27 replies to this topic

[Lewis Carroll]

I was at my (holistic) doctor today to get my blood taken. I do this every 4-6 months to review my results and see what areas could be better (optimal > healthy). I had brought along a full list of all the supplements/vitamins that I am currently taking (around 27). My doctor began going over the list and stopped when he reached Krill Oil. He quickly told me that I should immediately stop taking the supplement. I was in shock. I asked him for his reasoning to which he gave me a quick overview. He also provided me with his own monthly newsletter entitles "Fish Oil Pills: Ineffective and Dangerous". Pretty much Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio needs to be 1:2 or 1:4 and supplementing Omega-3 (possibly) throws of this ratio by inhibiting the omega-6 fatty acid pathway and can causes many adverse problems.

 

"Long-term (over one month) use of fish oil pills does not have anti-inflammatory effects, and it does not prevent heart disease."

 

"One of the major problems with fish oil is that they are not stable at higher temperatures, including the temperature of the human body."

 

"Regardless of antioxidant levels added to the fish oil supplement, rancidity/peroxidation upon ingestion is a very significant and problematic issue. Because of the five double bonds in EPA...[is it] highly sensitive to temperature."

 

"Understanding the biochemistry of fish oil, one would assume that these supplements won't help any condition, including heart disease. In fact, ingesting large amounts of fish oil capsules can actually lead to adverse health issues."

 

"Long-term ingestion of fish oil can be expected to lead to significant inflammation."

 

It goes on to talk about the links between fish oil and prostate cancer as well as cardiovascular disease.

 

Source/Link: http://www.brianpesk..._Brownstein.pdf

[Lewis Carroll]

Four down votes for posting an article written by a M.D. (who has also written many books on the importance of Magnesium, B vitamins, Vitamin D, and Iodine). I figured most people would share my confusion/interest due to the fact that Fish/Krill Oil is currently such a staple supplement for literally everyone (myself included).

 

Attacking something one does not understand/want to understand is always a good option... (An assumption I feel that I am able to make since all four down voters had nothing to support why they did so.)

[Jeoshua]

I think that it was downvoted due to the (holistic) part.

Plus it was your first and only post, and this subject has been talked to death. There are many people on both sides of the issue that just won't let it die, and the rest of us are kind of sick of it.

Full disclosure: I didn't vote up or down.

Edited by Jeoshua, 02 May 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[timar]

I voted the post down because I don't think that it adds to this forum to uncritically parrot the extremist views of someone who clearly holds an opinion on this subject that is not based on a rational evaluation of scientific evidence. If you had posted this in a more appropriate form (i.e. as a question) I wouldn't have downvoted it.

 

The idea that "long-term ingestion of fish oil can be expected to lead to significant inflammation", at least at the doses usually recommended, is utterly absurd, as all the evidence conclusively points towards the opposite. The whole report is an incoherent concotion of exaggerated, speculative, paranoid and plainly wrong statements. It is quite telling that he didn't even got something as basic as the optimum omega-6 to omega-3 ratio right:

 

"The scientists concluded that the optimal ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids is between 1:2 and 1:4." - No, it is exactly the other way around. Just as with most statements in this pathetic report.

 

I would urge you to find another doctor. This one has clearly demonstrated his incompetence.

Edited by timar, 02 May 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[Lewis Carroll]

I had originally kept the holistic part out, but I figured it was only fair to include all the facts regarding the doctor. I honestly have never heard/read anything but praise of the positive benefits of fish oil, so my doctor's recommendation and article came as a bit of a shock to me. However,I can see how a never ending argument on the subject would get old. So I apologize to adding to what has possible already been said!

I think that it was downvoted due to the (holistic) part.

Plus it was your first and only post, and this subject has been talked to death. There are many people on both sides of the issue that just won't let it die, and the rest of us are kind of sick of it.

Full disclosure: I didn't vote up or down.

 

First off, thanks for the response. 

 

I am unfortunately not nearly in a position to critique a certified doctor since I have no experience in medicine nor in advanced chemistry, so I figured including my own opinion would be quite irrelevant. For the record I am long-time advocate and user of fish/krill oil. I'm a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner and weight lifter... fish oil is without a doubt my staple supplement. I "uncritically parroted the extremist views" 1. to give a quick overview of the article 2. in hopes of receiving responses that could confirm or deny the claims... So, I'm not quite sure why it seems that you're unloading so much negativity and anger at me. I was just looking for help! However, I do apologize for not posting the thread as a question; I didn't realize I had the option!

 

So, he got the actually ratio wrong... That is definitely a big red flag. And I agree that all evidence points towards the opposite in regards to inflammation and long-term use. I will have to continue looking into what he had to say to see what else is in fact incorrect. 

 

I voted the post down because I don't think that it adds to this forum to uncritically parrot the extremist views of someone who clearly holds an opinion on this subject that is not based on a rational evaluation of scientific evidence. If you had posted this in a more appropriate form (i.e. as a question) I wouldn't have downvoted it.

 

The idea that "long-term ingestion of fish oil can be expected to lead to significant inflammation", at least at the doses usually recommended, is utterly absurd, as all the evidence conclusively points towards the opposite. The whole report is an incoherent concotion of exaggerated, speculative, paranoid and plainly wrong statements. It is quite telling that he didn't even got something as basic as the optimum omega-6 to omega-3 ratio right:

 

"The scientists concluded that the optimal ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids is between 1:2 and 1:4." - No, it is exactly the other way around. Just as with most statements in this pathetic report.

 

I would urge you to find another doctor. This one has clearly demonstrated his incompetence.

 

[Jeoshua]

To be honest, I've seen this guy's newsletter before, when the topic came up before. People seem to just see that someone with "MD" after their name wrote it and treat these kind of things like gold, but honestly it wasn't a study, it had no facts of its own, and that newsletter itself was just copying something someone else had to say. In other words, it was using the "MD" after the name to lend it weight.

There are plenty of actual studies that have been done that have shown that in some circumstances, Fish Oil isn't a panacea, or that it's less than optimal. But dangerous? Never.

[chemicalambrosia]

There are plenty of actual studies that have been done that have shown that in some circumstances, Fish Oil isn't a panacea, or that it's less than optimal. But dangerous? Never.

 

If fish oil is rancid(oxidized) then it is unhealthy at best, but probably dangerous. I unwittingly drank some rancid fish oil and it made a whole day unpleasant for me. From anecdotal experiences of myself and others I think that a lot of fish oil pills are already somewhat rancid when they are put into pills. However, high quality fish oil is a staple for me.

[Jeoshua]

Rancid? Yeah okay that could be dangerous. That's why I usually get the pure liquid kind and keep it in the fridge, rather than caps. They're more convenient to take, but you can never tell when they've gone bad outside of wasting a few of them. Plus, the concentrated pure liquid kind usually comes in a pleasant citrus flavor and helps other supplements (fat soluble ones) go down easier and work better.

[fntms]

Still, fish oil sales are down quite a bit in the US (-5%) since the aggressive prostate cancer study (even women take less now).
(In the past it seems that vitamin e sales never fully recovered from the prostate cancer study.)
Maybe krill oil is "different enough", at least this is the maker's argument...

[Layberinthius]

I stopped taking fish oil because I noticed no benefit other than an increased DECREASED blood pressure due to the obvious side effect of ingesting oil, that is the only difference I noticed was higher cholesterol levels. I also noticed that there was an increase in load put on my heart, it felt like it was struggling just to pump blood around after taking them. My chest felt tigher than usual!

 

 

Why the hell are people taking it for in the first place? The original basis for taking it was because it was in native peoples food and they didn't keel over and die of heart attack because of fish oil while taking it in addition to large amounts of fats. There is no benefit whatsoever to be taking it as a supplement unless you are actually eating the same fish that the native people do.

 

So if you are munching into large amounts of fish all of the time then you will not benefit from taking it as a supplement unless you eat tons of bacon each morning, eggs with your breakfast, then chow down on some sheep in the afternoon.

 

But if you're not, then you're just adding more crap that your cardiovascular system needs to pump around and deal with.

 

Ontop of that, it was advertised to HELL and BACK about the mental health benefits from taking fish oil for kids, but I noticed NO improvement at all, infact there was a massive decrease in my ability to concentrate.

 

So they are targeting it for kids to take, despite the fact that it could possibly give them a heart attack or a reduced mental functioning in class.

 

http://www.healthcen...fish-oil-raise/

 

And this is the only source that I can find which states that its okay to continue taking it.

 

I don't want to risk my heart health based upon a single article on healthcentral.

 

I would rather grow my own fish at home, and plan upon doing so at some point in the future, as fresh as possible and get omega 3 from that source than god knows where it comes from in capsules.

Edited by Layberinthius, 03 May 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Jeoshua]

And that's what we were afraid this thread would turn into. Again.

[Layberinthius]

Why are you afraid of critisizm about fish oil at all? You don't have financial ties to the market do you?

[platypus]

I stopped taking fish oil because I noticed no benefit other than an increased blood pressure due to the obvious side effect of ingesting oil, that is the only difference I noticed was higher cholesterol levels. I also noticed that there was an increase in load put on my heart, it felt like it was struggling just to pump blood around after taking them. My chest felt tigher than usual!

 

If your chest feels tight you should probably see a doctor. Normal life should not strain your heart the way you describe. 

[Jeoshua]

I'm not afraid of hysterical claims that Fish Oil will give our children heart attacks, for one.

For two, disagreeing with hysterical nonsense doesn't make someone a corporate shill.

And finally, you're only proving why the original post got so many downvotes: We knew the hysterics were coming.

Edited by Jeoshua, 03 May 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[timar]

Quality certainly is an issue with fish oil. Quantity may be too, because I wouldn't exclude negative effects from the mega-doses advocated in the bodybuilding scene. So drinking cheap fish oil by the bottle is indeed a bad idea and may lead to oxidative stress due to lipid peroxidation.

 

Here are two recent articles on fish oil, discussing alleged risks and benefits:

 

Fish oil: Good for my health... or not?

The importance of omega-3 fatty acids for health

 

nutri-facts.org is an industry website, but it generally provides accurate scientific information.

 

 

I stopped taking fish oil because I noticed no benefit other than an increased blood pressure due to the obvious side effect of taking fish oil, that is higher cholesterol levels.

 

Fish oil usually has the opposite effect. It slightly lowers blood pressure and improves the LDL/HDL ratio by slightly increasing HDL cholesterol (possibly except for ApoE4 carriers).

 

 

I also noticed that there was an increase in load put on my heart, it felt like it was struggling just to pump blood around after taking them.

 

Sorry, but such statements make it hard to take anything you write seriously.

 

There are a lot of people in this forum who have been reporting the most dramatic (sometime hilarious) placebo responses to completely benign substances. Those poeple usually lack critical thinking skills and self-distance and hence let themselves be fooled by their own subconsciousness.

 

 

Edited by timar, 03 May 2014 - 08:06 AM.

[Layberinthius]

Quality certainly is an issue with fish oil. Quantity may be too, because I wouldn't exclude negative effects from the mega-doses advocated in the bodybuilding scene. So drinking cheap fish oil by the bottle is indeed a bad idea and may lead to oxidative stress due to lipid peroxidation.

 

Here are two recent articles on fish oil, discussing alleged risks and benefits:

 

Fish oil: Good for my health... or not?

The importance of omega-3 fatty acids for health

 

nutri-facts.org is an industry website, but it generally provides accurate scientific information.

 

 

I stopped taking fish oil because I noticed no benefit other than an increased blood pressure due to the obvious side effect of taking fish oil, that is higher cholesterol levels.

 

Fish oil usually has the opposite effect. It slightly lowers blood pressure and improves the LDL/HDL ratio by slightly increasing HDL cholesterol (possibly except for ApoE4 carriers).

 

 

I also noticed that there was an increase in load put on my heart, it felt like it was struggling just to pump blood around after taking them.

 

Sorry, but such statements make it hard to take anything you write seriously.

 

There are a lot of people in this forum who have been reporting the most dramatic (sometime hillarious) placebo responses to completely benign substances. Those poeple usually lack critical thinking and self-distance and hence let themselves be fooled by their subconsciousness.

 

 

 

I was taking a diet of bacon and eggs for breakfast, and raw salmon for lunch almost every day, the other days I would have tuna sandwiches. I was also cooking nearly all of my food in a cast iron pan using canola and olive oil. I took the fish oil as a method of reducing cholesterol levels but if anything it just increased my cholesterol levels and didn't prevent the increase in cholesterol as a result of cooking that food and cooking things in canola oil and olive oil.

 

I didn't use a lot, and would occasionally have only one egg and not two. Yet I still had significant cardiovascular problems.

 

From all of the marketing BULLSHIT that is out there surrounding Fish oil, I thought I was okay, and infact I thought I was doing something good because I needed the bacon and eggs for working out, I needed large amounts of energy so I could work out on my recumbent exercise bike.

 

I worked out and exercised for 120 mins per day in 3 sessions.

 

I'm pretty sure I should have written low blood pressure and not high blood pressure, it is easy enough to confuse them and now that I think about it yes that is what was going on.

 

Infact I went to hospital several times complaining of heart murmurs, and as soon as I got there nothing would show up on the machine, but I could put a single finger on my neck and feel that my heart was skipping a beat. The doctors said that it was normal to have an occasional one, but I had NEVER had one before in my entire life.

 

I even woke up in the middle of the night one time and had the whole left hand side of my body go numb.

 

It scared the living shit out of me.

 

After this I just stopped taking everything, I now just have cereal and milk for breakfast and once a week have a piece of salmon. And I've been reluctant to take fish oil since then. After absorbing all of the bullshit that fish oil advertisers put out out there, I was convinced that it was okay to do.

 

And thank god, my heart has gone back to normal.

Edited by Layberinthius, 03 May 2014 - 08:18 AM.

[Layberinthius]

 

I stopped taking fish oil because I noticed no benefit other than an increased blood pressure due to the obvious side effect of ingesting oil, that is the only difference I noticed was higher cholesterol levels. I also noticed that there was an increase in load put on my heart, it felt like it was struggling just to pump blood around after taking them. My chest felt tigher than usual!

 

If your chest feels tight you should probably see a doctor. Normal life should not strain your heart the way you describe. 

 

 

See above.

 

If you take anything away from my replies, it should be that there would be a precautionary warning when taking fish oil in addition to a slice of bacon and an egg or two for breakfast.

Edited by Layberinthius, 03 May 2014 - 08:23 AM.

[timar]

Rancid? Yeah okay that could be dangerous. That's why I usually get the pure liquid kind and keep it in the fridge, rather than caps. They're more convenient to take, but you can never tell when they've gone bad outside of wasting a few of them. Plus, the concentrated pure liquid kind usually comes in a pleasant citrus flavor and helps other supplements (fat soluble ones) go down easier and work better.

 

I think you got this quite wrong, unfortunately. I strongly recommend to take capsules instead of liquid fish oil. First, oxygen is much more of a problem than the temperature. Bottled fish oil goes rancid rapidly once the bottle has been opened and exposed to oxygen, regardless of whether you store it in the refrigerator or not. Properly produced gelantin capsules on the other hand provide an excellent, almost 100% protection from oxygen (this is why fish oil capsules have a shelf life of up to three years from production date). Second, the citrus flavor is actually added for the very purpose of masking the rancid taste bottled fish oil quickly acquires, so I would never ever use flavored fish oil.

Edited by timar, 03 May 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Gerrans]

I never know what to think about fish oil. I hardly ever eat fish, because I do not like it, so I take a 500mg bog standard cod liver oil capsule each day to be on the safe side. I have read lots of research and debate about fish oil and O-3s over the years, and it seems there are very strong pros and cons. I do not see how a layman can decide what to do, so my taking this moderate amount is a shaky compromise.

 

*

One thing I will venture to say, as a personal opinion based on experience, is that O-3s from non-animal sources are not to be sneezed at. It is often said that so little of the precursor alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) is turned into EPA, and DHA in the body that non-animal sources pale nutritionally compared to fish oil. But I often eat walnuts, and they correlate with lack of tooth pain. I keep a food journal and, without looking for it, I noticed a growing correlation between tooth pain and days when I did not eat my walnuts. I could hardly believe that, but it seems likely to me now that the O-3s in walnuts are significantly anti inflammatory. I have not seen any research about this, but there is plenty of research showing that O-3s from fish oil are strongly anti-inflammatory and good for the teeth.

 

So, though I am still not sure about fish oil, I do have confidence in the benefits of non-animal O-3s. I doubt the body needs high amounts of them, which would explain why conversion rates from ALA are low. Perhaps the low conversion rate is proportional to the body's needs?

Edited by Gerrans, 03 May 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Thumbs-up to the original poster...  I don't find it boring, frustrating, or unwise to continue to revisit topics of considerable difference of opinion as this is how consensus on these topics evolves.  

 

What I can't get over on the fish oil / polyunsaturated debate is how we seem to think nature may have "got it wrong" on fats and oils.  Nature has tailored specific fats for specific species.  Cold water fish could not exist without polyunsaturated fish oil as their primary lipid as they would freeze up...  Warm blooded animals on the other hand seem to have evolved to embrace saturated fat as a primary lipid as as this form of fat is more stable at the higher temperatures of warm blooded species.  

 

Plant seeds also utilize polyunsaturated fats as a primary fuel source, but must produce large amounts of vitamin-E to keep this fat from going rancid during storage in the seed at normal temperatures.  The relative concentrations of vitamin-E required to keep these lipids stable in the seed are remarkably high and not something you find in the environment of the human body.  

 

Humans evolved consuming some of these oils from cold water fish and plant seeds, but for the bulk of humans, animal fat has surly been the primary lipid historically consumed.  We'd have had to gobble down an awful lot of seeds to get the payload of polyunsaturated oils we get from vegetable oils in today's diet. 

 

Now, all of a sudden (over the past 40 years) everyone is believing these polyunsaturated fats and oils should rightly be the primary lipids of warm blooded animals.  How could nature have screwed up so badly?  I truly don't know, but I'm suspicious of the theory myself.  

 

I would hope anyone embracing the theory polyunsaturated fats and oils are a good thing in bodies running at 98.6 degrees would also be aggressively taking steps to control oxidation of these fats and oils in their hot and steamy little bodies.  Iron acts as a catalyst for lipid peroxidation, and while cold water fish and vegetable seeds usually maintain a low iron environment to keep their fats and oils from turning rancid, humans tend to accumulate iron as they age and elevated iron is the norm for most all males and post menopausal females.  

 

Keep iron low and vitamin-E very high, and these PUFA's and fish oil may indeed have some beneficial properties.  Fail to take these factors into consideration and I fear gobbling down excessive amounts of these "unnatural" (in warm blooded species) fats and oils can only be counterproductive.  

 

An EPIDEMIC of fatty liver DISEASE has plagued man since we began to embrace PUFA's combined with iron fortified foods as dietary darlings.  As the liver is the primary storage site for excess iron and Grand Central Station for dietary lipids this alone provides ample evidence it may not be wise to try to fool mother nature.  Start demonizing/avoiding supplemental E and this problem is bound to get much worse.  A high PUFA / high iron diet in a hot body that is short on vitamin-E will result in a fine mess.  

 

Long Live the Debate!  

Edited by synesthesia, 03 May 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[Layberinthius]

What he said. ^

 

I also find it funny that I'm downvoted 4 times for a post raising serious concern about my health and the effects that omega 3 has had on me. Yet when I've expressed those health concerns in more detail nobody has upvoted me for bringing it to light.

 

Sticking your heads in the sand much? It must be easier to call somebody crazy than to accept their observations, ailbeit ones which are emotional, but I am human.

 

To hell with the individuals observations! The science tells us that this must work! So therefore we must be right and he must be wrong!

Edited by Layberinthius, 03 May 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[Lewis Carroll]

I was also curious as to why the doctor's entire newsletter seemed to be 'copied and pasted' information and stats from another article. He did not really seem to present any of his own findings; rather just added lots of speculation and assumptions... "One would ASSUME that these supplements won't help any condition" "Long-term ingestion of fish oil can be EXPECTED to lead to significant inflammation"

 

To be honest, I've seen this guy's newsletter before, when the topic came up before. People seem to just see that someone with "MD" after their name wrote it and treat these kind of things like gold, but honestly it wasn't a study, it had no facts of its own, and that newsletter itself was just copying something someone else had to say. In other words, it was using the "MD" after the name to lend it weight.

There are plenty of actual studies that have been done that have shown that in some circumstances, Fish Oil isn't a panacea, or that it's less than optimal. But dangerous? Never.

 

Completely agree that quality is very important... small quantity/good quality > large quantity/bad quality

 

I will have to look further into proper doses, and the effects of "mega" doses. As you mentioned, mega doses are highly advocated in the bodybuilding scene as well as the jiu-jitsu community (both which I am apart of).

 

I will also have to look into oxidation. Liquid fish oil quickly oxidizing makes perfect sense. In regards to fish oil capsules, however, in the article Dr. Brownstein talks about how upon ingestion any protection (via capsules) will be quickly dissolved.

 

Quality certainly is an issue with fish oil. Quantity may be too, because I wouldn't exclude negative effects from the mega-doses advocated in the bodybuilding scene. So drinking cheap fish oil by the bottle is indeed a bad idea and may lead to oxidative stress due to lipid peroxidation.

 

Here are two recent articles on fish oil, discussing alleged risks and benefits:

 

Fish oil: Good for my health... or not?

The importance of omega-3 fatty acids for health

 

nutri-facts.org is an industry website, but it generally provides accurate scientific information.

 

 

I stopped taking fish oil because I noticed no benefit other than an increased blood pressure due to the obvious side effect of taking fish oil, that is higher cholesterol levels.

 

Fish oil usually has the opposite effect. It slightly lowers blood pressure and improves the LDL/HDL ratio by slightly increasing HDL cholesterol (possibly except for ApoE4 carriers).

 

 

I also noticed that there was an increase in load put on my heart, it felt like it was struggling just to pump blood around after taking them.

 

Sorry, but such statements make it hard to take anything you write seriously.

 

There are a lot of people in this forum who have been reporting the most dramatic (sometime hilarious) placebo responses to completely benign substances. Those poeple usually lack critical thinking skills and self-distance and hence let themselves be fooled by their own subconsciousness.

 

 

 

I originally figured most people would share that same interest in revisiting "topics of considerable difference of opinion".

 

Thumbs-up to the original poster...  I don't find it boring, frustrating, or unwise to continue to revisit topics of considerable difference of opinion as this is how consensus on these topics evolves.  

 

What I can't get over on the fish oil / polyunsaturated debate is how we seem to think nature may have "got it wrong" on fats and oils.  Nature has tailored specific fats for specific species.  Cold water fish could not exist without polyunsaturated fish oil as their primary lipid as they would freeze up...  Warm blooded animals on the other hand seem to have evolved to embrace saturated fat as a primary lipid as as this form of fat is more stable at the higher temperatures of warm blooded species.  

 

Plant seeds also utilize polyunsaturated fats as a primary fuel source, but must produce large amounts of vitamin-E to keep this fat from going rancid during storage in the seed at normal temperatures.  The relative concentrations of vitamin-E required to keep these lipids stable in the seed are remarkably high and not something you find in the environment of the human body.  

 

Humans evolved consuming some of these oils from cold water fish and plant seeds, but for the bulk of humans, animal fat has surly been the primary lipid historically consumed.  We'd have had to gobble down an awful lot of seeds to get the payload of polyunsaturated oils we get from vegetable oils in today's diet. 

 

Now, all of a sudden (over the past 40 years) everyone is believing these polyunsaturated fats and oils should rightly be the primary lipids of warm blooded animals.  How could nature have screwed up so badly?  I truly don't know, but I'm suspicious of the theory myself.  

 

I would hope anyone embracing the theory polyunsaturated fats and oils are a good thing in bodies running at 98.6 degrees would also be aggressively taking steps to control oxidation of these fats and oils in their hot and steamy little bodies.  Iron acts as a catalyst for lipid peroxidation, and while cold water fish and vegetable seeds usually maintain a low iron environment to keep their fats and oils from turning rancid, humans tend to accumulate iron as they age and elevated iron is the norm for most all males and post menopausal females.  

 

Keep iron low and vitamin-E very high, and these PUFA's and fish oil may indeed have some beneficial properties.  Fail to take these factors into consideration and I fear gobbling down excessive amounts of these "unnatural" (in warm blooded species) fats and oils can only be counterproductive.  

 

An EPIDEMIC of fatty liver DISEASE has plagued man since we began to embrace PUFA's combined with iron fortified foods as dietary darlings.  As the liver is the primary storage site for excess iron and Grand Central Station for dietary lipids this alone provides ample evidence it may not be wise to try to fool mother nature.  Start demonizing/avoiding supplemental E and this problem is bound to get much worse.  A high PUFA / high iron diet in a hot body that is short on vitamin-E will result in a fine mess.  

 

Long Live the Debate!  

 

[Mind]

"Short Live The Debate!"

 

Whether or not fish oil is effective in health maintenance (I take it once in a while), is but an infinitesimal piece in the puzzle of aging. More important is figuring out how to reverse the damage that occurs throughout our lives. 

[Darryl]

I find the evidence for DHA & EPA supplementation compelling, though believe it will have much lesser effects moderating inflammation in diets already high in arachidonic and linoleic acid. In general, I agree with the OP that there's little evidence of benefit from high added-fat diets, but would go further to say minimizing total fat intake, as in some of the most successful traditional non-Western diets, may offer the optimum outcomes. Its also in a minimal total fat diet that DHA & EPA supplementation may be expected to have the most benefits. 

 

I do think anyone who takes a DHA & EPA supplement should make sure its refined to reduce persistent organic pollutant and heavy metal contamination, or take algal oil instead.

 

Turunen, A. W., Jula, A., Suominen, A. L., Männistö, S., Marniemi, J., Kiviranta, H., ... & Verkasalo, P. K. (2013). Fish consumption, omega-3 fatty acids, and environmental contaminants in relation to low-grade inflammation and early atherosclerosis. Environmental research, 120, 43-54. 

 

Serum triglyceride decreased across omega-3 PUFA tertiles in both sexes and studies. Insulin resistance, C-reactive protein, tumour necrosis factor a, and interleukin 6 decreased across omega-3 PUFA tertiles among the Health 2000 survey participants. Among the Fishermen study men, insulin resistance and arterial stiffness indicated by b-stiffness index tended to increase and the RR estimate for carotid artery plaque tended to decrease across tertiles of PCDD/FþPCB and MeHg. The hypothesised favourable effect on insulin sensitivity and arterial elasticity was suggested to be counteracted by high exposure to environmental contaminants but the effect on plaque prevalence appeared not to be harmful.

 

 

 

Ruzzin, J., Petersen, R., Meugnier, E., Madsen, L., Lock, E. J., Lillefosse, H., ... & Frøyland, L. (2010). Persistent organic pollutant exposure leads to insulin resistance syndrome. Environmental health perspectives, 118(4), 465.

 

 

Adult male rats exposed to crude, but not refined, salmon oil developed insulin resistance, abdominal obesity, and hepatosteatosis. The contribution of persistant organic pollutants to insulin resistance was confirmed in cultured adipocytes where POPs, especially organochlorine pesticides, led to robust inhibition of insulin action. Moreover, POPs induced down-regulation of insulin-induced gene-1 (Insig-1) and Lpin1, two master regulators of lipid homeostasis.

[Mr.No]

http://raypeat.com/a...s/fishoil.shtml

 

http://raypeat.com/a...ratedfats.shtml

 

??

[Jeoshua]

I'd say that 90% of the people saying that Fish Oil is bad for you are fans of Ray Peat. So really, those articles are not so much any new information for the people either pro or con about this issue, rather, it's more like the source material for the people saying Fish Oil is bad. Especially the ones who say "PUFA", which is a term that I had not heard in such widespread usage until I had heard of Ray Peat.

 

Not that I'm saying anything about the quality of articles. He is obviously a very good and convincing writer, with a lot of talent in that respect.

[Mr.No]

Or this one  http://www.nlm.nih.g...ript090313.html

[YoungSchizo]

I'm a little puzzled by fish oil lately. I always "experienced" taking fish oil as if it did gave Mirtazapine an extra antidepressant boost. However, lately I have experienced that fish oil increases my schizophrenic symptoms (thought disorder and paranoia). I don't know if this effect is caused because I had a short full blown psychosis and the benefits may be backfiring or fish oil is a supplement I shouldn't take anymore. I've had the same reaction to NAC, someone told me this may be because NAC increases endocannabinoid function/receptors. Any idea why fish oil would backfire? 

 

It's   because both supplements are one of the favorite supplement among schizophrenics..