• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Simple Description of Consciousness

consciousness mind the hard problem

  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#1 Brafarality

  • Guest
  • 684 posts
  • 42
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 17 April 2014 - 03:17 PM


I would really like to read some genuine attempts to describe consciousness that go beyond "subjective experience",  "self awareness", "executive control" and the like.

 

I mean I want something that actually makes a spirited effort to describe it in some exactitude. Like, what is it? What are its properties and characteristics? Can it be seen, measured, anything like that?

 

I have no guess, but it would need to describe it with some empirical aspect, and be detached. Could not devolve into monism vs. dualism or materialism vs. dualism. But, just get a description out there cause I have not come across one yet and I have read a bunch on this topic.

 

And, on a second note, I wonder if there is a measurable brain difference between those who are baffled by p-zombies and those who think they do not pose a dilemma. It's as if some are truly in awe of the premise and others think it's rubbish. and it's definitely not IQ correlated. How can this thought experiment create such a dichotomy? I think it goes beyond culture and religion and to more physical differences in thought, like the difference between eye color. Something that could be measured.


Edited by Brafarality, 17 April 2014 - 03:21 PM.


#2 platypus

  • Guest
  • 2,386 posts
  • 240
  • Location:Italy

Posted 17 April 2014 - 03:29 PM

I postulate that since we're not philosophical zombies, such zombies do not exist. If they did, consciousness would be completely superfluous in natural selection and being or not being conscious would not change anybody's behavior one bit. 



#3 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 17 April 2014 - 03:45 PM

I've given an understanding of it on another topic

http://www.longecity...me/#entry656651

Edited by addx, 17 April 2014 - 04:40 PM.


#4 johnross47

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 189
  • Location:table 42 in the restaurant at the end of the universe

Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:49 PM

Try Antonio Demasio, "Self Comes To Mind; Constructing the conscious brain." 

He is making a serious attempt to apply all the evidence available to produce a model of how consciousness works, and distinguishes between Self and Mind. Some background in neurology or psychology or biology would make it easier but with google to hand the ordinary layman can work though it.



#5 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:04 PM

Great topic
Some interesting sources on the study of consciousness.

http://www.closertot...Materialism-/77

On this page see consciousness.

http://www.closertotruth.com/

I like my friend David Chalmers as well.





 



#6 rwac

  • Member
  • 4,764 posts
  • 61
  • Location:Dimension X

Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:06 PM

Mae Wan-Ho might be worth reading.
 

 

Quantum Coherence and Conscious Experience

Abstract

I propose that quantum coherence is the basis of living organization and can also account for key features of conscious experience - the "unity of intentionality", our inner identity of the singular "I", the simultaneous binding and segmentation of features in the perceptive act, the distributed, holographic nature of memory, and the distinctive quality of each experienced occasion.

 

 

 



#7 Brafarality

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 684 posts
  • 42
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:28 PM

Thanks everyone for the information:

Damasio, Chalmers, Stapp, Blackmore, Dennett. Have read good selections by all of them, but I guess they think the request is naive or don't focus on it, thinking it of lesser importance. I guess I was looking for something of a quasi-scientific description, like one might use to describe a force field or just something like that - something empirical, if it is even possible.

 

I do believe that consciousness exists via natural laws, but do not believe the laws of nature we understand now accounts for it. It  I don't believe the brain fully accounts for it, but something in molecules and energy may be involved somehow...seems they have to be since the mind is at least correlated with the brain, if not caused by it. There is a serious relationship there.



#8 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 18 April 2014 - 07:55 AM

Thanks everyone for the information:
Damasio, Chalmers, Stapp, Blackmore, Dennett. Have read good selections by all of them, but I guess they think the request is naive or don't focus on it, thinking it of lesser importance. I guess I was looking for something of a quasi-scientific description, like one might use to describe a force field or just something like that - something empirical, if it is even possible.
 
I do believe that consciousness exists via natural laws, but do not believe the laws of nature we understand now accounts for it. It  I don't believe the brain fully accounts for it, but something in molecules and energy may be involved somehow...seems they have to be since the mind is at least correlated with the brain, if not caused by it. There is a serious relationship there.


Read this topic

http://www.longecity...n-in-evolution/


I believe I have substantiated the evolution of the mind in the first post, but there's more stuff later.

Point being, there's no "field" or "special energy". When it is explained properly, there's no "wonder" about it.

#9 Brafarality

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 684 posts
  • 42
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:33 PM

 

Thanks everyone for the information:
Damasio, Chalmers, Stapp, Blackmore, Dennett. Have read good selections by all of them, but I guess they think the request is naive or don't focus on it, thinking it of lesser importance. I guess I was looking for something of a quasi-scientific description, like one might use to describe a force field or just something like that - something empirical, if it is even possible.
 
I do believe that consciousness exists via natural laws, but do not believe the laws of nature we understand now accounts for it. It  I don't believe the brain fully accounts for it, but something in molecules and energy may be involved somehow...seems they have to be since the mind is at least correlated with the brain, if not caused by it. There is a serious relationship there.


Read this topic

http://www.longecity...n-in-evolution/


I believe I have substantiated the evolution of the mind in the first post, but there's more stuff later.

Point being, there's no "field" or "special energy". When it is explained properly, there's no "wonder" about it.

 

 

Thanks for the link. Admit I didn't have the attention span to read it through thoroughly, but got to the sections to which you were likely referring.  Interesting evolutionary explanation of conscious experience (I zeroed in on the paragraph that included the explanation of mid-life adaptation of inbuilt behavior schemas), but it is not a description.

 

And, even if an explanation as to why consciousness evolved is developed, it still may not explain precisely what it is, how it is formed, and what are its properties (like an engineer may account for and describe the effects of gravity before understanding what it is in all its fundamental force weirdness). But, again, thanks for the link - some intense theorizing going on! Impressive. :)


Edited by Brafarality, 18 April 2014 - 01:36 PM.


#10 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 18 April 2014 - 03:37 PM

For me, the best-obvious proof of consciousness is as said in many threads the successive negative contrast, reward incentive downshift.

Mauricio R. Papini performed incentive downshift contrast with my suspected neurotransmitters - opioids and does point to them as the main culprits as explained in my thread.

http://www.comparati...09/4.Papini.pdf

Only mammals display this behaviour. Premammals adapt linearly to reward downshift.

The rat is frustrated by the downshift of reward. This does not happen with reptiles or fish. The frustration is the conscious reaction. Conscious means it was conscious of the expectation and reacts "consciously" to "error in prediction". The action was supposed to result with an increase in wellbeing(an increase is the first derivation of state). Predicted derivation was not achieved and this activates the higher level tier - consciousness to detect the difference in surroundings and adapt the predictive schema to do better next time.

The rat when tasting 8% sucrose is frustrated in order to detect the difference in context rather than enjoy the 8% sucrose as a reptile would. This an investment into the future, and it costs a frustration in the now. If the rat figures out why 32% was replaced by 8% he will ensure that future preparations will be always 32%. So, instead of indulging in immediate success he expands effort into figuring out how avoid the relative failure. He knows there is a possibility of 32% and 8% is a relative failure worth the trouble to correct. The response of consciousness is a learning response. It adapts prediction schemas and "downloads" them to subconscious memory during REM sleep also only performed by mammals. There is also a ratio. 10% sucrose will not cause frustration as the relative difference does not warrant investment into figuring it out.

This is consciousness. Check out "fear extinction"(in fact learning response of consciousness in response to failure). An event that arouses consciousness(such as sucrose disappointment above) causes the related fear/desire memory schema to become "volatile" or uploaded to "short term memory". During a window of average 6 hours the person can adapt the schema by trying again and succeeding or failing. After 6 hours the schema, as is, is downloaded back to long term memory with fear/desire association removed or reinforced depending on success/failure during the 6 hour window. I proclaim that opioids are the top level target for this process, NDMA and GABA are tool networks for manipulating association strength. I can't find the experiment that proved it in humans now, there are lots of studies that confirm this more or less. The person can always expose itself again to the fear, induce the memory schema into short term memory, beat the fear and thus extinct it. This ability is performed by consciousness.

For example the ability to automatically drive a car while typing texts is subconsciousness. It is the behaviour schemas adapted/learned by consciousness and downloaded as "ready" to subconscious. As they become reinforced over time the brain feels safer to engage "autopilot". The subconscious brain will increasing alert the conscious to any "running difference in prediction". The subconscious brain scans the whole retina image, not just the focus. This allows you too look at the cellphone and still notice cars that will run into you. Subconsciousness detects this as error in prediction, interrupts the conscious task by "screaming from the back of the head that something is wrong". As subconsciousness grows stronger voices can be heard. This is just a way of diverting attention to what most needs "conscious attention" for learning adaptation.

Consciousness however is limited to functioning "in the moment, in the role, in the context, objectified". A dog is always a dog. You can make it fetch 1000 times. He may get tired but he will never conclude that you're amusing yourself with him and that he should stop because he is being "used". He can not exit the role of a dog and he is conscious of everything the role/context requires so that he responds and acts like a dog. A role is always objectifying. It is the same mental state of people who in dire situations say they were out of control. They were in fact conscious but lost their awareness. Awareness allows you to stop being a dog and start being a cat, when you feel that being a cat is more useful. This is subjectivity. It allows you to shift consciousness between roles. It allows you to talk to yourself. People in dire situations have issues stopping their roles of for example mothers when children are endangered.

First people were not that imaginative for roles. They did in fact use animals to "create themselves"(build their ego). People would say, I wish you the strength of a lion and the cunning of a fox. There was much identification with animals. Humans have the ability to set their stage and this is provided by awareness of the stage. Awareness of existence, but even more, awareness of "mode of existence"(a cat, a dog, a bully, a police officer, a smartass, a cool guy, whatever). This is what you're aiming. Consciousness is not that "wise". Awareness is "wise" and it is your main tool that separates you from other mammals, vmPFC. Check out studies of people with damaged vmPFC, they like to spend time with animals and have a hard time socialising with humans. People with inborn vmPFC issues tend to become psychopaths. Psychopaths are notorious for not being able to "emotionally plan". They can not comprehend emotional consequences of their actions until they commit them. They can not predict a future stage. They can not exit their current "stage"(context).

It is a simple answer to your question I think, but it seemed you hoped for something more magical?

I am explaining function as if it is a robot/computer with layered/tiered control software and I am explaining why it evolved and how it "piggy backed" onto existing less evolved circuits that manage behaviour. I found no magic is required to imagine how it works. The 4 layers (unconscious, subconscious, conscious and aware) work in harmony, sublimate tasks to each other and report back down etc. Each layer can be analysed easily by examining the animal clade that evolved them first. And each layer can be recognised within ones thoughts. The automatic behaviour of the subconscious, the communication as "hints" or "hunches" towards the conscious and the awareness providing an external perception of what is going on.

Oh yes, also check out the Iowa Gambling task (I think it was performed first by Damasio?). It shows that in fact the subconscious figures out which deck is "worse". This is detected by standard stress sensing by skin conduction etc. The person moves his hand over several decks of which some are better to play with some aren't. Subconscious responds 10 games earlier - this is the automatic detection of failure to predict and it engages consciousness to figure out what's wrong. It takes 10 more games for consciousness to figure out which deck is wrong and why.

Tried to find Iowa gambling task but ran into an URL that encompasses both it and psychopaths and inability to learn with fearlessness.

[url]http://verbosestoic....g-with-emotion/[/ur]

Psychopaths fail Iowa gambling task.

Edited by addx, 18 April 2014 - 03:53 PM.


#11 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 18 April 2014 - 07:34 PM

Here are some attempts at definition.

 

Ads related to consciousness definition

#12 johnross47

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 189
  • Location:table 42 in the restaurant at the end of the universe

Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:31 PM

None of these are explanations.



#13 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

None of these are explanations.


Well then post expectations of explanations.
  • like x 1

#14 johnross47

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 189
  • Location:table 42 in the restaurant at the end of the universe

Posted 20 April 2014 - 09:56 AM

 

None of these are explanations.


Well then post expectations of explanations.

 

 

I was just commenting on Sh's post which is just dictionary definitions and not any sort of useful explanation. I think Brafarality is asking for something that doesn't exist, not yet anyway, and may not exist at all. I find the descriptions of the process by Damasio etc quite satisfying and expect them to be added to and the detail to be increased. It's not a sudden revelation of some thing that consciousness is, it's just a steady accretion of information gradually building u into a big picture.



#15 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 20 April 2014 - 10:36 AM

Ah, I kinda agree, I think the biggest "mystery" is the seamless transfer between layers.



Oh yes, here's a nice yogic synthesis of most fundamental psychiatric theories(freud, klein, lacan), it's really interesting how much eastern culture in fact knows about psychology qualitatively even much better than western theories. The paper, while being about "use and abuse" also attempts to the explain awareness and consciousness and compare the understanding of them through other theories. You'll find statements as "awareness" is a "field" encompassing objects and such, they might be more what the thread author is asking. It's a correct explanation as well although not that materialistically tangible. I often give the link as its really a good text:

http://www.thenewyog...g/use&abuse.htm

Edited by addx, 20 April 2014 - 10:39 AM.


#16 johnross47

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 189
  • Location:table 42 in the restaurant at the end of the universe

Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:10 AM

I still find that Hume got it just about right, though it is now known that he was aware of eastern thought. There is an interesting piece on this at philosophy bites. I can't get at it right now but it's easy to find on their site. Hume was basically saying that when he looked into his consciousness all he saw was a fleeting stream of perception. That's really all there is; an integrated stream of internal and external senses modulated by memory and goals. It is obviously massively complex in its implementation but it's a system based on senses, goals and memories at base. What we think of as consciousness is the stream of currently salient sensory events.



#17 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:26 PM

I still find that Hume got it just about right, though it is now known that he was aware of eastern thought. There is an interesting piece on this at philosophy bites. I can't get at it right now but it's easy to find on their site. Hume was basically saying that when he looked into his consciousness all he saw was a fleeting stream of perception. That's really all there is; an integrated stream of internal and external senses modulated by memory and goals. It is obviously massively complex in its implementation but it's a system based on senses, goals and memories at base. What we think of as consciousness is the stream of currently salient sensory events.


I do kinda agree on the stream like quality of it. But I imagine the brain as mostly a complex array of associated "schemas" that rise and fall in activity. There are various levels of pre processing, processing and post processing that are done by various layers. Processing of lower layers filters out the important toward the higher layers, this determines out experience greatly.

The subconscious processes EVERYTHING, some of what it processed sublimates to the conscious because it is deemed "off expected and also relevant". The conscious addresses a single triggered/activated schema at a time that it then ponders how to resolve it to satisfaction. The subconscious can increase activity in any schema it is currently processing due to what is being scanned from senses. The conscious will have an increasingly tough time to keep its own schema/context active as the subconscious pushes its own schema towards it for conscious processing(as it is deemed off expected and relevant). The conscious becomes a hostage of the subconscious perspective distortion whose goal in fact is to divert the attention of the conscious to what it considers important. The conscious can process only one stream of thought, but the subconscious multiprocessing and sublimating/pushing towards a schema/context in ramp style is an integral part of the experience. Another integral part of the experience is the awareness. It is rarely considered except by great thinkers, but there is an extra part of the brain that allows you be aware of this. As your conscious struggles to keep its own line of thought and loses the battle and accepts a push from the subconscious and starts dealing with that, short term memory is lost towards the original line of thought. After dealing with the subconscious line of though, one has to rebuild the original one, return it to short memory for example. There is a part of you that is aware of the loss of original thread, surrender to something else, and then returning to the first line of though. This is also integral to the experience.

So what I'm saying, the most magical thing is obviously 3 distinct parts/mechanisms/layers of the brain working in harmony to deliver such a seamless experience stream.

#18 johnross47

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 189
  • Location:table 42 in the restaurant at the end of the universe

Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:07 PM

 

I still find that Hume got it just about right, though it is now known that he was aware of eastern thought. There is an interesting piece on this at philosophy bites. I can't get at it right now but it's easy to find on their site. Hume was basically saying that when he looked into his consciousness all he saw was a fleeting stream of perception. That's really all there is; an integrated stream of internal and external senses modulated by memory and goals. It is obviously massively complex in its implementation but it's a system based on senses, goals and memories at base. What we think of as consciousness is the stream of currently salient sensory events.


I do kinda agree on the stream like quality of it. But I imagine the brain as mostly a complex array of associated "schemas" that rise and fall in activity. There are various levels of pre processing, processing and post processing that are done by various layers. Processing of lower layers filters out the important toward the higher layers, this determines out experience greatly.

The subconscious processes EVERYTHING, some of what it processed sublimates to the conscious because it is deemed "off expected and also relevant". The conscious addresses a single triggered/activated schema at a time that it then ponders how to resolve it to satisfaction. The subconscious can increase activity in any schema it is currently processing due to what is being scanned from senses. The conscious will have an increasingly tough time to keep its own schema/context active as the subconscious pushes its own schema towards it for conscious processing(as it is deemed off expected and relevant). The conscious becomes a hostage of the subconscious perspective distortion whose goal in fact is to divert the attention of the conscious to what it considers important. The conscious can process only one stream of thought, but the subconscious multiprocessing and sublimating/pushing towards a schema/context in ramp style is an integral part of the experience. Another integral part of the experience is the awareness. It is rarely considered except by great thinkers, but there is an extra part of the brain that allows you be aware of this. As your conscious struggles to keep its own line of thought and loses the battle and accepts a push from the subconscious and starts dealing with that, short term memory is lost towards the original line of thought. After dealing with the subconscious line of though, one has to rebuild the original one, return it to short memory for example. There is a part of you that is aware of the loss of original thread, surrender to something else, and then returning to the first line of though. This is also integral to the experience.

So what I'm saying, the most magical thing is obviously 3 distinct parts/mechanisms/layers of the brain working in harmony to deliver such a seamless experience stream.

 

Yes, I think we are basically saying the same thing. I wonder, though if the OP is asking for an account of how it is that the consciousness part of the brain generates what are usually called qualia, while other parts of the stream don't. What is the difference between the conscious and unconscious parts of the process. Demasio suggests that massive integration is a key feature, but that is still maybe distinct from the sense-like nature of qualia. Personally I think the demand from some people, that we should be able to share qualia, or experience other people's qualia, before we can be said to have proved the point, is a bit of a red herring, in the same way that Chalmer's p-zombies are. As usual Dennet is probably right when he says they are an incoherent nonsense. I think if we look at it from an evolutionary viewpoint, we don't find it surprising that very small creatures can respond to , say, light, and most of us would not regard it as strange to say that fish have senses. Where people differ is in how they imagine other creatures feel the sensory stimulii. At the very low level there may not be any feeling at all, just a chemically mediated response, but as you come up the evolutionary chain it becomes harder and harder to deny sensory sensation, and by the time you get to a dog, it is fairly clear you are looking at a mind of sorts looking back at you and trying to communicate. What makes the difference? That is possibly the crux of the matter.

 



#19 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:22 PM

None of these are explanations.

 

Read the topic.
 



#20 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 22 April 2014 - 06:35 AM

Description of consciousness. To me it's just a synonym of self-awareness. This is a trait likeliest to develop in social mammals and birds (along with morality or sense of fairness). At its very simplest, I tend to imagine self-awareness as property that cannot emerge in a social and sensory vacuum, meaning if one were hypothetically born without capacity for sensory experience, then that one would never achieve self-awareness. How can you develop self-awareness when you perceive no one and nothing else around you, how would that one develop a concept of self? This seems odd especially considering that the popular definition of self-awareness, the very concept of self awareness, lies entirely on sensory information. Becoming a parent has prompted me to learn about how infants learn about the world and gradually learn to differentiate themselves from others and their environment, and forced me to consider this very idea of self-awareness just a few years ago. I understand that that is a general concept that is extremely unsatisfying and perhaps even uncomfortable for theists, deists, spiritualists and such, and most would simply summarily dismiss. But that's okay.
  • dislike x 1

#21 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2014 - 07:55 AM

At the very low level there may not be any feeling at all, just a chemically mediated response, but as you come up the evolutionary chain it becomes harder and harder to deny sensory sensation, and by the time you get to a dog, it is fairly clear you are looking at a mind of sorts looking back at you and trying to communicate. What makes the difference? That is possibly the crux of the matter.


That difference is the "awareness" part I talked about. It developed in great apes and humans. It is the crux of the matter. All mental discipline religions focus on it.

It is the most important part . It allows shifting of consciousness through different contexts. The ability to be aware of yourself(and thus existence) as an object in a context (dog being a dog in a pack) allows you to "push" that awareness down towards the conscious and change it - stop being a dog. The dog can't do that, but a great ape and human can. It's the one evolutionary change that allowed acting/lieing but in fact humor and shame.

Humor and shame are the latest evolved emotions and they are evolutionary crafted emotions meants to signal failure of "awareness"(shame) and denial of failure of awareness(humor).

Awareness is supposed to detect contexts. When one is caused to *act*/*behave* by "faking a context to him" one acts/behaves wrongly(per the true context) and is either shamed(for lack of wisdom) or provides humor if it is friendly(training wisdom).

This evoluionary adaptation allows more complex social structures. It allows an individual to choose his "pledge"(context/group/organization) and to have more of them or none. I also allows deceit including self-deceit.

This allows larger groups and subgroups to form and finally it allows the complex human society to arise.

This is the most "uncatchable"/"undetectable" thought processing part, the one that allows you te be aware of consciousness and subconsciousness, but not of itself. It works by always placing your consciousness into a context and then your consciousness does the thinking/pondering/resolving(self-talk) which you *hear in your head*(are aware of).

Edited by addx, 22 April 2014 - 07:57 AM.


#22 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:24 AM

Description of consciousness. To me it's just a synonym of self-awareness. This is a trait likeliest to develop in social mammals and birds (along with morality or sense of fairness). At its very simplest, I tend to imagine self-awareness as property that cannot emerge in a social and sensory vacuum, meaning if one were hypothetically born without capacity for sensory experience, then that one would never achieve self-awareness. How can you develop self-awareness when you perceive no one and nothing else around you, how would that one develop a concept of self? This seems odd especially considering that the popular definition of self-awareness, the very concept of self awareness, lies entirely on sensory information. Becoming a parent has prompted me to learn about how infants learn about the world and gradually learn to differentiate themselves from others and their environment, and forced me to consider this very idea of self-awareness just a few years ago. I understand that that is a general concept that is extremely unsatisfying and perhaps even uncomfortable for theists, deists, spiritualists and such, and most would simply summarily dismiss. But that's okay.


They are NOT synonims.

Consciousness is NOT awareness and vice versa.

Awareness is *aware* of consciousness.

Nothing is aware of awareness, the thought process of awareness is instrinsic and not internally observable.

The thought process of consciousness is internally observable and interruptable.

Learning to work your limbs consciously is a function of consciousness. What is learned is stored and can be used subconsciously is reinforced enough. However a dog is not aware of this process even though he is conscious of his successes and failures, he is not aware of them.

Conscious says "this is a wrong way to do it".

Awareness says "I'm doing it the wrong way". Awareness is aware that the conscious(I-self-object) is doing it the wrong way. As the awareness becomes aware of it the information immediately changes context of the consciousness to include this information causing an adaptation in conscious behavior.

The dog can not feel responsible for what it does. Responsible meaning that it can provide an explanation of its decisions - this would require an awareness of the decision making process which a dog does not have. It just has the decision making apparatus, but it is not observed internally, there is no backdrop to the decision making, no recall of previously made decisions and their emotional result, only the current context and the previous rational results.

Edited by addx, 22 April 2014 - 10:38 AM.


#23 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:49 AM

An assertation that YOU are doing it the wrong way results in extra ego processing/relating - you vs. others per future. The awareness processes what happened from the point of view of investement into the future. It is a higher order mechanism. It keeps track of ability to "be a dog", "be a cat", usefulness of such abilities in relation to social dominance. It keeps track of "ego".

An assertation that IT is a wrong way to do it is results only in rational processing you vs. external now/moment/obstacle.

The dog can not feel responsible for what it does. Responsible meaning that it can provide an explanation of its decisions - this would require an awareness of the decision making process which a dog does not have. It just has the decision making apparatus, but it is not observed internally, there is no backdrop to the decision making, no recall of previously made decisions and their emotional result, only the current context and the previous rational results.


The "vague" border between consciousness and awareness is experienced as such because of the seamless quality of it but the border can be experienced abruptly in some dire situations.

The border is in fact not vague at all. The consciousness can not fathom "investement beyond the current moment". It is only able to invest in the now to resolve a current situation. Long term functioning is provided by awareness providing context/memories to the conscious which it then interprets as the now(reexperienced) and resolves an action/solution in imagination(where the contex/memories are provided as a simulation).

The interplay of these two circuits is amazing to achieve that but is obvious that consciousness can and will function without awareness and does function alone in all lower mammals. Awareness only "abuses" the consciousness by interrupting and changing the context under which consciousness is conscious. The ability of awareness to distract consciousness by imaginary contexts allows one to commit subconscious action(e.g. driving a car) while pondering something else.

The recall of consciousness is rational, the recall of awareness is emotional as it can only recall by uploading contexts into "imagination" to which the consciousness reacts as if it were true. So the recall of awareness always involves an emotional response of the consciousness.

A recall of the consciousness is only used to solve a now-situation, it is used to recall tools, objects to use and patterns of use. Consciousness is objectifying of the self and the others. Its purpose it to become a perfect object, whatever that is. For animals its set, they are what they are, for humans, its a question of choice(more or less).

Edited by addx, 22 April 2014 - 11:56 AM.

  • dislike x 1

#24 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2014 - 01:20 PM

It is also important to note differences in communication. Low level mammals allow their the consciousness to be overwhelmed by another animals consciousness through subconscious acceptance of communicated state as true resulting in the submissive animal adopting a goal by adopting a state as true and, knowing the behavior schemas of the group(being raised in it) it knows what to do and thus communication results in improved effort of the group, but this requires attachment -> trust.

Exactly this point is what evolved in higher animals. The decision to trust, to let yourself be fully submissive to a context.

In order to "calculate trust" the mechanism of *awareness*, in fact of "emotional *consequences* of trust" evolves. It requires a constant awareness of context in order to detect as soon as possible that you're being "conned" by the context. From this constant awareness results our "awareness" of existance "notion". You can remove it and you'll still function, but as a lower mammal.


http://en.wikipedia....efrontal_cortex

Activation of the vmPFC is associated with successful suppression of emotional responses to a negative emotional signal.[10] Patients with vmPFC lesions show defects both in emotional response and emotion regulation.[8] Their emotional responsivity is generally diminished and they show markedly reduced social emotions such as compassion, shame and guilt. These are emotions that are closely associated with moral values.[8] Patients also exhibit poorly regulated anger and frustration tolerance in certain circumstances.[8]
Patients with focal lesions in the vmPFC show personality changes such as lack of empathy, irresponsibility, and poor decision making. These traits are similar to psychopathic personality traits



Antonio Damasio also used it for his theories(again same link):
http://en.wikipedia....efrontal_cortex

One particularly notable theory of vmPFC function is the somatic marker hypothesis, accredited to António Damásio. By this hypothesis, the vmPFC has a central role in adapting somatic markersemotional associations, or associations between mental objects and visceral (bodily) feedbackfor use in natural decision making.


Edited by addx, 22 April 2014 - 01:27 PM.


#25 johnross47

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 189
  • Location:table 42 in the restaurant at the end of the universe

Posted 22 April 2014 - 01:29 PM

 

None of these are explanations.

 

Read the topic.
 

 

 

Read it yourself. The OP said;

 

"I would really like to read some genuine attempts to describe consciousness that go beyond "subjective experience",  "self awareness", "executive control" and the like.

 

I mean I want something that actually makes a spirited effort to describe it in some exactitude. Like, what is it? What are its properties and characteristics? Can it be seen, measured, anything like that?"



#26 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:57 PM

Oh yes, I'm not sure, most of you here read a multitude of books on the topic. I only read some summaries and quotes etc.

There is a fundamental difference between my line of thought and everyone elses(that I've seen). Everyone else seems to try and understand the brain from the point of view of its "user" - the self - the individual that carries it. I'm trying to understand it from the point of view of its "creator" - evolution. The view from the "user" is simply a wrong approach and it leads to overcomplex inapplicable knowledge. The initial standpoint is that the brain and the body is just "behavior" of the zygote keeps true perspective. The brain evolves because the zygote that grows a better brain gets to have more sex later.

The entire "evolutionary" line of thought(if evolution was a person) is based on weighing insvestment against immediate success.

Thus cell division used for growing bodies instead of bacteria colonies and evolution of sexual reproduction is an investement against immediate success.

The zygote instead of dividing asexually into 2 zyogtes uses the ability to grow a body. The sexual reproduction ability is used to reproduce but at a cost - an instance of the same life form must be found and willing to reproduce. So, that's 2 fold cost for eukaryotic life. The return on the investment is the "gene pool" (providing a return in "gene pool cleanlyness ensured by sexual selection" which then provides a slow forward evolution speed) and "the body"(allowing the cell to create a big body that can use or access new types of resources).

The body itself is always an investment. A huge expensive body is not that worthwhile to a species, depending on conditions.

Evolution continued to evolve "preemptive investement" mechanisms for bigger later payoff - the last of which is the awareness.

Each "status marker" later evolves its "reactive mechanism" which reacts when the derivation of state change spikes.

The first of such is the social hierarchy and territorialness.

Initially it is only instictual in the moment - who beats who gets to reproduce.

So top level investement is placed in senses, muscles, protection and reflexes - instinctual war machines.

But eventually higher order mechanism develops that keeps track of success as explained, social fights are kept track of and result in "social status" which branches out to female and/or territory posession, depending on the species.

The sense of social status is now the top level "investment" of the species resulting in females and/or territory.

This means the species can sacrifice the lower level investment for the higher level if it weighs it so. This means they can fight "for nothing"(apparent) but simply for social status. Such fights are obvious investements and the brain would not evolve to allow such reckless behavior if it didn't have a payoff.


As the bodies reproductive and life cycle are "invested" into the gene pool more bodies die due to intraspecies competition(ensured by among other more obvious things - aging), but the gene pool itself evolves steadily thanks to each body sacrificed or each refused spread of genes.

Mammals then evolve a game changer - consciousness. It allows for rapid adaptation of subconscious behavior. This allows mammals to use a body in multiple adaptive ways before discarding it or allowing it to procreate. The gene pool is still invested into, but there is something else now - the group - the meta-carrier of the "knowledge pool".

Consciousness reacts to subconscious error in state prediction. Again it responds to the derivation of state to induce an "investement response(consciousness) that endures momentary frustration(think of the rat reward dowhshift 8% sucrose moment) in order to detect a difference in context that will serve future endaveours. This investment does not pay off so much on itself, but since mammals evolved vicarious learning at the same time - this investment spreads easily and gives a huge pay off for the group whose member invested it. Aggregation of experience forms a new meta-entity of evolution "knowledge pool".

And finally awareness evolves, I've been bored I guess. But time for boredom is gone now, I think I've explained how awareness functions as reactive to state change and how it provides an investment into the future. No need to go into that further now.

So, point being others do not seem to pick this evolutionary "way of things". I have a hard time imagining how anyone is going to "explain the brain" without it.

Edited by addx, 22 April 2014 - 03:04 PM.


#27 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2014 - 06:22 PM

CENTER FOR CONSCIOUSNESS STUDIES

 

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/

 

 



#28 johnross47

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 189
  • Location:table 42 in the restaurant at the end of the universe

Posted 22 April 2014 - 07:06 PM

CENTER FOR CONSCIOUSNESS STUDIES

 

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/

 

 

What a curious mix, many of the very best people in the field, and then Deepak Chopra.


Oh yes, I'm not sure, most of you here read a multitude of books on the topic. I only read some summaries and quotes etc.

There is a fundamental difference between my line of thought and everyone elses(that I've seen). Everyone else seems to try and understand the brain from the point of view of its "user" - the self - the individual that carries it. I'm trying to understand it from the point of view of its "creator" - evolution. The view from the "user" is simply a wrong approach and it leads to overcomplex inapplicable knowledge. The initial standpoint is that the brain and the body is just "behavior" of the zygote keeps true perspective. The brain evolves because the zygote that grows a better brain gets to have more sex later.

The entire "evolutionary" line of thought(if evolution was a person) is based on weighing insvestment against immediate success.

Thus cell division used for growing bodies instead of bacteria colonies and evolution of sexual reproduction is an investement against immediate success.

The zygote instead of dividing asexually into 2 zyogtes uses the ability to grow a body. The sexual reproduction ability is used to reproduce but at a cost - an instance of the same life form must be found and willing to reproduce. So, that's 2 fold cost for eukaryotic life. The return on the investment is the "gene pool" (providing a return in "gene pool cleanlyness ensured by sexual selection" which then provides a slow forward evolution speed) and "the body"(allowing the cell to create a big body that can use or access new types of resources).

The body itself is always an investment. A huge expensive body is not that worthwhile to a species, depending on conditions.

Evolution continued to evolve "preemptive investement" mechanisms for bigger later payoff - the last of which is the awareness.

Each "status marker" later evolves its "reactive mechanism" which reacts when the derivation of state change spikes.

The first of such is the social hierarchy and territorialness.

Initially it is only instictual in the moment - who beats who gets to reproduce.

So top level investement is placed in senses, muscles, protection and reflexes - instinctual war machines.

But eventually higher order mechanism develops that keeps track of success as explained, social fights are kept track of and result in "social status" which branches out to female and/or territory posession, depending on the species.

The sense of social status is now the top level "investment" of the species resulting in females and/or territory.

This means the species can sacrifice the lower level investment for the higher level if it weighs it so. This means they can fight "for nothing"(apparent) but simply for social status. Such fights are obvious investements and the brain would not evolve to allow such reckless behavior if it didn't have a payoff.


As the bodies reproductive and life cycle are "invested" into the gene pool more bodies die due to intraspecies competition(ensured by among other more obvious things - aging), but the gene pool itself evolves steadily thanks to each body sacrificed or each refused spread of genes.

Mammals then evolve a game changer - consciousness. It allows for rapid adaptation of subconscious behavior. This allows mammals to use a body in multiple adaptive ways before discarding it or allowing it to procreate. The gene pool is still invested into, but there is something else now - the group - the meta-carrier of the "knowledge pool".

Consciousness reacts to subconscious error in state prediction. Again it responds to the derivation of state to induce an "investement response(consciousness) that endures momentary frustration(think of the rat reward dowhshift 8% sucrose moment) in order to detect a difference in context that will serve future endaveours. This investment does not pay off so much on itself, but since mammals evolved vicarious learning at the same time - this investment spreads easily and gives a huge pay off for the group whose member invested it. Aggregation of experience forms a new meta-entity of evolution "knowledge pool".

And finally awareness evolves, I've been bored I guess. But time for boredom is gone now, I think I've explained how awareness functions as reactive to state change and how it provides an investment into the future. No need to go into that further now.

So, point being others do not seem to pick this evolutionary "way of things". I have a hard time imagining how anyone is going to "explain the brain" without it.

 

Demasio makes frequent and very significant references to evolutionary aspects and sees the whole process as very much the result of an evolutionary sequence. 

 

I don't think an answer can exist in the sense of the original question because consciousness is not a thing, it's a process.



#29 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:06 PM

Center for CONSCIOUSNESS STUDIES.
http://www.conscious...a.edu/index.htm
Actually it is from the University of Arizona and promotes discussion of all phenomena related to human consciousness, not just DEEPAK CHOPRA.  Why not hear what he has to say?  No, I am not a big fan of Deepak.  He is only one of a number of speakers.  For those with an open mind it might be interesting.
 

By the way, what process did you use to determine consciousness is only a process?


Edited by shadowhawk, 22 April 2014 - 08:10 PM.


#30 Duchykins

  • Guest
  • 1,415 posts
  • 72
  • Location:California

Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:46 PM

Description of consciousness. To me it's just a synonym of self-awareness. This is a trait likeliest to develop in social mammals and birds (along with morality or sense of fairness). At its very simplest, I tend to imagine self-awareness as property that cannot emerge in a social and sensory vacuum, meaning if one were hypothetically born without capacity for sensory experience, then that one would never achieve self-awareness. How can you develop self-awareness when you perceive no one and nothing else around you, how would that one develop a concept of self? This seems odd especially considering that the popular definition of self-awareness, the very concept of self awareness, lies entirely on sensory information. Becoming a parent has prompted me to learn about how infants learn about the world and gradually learn to differentiate themselves from others and their environment, and forced me to consider this very idea of self-awareness just a few years ago. I understand that that is a general concept that is extremely unsatisfying and perhaps even uncomfortable for theists, deists, spiritualists and such, and most would simply summarily dismiss. But that's okay.

They are NOT synonims.

Consciousness is NOT awareness and vice versa.

Awareness is *aware* of consciousness.

Nothing is aware of awareness, the thought process of awareness is instrinsic and not internally observable.

The thought process of consciousness is internally observable and interruptable.

Learning to work your limbs consciously is a function of consciousness. What is learned is stored and can be used subconsciously is reinforced enough. However a dog is not aware of this process even though he is conscious of his successes and failures, he is not aware of them.

Conscious says "this is a wrong way to do it".

Awareness says "I'm doing it the wrong way". Awareness is aware that the conscious(I-self-object) is doing it the wrong way. As the awareness becomes aware of it the information immediately changes context of the consciousness to include this information causing an adaptation in conscious behavior.

The dog can not feel responsible for what it does. Responsible meaning that it can provide an explanation of its decisions - this would require an awareness of the decision making process which a dog does not have. It just has the decision making apparatus, but it is not observed internally, there is no backdrop to the decision making, no recall of previously made decisions and their emotional result, only the current context and the previous rational results.

Your reasoning and language are incoherent. You say consciousness is not awareness and then go on to say that consciousness is awareness.

Your dog example is patently absurd and is just another manifestation of human chauvinism.
  • like x 1





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: consciousness, mind, the hard problem

10 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 10 guests, 0 anonymous users