2266 replies to this topic

[Oakman]

Fakespot is interesting, but can be 'fooled' into giving poor ratings, for example, when this happens in too many reviews:

 

How are reviewers describing this item?
better, great and noticed.

 

 

 

Our engine detects that in general the reviewers have a suspiciously positive sentiment.

 

 

 

[Harkijn]

Yes, I have been feeling suspiciously positive for the last five years or so :-)!

[Heisok]

I agree that N.R. has benefits. Perhaps very large. I have continued with higher energy than before. Fakespot is just a tool. HPN's reviews are given an A and B depending on size. As a standardized product, I would remain price sensitive for whom I buy from. Tru Niagen or HPN. F or A/B means little.

Edited by Heisok, 22 February 2018 - 07:53 PM.

[MikeDC]

There is a constant flow of people that say it helps them. Look at this forum which products have survived an initial hype? Or look at the yahoo message board. Or look at the constant flow of research into NR. The only way this constant motivation from people to write about it, argue about it, buy it, research it is because it actually works.

First anti aging drug since human existed. Instead of taking advantage of it. People are fighting it?

[able]

 

There is a constant flow of people that say it helps them. Look at this forum which products have survived an initial hype? Or look at the yahoo message board. Or look at the constant flow of research into NR. The only way this constant motivation from people to write about it, argue about it, buy it, research it is because it actually works.

First anti aging drug since human existed. Instead of taking advantage of it. People are fighting it?

 

 

 

All the studies underway ARE a great recommendation.  Researchers are a lot more informed than us, and aren't going to waste their time on something they don't believe has potential.

 

Probably more than 90% of people that argue with you here aren't fighting NR - only the massive overexaggeration of benefits that aren't (yet) proven.

 

The yahoo message board is a comical echo chamber of true believers shouting down anyone who doesn't agree  CDXC will be $100 a share soon.

Edited by able, 22 February 2018 - 08:10 PM.

[stefan_001]

 

 

There is a constant flow of people that say it helps them. Look at this forum which products have survived an initial hype? Or look at the yahoo message board. Or look at the constant flow of research into NR. The only way this constant motivation from people to write about it, argue about it, buy it, research it is because it actually works.

First anti aging drug since human existed. Instead of taking advantage of it. People are fighting it?

 

 

 

All the studies underway ARE a great recommendation.  Researchers are a lot more informed than us, and aren't going to waste their time on something they don't believe has potential.

 

Probably more than 90% of people that argue with you here aren't fighting NR - only the massive overexaggeration of benefits that aren't (yet) proven.

 

The yahoo message board is a comical echo chamber of true believers shouting down anyone who doesn't agree  CDXC will be $100 a share soon.

 

 

For a person who advocates that one should not overexaggerate your summary of the yahoo board make you somewhat of a hypocrite.... And agree on the 100USD it doesnt have to get to that 50 USD is fine :-)

 

Edited by stefan_001, 22 February 2018 - 09:13 PM.

[MikeDC]

There is a constant flow of people that say it helps them. Look at this forum which products have survived an initial hype? Or look at the yahoo message board. Or look at the constant flow of research into NR. The only way this constant motivation from people to write about it, argue about it, buy it, research it is because it actually works.

First anti aging drug since human existed. Instead of taking advantage of it. People are fighting it?

All the studies underway ARE a great recommendation. Researchers are a lot more informed than us, and aren't going to waste their time on something they don't believe has potential.

Probably more than 90% of people that argue with you here aren't fighting NR - only the massive overexaggeration of benefits that aren't (yet) proven.

The yahoo message board is a comical echo chamber of true believers shouting down anyone who doesn't agree CDXC will be $100 a share soon.

So all the personal experiences reported here are made up? Everyone in my office are taking Niagen at my recommendation. Everyone loves it. A guy who has throat cancer before felt back to the youth again. A guy dropped his triglycerides from 700 to 200 in two months. A diabetes dropped his A1C from 6.4 to 5.9 in 2 weeks. The wife of one guy who is a breast cancer survivor recovered completely and went back to work in 2 months.
$100 target for CDXC is a joke. I would say the ChromaDex management failed if CDXC only reach $1,000.

[TMNMK]

 

 

 

There is a constant flow of people that say it helps them. Look at this forum which products have survived an initial hype? Or look at the yahoo message board. Or look at the constant flow of research into NR. The only way this constant motivation from people to write about it, argue about it, buy it, research it is because it actually works.

First anti aging drug since human existed. Instead of taking advantage of it. People are fighting it?

All the studies underway ARE a great recommendation. Researchers are a lot more informed than us, and aren't going to waste their time on something they don't believe has potential.

Probably more than 90% of people that argue with you here aren't fighting NR - only the massive overexaggeration of benefits that aren't (yet) proven.

The yahoo message board is a comical echo chamber of true believers shouting down anyone who doesn't agree CDXC will be $100 a share soon.

So all the personal experiences reported here are made up? Everyone in my office are taking Niagen at my recommendation. Everyone loves it. A guy who has throat cancer before felt back to the youth again. A guy dropped his triglycerides from 700 to 200 in two months. A diabetes dropped his A1C from 6.4 to 5.9 in 2 weeks. The wife of one guy who is a breast cancer survivor recovered completely and went back to work in 2 months.
$100 target for CDXC is a joke. I would say the ChromaDex management failed if CDXC only reach $1,000.

 

 

Yeah, I agree it is most certainly the real deal, the only question is how broad of an umbrella! Since you brought up vendors, anyone else here get NR from a variety of vendors regularly? I've noticed that Elysium's packaging has become truly crummy. I had to laugh, they're now using a strip of hand-ripped packaging tape to seal a cruddy little box which I wouldn't have noticed were it not for the fact that this packaging is vastly more unprofessional than their original shipments. I think they're running out of money. And Tru Niagen's packaging has gone through the roof in quality. Anyway, I'm not here to promote one over the other - its just packaging after all, but... interesting to me nonetheless, maybe to others as well.

Edited by TMNMK, 23 February 2018 - 04:33 AM.

[StanG]

                                                                                              An excellent comparison by Dr Brenner

 

every serious biochemist knows that in order to change the concentration of nucleotides inside of cells, you deliver nucleosides. two examples: decitabine and AZT. these are both called nucleoside prodrugs because they go into cells as nucleosides and get converted to nucleotides—one leads to DNA methyltransferases getting turned over and the other leads to retroviral reverse transcriptases tetting inhibited.

NAD and NMN are nucleotides. There’s a lot of NAD, NADH, NADP and NADPH in unprocessed foods. These compunds get broken down in digesting to NMN plus the adenine nucleotide. The NMN then gets broken down to NR, NAM and NA based on how many enzymes it encounters. NR, NAM and NA are the vitamin precursors of NAD, NADH, NADP and NADPH.

is there a potential way to make NMN outside of cells? Yes, there’s extracellular NAMPT but there’s never been shown to be PRPP to run that reaction. Could NAD have an extracellular target? Almost certainly CD38. However, virtually all the biology people talk about with respect to metabolism and aging is intracellular: fuel oxidation, DNA repair, resisting reactive oxygen species damage, making steroid hormones, etc.

and we know that NAMPT expression declines in some conditions—even more interesting NRK2 goes up in some of the same conditions, such as heart failure (see Diguet).
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29217642

so there is an NAD crisis in many conditions including alcohol intoxication, overnutrion (see Trammell), DNA damage, ROS stress, and probably aging, though I would argue that there is less data on tissue NAD in aging than in some of the other stresses like DNA damage
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27230286

here’s where the disinformation comes in. We’ve clearly demonstrated that NMN is converted to NR extracellularly and that NMN cannot bypass knockout of the nrk1 and nrk2 genes
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27725675
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28752046

we’ve further shown that in head to head comparisons of neuroprotection, NR is more than 15-times more potent than NAD
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28842432

yet, i keep on meeting people—not biochemists—who are being told that NMN “slips into cells” or “gets into cells immediately” or is better than NR. today, I was sent advertising material claiming that NMN is being investigated at top institions including Nestle Institute of Health Sciences
and University of Birmingham. Um, those were papers in which we showed that NMN _does not_ bypass the NRK pathway. They even had the gall to say that some of the work was funded by the Roy J Carver Charitable Trust—sorry that’s the agency that funds me—and they claimed that work is being done at the National Institute of Aging (there is no such thing—it’s the National Institute on Aging, where Will Bohr is doing work with NR).

if plain old NMN slips into cells, then why would two companies (Mitobridge and David Sinclair’s MetroBiotech) file patents in which they developed chemistry to mask the phosphate? Note that this technology was specifically developed for decitabine and AZT before, precisely to deliver phosphorylated compounds.

so, if you learn one thing today, it should be this: vitamins are compounds without phosphates. co-enzymes are made inside cells. generally, the first step in making a coenzyme or to use anything else in the cell (like glucose) is to add a phosphate to it. you can’t deliver the phosphorylated compounds to cells unless you do very fancy chemistry to it

best,

Charles Brenner, PhD



 

[able]

                                                                                              An excellent comparison by Dr Brenner

 

if plain old NMN slips into cells, then why would two companies (Mitobridge and David Sinclair’s MetroBiotech) file patents in which they developed chemistry to mask the phosphate? Note that this technology was specifically developed for decitabine and AZT before, precisely to deliver phosphorylated compounds.





 

 

Clearly, plain old NMN does slip into cells.  Perhaps it does convert to NR first, so I guess he really meant "directly into cells".  It doesn't seem to slow it down too much, as oral NMN makes it into tissues faster than oral NR.

 

Why would Sinclair file the patents?

 

1.  To make money - since he can't patent "plain old NMN"

 

2.  To make money - As his derivative could be more effective at entering cells, or more effective in other ways.

 

Neither of those reasons imply that Sinclair feels NMN is not effective as it is.  Supposedly he takes it himself and gives to his family, so he does think it has some benefit.

Edited by able, 25 February 2018 - 10:29 PM.

[MikeDC]

An excellent comparison by Dr Brenner

if plain old NMN slips into cells, then why would two companies (Mitobridge and David Sinclair’s MetroBiotech) file patents in which they developed chemistry to mask the phosphate? Note that this technology was specifically developed for decitabine and AZT before, precisely to deliver phosphorylated compounds.

Clearly, plain old NMN does slip into cells. Perhaps it does convert to NR first, so I guess he really meant "directly into cells". It doesn't seem to slow it down too much, as oral NMN makes it into tissues faster than oral NR.

Why would Sinclair file the patents?

1. To make money - since he can't patent "plain old NMN"

2. To make money - As his derivative could be more effective at entering cells, or more effective in other ways.

If NMN is better than NR, all drug companies will be running clinical trials now and every company will offer NMN as a drug. Sinclair has no chance in winning this game because he doesn’t have deep pocket and nobody needs him to make NMN a drug.

Sinclair is probably trying to modify NMN so he can patent it.

[MikeDC]

Since NMN need to convert to NR first before entering cells, a large portion of NMN taken maybe wasted before a small portion enters cells.

[Daniel Cooper]

Since NMN need to convert to NR first before entering cells, a large portion of NMN taken maybe wasted before a small portion enters cells.

 

 

Since we're on an extended trip away from personal experiences at this point, please tell us what percentage of NMN is wasted before being converted to NR.  Otherwise it smacks of spreading FUD.

 

Then let's get back on topic of personal experiences.

[Harkijn]

                                                                                              An excellent comparison by Dr Brenner

 

Charles Brenner, PhD



 

I totally agree with Daniel Cooper that this is the personal experiences thread.

 

@Stan G, can you please place this important summary by dr. Brenner in a relevant thread, or indeed start a new topic about it.

I suppose all readers will want to know where this quote came from. Is it from a mail to you personally?

Thanks in advance.

[MikeDC]

We are off topic because a few individuals with commercial interest in NMN started pumping NMN and trash NR.

[Harkijn]

We are off topic because a few individuals with commercial interest in NMN started pumping NMN and trash NR.

Noone here wants to know why we are off topic and who did it. Just stop and go thy separate ways.

[midas]

Sorry....DELETED

Edited by midas, 26 February 2018 - 08:26 PM.

[smithx]

The point is that NMN is not patentable, so there is no motivation for anyone except possibly a university funded by a government grant to do a clinical trial on it.

Chromadex's motivation for doing clinical trials on NR is precisely because they do hold patents on its production.

This should be very clear to anyone, and should not be controversial in any way. It also says nothing about what may or may not be more effective.

If NMN is better than NR, all drug companies will be running clinical trials now and every company will offer NMN as a drug. Sinclair has no chance in winning this game because he doesn’t have deep pocket and nobody needs him to make NMN a drug.

Sinclair is probably trying to modify NMN so he can patent it.

[MikeDC]

The point is that NMN is not patentable, so there is no motivation for anyone except possibly a university funded by a government grant to do a clinical trial on it.

Chromadex's motivation for doing clinical trials on NR is precisely because they do hold patents on its production.

This should be very clear to anyone, and should not be controversial in any way. It also says nothing about what may or may not be more effective.

If NMN is better than NR, all drug companies will be running clinical trials now and every company will offer NMN as a drug. Sinclair has no chance in winning this game because he doesn’t have deep pocket and nobody needs him to make NMN a drug.

Sinclair is probably trying to modify NMN so he can patent it.

Niacin is not patentable. Yet drug companies did clinical trials and get it approved as a drug. It generates billions of revenue. If NMN is so wonderful, I am sure drug companies are running trials now.

[jjnz]

FFS !

Shall I just unsubscribe from this forum or should I just expect that every notification I get is just an off topic rant about chromadex or nmn or what Sinclair had for breakfast.

Can the next post PLEASE BE A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE REPORT !

It's not like you haven't been asked a million times already

[midas]

The point is that NMN is not patentable, so there is no motivation for anyone except possibly a university funded by a government grant to do a clinical trial on it.

Chromadex's motivation for doing clinical trials on NR is precisely because they do hold patents on its production.

This should be very clear to anyone, and should not be controversial in any way. It also says nothing about what may or may not be more effective.

 

If NMN is better than NR, all drug companies will be running clinical trials now and every company will offer NMN as a drug. Sinclair has no chance in winning this game because he doesn’t have deep pocket and nobody needs him to make NMN a drug.

Sinclair is probably trying to modify NMN so he can patent it.

 

 

smithx

 

I totally get your point with what you say.

 

But we also have a massive amount research ongoing with NR all over the world, so in the scientific community there is a huge interest in Nr other than Chromadex's financial interest...Having said that, if NMN is now as available as it seems to be (I still need convincing it is actually NMN) and if Sinclair is right, I'm sure we will see a similar thing happen with NMN.

[midas]

FFS !

Shall I just unsubscribe from this forum or should I just expect that every notification I get is just an off topic rant about chromadex or nmn or what Sinclair had for breakfast.

Can the next post PLEASE BE A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE REPORT !

It's not like you haven't been asked a million times already

 

Well, we didn't have this problem when we had the rolling NR thread that was closed down. Now we have NR threads all over the place which I personally find it hard to keep up with. I would rather come here once a day and have a thread which was easy to keep up with rather than having to look all over the place for whats going on...Just saying

[Heisok]

Midas: "Having said that, if NMN is now as available as it seems to be (I still need convincing it is actually NMN) and if Sinclair is right, I'm sure we will see a similar thing happen with NMN." I am convinced the Revgentetics is what they say. They have always been transparent. It is great that they are indicating co NMN/NR dosing might be beneficial, although no studies have been completed.

 

Revgenetics. Intertek certification. This is the second time that they have shown an independent analysis.

 

https://cdn.shopify....794413875052797

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 27 February 2018 - 10:01 PM.

[ledgf]

I've been taking NR for nine months. Seems to give me more energy, better sleep, vivid dreams. 

There was a Phase 2 study completed on NR in Colorado back in 2016... but no one has seen the results except a few investors at a closed conference. It was supposedly (according to CDXC IR) accepted by a journal back in December 2017... if they ever bother to publish it, there will be more scientific info available to argue over. Oh, and there's a 40-person study from Aarhus hospital that was completed in 2017 and isn't published. 

Maybe if we want life extension we should start by getting rid of the ten-month academic publishing delay....

Edited by ledgf, 07 March 2018 - 05:20 PM.

[smithx]

I have been taking 250mg of NR and 250mg of NMN every other day, and it seems to be better compared to 500mg of either NMN or NR, but that's just a very subjective impression so take it for what it's worth (which is basically nothing).

[ryukenden]

I have been taking 250mg of NR and 250mg of NMN every other day, and it seems to be better compared to 500mg of either NMN or NR, but that's just a very subjective impression so take it for what it's worth (which is basically nothing).

How is it better? Can you explain a bit more?

[Mind]

I take the NAD+ product from LEF which has a combination of NR (250mg), quercetin, resveratrol, a couple of fruit extracts,fisetin, and pterostilbene. 

 

The problem is that it disrupts my sleep. Anecdotally (warning - anecdotal), it seems to give me a greater overall baseline energy.

 

So just take it in the morning, right? Well, I usually fast for 17 to 20 hours a day, which includes the morning. If I take it in the afternoon when I eat and then try to go to bed at 6-7pm at night, it is trouble.

[MikeDC]

I take the NAD+ product from LEF which has a combination of NR (250mg), quercetin, resveratrol, a couple of fruit extracts,fisetin, and pterostilbene. 

 

The problem is that it disrupts my sleep. Anecdotally (warning - anecdotal), it seems to give me a greater overall baseline energy.

 

So just take it in the morning, right? Well, I usually fast for 17 to 20 hours a day, which includes the morning. If I take it in the afternoon when I eat and then try to go to bed at 6-7pm at night, it is trouble.

 

I don't see any conflict with taking NR in the morning and fasting. There is little calorie in the NR pills.

 

I would take pure NR instead of a mixture with other ingredients. Elysium basis clinical trial data was not very good due to the bad effects of Pterostillbene.

[stefan_001]

I take the NAD+ product from LEF which has a combination of NR (250mg), quercetin, resveratrol, a couple of fruit extracts,fisetin, and pterostilbene. 

 

The problem is that it disrupts my sleep. Anecdotally (warning - anecdotal), it seems to give me a greater overall baseline energy.

 

So just take it in the morning, right? Well, I usually fast for 17 to 20 hours a day, which includes the morning. If I take it in the afternoon when I eat and then try to go to bed at 6-7pm at night, it is trouble.

 

My experience is that taking it just before you go to sleep doesn't disturb. So if you go to sleep at 7pm, then take it 6:45pm

[smithx]

Subjectively, I seem to get a more long-lasting and noticeable energy bump. Bur again, that could be placebo effect.

I have been taking 250mg of NR and 250mg of NMN every other day, and it seems to be better compared to 500mg of either NMN or NR, but that's just a very subjective impression so take it for what it's worth (which is basically nothing).

How is it better? Can you explain a bit more?