving other factors like diet, environment, exercise and so on.

 

2) admit you need help and start taking meds earlier rather than later (I held off experimenting with drugs and nootropics for waaay too long in believe of the natural method in that I ended up missing all the things a young person should experience)

 

Also there are way too many self diagnosed people out there, I was diagnosed by a doctor to have mental issues (to be advised for special education which didn't happen) before I was 3. So unless you have real proof of having a problem, please don't assume you have XXXX problem, not that I trust doctors, but really most people ARE FINE.

Edited by Major Legend, 07 June 2014 - 07:28 PM.

[normalizing]

Itrospecta, did you just say you quit all stimulants in your life and now you have so much natural energy that you cant sleep? that sounds strange. if you quit all stimulants and the energy you get is what you call "natural" why would that prevent you from getting sleep?

[xsiv1]

We should all know by now that good 1) nutrition; 2) consistent, varied & vigorous types of exercise and 3) proper sleep hygiene are the staples of healthy cognition and memory consolidation. Studies have shown that the majority of people are lacking in at least one of the above factors. No need to link to these studies. We hear about them all the time. Many people are sleep deprived, their diets are crappy and the majority don't exercise regularly much less combining resistance & moderate/high interval cardiovascular exercise. So yes, in comes the desire for either a shortcut, a band aid, or some crutch. Yet for others who are diligent with the above there factors, they're looking for a solution to some issue they're dealing with OR they're liking for enhancement. One important ingredient that's often overlooked is brain exercise. I know this is one I'm guilty of. There are a ton of ways to address deficiencies or enhance ones cognitive/mental being by cognitive or behavioral exercise or therapy. Meditation and the rest of the 'natural' methods should all be looked at obviously before trying any drug.

However, for many people here, optimal, enhanced, repaired, improved (or anything else I'm missing) brain activity and the use of compounds is a shortcut. I've always tried to cycle off any particular nootropic or stack with, typically, short term success. I don't believe any of the stacks I've and stopped have led to discernible (albeit subjective) long term success. It improved facets of mental capacity during various stages but it doesn't mean that I won't try another nootropic or compound again.

This one is intriguing because I'm wondering if it acts as an antagonist in some fashion in order to upregulate Gaba B specifically. I'm unclear as to the exact mechanism of action here but I'd hope it's not anxiogenic. Time will tell.

[mait]

Pulled the trigger and ordered 500mg of it from NSN. Hope it makes to me. Will give my updates on how 10mg/day of Fasoracetam affects my WM, reaction time and subjectively assessed motivation and work related productivity.

[8bitmore]

I think there's a worthwhile thread on r/Nootropics at the moment, seems a couple of people are getting pigmentation changes, maybe from using Fasoracetam. Always good to be cautious with new meds (see (dog)-testicle shrinking capacity of Nefiracetam for example...).

Edited by 8bitmore, 18 June 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[telight]

I think there's a worthwhile thread on r/Nootropics at the moment, seems a couple of people are getting pigmentation changes, maybe from using Fasoracetam. Always good to be cautious with new meds (see (dog)-testicle shrinking capacity of Nefiracetam for example...).

 

That thread was started by me. My pigmentation is better now that I took a break from "Super Rhodiola" and fasoracetam. I just took a large dose of Super Rhodiola while abstaining from fasoracetam. I will see if the hyperpigmentation spots make a come back.

[8bitmore]

 

I think there's a worthwhile thread on r/Nootropics at the moment, seems a couple of people are getting pigmentation changes, maybe from using Fasoracetam. Always good to be cautious with new meds (see (dog)-testicle shrinking capacity of Nefiracetam for example...).

 

That thread was started by me. My pigmentation is better now that I took a break from "Super Rhodiola" and fasoracetam. I just took a large dose of Super Rhodiola while abstaining from fasoracetam. I will see if the hyperpigmentation spots make a come back.

 

 

For science (please update here when the results (hopefully don't) start appearing)!

[telight]

 

 

I think there's a worthwhile thread on r/Nootropics at the moment, seems a couple of people are getting pigmentation changes, maybe from using Fasoracetam. Always good to be cautious with new meds (see (dog)-testicle shrinking capacity of Nefiracetam for example...).

 

That thread was started by me. My pigmentation is better now that I took a break from "Super Rhodiola" and fasoracetam. I just took a large dose of Super Rhodiola while abstaining from fasoracetam. I will see if the hyperpigmentation spots make a come back.

 

 

For science (please update here when the results (hopefully don't) start appearing)!

 

 

I have updated the reddit thread. I have been taking relatively large doses of "Super Rhodiola" sens fasoracetam and the pigmentation is getting less and less visible as time passes. Which leads me to believe that  Super Rhodiola was not causing the hyperpigmentation on its own but it was likely the combination of Super Rhodiola and fasoracetam, or perhaps high doses of fasoracetam (>50mg sublingual). To find out which, more testing will be required.

Edited by telight, 19 June 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[telight]

Do not pay this much for it. Wait a few weeks and other reputable suppliers will have it for less than 1/5th the price. 

 

Doesn't look like it has happened yet. It seemed to me that you were hinting that you were planning to stock it a much reduced compared to NSN's price. Is this the case?

 

On another note, I have taken a week break from fasoracetam and will see if I can replicate the effects that started to occur at the end of my three week trial with it. The effects from my first trial appear to be very impressive with an enhancement in learning, the rate at which I was acquiring information at the end of the trial was even noticed by my peers who, for the first time that I know of, used the word "genius" to describe me. Any research who wants to experiment with this drug should be aware that there appears to be long term effects and side effects.  The most prominent long term side effect which was most likely due to my faso use was a reduction in orgasm, a sexual side effect which doesn't really concern me all too much but I can see how it can be problematic for others. 

 

I am not claiming that this drug turned me into a genius since my cognitive function was already high but it helped me learn concepts faster but more importantly "internalization" of concepts happened much faster than in my non-faso state. I had quickly built up an intuitive understanding of mathematics in the  semester course which I took over the course of 4 weeks.

 

I do want to say that I could not find any quantitative change in cognition uses the metrics at BrainHQ. It is possible that this is all my head, but drawing off my previous experience with nootropics I highly doubt that this is the case.

[xsiv1]

Does anyone find it anxiogenic?  

[mikee37]

Does anyone find it anxiogenic?  

 

not me
 

[Mind_Paralysis]

I am not claiming that this drug turned me into a genius since my cognitive function was already high but it helped me learn concepts faster but more importantly "internalization" of concepts happened much faster than in my non-faso state. I had quickly built up an intuitive understanding of mathematics in the  semester course which I took over the course of 4 weeks.

 

I do want to say that I could not find any quantitative change in cognition uses the metrics at BrainHQ. It is possible that this is all my head, but drawing off my previous experience with nootropics I highly doubt that this is the case.

 

 

I think it's the motivation, man. That increased drive that it gives you, it prevents you from tiring as easily from learning advanced concepts, and it enhances your attention, I bet. Enhanced drive and attention, without the crushing side-effects of stims, is the currently researched use for Fasoracetam.

 

Have you tried another set of cognition-measuring tho? Like www.cambridgebrainsciences.com ., it might be that Faso really has improved your cognition, but in ways that the other test can't measure.

[chris106]

Telight, might I ask how much of it you were taking daily?

I'm thinking about getting some from NSN -

but looking at the prices and not having any reliable information regarding standard doses is making me have second guesses...

Edited by chris106, 29 June 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Good question. I would suggest we go straight to the expert, and ask him - he might actually reply! =)

Dr. Håkon Håkonarson is the guy doing the research right now, and even tho' he probably won't like the idea of people trying the drug on their own, he might be interested in answering a few questions about the compound, and what he has learned so far - perhaps even if it's actually working, for various cognitive disorders.

 

The information could then be useful for neuro-typical people as well, since it will reveal potential uses for them too.

 

http://www.research....akon-hakonarson

 

Otherwise, a good starting dose seems to be 5 mg. Apparently it's pretty strong stuff.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 29 June 2014 - 12:44 PM.

[chris106]

5mg? Well even if I conscidered taking 10mg twice daily, that wouldn't be that expensive at all with NSN prices. 500mg for 20$ would last me about a month or even longer...

I expected way worse to be honest - it's way cheaper than modafinil, that's for damn sure

Only problem - NSN does not ship to Germany anymore - so expensive parcel-forwarding via the UK it is again... -_-

It's allmost funny to look up the countries NSN does not ship to due to custom issues: Afghanistan, Cuba, Germany, North Korea a.o. -
giving a pretty acurate picture about how german customs operate if you ask me... :D
 

Edited by chris106, 29 June 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[spookytooth]

I couldn't agree more about the issues with German customs. They confiscated Lion's Mane i had ordered because they said the packaging looked a little like it could be medication. The fact that it is not indicated for any illness whatsoever neither on the packaging nor in general didn't make a difference at all. Just awesome people working there with the power to make completely arbitrary decisions. ^^

 

5mg? Well even if I conscidered taking 10mg twice daily, that wouldn't be that expensive at all with NSN prices. 500mg for 20$ would last me about a month or even longer...

I expected way worse to be honest - it's way cheaper than modafinil, that's for damn sure

Only problem - NSN does not ship to Germany anymore - so expensive parcel-forwarding via the UK it is again... -_-

It's allmost funny to look up the countries NSN does not ship to due to custom issues: Afghanistan, Cuba, Germany, North Korea a.o. -
giving a pretty acurate picture about how german customs operate if you ask me... :D
 

 

[shantaram]

I couldn't agree more about the issues with German customs. They confiscated Lion's Mane i had ordered because they said the packaging looked a little like it could be medication. The fact that it is not indicated for any illness whatsoever neither on the packaging nor in general didn't make a difference at all. Just awesome people working there with the power to make completely arbitrary decisions. ^^

 

 

So what would they do if something doesn't look like it is intended for human consumption but the web is full of experience reports? Would they want to know what your intended use is?

[spookytooth]

No, they wouldn't want to know. They would just assume. We're pretty much at the point where you can't order anything that is a powder or in capsule form from outside of the EU.

I couldn't agree more about the issues with German customs. They confiscated Lion's Mane i had ordered because they said the packaging looked a little like it could be medication. The fact that it is not indicated for any illness whatsoever neither on the packaging nor in general didn't make a difference at all. Just awesome people working there with the power to make completely arbitrary decisions. ^^
 

 
So what would they do if something doesn't look like it is intended for human consumption but the web is full of experience reports? Would they want to know what your intended use is?