2266 replies to this topic

[Boopy!]

Where is the best place to contribute to personal experience survey of Niagen or NR?    

 

If there is not somewhere on here,   just a quick review  (I am monitoring this as best I can for a disorganized type.)

 

If I had an identical cloned twin it would be the best way.   Could not convince my father and his identical twin to try it out.   

 

Taking TruNiagen (I know there are probably better but it was the best I could do for now.)

 

I take Prozac,   fish oil,  progesterone only birth control,   a multivitamin, eat VERY healthy,   am 42,    and recently stopped taking any B vitamins since I don't trust the crappy ones I have.   I need badly to take a bone builder as it runs in my gene pool.  

 

First impression on my first day:   I fuckin'  hate it at this point.  I got all hyper and spaced out and stressed.   Could be anything since unlike a lot of people on here,   I never assume what I feel is because of a medicine unless it was injected or a hormonal issue.   I really feel like crap!   I didn't before I took it,  but again,  no way to know.   I am always jealous when so many people say they know how a supplement affected them for sure.     I often feel as if the only way is to monitor blood levels and do brain scans etc. and do whatever it is for a long enough time,   and then possibly look back on documentation and decide for sure.   How do I know if something is affecting me unless I become suddenly sick,   dying,   etc.?   For example,  major elation after a great run in the sun I can tell came from said exercise.   I don't think I get this from ANY supplement ever.    I feel amazingly good after a good sleep.   Again --   NEVER had this from all the supplements I  took over many years.   I've never injected anything but am going to experiment with epitalon after trying the Niagen because I was one sick puppy for years and years.

 

After I take the whole bottle  (not at once haha)  I will perhaps know more.   Taking the prescribed dosage of 2 a day,   and this was only the first day.   If and only if I feel this way after taking it every single time I suppose will I assume it's the damn pills.   I would LOVE if anyone chimed in with opinions.   I feel like an idiot compared to most on here.   Wish I could pick all of your brains.

[MikeDC]

Where is the best place to contribute to personal experience survey of Niagen or NR?

If there is not somewhere on here, just a quick review (I am monitoring this as best I can for a disorganized type.)

If I had an identical cloned twin it would be the best way. Could not convince my father and his identical twin to try it out.

Taking TruNiagen (I know there are probably better but it was the best I could do for now.)

I take Prozac, fish oil, progesterone only birth control, a multivitamin, eat VERY healthy, am 42, and recently stopped taking any B vitamins since I don't trust the crappy ones I have. I need badly to take a bone builder as it runs in my gene pool.

First impression on my first day: I fuckin' hate it at this point. I got all hyper and spaced out and stressed. Could be anything since unlike a lot of people on here, I never assume what I feel is because of a medicine unless it was injected or a hormonal issue. I really feel like crap! I didn't before I took it, but again, no way to know. I am always jealous when so many people say they know how a supplement affected them for sure. I often feel as if the only way is to monitor blood levels and do brain scans etc. and do whatever it is for a long enough time, and then possibly look back on documentation and decide for sure. How do I know if something is affecting me unless I become suddenly sick, dying, etc.? For example, major elation after a great run in the sun I can tell came from said exercise. I don't think I get this from ANY supplement ever. I feel amazingly good after a good sleep. Again -- NEVER had this from all the supplements I took over many years. I've never injected anything but am going to experiment with epitalon after trying the Niagen because I was one sick puppy for years and years.

After I take the whole bottle (not at once haha) I will perhaps know more. Taking the prescribed dosage of 2 a day, and this was only the first day. If and only if I feel this way after taking it every single time I suppose will I assume it's the damn pills. I would LOVE if anyone chimed in with opinions. I feel like an idiot compared to most on here. Wish I could pick all of your brains.

Take it easy first. Take only one pill for a week or two. If you bad bad health, your may feel uncomfortable when your body is trying to fix things up.

[Nate-2004]

I don't know about TruNiagen brand, all concerns aside about NR vs. NAM+R, I've found the HPN brand to be the best option, board member Bryan_S has a whole locked up thread about Niagen so I'd read through there, he's also got a group buy thread for cost savings. Time of day matters though and so does your combination with diet and other supplements.

 

Niagen has had a wide range of effects on people and I wonder if this is related to their diet or if it's their genes. I've been taking it for the better part of 2 years now, though inconsistently, and have had nothing but positive effects with it so long as I take it either first thing in the morning or the last thing before bed.

 

Multivitamins are notorious for their lack of quality ingredients. While they simplify things, they are best left out. If you want a B-Complex that is very well put together in terms of dosages and quality, I'd go with Doctor's Best. The key point being that it not only uses methylfolate instead of folic acid, but it uses the correct dosage of 400mcg. 

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Also Boopy, there is the possibility that the issue is fissioned mitochondria which NAM induces. Considering that Niagen could just be NAM+Ribose stabilized in a salt and (possibly) broken down in the gut (according to a single mouse study from the 80's), it might be that what you are experiencing is quality control and a loss in dysfunctional mitochondria, which can be a good thing. However, excess fission can result in more oxidative damage to mitochondria, disabling OXPHOS due to fewer loops, loops that are usually protective). Any loss in mitochondrial load would result in fatigue from a loss in ATP.  Try a fusion protocol for a while, eat plenty of broccoli and maybe even take BroccoMax. Sulforaphane will help with fusion. Do aerobic exercise, HIIT perhaps, get some lactic acid buildup, add in some PQQ if you want, maybe even a 4 minute ice bath at 4 degrees celsius, that will help with biogenesis (the reproduction of more mitochondria). Then come back to Niagen in a week or two and see how it affects you then.  I know HPN is sourced from Chromadex because of the recent price hike no thanks to the f'ing patent system, the enabler of monopoly and thus the source of many expensive healthcare woes, so with HPN you're guaranteed to get the real thing at least.

 

The other possibility is the idea (theory?) of undermethylation, just due to the B3 aspect of Niagen. I'd give this less weight because it's not well supported, but the fact that you stopped taking your B-complex could be a clue there.

 

Right now there is just not enough research on Niagen to draw anything conclusive about its anti-aging effects and whether the resulting boost in SIRT will help with preventing DNA damage or mitochondrial dysfunction. Does it raise NAD+? Yes. That much we know. So does NAM though. You're the same age as me roughly, I'm 43, we can afford a 10 year wait for more understanding on this, or perhaps even something that addresses the more upstream problem of lost NAD+. Niagen is after all only a bandaid, it does not address the root cause by any means. Plus NAD+ isn't the only issue with aging.

 

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 14 March 2018 - 09:20 PM.

[MikeDC]

Also Boopy, there is the possibility that the issue is fissioned mitochondria which NAM induces. Considering that Niagen could just be NAM+Ribose stabilized in a salt and (possibly) broken down in the gut (according to a single mouse study from the 80's), it might be that what you are experiencing is quality control and a loss in dysfunctional mitochondria, which can be a good thing. However, excess fission can result in more oxidative damage to mitochondria, disabling OXPHOS due to fewer loops, loops that are usually protective). Any loss in mitochondrial load would result in fatigue from a loss in ATP. Try a fusion protocol for a while, eat plenty of broccoli and maybe even take BroccoMax. Sulforaphane will help with fusion. Do aerobic exercise, HIIT perhaps, get some lactic acid buildup, add in some PQQ if you want, maybe even a 4 minute ice bath at 4 degrees celsius, that will help with biogenesis (the reproduction of more mitochondria). Then come back to Niagen in a week or two and see how it affects you then. I know HPN is sourced from Chromadex because of the recent price hike no thanks to the f'ing patent system, the enabler of monopoly and thus the source of many expensive healthcare woes, so with HPN you're guaranteed to get the real thing at least.

The other possibility is the idea (theory?) of undermethylation, just due to the B3 aspect of Niagen. I'd give this less weight because it's not well supported, but the fact that you stopped taking your B-complex could be a clue there.

Right now there is just not enough research on Niagen to draw anything conclusive about its anti-aging effects and whether the resulting boost in SIRT will help with preventing DNA damage or mitochondrial dysfunction. Does it raise NAD+? Yes. That much we know. So does NAM though. You're the same age as me roughly, I'm 43, we can afford a 10 year wait for more understanding on this, or perhaps even something that addresses the more upstream problem of lost NAD+. Niagen is after all only a bandaid, it does not address the root cause by any means. Plus NAD+ isn't the only issue with aging.

Disfunctional mitochandria are most likely due to too much fission. Niagen will help to induce more fusion and balanced mitochandria dynamics. This will restore mitochandria quality control and initially kill off large number of bad mitochandria. Eventually you will get more energy due to balanced mitochandria dynamics. Don’t listen the nonsense of manipulating mitochandria.

[MikeDC]

Also Boopy, there is the possibility that the issue is fissioned mitochondria which NAM induces. Considering that Niagen could just be NAM+Ribose stabilized in a salt and (possibly) broken down in the gut (according to a single mouse study from the 80's), it might be that what you are experiencing is quality control and a loss in dysfunctional mitochondria, which can be a good thing. However, excess fission can result in more oxidative damage to mitochondria, disabling OXPHOS due to fewer loops, loops that are usually protective). Any loss in mitochondrial load would result in fatigue from a loss in ATP. Try a fusion protocol for a while, eat plenty of broccoli and maybe even take BroccoMax. Sulforaphane will help with fusion. Do aerobic exercise, HIIT perhaps, get some lactic acid buildup, add in some PQQ if you want, maybe even a 4 minute ice bath at 4 degrees celsius, that will help with biogenesis (the reproduction of more mitochondria). Then come back to Niagen in a week or two and see how it affects you then. I know HPN is sourced from Chromadex because of the recent price hike no thanks to the f'ing patent system, the enabler of monopoly and thus the source of many expensive healthcare woes, so with HPN you're guaranteed to get the real thing at least.

The other possibility is the idea (theory?) of undermethylation, just due to the B3 aspect of Niagen. I'd give this less weight because it's not well supported, but the fact that you stopped taking your B-complex could be a clue there.

Right now there is just not enough research on Niagen to draw anything conclusive about its anti-aging effects and whether the resulting boost in SIRT will help with preventing DNA damage or mitochondrial dysfunction. Does it raise NAD+? Yes. That much we know. So does NAM though. You're the same age as me roughly, I'm 43, we can afford a 10 year wait for more understanding on this, or perhaps even something that addresses the more upstream problem of lost NAD+. Niagen is after all only a bandaid, it does not address the root cause by any means. Plus NAD+ isn't the only issue with aging.

Disfunctional mitochandria are most likely due to too much fission. Niagen will help to induce more fusion and balanced mitochandria dynamics. This will restore mitochandria quality control and initially kill off large number of bad mitochandria. Eventually you will get more energy due to balanced mitochandria dynamics. Don’t listen to the nonsense of manipulating mitochandria dynamics. You can only get hurt from artificially pushing extremes in either fusion or fission. What you need is balanced fusion and fission in dynamics equilibrium.

[Boopy!]

Thanks for the advice --  yes it's so hard figuring out which supplements are not only not harmful but also actually WORK.   Will def.  check out Doctor's Best.   I honestly have no clue about anything to do with B vitamins or for that matter most.   However like I said the one thing I do right is eat insanely healthy,   as in,   I'm one of the weird people who loves vegetables and healthy crap.   If I ate any more broccoli  (cauliflower is in fact my favorite food besides yogurt)   I'd turn into a tree.   It's kind of funny,  my puppy even loves vegetables and takes broccoli to her "treat spot"  the way some dogs do with biscuits.   So I kind of know that healthy eating is simply not a worry as far as how a supplement works.   I have no allergies except possibly dust,   and never seem to get colds or sick for some reason.   My illnesses are more of the mental variety -- severe depression that rendered me bedridden for a long time,  a severe eating disorder now in remission,   and former alcohol abuse.   Of course these all have severe and usually lasting effects.   

 

I am interested in being my own guinea pig and taking it tomorrow.   So I will not be "taking a break"  or adding in other supplements except possibly the Doctor's Best,   and tbh I really am needing magnesium or SOMETHING to calm me down at night.   Something not in pill form,   something more "natural."   Plus I may also add in a bone building formula because I'm sure I need it  (former runner and anorexic,   high risk.)   

 

I wish I could have afforded bloodwork before trying this but I can possibly now,   and am going to do the walk in clinic across the street from my work.   My doctor is a dick and only would order a few things like thyroid,  D,   and a liver enzyme test (for possible liver damage),   plus a few other things.   I read all the different possible things to test and really wish I could just add in growth hormone and a few others,   haha.    How I wish I dated a  brilliant scientist. but I live in the rural South....so....

 

Anyway thank you so much!   I could stay up all night on here learning more and have to stop myself.   In a few hours,   because I also wanna read the thread you told me about.

[TMNMK]

[I've deleted my thoughts on doctors in the south, because it was sort of off-topic, and despite being based on experience, some may find my thoughts offensive - which they are, and are meant to be]. 

 

Suffice to say Boopy, that if I were you I would stick with NR for some time period that gives you ample evidence. I've heard people say that it has helped with depression among a myriad of other benefits. As was suggested, maybe cut the dose in half if you don't feel good taking it at the recommended dosage. If you try that for some time, you might be able to inch up a bit into the recommended dosage or you will at least know that it perhaps does not cooperate with your body specifically.

Edited by TMNMK, 15 March 2018 - 01:06 PM.

[midas]

Just take one a day (125mg) for a week or so then up that to two. If you feel like two a day is to much for you just stick with one. One is better than none.
I take it first thing in the morning about 15 minutes before breakfast.

 

It may just be that your NAD pool is really low and a surge caused by taking two per day is causing you to feel a little odd. Softly softly catchy monkey as we say over here...

[PAMPAGUY]

Therapeutic Potential of NAD-Boosting

Molecules: The In Vivo Evidence

 

 

Here is an excellent paper out of Harvard  with Dr. David Sinclair on NAD precussors including NR.  Have included the unlocking website so everyone can read entire article.

 

You can access it on http://sci-hub.tw

 

Search for the PMID # (29514064) not the title.

 

 

 

[bluemoon]

   

My friend's mother in Tokyo had onset dementia and poor mobility when I last saw her four years ago when she was 69. Unfortunately, last November she fell and hit her head on a sidewalk which added a mild brain injury to the earlier level of dementia where she is now in full dementia, so I started this trial with my friend knowing that NR was not likely to change anything but worth a try.

 

My friend told me that after the concusion her mother repeats herself, often isn't aware she is back at home and wakes up two or three times a night to use the bathroom. My friend is woken by a sensor in her room so gets up to help her mother to get to the bathroom four feet away from the mother's bedroom.

February 20 · 

 

Phase I of my NR trial results are in:

 

* location: Tokyo

* human trial participant, n = 1 (my friend's mother)

* age 73

* dementia, poor mobility

 

The trial is to run 9 weeks beginning with one week of NR at 125 mg (25% increase in NAD+), followed by four weeks of NR at 250 mg (40% increase in NAD+) and then four weeks at 375 mg (around 50% increase in NAD+)

 

Results after 10 days:

 

1) After taking 125 mg in the morning for three days, there were no changes in how the mother speaks with repetition. I asked about waking at night and she said: "Oh! My mother no longer wakes at night, so I don't have to help her." This makes sense since when I took 125 mg of NR at first, I had a deep sleep with lucid dreams shortly after I started 125 mg of NR. The mother had awoken a little less a week before taking NR 

 

2) I talked with my friend today, and she said after four days at 250 mg a day there are no changes except... she told me her mother might wake up to use the bathroom but only once and can walk on her own that short distance. (My friend has not had to help her mother walk the three feet to the bathroom since and gets a full night sleep.

 

March 13

 

Today my friend in Tokyo called and said that her mother, taking 375 mg of NR each morning, left her apartment while her sister, who helps the mother in the afternoon, fell asleep and forgot lock the door from the inside that keeps the mother from going outside without help walking down four flights of stairs.

 

The mother with dementia went down four flights of stairs by herself, which was a scary thought, and got on a wrong train at first before getting to her cousin's apartment. After talking with her cousin, she managed to return to her apartment OK, but late.

 

Again, I can't say to what extent NR is a reason for this much increase in mobility, balance and strength and not just normal healing from a brain injury. But my friend noticed there was no improvement in her ability to walk for 3 months until she started taking NR in the 4th month.

My friend's mother in Tokyo had onset dementia and poor mobility when I last saw her four years ago when she was 69. Unfortunately, last November she fell and hit her head on a sidewalk which added a mild brain injury to the earlier level of dementia where she is now in full dementia, so I started this trial with my friend knowing that NR was not likely to change anything.

 

My friend told me that after the concusion her mother repeats herself, often isn't aware she is back at home and wakes up two or three times a night to use the bathroom. My friend is woken by a sensor in her room so gets up to help her mother to get to the bathroom four feet away from the mother's bedroom.

[TMNMK]

Wow that is so eerily familiar that it sends chills. I am so sorry to hear that your friend in Tokyo and their mother is going through this.

 

 

The mother with dementia went down four flights of stairs by herself, which was a scary thought, and got on a wrong train at first before getting to her cousin's apartment. After talking with her cousin, she managed to return to her apartment OK, but late.

 

 

This is absolutely astonishing though! Having seen someone very close to me (my grandmother) go through this process from beginning to end (who has since passed), I can say with some very strong confidence that this is almost a miracle. I cannot possibly imagine my grandmother going from the state you describe, having to be helped to a bathroom three feet away (exact same situation, yep) going to a state of being able to walk down flights of stairs, get on the wrong train (any train, wow!), and then further getting on the right train to get somewhere? Unimaginable.

 

Either NR is truly helping her (which I deeply hope), or she has just undergone some kind of magical reversal, the mind is capable of surprise at every corner. I hope her progress continues, please if you don't mind, keep us updated regardless of whether the symptoms worsen or get better. It would be very important to know either way for others out there who are facing a similar situation.

 

I wish I would have known of NR prior to what transpired with my grandmother. Good grief @bluemoon you've almost brought me to tears.

Edited by TMNMK, 30 March 2018 - 04:43 PM.

[bluemoon]

 

Either NR is truly helping her (which I deeply hope), or she has just undergone some kind of magical reversal, the mind is capable of surprise at every corner. I hope her progress continues, please if you don't mind, keep us updated regardless of whether the symptoms worsen or get better. It would be very important to know either way for others out there who are facing a similar situation. 

 

I'm sorry to hear your grandmother is gone. One of my grandmothers had dementia from 93 and worsened until she died at 96 while my other grandmother was sharp as a tack and funny until she died at 106 a couple of years ago. What a difference.

 

I accidently forgot to delete the repeated part at the end, and it was too late to edit that out.

 

The above is a slightly edited version of two posts I made on Facebook. I tried to convey the difference in the mother's condition when I last saw her at 69 and the reports I'd get from last fall at 73 when she fell and spent two months in the hospital including a month of rehab. Most days the mother would ask my friend why she never visited and my friend would tell her that she visits every day, so not encouraging. I wantetd to send NR right away in November but my friend said the hospital probabably wouldn't let her. (Well, sneak it in!)

 

I talked to my friend a couple of days ago, and she says her mother walks well. I don't think that means that she walks like a healthy 73 year old but maybe more like she did when not walking so well four years ago. Anyway, I'll update any changes.

[able]

Very encouraging Bluemoon.  Have you tried to convince your friend to up the dosage further?  Since the Colorado study and most other now are going to 1,000 mg or higher, it seems safe and may be more effective.    375 mg seems quite conservative now.

Edited by able, 30 March 2018 - 05:36 PM.

[TMNMK]

 

 

Either NR is truly helping her (which I deeply hope), or she has just undergone some kind of magical reversal, the mind is capable of surprise at every corner. I hope her progress continues, please if you don't mind, keep us updated regardless of whether the symptoms worsen or get better. It would be very important to know either way for others out there who are facing a similar situation. 

 

I'm sorry to hear your grandmother is gone. One of my grandmothers had dementia from 93 and worsened until she died at 96 while my other grandmother was sharp as a tack and funny until she died at 106 a couple of years ago. What a difference.

 

I accidently forgot to delete the repeated part at the end, and it was too late to edit that out.

 

The above is a slightly edited version of two posts I made on Facebook. I tried to convey the difference in the mother's condition when I last saw her at 69 and the reports I'd get from last fall at 73 when she fell and spent two months in the hospital including a month of rehab. Most days the mother would ask my friend why she never visited and my friend would tell her that she visits every day, so not encouraging. I wantetd to send NR right away in November but my friend said the hospital probabably wouldn't let her. (Well, sneak it in!)

 

I talked to my friend a couple of days ago, and she says her mother walks well. I don't think that means that she walks like a healthy 73 year old but maybe more like she did when not walking so well four years ago. Anyway, I'll update any changes.

 

 

Thanks, yeah I know, the memory loss is so hard and not just on the person going through it. If NAD supplements, NR or anything at all can help with that whatsoever, it would be a miracle. I truly hope it helps her!

[MikeDC]

The cost of hiring someone to take care of a dementia patient for one month will buy 10 year supply of NR. If you can reduce a person’s time on dementia by 10 years, the amount of money saved will be big, $432,000.

[bluemoon]

Very encouraging Bluemoon.  Have you tried to convince your friend to up the dosage further?  Since the Colorado study and most other now are going to 1,000 mg or higher, it seems safe and may be more effective.    375 mg seems quite conservative now.

 

I initially was going to tell my friend to ramp up to 500 mg a day but then the Elysium study came out that showed NAD+ levels for that amount dropped from an initial 90% at 4 weeks to 55% after 8 weeks so that at 375 mg, the NAD levels will hopefully remain around 45% to 50%. NR is sold by Thorne in Japan but is double what I pay so I send it to her. And right now paying for my 250 mg in addition to her 1,000 mg a day is pricey. If I knew 1,000 mg a day was helpful beyond the 375mg, I'd go up that high but again, the Elysium study implies anything above 500 mg a day likely doesn't help much.

 

The largest gain is 0 mg to 125 mg where a Chromadex study showed NAD+ increased around 25%. Then Elysium showed 250 mg increased that by 15 percentage points to 40%. Finally, it showed a likely gain 15 additional percentage points to 55% at 500 mg.  It looks like diminishing returns are large going from 375 mg to 500 mg - around a 7% increase.

 

(Please let me know if the above is incorrect.)

Edited by bluemoon, 30 March 2018 - 06:17 PM.

[hav]

 

Very encouraging Bluemoon.  Have you tried to convince your friend to up the dosage further?  Since the Colorado study and most other now are going to 1,000 mg or higher, it seems safe and may be more effective.    375 mg seems quite conservative now.

 

I initially was going to tell my friend to ramp up to 500 mg a day but then the Elysium study came out that showed NAD+ levels for that amount dropped from an initial 90% at 4 weeks to 55% after 8 weeks so that at 375 mg, the NAD levels will hopefully remain around 45% to 50%. NR is sold by Thorne in Japan but is double what I pay so I send it to her. And right now paying for my 250 mg in addition to her 1,000 mg a day is pricey. If I knew 1,000 mg a day was helpful beyond the 375mg, I'd go up that high but again, the Elysium study implies anything above 500 mg a day likely doesn't help much.

 

The largest gain is 0 mg to 125 mg where a Chromadex study showed NAD+ increased around 25%. Then Elysium showed 250 mg increased that by 15 percentage points to 40%. Finally, it showed a likely gain 15 additional percentage points to 55% at 500 mg.  It looks like diminishing returns are large going from 375 mg to 500 mg - around a 7% increase.

 

(Please let me know if the above is incorrect.)

 

 

I have to agree with able generally on the dosage.  Most of the studies I've seen use dosages translating to 2 to 5 grams a day in humans depending on the weight of the subject, which in this case I'd expect would be on the low end of the range. My own mom died with dementia in her 80's although my dad lived to be close to 99 so it's of some personal concern to me.  I would suggest researching and also supplementing with the inexpensive L-serine amino acid which I find to be an excellent add-in to disperse and speed the dissolution of NR and other water soluble supplements.  I take NR as a powder mixed into water and find that it doesn't dissolve particularly well by itself without a blender whereas if I grind or chop in an equal amount of l-serine it dissolves with simple shaking or stirring.

 

Howard
 

Edited by hav, 30 March 2018 - 07:42 PM.

[sthira]

Not casting shadows on possibilities for NR, but I have an anecdote that sounds similar to your friend's, with my grandfather, who had dementia. We were very close. And what I noticed about his behavior was that sometimes he would be extremely lucid, just like old times, all wild-eyed and fun, and I'd be like oh, he's cool, nothing's wrong here...

But then he'd slip off, somewhere he'd go inside, he'd forget, he'd repeat himself, he'd mumble, have crazy bouts of sudden anger, then he might turn silent and inward and would seem to lose motor functions -- such a fucking awful disease. Then he'd be normal again.

What I'm saying is in my experience it wouldn't seem all that unusual if one day my grandfather -- 97 -- wandered off onto the subway, carrying his dementia along, and later returned unscathed. That might be followed the next day -- or even moments later -- of near complete disability.

If NR helps it'd be wonderful. He died before anyone knew to try. I'd give it to him now, though, certainly, and take detailed notes. I suppose there's no clinical trials for NR in AD cases yet, right?

[MikeDC]

The effects you see on dementia are mostly due to rejuvenation of axon cell functions. Axons died earlier will not come back. So I would expect a quick recovery of cognition after a few months and then become stagnant. Full recovery of Alzheimer’s patients is not possible because the died axons are not coming back even if you remove all the plaques. Again the treatment for Alzheimer’s is prevention.

[bluemoon]

Not casting shadows on possibilities for NR, but I have an anecdote that sounds similar to your friend's, with my grandfather, who had dementia. We were very close. And what I noticed about his behavior was that sometimes he would be extremely lucid, just like old times, all wild-eyed and fun, and I'd be like oh, he's cool, nothing's wrong here...

But then he'd slip off, somewhere he'd go inside, he'd forget, he'd repeat himself, he'd mumble, have crazy bouts of sudden anger, then he might turn silent and inward and would seem to lose motor functions -- such a fucking awful disease. Then he'd be normal again.
 

 

Right. I tried to emphasize that I don't know to what extent NR is helping the mother but simply based on Elysium's study we do know that NR is helping with mobility, even if only a bit. By anecdote, we have a good idea that NR induces deeper sleep and so wakes up much less often at night to use the bathroom. I forgot to add that the mother continues a water walking therapy 3 to 4 times a week so there are likely other causes for improvement, yet I was surprised how sudden the improvements have been after taking NR compared to almost no change at all until NR. Again, the mother did use the bathroom in the middle of the night maybe a week before taking just 125 mg (25% NAD+ increase) when soon after my friend took away the mother's room sensor because she both woke up less and could walk on her own. In general, I'm a skeptic at heart, but the reason I sent my friend NR is the possibility that even minor improvements could improve the mother's health but also greatly improve my friend's life as a care giver.     

 

My friend's mother seems quite different than your grandfather in the sense that as long as I've known her from 2012 when visiting my friend, she has been in clear onset dementia where I could speak with her a little, never long conversations, she has never been "all wide and fun".

[bluemoon]

 

 

I have to agree with able generally on the dosage.  Most of the studies I've seen use dosages translating to 2 to 5 grams a day in humans depending on the weight of the subject, which in this case I'd expect would be on the low end of the range. My own mom died with dementia in her 80's although my dad lived to be close to 99 so it's of some personal concern to me.  I would suggest researching and also supplementing with the inexpensive L-serine amino acid which I find to be an excellent add-in to disperse and speed the dissolution of NR and other water soluble supplements.  I take NR as a powder mixed into water and find that it doesn't dissolve particularly well by itself without a blender whereas if I grind or chop in an equal amount of l-serine it dissolves with simple shaking or stirring.

 

Howard
 

 

 

Thanks for this.

 

So far I haven't seen a human trial that is on going that uses more than 1,000 mg a day. The Mayo Clinic trial for brain injuries uses 750 mg on football players who have had one concussion. Yet isn't there pretty good evidence from the Elysium trial that 500 mg converges close to the 250 mg dose, 55% versus 40% NAD+ rise? And we don't know after the 8th week if it falls even further from 90% to 55% to 40% to 50%. 

[MikeDC]

500mg seems to be a good dose.

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[MikeDC]

Not casting shadows on possibilities for NR, but I have an anecdote that sounds similar to your friend's, with my grandfather, who had dementia. We were very close. And what I noticed about his behavior was that sometimes he would be extremely lucid, just like old times, all wild-eyed and fun, and I'd be like oh, he's cool, nothing's wrong here...

But then he'd slip off, somewhere he'd go inside, he'd forget, he'd repeat himself, he'd mumble, have crazy bouts of sudden anger, then he might turn silent and inward and would seem to lose motor functions -- such a fucking awful disease. Then he'd be normal again.

Right. I tried to emphasize that I don't know to what extent NR is helping the mother but simply based on Elysium's study we do know that NR is helping with mobility, even if only a bit. By anecdote, we have a good idea that NR induces deeper sleep and so wakes up much less often at night to use the bathroom. I forgot to add that the mother continues a water walking therapy 3 to 4 times a week so there are likely other causes for improvement, yet I was surprised how sudden the improvements have been after taking NR compared to almost no change at all until NR. Again, the mother did use the bathroom in the middle of the night maybe a week before taking just 125 mg (25% NAD+ increase) when soon after my friend took away the mother's room sensor because she both woke up less and could walk on her own. In general, I'm a skeptic at heart, but the reason I sent my friend NR is the possibility that even minor improvements could improve the mother's health but also greatly improve my friend's life as a care giver.

My friend's mother seems quite different than your grandfather in the sense that as long as I've known her from 2012 when visiting my friend, she has been in clear onset dementia where I could speak with her a little, never long conversations, she has never been "all wide and fun".

NR definitely helps both mobility and cognition. A friend’s father told me that after taking Niagen his control of fingers returned and his brain fog disappeared. He is 80 year old.

[hav]

Thanks for this.

 

So far I haven't seen a human trial that is on going that uses more than 1,000 mg a day. The Mayo Clinic trial for brain injuries uses 750 mg on football players who have had one concussion. Yet isn't there pretty good evidence from the Elysium trial that 500 mg converges close to the 250 mg dose, 55% versus 40% NAD+ rise? And we don't know after the 8th week if it falls even further from 90% to 55% to 40% to 50%.

 

The big news on the 1,000 mg/day study was that it was well tolerated and apparently safe. I take around 500 mg/day and might go higher if I can afford it.

[bluemoon]

 

Thanks for this.

 

So far I haven't seen a human trial that is on going that uses more than 1,000 mg a day. The Mayo Clinic trial for brain injuries uses 750 mg on football players who have had one concussion. Yet isn't there pretty good evidence from the Elysium trial that 500 mg converges close to the 250 mg dose, 55% versus 40% NAD+ rise? And we don't know after the 8th week if it falls even further from 90% to 55% to 40% to 50%.

 

The big news on the 1,000 mg/day study was that it was well tolerated and apparently safe. I take around 500 mg/day and might go higher if I can afford it.

 

 

A previous study showed 1000mg is safe but also a short duration - I forget how long although Charles Brenner reported on his use of 1,000 mg for a week. Wouldn't you want to know that 1000 mg raises NR more than 500 mg? Right now, it looks like you'd be paying around $2.50 a day for 500 mg to get a 55% NAD+ rise and $5.00 a day for 1000 mg and a 60% rise or maybe the same 55% rise over a longer time period.

 

Since the Elysium study only shows falling NAD+ levels for 4 weeks after rising 4 weeks, it is possible NAD+ drops down to 45% or 40%. Brenner says he went from 250 mg to 500 mg, so that is a hint that the sustained level is higher than 40% for 500 mg.

[Harkijn]

bluemoon said:

 

'A previous study showed 1000mg is safe but also a short duration - I forget how long although Charles Brenner reported on his use of 1,000 mg for a week. Wouldn't you want to know that 1000 mg raises NR more than 500 mg? Right now, it looks like you'd be paying around $2.50 a day for 500 mg to get a 55% NAD+ rise and $5.00 a day for 1000 mg and a 60% rise or maybe the same 55% rise over a longer time period.

 

Since the Elysium study only shows falling NAD+ levels for 4 weeks after rising 4 weeks, it is possible NAD+ drops down to 45% or 40%. Brenner says he went from 250 mg to 500 mg, so that is a hint that the sustained level is higher than 40% for 500 mg.'

 

I agree with this. And since Brenner mentioned this I went from 250mg to 500mg. Without 'noticing' anything btw.

 

 

 

[MikeDC]

I started to lose weight after increasing dose from 250mg to 375mg. But other benefits are with 250mg. I have increased to 500mg and have not seen further weight loss or other improvements. It doesn’t mean it is not helping more inside the body that I can’t feel.

[bluemoon]

April 1

 

A brief update about my friend's mother who has been taking 250 mg of NR (a week at 375 mg) since Feb 15 after a fall and concusion last November.

 

Recently, the mother with dementia has become much quieter as I remember her from a few years ago. For months she would speak a *lot* and repeat the same thing over and over and according to my friend, she thinks this much more like normal, even compared to a week ago. (I had known she repeated herself but didn't realize the extent of how much she talked until today.) I don't know if this would have happened without her taking NR or not. 

Edited by bluemoon, 01 April 2018 - 05:28 PM.

[TMNMK]

That sounds like positive news @bluemoon if I'm reading that correctly! One thing I noticed is that stories from my grandma's past were repeated frequently and as things got worse the stories she would talk about became shorter and the people in them were confused with people in other stories. Like she would more often put her father in stories that were actually about her husband and sometimes vice versa. As things continued to get worse, the stories became fewer and shorter until they were just a word or two and a smile when she was prompted. Earlier on in the illness she had thought that my wife and I were brother and sister, that she was her daughter, so you can imagine the freak out moment she had when we kissed! So it became that no PDA was allowed around grandma.