61 replies to this topic

[pheanix997]

In simple neurochemistry terms, what does it mean? Some people seem to get an immediate and lasting "buzz" off an espresso shot or coffee or red bull, whereas others are completely unaffected. 
 

I'm the type who can drink a coffee after dinner and still be able to sleep when I want to. Now, the caffeine may be subtly disturbing my sleep quality in some ways, but I don't feel stimulated in any way while I take it. I just drink it because I like the taste. 

 

Does this mean you already have sufficient levels of dopamine, and thus are unaffected by its further enhancement? Or does it mean you're low in dopamine - so low you're actually insensitive to its effects. If the former were true, wouldn't it mean that people who don't exhibit ADD tendencies won't get a boost from stimulants of any kind, e.g., nicotine, caffeine, etc. But this explanation never holds up in my experience, as people who are already highly focused and alert seem to get even MORE of a jolt from caffeine. If the latter were true, wouldn't it imply that people who DO display ADD traits wouldn't benefit from stimulants? But this reasoning, too, doesn't hold up as people on the attention-deficit spectrum ARE helped in many ways by use of  dopaminergics, i.e. stimulant medications. 

 

Why don't I benefit from caffeine or other supposedly stimulating substances? If I live in a chronic state of fatigue, lack of alertness, and scatter-brained inattentiveness, shouldn't caffeine HELP me? 

Edited by pheanix997, 04 May 2014 - 04:53 AM.

[Layberinthius]

people who are unaffected by caffeine are on anti-depressants. as a result they have severely high serotonin levels and cannot feel a damn thing anyway.

 

I've found that the most infuriating and annoying people would have to be those with higher serotonin levels.

[Galaxyshock]

Caffeine is an antagonist of inhibitory receptors (adenosine), which then increases other neurotransmission. I can pretty much block the stimulant effect by taking adenosine-agonists/mimetics like cordycepin (3'-deoxyadenosine) from Cordyceps or adenosine from Reishi. Also, certain genes regulate how fast the body processes caffeine.

[pheanix997]

Layberinthius, I asked this question because I've never had a good response to caffeine, even years before taking ssris.

[YOLF]

When I was unnaffected by caffeine it looked to be a result of diet. I didn't drink enough water, I didn't eat enough fruit, etc. Changing my diet made me susceptible to caffeine again.

[pheanix997]

When I was unnaffected by caffeine it looked to be a result of diet. I didn't drink enough water, I didn't eat enough fruit, etc. Changing my diet made me susceptible to caffeine again.

I noticed this with myself as well. I also notice that caffeine-responders usually if not always eat healthier and have a healthier lifestyle than non-responders. 

[8bitmore]

I don't know about the lifestyle hypothesis: I eat very balanced and get plenty of fruit/veg/fish and still have no response to caffeine whatsoever (unless in really high doses (~250mg and above), where it simply causes jitters, no mental focus response curve at all). Also have never taken an antidep. in my life so...

[pheanix997]

I don't know about the lifestyle hypothesis: I eat very balanced and get plenty of fruit/veg/fish and still have no response to caffeine whatsoever (unless in really high doses (~250mg and above), where it simply causes jitters, no mental focus response curve at all). Also have never taken an antidep. in my life so...

 

Thanks for the response. I react similarly - high doses might make me a little jittery but it's not a focused alertness, more like a clouded anxiousness lol. 

[normalizing]

i suspect its adrenal insuficiency. i was extremely sensitive to caffeine (barely 20mg) caused me to be super anxious super charged, now it takes like 300mg to barely feel it. from what i know before and now, i abused drugs and alcohol and now i have adrenal insuficiency so it might be related...

[FW900]

It is not "adrenal fatigue" or anything remotely related to serotonin as suggested above. Some people are non-responders to caffeine much like myself. I routinely take two or three 10-15 day breaks of caffeine a year; no improvement in tolerance. I have quit caffeine for a period of four months; no improvement in tolerance. I am a healthy person, with no symptoms of "adrenal fatigue". Caffeine does not work on me; I can have 4 shots of espresso and go to sleep.

 

The most likely cause of why caffeine does not work for most people is as follows:

 

It is possible that people with a lack of hypcretin/orexin neurons are less susceptible to the wakefulness promotion that most people receive from caffeine.

 

http://jn.physiology...ontent/97/1/837

Adenosine Inhibits Activity of Hypocretin/Orexin Neurons by the A1 Receptor in the Lateral Hypothalamus: A Possible Sleep-Promoting Effect

 

 

Adenosine inhibits Orexin production, which in turn promotes sleep. People who have sleep disorders are thought to have less Orexin/hypocretin neurons. It would make sense that people who are predisposed to sleep disorders are unaffected by caffeine.

[Stanfoo]

caffeine has zero effect on me, but neither did all the other stimulants/nootropics ive tried. obviously cause im naturally tolerant to thes stuff

 

would be interesting to know scientifically why

 

 

[pheanix997]

It is not "adrenal fatigue" or anything remotely related to serotonin as suggested above. Some people are non-responders to caffeine much like myself. I routinely take two or three 10-15 day breaks of caffeine a year; no improvement in tolerance. I have quit caffeine for a period of four months; no improvement in tolerance. I am a healthy person, with no symptoms of "adrenal fatigue". Caffeine does not work on me; I can have 4 shots of espresso and go to sleep.

 

The most likely cause of why caffeine does not work for most people is as follows:

 

It is possible that people with a lack of hypcretin/orexin neurons are less susceptible to the wakefulness promotion that most people receive from caffeine.

 

http://jn.physiology...ontent/97/1/837

Adenosine Inhibits Activity of Hypocretin/Orexin Neurons by the A1 Receptor in the Lateral Hypothalamus: A Possible Sleep-Promoting Effect

 

 

Adenosine inhibits Orexin production, which in turn promotes sleep. People who have sleep disorders are thought to have less Orexin/hypocretin neurons. It would make sense that people who are predisposed to sleep disorders are unaffected by caffeine.

This is very interesting. I've never had that sense of full wakefulness that other people seem to have everyday. I actually recently had a sleep study done, so I'll make sure to post my results when I get them later this month. Although I don't have any apneas, my sleep is not very restful for many reasons. My father, though, does have sleep apnea, and he is also a non-responder to caffeine. I'll look into this some more... thanks. 

 

FW900, have you been diagnosed with a sleep disorder? 

[FW900]

 

It is not "adrenal fatigue" or anything remotely related to serotonin as suggested above. Some people are non-responders to caffeine much like myself. I routinely take two or three 10-15 day breaks of caffeine a year; no improvement in tolerance. I have quit caffeine for a period of four months; no improvement in tolerance. I am a healthy person, with no symptoms of "adrenal fatigue". Caffeine does not work on me; I can have 4 shots of espresso and go to sleep.

 

The most likely cause of why caffeine does not work for most people is as follows:

 

It is possible that people with a lack of hypcretin/orexin neurons are less susceptible to the wakefulness promotion that most people receive from caffeine.

 

http://jn.physiology...ontent/97/1/837

Adenosine Inhibits Activity of Hypocretin/Orexin Neurons by the A1 Receptor in the Lateral Hypothalamus: A Possible Sleep-Promoting Effect

 

 

Adenosine inhibits Orexin production, which in turn promotes sleep. People who have sleep disorders are thought to have less Orexin/hypocretin neurons. It would make sense that people who are predisposed to sleep disorders are unaffected by caffeine.

This is very interesting. I've never had that sense of full wakefulness that other people seem to have everyday. I actually recently had a sleep study done, so I'll make sure to post my results when I get them later this month. Although I don't have any apneas, my sleep is not very restful for many reasons. My father, though, does have sleep apnea, and he is also a non-responder to caffeine. I'll look into this some more... thanks. 

 

FW900, have you been diagnosed with a sleep disorder? 

 

 

Never diagnosed, however, I am led to believe that I do have a sleep disorder. I doze off frequently, sleep upwards of 12 hours without an alarm clock, struggle to wake to an alarm clock, feel tired, and dream even when I nap. Both a lack of time and the absurd cost of a sleep study which may be inconclusive have put me off from making an appointment to be diagnosed. I'm waiting until I am able to find a sleep doctor willing to treat me without a sleep study. It is also interesting that you said that your father has a sleep disorder, as they may be genetic and 'run in the family' http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12531161

[pheanix997]

Not only does my father have apnea, my mother has issues with minor insomnia, and so does my sister who, like me, also tends to sleep long hours and awake unrefreshed. I also dream vividly when I nap.

In Ontario, OHIP covers the sleep study costs if you're referred by a GP. I guess you live in the States?

[normalizing]

It is not "adrenal fatigue" or anything remotely related to serotonin as suggested above. Some people are non-responders to caffeine much like myself. I routinely take two or three 10-15 day breaks of caffeine a year; no improvement in tolerance. I have quit caffeine for a period of four months; no improvement in tolerance. I am a healthy person, with no symptoms of "adrenal fatigue". Caffeine does not work on me; I can have 4 shots of espresso and go to sleep.

 

The most likely cause of why caffeine does not work for most people is as follows:

 

It is possible that people with a lack of hypcretin/orexin neurons are less susceptible to the wakefulness promotion that most people receive from caffeine.

 

http://jn.physiology...ontent/97/1/837

Adenosine Inhibits Activity of Hypocretin/Orexin Neurons by the A1 Receptor in the Lateral Hypothalamus: A Possible Sleep-Promoting Effect

 

 

Adenosine inhibits Orexin production, which in turn promotes sleep. People who have sleep disorders are thought to have less Orexin/hypocretin neurons. It would make sense that people who are predisposed to sleep disorders are unaffected by caffeine.

 

 

yeah exactly. i have sleep problems because of adrenal insuficiency. i have narcolepsy and it started since i was dealing with my adrenal insuficiency.

 

[8bitmore]

 

 

It is not "adrenal fatigue" or anything remotely related to serotonin as suggested above. Some people are non-responders to caffeine much like myself. I routinely take two or three 10-15 day breaks of caffeine a year; no improvement in tolerance. I have quit caffeine for a period of four months; no improvement in tolerance. I am a healthy person, with no symptoms of "adrenal fatigue". Caffeine does not work on me; I can have 4 shots of espresso and go to sleep.

 

The most likely cause of why caffeine does not work for most people is as follows:

 

It is possible that people with a lack of hypcretin/orexin neurons are less susceptible to the wakefulness promotion that most people receive from caffeine.

 

http://jn.physiology...ontent/97/1/837

Adenosine Inhibits Activity of Hypocretin/Orexin Neurons by the A1 Receptor in the Lateral Hypothalamus: A Possible Sleep-Promoting Effect

 

 

Adenosine inhibits Orexin production, which in turn promotes sleep. People who have sleep disorders are thought to have less Orexin/hypocretin neurons. It would make sense that people who are predisposed to sleep disorders are unaffected by caffeine.

This is very interesting. I've never had that sense of full wakefulness that other people seem to have everyday. I actually recently had a sleep study done, so I'll make sure to post my results when I get them later this month. Although I don't have any apneas, my sleep is not very restful for many reasons. My father, though, does have sleep apnea, and he is also a non-responder to caffeine. I'll look into this some more... thanks. 

 

FW900, have you been diagnosed with a sleep disorder? 

 

 

Never diagnosed, however, I am led to believe that I do have a sleep disorder. I doze off frequently, sleep upwards of 12 hours without an alarm clock, struggle to wake to an alarm clock, feel tired, and dream even when I nap. Both a lack of time and the absurd cost of a sleep study which may be inconclusive have put me off from making an appointment to be diagnosed. I'm waiting until I am able to find a sleep doctor willing to treat me without a sleep study. It is also interesting that you said that your father has a sleep disorder, as they may be genetic and 'run in the family' http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12531161

 

 

I like this as a potential line of inquiry but also would like to note than I'm a caffeine non-responder and sleep very well; I go to sleep quickly and wake up reasonably refreshed.

[xks201]

Multitude of reasons. Every one wants to oversimplify biologic individuality. Not possible. High serotonin no

[protoject]

Caffeine is an antagonist of inhibitory receptors (adenosine), which then increases other neurotransmission. I can pretty much block the stimulant effect by taking adenosine-agonists/mimetics like cordycepin (3'-deoxyadenosine) from Cordyceps or adenosine from Reishi. Also, certain genes regulate how fast the body processes caffeine.

 

WTH? For realz ? Cool. I didn't know cordyceps had an adenosine mimetic. I didnt notice anything when I took it anyway. anyway. thats cool.

 

 

Anyone who feels unaffected by caffeine should take citicoline for a couple months and then see how caffeine effects them lol

[8bitmore]

 

Caffeine is an antagonist of inhibitory receptors (adenosine), which then increases other neurotransmission. I can pretty much block the stimulant effect by taking adenosine-agonists/mimetics like cordycepin (3'-deoxyadenosine) from Cordyceps or adenosine from Reishi. Also, certain genes regulate how fast the body processes caffeine.

 

WTH? For realz ? Cool. I didn't know cordyceps had an adenosine mimetic. I didnt notice anything when I took it anyway. anyway. thats cool.

 

 

Anyone who feels unaffected by caffeine should take citicoline for a couple months and then see how caffeine effects them lol

 

 

Hey, practical recommendation hidden in that bit of humour eh? Have you got personal experience of the effect of Citicoline vs Caffeine?

[scitris]

I think because of the mechanism of action of citicoline. cytidyin-5-diphoshpocholine is a metabolit in synthesis of neuronal-membranes like phosphatidylserine. It enhances the density of dopamine-receptors and sensitize them more. So after taking caffeine, you should feel it better.By this i mean the typcially dopaminergic properties like  motivation and concentration.

 

Edit: I made that experience too. I think that the problems that underlies the "i feel nothing from caffeine" are so plural and complex like the different motivations of any person on this board.

It could be that the mitochondrial energy is unsufficient to support the neurons in reacting properly to caffeine. It could be that your dopamine-receptors are not reacting well because of tolarance issues. 

Or maybe your adrenals are fatigued. Dehydrated, sleep deprived, deficiencies in vitamins, minerals, cofactors, ... and so on.  

 

 

Edited by scitris, 06 May 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[protoject]

 

 

Hey, practical recommendation hidden in that bit of humour eh? Have you got personal experience of the effect of Citicoline vs Caffeine?

 

 

Oh yeah! It's only anecdotal at best, but I took citicoline for a few months and it seems to have drastically improved my response to anything dopaminergic. As far as I am aware there is possibly a link between caffeine and increased dopaminergic activity.  Citicoline upregulates dopamine receptors.

 

If I'm wrong, it's considered a psychostimulant at best, so I'm sure it goes well with caffeine. (say, ever see those 5 hour energy shots that do have citicoline and caffeine in them ??? )

[scitris]

protoject. UMP and PS have made it even better

[normalizing]

Or maybe your adrenals are fatigued. Dehydrated, sleep deprived, deficiencies in vitamins, minerals, cofactors, ... and so on.  

 

 

 

 

its the adrenals. everyone else doesnt know what they are talking about

[TheFountain]

Caffeine is an antagonist of inhibitory receptors (adenosine), which then increases other neurotransmission. I can pretty much block the stimulant effect by taking adenosine-agonists/mimetics like cordycepin (3'-deoxyadenosine) from Cordyceps or adenosine from Reishi. Also, certain genes regulate how fast the body processes caffeine.

 

Not Genes, Enzymes. The CYP enzyme. 

Edited by TheFountain, 06 May 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[TheFountain]

It almost seems braggadocious when someone creates a thread about not being effected by a stimulant the way most are. 

 

What is the implication here? That you are strong for not being caffeine sensitive? For being able to handle 10 cups of coffee a day? That you're a 'winner' for this reason?

 

Why would this be the assumption? 

 

Have you considered there may be something wrong if you cannot feel the effect of caffeine? Not necessarily that it is a good thing?

 

When I was about 15 I smoked tons of weed, and never had any effect from it. I thought I was completely resistant to it. Then one day I suddenly felt really high. 

 

I cannot explain it, it just happened. Might have had to do with my sleeping habits at the time. Or any number of other variables. 

 

Point is don't brag about it like it's a good thing. Or like you're an amazing specimen for being able to tolerate that much caffeine. 

[normalizing]

^ lol are you ok? who is bragging? sensitive much? the guy who started the thread is worried and curious whats going on with his tolerance, how about RELAX

[pheanix997]

It almost seems braggadocious when someone creates a thread about not being effected by a stimulant the way most are. 

 

What is the implication here? That you are strong for not being caffeine sensitive? For being able to handle 10 cups of coffee a day? That you're a 'winner' for this reason?

 

Why would this be the assumption? 

 

Have you considered there may be something wrong if you cannot feel the effect of caffeine? Not necessarily that it is a good thing?

 

When I was about 15 I smoked tons of weed, and never had any effect from it. I thought I was completely resistant to it. Then one day I suddenly felt really high. 

 

I cannot explain it, it just happened. Might have had to do with my sleeping habits at the time. Or any number of other variables. 

 

Point is don't brag about it like it's a good thing. Or like you're an amazing specimen for being able to tolerate that much caffeine. 

Um, the thread is about the disappointing reality of NOT being effected by caffeine. I could only hope that one day I could have a mid-day coffee at work and get a little jolt in mental alertness. I envy those who do.

Edited by pheanix997, 06 May 2014 - 07:32 PM.

[BlueCloud]

 

 

 

Hey, practical recommendation hidden in that bit of humour eh? Have you got personal experience of the effect of Citicoline vs Caffeine?

 

 

Oh yeah! It's only anecdotal at best, but I took citicoline for a few months and it seems to have drastically improved my response to anything dopaminergic. As far as I am aware there is possibly a link between caffeine and increased dopaminergic activity.  Citicoline upregulates dopamine receptors.

 

If I'm wrong, it's considered a psychostimulant at best, so I'm sure it goes well with caffeine. (say, ever see those 5 hour energy shots that do have citicoline and caffeine in them ??? )

 

 

I've had exactly the same experience . Cdp-Choline greatly enhances effects of Tyrosine when I take it a few days before. I made a thread about it here : http://www.longecity...d-sulbutiamine/

[TheFountain]

 

It almost seems braggadocious when someone creates a thread about not being effected by a stimulant the way most are. 

 

What is the implication here? That you are strong for not being caffeine sensitive? For being able to handle 10 cups of coffee a day? That you're a 'winner' for this reason?

 

Why would this be the assumption? 

 

Have you considered there may be something wrong if you cannot feel the effect of caffeine? Not necessarily that it is a good thing?

 

When I was about 15 I smoked tons of weed, and never had any effect from it. I thought I was completely resistant to it. Then one day I suddenly felt really high. 

 

I cannot explain it, it just happened. Might have had to do with my sleeping habits at the time. Or any number of other variables. 

 

Point is don't brag about it like it's a good thing. Or like you're an amazing specimen for being able to tolerate that much caffeine. 

Um, the thread is about the disappointing reality of NOT being effected by caffeine. I could only hope that one day I could have a mid-day coffee at work and get a little jolt in mental alertness. I envy those who do.

 

 

Well, who doesn't wish they could enjoy the taste of coffee all day long without feeling completely wired? I find your preference for the stimulant effect of caffeine a little off center, as most with caffeine anxiety wish for the complete opposite.

 

Does theobromine effect you similarly, or shall I say not effect you similarly? 

[pheanix997]

 

 

It almost seems braggadocious when someone creates a thread about not being effected by a stimulant the way most are. 

 

What is the implication here? That you are strong for not being caffeine sensitive? For being able to handle 10 cups of coffee a day? That you're a 'winner' for this reason?

 

Why would this be the assumption? 

 

Have you considered there may be something wrong if you cannot feel the effect of caffeine? Not necessarily that it is a good thing?

 

When I was about 15 I smoked tons of weed, and never had any effect from it. I thought I was completely resistant to it. Then one day I suddenly felt really high. 

 

I cannot explain it, it just happened. Might have had to do with my sleeping habits at the time. Or any number of other variables. 

 

Point is don't brag about it like it's a good thing. Or like you're an amazing specimen for being able to tolerate that much caffeine. 

Um, the thread is about the disappointing reality of NOT being effected by caffeine. I could only hope that one day I could have a mid-day coffee at work and get a little jolt in mental alertness. I envy those who do.

 

 

Well, who doesn't wish they could enjoy the taste of coffee all day long without feeling completely wired? I find your preference for the stimulant effect of caffeine a little off center, as most with caffeine anxiety wish for the complete opposite.

 

Does theobromine effect you similarly, or shall I say not effect you similarly? 

 

It isn't all that bizarre when you consider that the person seeking the stimulation usually feels mentally sluggish, unfocused, and tired. Obviously nobody would want the bodily anxiety (heart palpitations, jitters) that many get from caffeine - so I hear what you're saying - but the mental alertness and "wakefulness" is something worth striving for. 

I've never taken theobromine, but I'll look into it .