2266 replies to this topic

[stephen_b]

Another thing I observed is that my resting heart rate went from 62 to 52 bpm. A lowering of RHR is a good indicator of recovery, and an elevation can indicate overtraining.

[smithx]

Is there any possibility that supplementing with NR could down regulate some metabolic processes which would cause dependency on NR supplementation?

 

In other words, is is possible that after supplementing with NR for a few weeks, months or years, if it were to be discontinued, the individual would suffer some worse deficiency in NAD+ than they would have had if they had never supplemented with NR at all?

 

 

 

 

[stephen_b]

It's a definite possibility.

[midas]

It's a definite possibility.

 

 

Attached Files

•  clap2.gif   1.91KB   0 downloads

[to age or not to age]

To give a bit of an overview: these scientists, people like Lenny Guarente, David Sinclair, Brian Kennedy, Cynthia Kenyon,

Danica Chen, Marcia Haigis,  Nic Astriaco (who later became a Catholic Priest, and on who's couch David Sinclair 

used to sleep) - these people, came together in various combos and discovered that there are genes, and hence

pathways, that influence aging.  The amazing thing is that as the science winds itself around  - tangentalizes (my word)

re-examines the same ground; a more full and accurate picture emerges. They kind of have had it right from the beginning,

(early 90's) but the next discovery or refinement, gets them closer to the center of the target. I have asked Lenny

repeatedly (on camera and off- actually it has become a running joke) if there is a 'wall'- a something - some speed limit that

can't be overcome, or that he intuits can't be overcome.  The answer is no.  And Lenny himself is not someone who is

fixated on lifespan. Healthspan is his goal. The series I am embarking on is to expand the science to the larger real world

discussions; to tackle what the #2 video excerpt I published with Sinclair referred to (G B Shaw idea on lifespan and human

nature) - because in my humble opinion, and from what I have intimated from the scientists, if external societal counterparts

to the science are not tackled, from resources to politics, life-extension goals will be thwarted. 

[follies]

Politics could definitely thwart progress. I can see congress outlawing anti-aging drugs, while making sure the elites in Washington have access to them. Income inequality is nothing compared to aging inequality. Google funding anti-aging for their own use?

[stephen_b]

 

Could it be that the NR is augmenting your circadian cycle?

 

I don't think so. Not more than coffee before bed does.

 

 

I guess a longer trial period is needed to see how long term supplementation with NR affects sleep.

 

PMID 24410488 seem to think NR will benefit the circadian rhythm:

 

Restoring NAD⁺ levels may be beneficial throughout the organism. For example, aging-associated disturbances in circadian rhythm are linked to diminished SIRT1 activity, and loss of hematopoietic stem cell function to reduced SIRT3.

 

[to age or not to age]

Yesterday, Chromadex licensed exclusive patents for NR from a Dartmouth lab.  This is in keeping with what I have been told

by scientists: that certain companies are going to try to raise barriers to competition, or create new drug products with this 

underlying molecule, which could end up turning this into a prescription game, which I imagine, will increase the price.

We are filming in Cambridge from the 22nd to the 24th; I will track down the situation.  

[midas]

Am I not correct in thinking that Nicotinamide Riboside is a natural substance and in being so is not patentable?.....Only synthetic forms are open to patent?

[niner]

Am I not correct in thinking that Nicotinamide Riboside is a natural substance and in being so is not patentable?.....Only synthetic forms are open to patent?

They may not be able to patent the molecule itself (a "composition of matter" patent), but they can patent a synthetic route to the molecule. If they have patents on all of the sane ways to make it, then that would leave only... the insane ways. You can also get a "use patent", which would cover the use of a compound for a specific disease state. In a pharmaceutical situation where FDA approval applies to a specific use, this could be valuable. In the case of a supplement, I doubt that it's relevant. I'm pretty sure that what Chromadex has is a synthesis patent.

[Dan1976]

I have used nicotinamide riboside for 1 month at 1 g per day. Used a version called NiaCel from Thorne Research. I haven't noticed any benefit :-(

 

At 1 g a day it's quite expensive. I will try to gigadose the remaining NiaCel and stack it with Resveratrol, and see what happens.

 

Perhaps this is stupid but I want to see if the compound is worth it.

Edited by Dan1976, 12 June 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[hav]

 

Am I not correct in thinking that Nicotinamide Riboside is a natural substance and in being so is not patentable?.....Only synthetic forms are open to patent?

They may not be able to patent the molecule itself (a "composition of matter" patent), but they can patent a synthetic route to the molecule. If they have patents on all of the sane ways to make it, then that would leave only... the insane ways. You can also get a "use patent", which would cover the use of a compound for a specific disease state. In a pharmaceutical situation where FDA approval applies to a specific use, this could be valuable. In the case of a supplement, I doubt that it's relevant. I'm pretty sure that what Chromadex has is a synthesis patent.

 

 

Yes, its a process patent, also known as a method patent and it is owned by Dartmouth and licensed to Cromadex.  Curiously, the Supreme Court ruled last year that if any of the specific steps in the patented process are preformed by the end user, a process patent cannot be enforced. Which might be the death knell for this kind of patent.
 

Howard

[rwac]

Here's a question to those people who are having trouble with NR: Are you on a lower carb diet?

 

On the flip side, please also do respond if you're low-carbing and not having trouble with NR at all.

 

I ask this because niacinamide reduces fat burning (reducing Free Fatty Acids,etc), I'm kinda wondering if NR might not do the same thing.

[Dan1976]

I have taken the remaining 5 g of nicotinamide riboside (Thorne NiaCel brand - I had 40 caps left, each of 125 mg, that means a total of 5 g). I took it all at once.

 

At first it didn't seem to have any effect, but then I had LOTS of energy which lasted for ~14 hours.

 

This is a really nice effect.

 

I wish it was less expensive.

[Gerrans]

I have never used nicotinamide riboside; but I cannot help thinking the positve effects described by some people are similar to those I have got from niacinamide. I am not really inclined to try it. And my reasoning is that nicotinamide riboside is probably created in my system anyway. And I take Brewer's Yeast forms of B vitamins, which I suspect contain nicotinamide riboside potential.

 

*

 

Some people on this site are dubious about straight niacinamide, because they have read fragments of research and regurgitated research to the end that niacinamide might reduce their life expectancy. (In which case, logically, so might niacin.) I cannot share this fear, since niacinamide must have its finger in most of the body's pies, in a regulatory capacity. Unless by some miracle the riboside form taken orally arrests the natural aging process, I think niacinamide simply complies with aging, along with many other compounds in the body; and that since it is endogenously produced in addition to what we ingest, there is nothing much we can do about that. But unless we are science fictionalists, aging must be seen as an organic process, answering to inbuilt systems. If niacinamide is involved in switching Sirts on or off, that makes perfect sense to me--since we have to age, and aging needs regulating from day to day. I have read enough of niacinamide's health benefits to believe that on balance taking it will probably do me good--and to suppose that if riboside has anti-aging benefit then so might run-of-the-mill niacinamide too. Yes, I am taking a gamble; but in my opinion no more than the ribosiders here.

Edited by Gerrans, 16 June 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[kenj]

I have taken the remaining 5 g of nicotinamide riboside (Thorne NiaCel brand - I had 40 caps left, each of 125 mg, that means a total of 5 g). I took it all at once.

 

At first it didn't seem to have any effect, but then I had LOTS of energy which lasted for ~14 hours.

 

This is a really nice effect.

 

I wish it was less expensive.

 

That's quite the heroic dose! ; )

 

The most I took was 2G before an aerobic workout, and I didn't really feel more energetic, but that might've been because of a low food intake the day before. Hm. Time to try 5G? ; p

 

Yeah, I agree - let's hope the price drops (soon), so far NR has been very kind to my joints after exercise, and I'd like to increase my 500mg dose - soon. !

[Bryan_S]

Off topic:

 

 

There is a group purchase happening right now for anyone interested. 

 

75 days ago PWAIN announced on the Niagen (nicotinamide riboside) group buy thread that a 30% discount from the distributer at High Performance Nutrition had been secured.

 

Yesterday I inquired with HPN to be contacted when another such group buy for Longecity was organized. They replied by telling me it was happening again from June 19th - June 25th.

 

It is a 6 bottle minimum working out to around $33.60 US per bottle now through next Wednesday 6/25.

 

The purchase page is http://hpnsupplements.com/products/nr/

 

Enter code Longecity2 in your checkout cart under Apply Coupon and the price will change for quantities at or above 6 bottles. 

Someone mentioned they purchased other products on their website in addition to nicotinamide riboside (NR) and the code extended the discount to the other products. I have not verified this for myself.

 

 

 

This group buy has been organized as HPN Team pricing for our Longecity members.

 

I believe this works out to 7.5 grams per bottle or $4.48 US per gram.

 

We can resurrect this group buy every 2 months or so until a cheaper source can be secured from another distributer.

 

[Primal]

We are filming in Cambridge from the 22nd to the 24th; I will track down the situation.  

 

How is that going? Can you please ask them if oral NR is cleaved to niacinamide in the intestine http://jn.nutrition..../2/412.full.pdf  so that to deliver NR to cells one needs sublingual/parental. Also can you ask them if they compared parental NR with parental NMN.

[Arjun]

How has everyone's sleep quality been? 

[nbourbaki]

At first I was sensitive to taking NR after 5pm.  It would give me problems falling asleep. After about of month of taking NR, the problem went away.  I've taken 500mg before bed and had no problem falling asleep.  Sleep quality hasn't changed at all for me.  

[Bryan_S]

A little different for me, it's not like a stimulant at all. I often take some before sleep. I've taken it for about 4 months and if anything I feel like I come out of my sleep fog quicker in the mornings. The only other thing I might comment on and this might be particular to my regiment is I've been sleeping a little longer. However I attributed this to the exercise routine I added a couple of months ago.

[stephen_b]

Does anyone suspect that taking NR at the recommended dose might require taking anything else to compensate? I'm thinking riboflavin or a choline source. I had a nice initial boost in VO2max (I've been around 47 and increased to 49, measured using a Garmin 620 with a monitor that also measures heart rate variability using Firstbeat technology) followed by a slump to 46/47. I'm still trying to figure out what's going on.

[Bryan_S]

Does anyone suspect that taking NR at the recommended dose might require taking anything else to compensate? I'm thinking riboflavin or a choline source. I had a nice initial boost in VO2max (I've been around 47 and increased to 49, measured using a Garmin 620 with a monitor that also measures heart rate variability using Firstbeat technology) followed by a slump to 46/47. I'm still trying to figure out what's going on.

 

 

	Age (years)
rating	18-25	26-35	36-45	46-55	56-65	65+
excellent	> 60	> 56	> 51	> 45	> 41	> 37
good	52-60	49-56	43-51	39-45	36-41	33-37
above average	47-51	43-48	39-42	36-38	32-35	29-32
average	42-46	40-42	35-38	32-35	30-31	26-28
below average	37-41	35-39	31-34	29-31	26-29	22-25
poor	30-36	30-34	26-30	25-28	22-25	20-21
very poor	< 30	< 30	< 26	< 25	< 22	< 20

 

Don't know your age to look up your utilization rate. Keep this in mind your overall oxygen demand should have increased with a rise in your NAD. It will be interesting to see where you ultimately normalize but I assume this will necessitate more oxygen while using (NR). How is your resting thermogenesis, my wife noted I'm radiating more heat. The question is how do you feel?

Edited by Bryan_S, 28 June 2014 - 06:51 PM.

[stephen_b]

I'm 50 so I'm not doing too bad with a VO2max of 48.

 

I am noticing a reduction in performance at faster paces. At slower paces, where fat burning predominates, I am fine, but lately at fast paces I've just been feeling wiped out. This comes after the initial boost I saw at fast paces with NR.

[Razor444]

This is more prima facie than a comment on NR's longevity properties (obvs):

 

1/ It's an anti-nootropic for me -- decimates my working memory

 

2/ Taken sublingually it burns my tongue

 

3/ Being caustic, it upsets my stomach

 

It's NiaCel brand.

 

And then, there's the ongoing discussion about the possibility that NR is broken down to NAM in the intestine. i.e. it may end up a sirtuin inhibitor!

 

Personally, with the current info, I'm not bullish on NR. 

Edited by Razor444, 02 July 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[niner]

Razor, points 1, 2, and 3 haven't been reported by others, who mostly are using the HPN product.  Could this be specific to NiaCel?  That would kind of surprise me, as Thorne, the makers of NiaCel, has a good reputation, and they are using Chromadex's Niagen, just like HPN.  'Tis a riddle.

[Razor444]

For:

 

1/ Probably personal chemistry. I get the same with caffeine!

 

I've seen others wax lyrical about its pro-nootropic effects.

 

2/ and 3/ could be that my digestive system is more sensitive than most. There are some reports of diarrhea at higher doses (here, here, and here), but I don't recall anyone else getting chemical burns. There was the curious case, when PWAIN took it sublingually. PWAIN may be another outlier.

 

Anyway, it's another data point for the collection.

[ceridwen]

Has it been tested as an Alzheimers cure at all

[Primal]

did u guys ask HPN if they put any fillers in their niagen caps, or if its pure NR?

[Bryan_S]

For:

 

1/ Probably personal chemistry. I get the same with caffeine!

 

I've seen others wax lyrical about its pro-nootropic effects.

 

2/ and 3/ could be that my digestive system is more sensitive than most. There are some reports of diarrhea at higher doses (here, here, and here), but I don't recall anyone else getting chemical burns. There was the curious case, when PWAIN took it sublingually. PWAIN may be another outlier.

 

Anyway, it's another data point for the collection.

 

Somewhere along the line people started converting over the mouse data on dosage and said wee need to match that tissue saturation. I don't think this is necessarily true and the studies didn't take the timescales out as far as we are pushing them.

 

Diarrhea has been common to some but not all in the longecity threads and the scientific studies also reported mega doses of Na and NAM producing similar intestinal discomfort. I hate to be the voice of reason but lets be realistic, its possible people with adverse reactions are not taking the recommended dose.

 

And please don't take offense to that statement because at any dose this is useful information.

 

I'm constantly reading about multi gram per day regiments and scratching my head. NR a reducible moiety of the coenzyme NAD+. Whats that mean? It means its a precursor to the coenzyme NAD+ and as an enzyme it gets used over and over again. So if you keep pumping in more eventually you have to start excreting it as waste and thats money down the toilet literally. I do believe you hit a saturation point and beyond that I can only speculate on the side effects. AFTER EACH BOTTLE, WE RECOMMEND DISCONTINUING USAGE FOR 3-5 DAYS FOR MAXIMUM EFFECTIVENESS. Why do they print that on the Niagen bottle, (no really, don't laugh) I think this thread is helping to hit home this notion of a saturation point and diminishing returns.

 

I'm 4 plus months on the recommended dosage and still reaping the benifits. My regiment: I take 125mg sublingual after waking on an empty stomach, have one cup of coffee. I then do 20 minutes on a VersaClimber followed by 5 minutes on an inversion bed. In the evening I take 125mg sublingual and go to bed. Rinse and repeat. I haven't been taking the 3-5 days off between bottles but this thread may have convinced me I could benefit more from a break.

 

As far as any useful data from these threads thats a tough call because as a group most of us are adding other substances to the mix that might be acting on similar pathways.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Bryan

Edited by Bryan_S, 03 July 2014 - 05:02 PM.